Spoiler Discussion Thread

[kismet]

So far the spoilers have spoiled nothing that we didn't already know. I'm gonna just sit here still hoping for a good season & ignore the spoilers until they actually spoil something in a good way.

 

2 random thoughts from the spoilers though -

1. SA directing an episode has potential, but I get why logistically it would be a nightmare for him considering how much time he has to spend already in prep/filming for the role. I liked the eps that were directed by Zachary Levi in Chuck but you could feel the absence of his character in those episodes at times. They would need to make an episode that had OQ in "coma" like state to make it possible for him to not be a realistic part of the action. But perhaps they could find just the right plot line for it.

 

2. Sloan from Alias should be an inspiration for how to do a multi-season villain. The writers should be taking notes. I love Barrowman, but he does seem to factor too much into every plotline which is a detriment to the overall story arcs. Sloan's character never felt like he was taking over the show. Perhaps they can find a better balance for him this season, not that they can leave him in NP for some episodes & have him not be part of everything.

[jay741982]

According to DR Diggle and Felicity are having a BIG season Woohoo!!

[BkWurm1]

Thank you Ramsey's big mouth!!

[jay741982]

Thank you Ramsey's big mouth!!

For real I'm optimistic that Felicity is FINALLY getting a big storyline and Diggle as well

Edited July 4, 2015 by jay741982

[olicityfan25]

Awesome! They deserve it. Especially the fans. We deserve it for being so loyal.

[TrueMyth]

Don't get me wrong, I'm super excited at the prospect of a Felicity & Diggle heavy, character-driven season 4... but do we know that David has heard more about season 4?  When do the other cast members besides Stephen get their 4x01 scripts?  I know it should be soon, but do they already have them?

 

I hope we know who they cast for Felicity's Dad by ComiCon.  I think the wait past then would kill me!

[BkWurm1]

In reality my optimism that a "big" storyline for Diggle or Felicity will actually translate into a lot of focus and deserved attention is pretty low.  Thea got the same promise and she was marginalized and made a pawn in her own journey.  She came out nice in the end but it was a mess getting there.  That's more of where my expectations are but even having it confirmed that Felicity's dad is definitely part of the HIVE storyline is a big deal to me. 

[dtissagirl]

Scripts for 401 and 402 have been distributed, according to this person who works in Arrow/LoT post-production:

http://twitter.com/LegendsPostProd/status/616645549412913152

http://twitter.com/LegendsPostProd/status/616649342825267200

So yeah, it is possible that any/all of the actors have read them.

[tv echo]

The following quote is from a new EW article that I just posted in the LoT forum...

“They’re screwups,” Klemmer says. “Instead of tiptoeing through history, they’re plodding through it, leaving their footprints and fingerprints and constantly having to wonder whether they’re going to screw the future up rather than fix it… It’s going to be total madness.”
*  *  *
Ultimately, Klemmer teases that these lesser-known DC Comics characters won’t just use time to fight crime and stop Savage—they’ll be tempted to meddle with it for their own gain, without thinking through the consequences.

 

“Who can resist the urge to correct the past or to investigate the future?” he says. “The idea of traveling through time has a caper quality to it, and that’s what we’re looking forward to. Yes, there will be the big ‘try to stop Vandal Savage’ [plot], but people will inevitably become diverted on their little side missions and when people are trying to fix their own timeline, that’s when you really start screwing things up.”

 

Since Arrow, Flash and LoT share the same universe, I'm concerned about these time travel ramifications affecting the Arrow storyline.

 

What if the EPs use it to completely change things that have happened on Arrow so far?  They can essentially rewrite the past three seasons and fix past 'mistakes' in order to proceed with the story that they want to tell going forward (regardless if it is inconsistent with what's happened in the current past).

Edited July 4, 2015 by tv echo

[jay741982]

I could have sworn they said the time travel stuff wouldn't affect Arrow so we have to wait and see

[tv echo]

IIRC, when Barry traveled back in time in the Flash S1 finale, there was concern that it would affect what happened on Arrow's S3 finale - and MG or someone said that it wouldn't affect Arrow's finale.  I don't think any promises were made for next season.

 

Regarding Diggle and Felicity having HIVE-related stories in S4 - I'm glad, but I'm not convinced that that will translate into a lot of independent screentime (as opposed to background screentime).  I think the HIVE stories will primarily involve Oliver vs. DD.  

 

Also, given that BC action figures have shown up in at least two Arrow writers' tweets, I have a feeling that S4 will be a big year for Laurel as the BC.

Edited July 4, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

I don't know about the DR spoilers. A few people have said that he didn't say that. Hopefully comic con will clear things up.

I'm not concerned with the time travel thing. It would be to difficult to pick and choose what it would effect. It would be suspect if everything gets turned on its head, but Laurel still becomes Black Canary or a newly superior Black Canary. Basically there are certain things they wouldn't risk.

Edited July 4, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[apinknightmare]

Since Arrow, Flash and LoT share the same universe, I'm concerned about these time travel ramifications affecting the Arrow storyline.

 

What if the EPs use it to completely change things that have happened on Arrow so far?  They can essentially rewrite the past three seasons and fix past 'mistakes' in order to proceed with the story that they want to tell going forward (regardless if it is inconsistent with what's happened in the current past).

 

If they did something like that, they should prepare themselves for Arrow to take a major ratings dive. Nothing would piss people off more than to find out that three years worth of investment in characters and (good or bad) storyline have been erased, especially when the idea of time travel hasn't even been mentioned on Arrow. 

 

There are ways of dealing with time travel in the Arrow verse. The Arrow we're watching can exist in its own timeline that is unaltered by events of other timelines, or our characters can be aware of timeline shifts (in the event of crossovers into other timelines). Or the EPs could just ignore the fact that there are other timelines happening in the universe. 

 

Given the fact that Oliver and Felicity return from their road trip in the premiere (based on what tidbits we've gotten in interviews), the road trip still happened despite the singularity over in Central City, so I'm guessing multiple timelines aren't going to be an issue here. I suppose they could introduce time travel in the middle of the season, but I'm not too worried about it. 

Edited July 4, 2015 by apinknightmare

[catrox14]

Thanks for giving us back Sara and all but now they are going to make her less heroic than she was after going through all the shit she did and becoming a hero already? Yes I know Crazy Sara because Lazarus Pits. Ugh I really hate that.

[jay741982]

IIRC, when Barry traveled back in time in the Flash S1 finale, there was concern that it would affect what happened on Arrow's S3 finale - and MG or someone said that it wouldn't affect Arrow's finale.  I don't think any promises were made for next season.

 

Regarding Diggle and Felicity having HIVE-related stories in S4 - I'm glad, but I'm not convinced that that will translate into a lot of independent screentime (as opposed to background screentime).  I think the HIVE stories will primarily involve Oliver vs. DD.  

 

Also, given that BC action figures have shown up in at least two Arrow writers' tweets, I have a feeling that S4 will be a big year for Laurel as the BC.

UGH to Possiblity of fucking Laurel having a big year.

[DrSpaceman10]

There was a post on SA's Facebook a couple of weeks ago that seemed to imply (to me at least) that LoT might be taking place in a different timeline/universe than Arrow.

 

I can't find it at the moment, but basically someone asked if Oliver is never going to wear the Arrow costume after Season Three (as has been stated by SA), why was he wearing it in the LoT trailer? It was also asked if Oliver wearing the Arrow costume was a mistake or an Easter egg. SA replied that it wasn't a mistake that Oliver was wearing the Arrow costume, nor was it an Easter egg. 

 

This made me think that LoT's timeline/universe is possibly separate from Arrow's.

[apinknightmare]

I wonder if the time/timeline Arrow's in is the sort of placeholder for the LoT characters? A marker in time that they start from before they travel to wherever to do whatever? Then they can just go back for crossovers and whatnot. And with The Flash's multiverse whatever going on, perhaps the focus will still be on the secondary timeline that we've been watching all year? So, the time traveling and multiverses will take place outside of the main timeline, which is the one the people in Starling City are living in?

[AyChihuahua]

There is going to be a colossal amount of handwaving required to get through time travel shenanigans.  

[dtissagirl]

I can't find it at the moment, but basically someone asked if Oliver is never going to wear the Arrow costume after Season Three (as has been stated by SA), why was he wearing it in the LoT trailer? It was also asked if Oliver wearing the Arrow costume was a mistake or an Easter egg. SA replied that it wasn't a mistake that Oliver was wearing the Arrow costume, nor was it an Easter egg. 

 

This made me think that LoT's timeline/universe is possibly separate from Arrow's.

 

That post made me think that the LoT promo was just a concept thing for the CW and advertisers, and that maybe none of that footage will be part of the new show.

 

They can also always fuck up the timeline in LoT to the max, and then fix it by the end of the same episode, so it's self-contained there. They can even do it all crossover-like, lookie, there's a ~special episode~ wherein Sara doesn't go on the Gambit, and boom, somehow Oliver ends up rescued by Nyssa an in the LoA. And then they change it back by the end of the episode, because messing up timelines is ~a really bad thing~.

 

And if something's permanently changed, they can keep it to the stuff that doesn't affect Arrow and/or Flash.

[TrueMyth]

While I hope any LoT timeline shenanigans stay far away from most of Arrow, I really wouldn't mind a "It's a Wonderful Life" type episode that lets the actors play different versions of their characters, as long as things are reset before the end of the episode.  I don't want a whole bunch of gimmick type episodes, but they can be excellent for keeping actors happy (by stretching their acting) and giving new insight into the show.   Sara not going on the Gambit could be a very interesting AU.  For example, Felicity would probably still be in IT, working under Isabel's company,so very unhappy.  I would hope to see such an episode on Arrow.  If they do other AU exploration on LoT, it should really only be with a single cameo.

[apinknightmare]

I actually don't think LoT will be that much of an issue. Since they're traveling through time to stop Vandal Savage, seems like they could stop whatever future event they're trying to prevent without any effect at all (obviously, since it's in the future), and if they travel back in time, then they'll stop whatever threat was going to mess things up and then the timeline continues as it already did. There could be an ep or two where they get a taste of what would've happened if they hadn't succeeded, and then somehow figure out how to right the timeline.

 

I think The Flash is the main issue, but the easiest explanation for that is the Arrow people are mostly unaffected by timeline shifts since they're ignorant to the fact that time has changed and make the same decisions they already did. The original Flash timeline was already messed up (since Barry becoming The Flash was supposed to happen later), and nothing happened to the Arrow timeline, apart from Barry becoming part of it. Whatever multiverses Barry spawned in the finale of The Flash can be dealt with over there (again, since people on Arrow would still be on their main timeline and ignorant of the others), although I suppose it could be played for laughs it the timelines somehow blur, like with two Barrys showing up in Starling or whatever. 

 

Not that the EPs will necessarily handle it that well, but I don't think it has to be an issue.

[AyChihuahua]

Let's game this out: if Sara didn't go on the Gambit, all of the S1 Fyers flashbacks would still happen.  Oliver would still be captured by Ivo.  He'd probably still be rescued by Slade and Shado.  Slade wouldn't end up with Mirakuru wo Sara's assistance, but he'd still be burned, so he'd die.  Without having to go for the Mirakuru, maybe Shado and Oliver would just hide out on the island, Ivo would find the Mirakuru and leave.  Would Amanda Waller still come for Oliver?  I've never understood her interest in him in the first place, but she seemed irritated that he unintentionally foiled her plans, so maybe?  So Oliver and Shado in HK as operatives, Oliver would still be her assassin, but he'd feel less guilt without Sara's involvement, he probably wouldn't feel responsible for Slade going bad and Shado wouldn't have died, so maybe he'd just go bad for real?  Although he'd still have his daddy issues.  I don't know, overall I don't think Sara's absence would affect things until S2 present day, because no Slade Wilson would change everything that season.

 

They should definitely do an It's a Wonderful Life episode with Oliver, maybe that he really did die on the Gambit, or that he never went and was still a vapid SC party boy.  

[TrueMyth]

Let's game this out: if Sara didn't go on the Gambit, all of the S1 Fyers flashbacks would still happen.  Oliver would still be captured by Ivo.  He'd probably still be rescued by Slade and Shado.  Slade wouldn't end up with Mirakuru wo Sara's assistance, but he'd still be burned, so he'd die.  Without having to go for the Mirakuru, maybe Shado and Oliver would just hide out on the island, Ivo would find the Mirakuru and leave.  Would Amanda Waller still come for Oliver?  I've never understood her interest in him in the first place, but she seemed irritated that he unintentionally foiled her plans, so maybe?  So Oliver and Shado in HK as operatives, Oliver would still be her assassin, but he'd feel less guilt without Sara's involvement, he probably wouldn't feel responsible for Slade going bad and Shado wouldn't have died, so maybe he'd just go bad for real?  Although he'd still have his daddy issues.  I don't know, overall I don't think Sara's absence would affect things until S2 present day, because no Slade Wilson would change everything that season.

 

They should definitely do an It's a Wonderful Life episode with Oliver, maybe that he really did die on the Gambit, or that he never went and was still a vapid SC party boy.  

Yeah, IDK the Waller grab/interest in Oliver.  Things go really, really strange without the LoA, though (I know we still have the Malcolm connection), but I do like the idea of Oliver being rescued by LoA instead of Sara.  Honestly, doesn't Shado make the better Hong Kong operative?  Unless Waller really did already know, eight months in advance, that she would need someone to break the biometrics at QC.  I think it comes down to how different they want to set up the cast.  Did Oliver ever come home?  Actually, I could see him still in the LoA, but Moira gets word to Ra's and Oliver is sent to take out Malcolm's Undertaking.  We know the LoA does like sleeper agents, so they could even let him return to his past life at the start of season 1.

 

I guess it becomes a question of how different they want things to be for ALL actors.  If Oliver is working as a vigilante and as Oliver Queen, he will bring in Diggle and Felicity at some point, which is too similar to known history.  I think, for the full "It's a Wonderful Life" flavor, you need to have Oliver NOT return.

 

No one stops Malcolm's plan until later, he throws Moira under the bus so she is still arrested and the acquitted, but Isabel Rochev moves in on QC in the interim.  Mirakuru army never happens, which means Anna never dies and Ray Palmer never works on the ATOM suit.  Also, Carrie Cutter never imprints on the Arrow.

 

Oh, also, it would only be mentioned in passing... but Barry might not become the Flash because he doesn't stay in (or maybe even visit ) Starling, so he's not late to the Accelerator opening, so he's not in his lab.  I guess he could still become the Flash though, since Firestorm was created at Star Labs, or he is "always late" so something else gets in his way.

Edited July 4, 2015 by TrueMyth

[statsgirl]

I'm choosing to remain optimistic that the time travel stuff won't affect Arrow too much because that's such a well-established  verse that there wouldn't be much point in messing with the timeline.  While I'd personally prefer Moira to be alive, if they're casting a friend who sounds like Moira V2, I doubt they're going to revive her.  Slade is still alive but Isabel wasn't such a fan favourite that it would be worth it to make her alive again, and while I love Tommy not only is his time past, Colin Donnell has two new shows.

 

 

In reality my optimism that a "big" storyline for Diggle or Felicity will actually translate into a lot of focus and deserved attention is pretty low.  Thea got the same promise and she was marginalized and made a pawn in her own journey.  She came out nice in the end but it was a mess getting there.  That's more of where my expectations are but even having it confirmed that Felicity's dad is definitely part of the HIVE storyline is a big deal to me. 

Yeah.  We already knew that they were going to do the HIVE storyline and a story about Felicity's father who is running from the law so the odds that he would be involved in HIVE were pretty high.

 

The problem is that this show does storylines well (Roy, Thea in 3B), and they do storylines that take up a lot of time (Laurel, Ray, Malcolm, Ra's) but the two usually don't intersect.

 

So I'm looking forward to the Diggle and Felicity storylines in s4 but I'm not holding my breath that they will be the main stories for the season.

 

I'm keeping my expectations low after last season. All I ask is for a Diggle plot that's more than 2 episodes, and for Oliver and Felicity not to break up or even fight a lot.

[AyChihuahua]

It seems like Sara's LOA rescue depends on the Ivo situation.  Did Nyssa rescue her from another piece of floating debris post-Amazo, or did she end up back on the island alone, where Nyssa found her?  The Amazo wasn't all that far from shore, so the island seems likely.  If from floating debris, well the Amazo being blown up wouldn't have happened (probably) without Sara.  (Also, none of the Bratva stuff would happen, because Ivo would have kept Anatoly to experiment on, although I think he and Oliver would have still met [prochnost]).  Maybe both Shado and Oliver end up with the LOA, except the reason Sara joined was at least in part that she was dying.  It doesn't generally seem like the LOA MAKES people join (Oliver was the only person we ever saw forced/brainwashed into joining), and Shado and Oliver were doing just fine on the island before Ivo showed up.  Maybe Nyssa and her minions would just kill them both, but overall I don't see any reason they would join.  I mean, at that point Oliver was still a fairly naive guy, especially if all the Slade drama didn't happen I can't see him voluntarily joining a group of assassins, and Shado was a sweetheart.

[dtissagirl]

Let's game this out: if Sara didn't go on the Gambit, all of the S1 Fyers flashbacks would still happen.

Not necessarily. Multiverse theory proposes that even small changes to the timeline can affect it in drastic ways. Bufferfly Effect and all. If Sara's not on the Gambit, Oliver might've been elsewhere in the boat when it sunk, and he could've been thrown overboard a different way, or caught by a different current, and ended up alone somewhere else, and not with his father and the other dude on the lifeboat.

I mean, Fyers would still be on the island, but you take Oliver out of that bedroom at the time the boat capsized, and that's it: an entirely new reality can potentially happen for him.

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, he could have just drowned or that boat crew guy could have ended up with the gun and shot him or something.  But I'm going with tv show version of time change here, because otherwise there are probably millions of variables and it's just impossible to speculate.

 

Or ooh, maybe if Sara didn't want to go he wouldn't have gone either, bc it's probably less fun to go on a long boat trip with just your dad, v. a hot chick.

Edited July 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

They could do a nod to the Flashpoint comics, wherein Thomas Wayne is Batman. Sara doesn't go, Oliver dies, Robert Queen ends up on the island, and becomes the Starling City vigilante.

[TrueMyth]

He could have still taken a girl with him on his "escape moving in with Laurel" trip.  Just not her sister.

[catahoulamama]

There is going to be a colossal amount of handwaving required to get through time travel shenanigans.  

OMG, THIS! The EPs can't handle continuity in real time, or non-time travel-ish conditions. (See: Roy left in a smoldering heap after being electrocuted by Ray while Oliver and Ray head off to grab a beer or whatever...LOL) I have VERY little confidence in this time travel stuff boding well for Flash and Arrow. Do we really believe they'd resist the temptation to get a "do over" on some things by using the ability to alter the timeline, or just try something different than what they've done so far? I don't, and there is not enough handwaving in the world to cover the absolute sh*tstorm that would generate.

[apinknightmare]

Do we really believe they'd resist the temptation to get a "do over" on some things by using the ability to alter the timeline, or just try something different than what they've done so far? I don't, and there is not enough handwaving in the world to cover the absolute sh*tstorm that would generate.

 

I don't think they'll be able to resist temptation at all, but I don't think the change in timeline will be permanent. I think it would happen in an ep near the launch of LoT and they'll lead us to believe it's permanent in a cliffhanger-like manner, but things will go back to the way they were.

[Sakura12]

If Sara wasn't with Ivo, Oliver would've been shot in the head. Sara saved him from that fate by reminding Ivo they needed him for some reason. 

 

Nyssa said she found Sara on Lian Yu, so she made it back to the island, where I guess she was near death. Which also fits with Sara saying she died on that island. We also don't know how long she was on the island before Nyssa found her. 

Edited July 4, 2015 by Sakura12

[Delphi]

Nyssa said she found Sara on Lian Yu, so she made it back to the island, where I guess she was near death. Which also fits with Sara saying she died on that island. We also don't know how long she was on the island before Nyssa found her.

Oh look at that. Flashbacks I'd actually want to watch that will never be filmed.

[Balaclava]

Why was Nyssa on Lian Yu? Was it ever mentioned what she was doing there? 

[Sakura12]

Everyone went to Lian Yu like it was Grand Central station. It was the busiest deserted island ever. 

Edited July 4, 2015 by Sakura12

[wingster55]

It's highly likely that they had heard of Slade and were looking to recruit him.

[AyChihuahua]

If Sara wasn't with Ivo, Oliver would've been shot in the head. Sara saved him from that fate by reminding Ivo they needed him for some reason. 

 

Nyssa said she found Sara on Lian Yu, so she made it back to the island, where I guess she was near death. Which also fits with Sara saying she died on that island. We also don't know how long she was on the island before Nyssa found her. 

I don't know, Ivo really did need Oliver to show them where the graves were, and Ivo was a bright guy.  There's a decent chance he would have thought of that without her, especially without the distraction of what had just happened with Sara flipping on Oliver.

 

When did Nyssa specifically say she found Sara on Lian Yu?  In Heir to the Demon she just said she found her near death.  Sara could have ended up floating on a piece of the Amazo out in the ocean again.  Did Nyssa say that in an S3 episode I missed?

Edited July 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

Ra's told Quentin that Nyssa found Sara in Lian Yu.

[apinknightmare]

I think the only reason why Nyssa was on Lian Yu was so that Ra's could tell Quentin that Nyssa found her there so Quentin could get upset at Oliver for never telling him that Sara actually made it to the island. 

[AyChihuahua]

Ra's told Quentin that Nyssa found Sara in Lian Yu.

That is so weird.  I don't get at all why the LOA would be going to Lian Yu, especially at that point, after Fyers.  Okay, so Nyssa shows up on Lian Yu and finds Oliver and Shado instead of Sara...I still don't see why she'd offer or they'd accept joining the LOA (maybe Shado, she was a badass, but she wouldn't accept).

[quarks]

It's all part of a plan by the still secret master manipulator behind Arrow, who has decided to force every character in the Arrowverse to head to Lian Yu so he or she can study the characters in close quarters, understanding them in order to defeat them in the ULTIMATE FINAL BATTLE BETWEEN MASTER ARROW MANIPULATOR AND THE ARROW REGULAR AND MOST POPULAR SUPPORTING CHARACTERS!

 

That, or the League of Assassins was thinking of establishing a luxury hotel property there since business was doing so well in Nanda Parbat. Nyssa was sent specifically to get a sense of lighting conditions so the LoA would have a sense of how many candles they needed to buy.

[Genki]

That, or the League of Assassins was thinking of establishing a luxury hotel property there since business was doing so well in Nanda Parbat. Nyssa was sent specifically to get a sense of lighting conditions so the LoA would have a sense of how many candles they needed to buy.

 

 Or maybe tiki torches this would have been their island themed resort.

[AyChihuahua]

You guys are crazy and hilarious and I love you.

[BkWurm1]

Over in the LoT media thread  is posted one of the articles in that special Comic-con TV Guide edition.  It talks about LoT but also quoted Berlanti as saying "The fall season is very much going to be building to this."    The "this" of course is Rip Hunter showing up and forming a team to fight Vandal Savage  so if there were any doubts about them using The Arrow or The Flash to set up the other series, well, leave them at the door now.   

Edited July 7, 2015 by BkWurm1

[tv echo]

BkWurm1 is right.  I just posted a scan of the second page of that TV Guide SDCC issue in the LoT forum here ...

 

Full GB quote (which began on the first page and ended on the second page): "'The fall season is very much going to be a buildup to this,' says Berlanti, explaining how a Flash-Arrow crossover planned for late this year will tee up Legends' midseason launch."

 

Also from GB:  "'[E]ach show will stand on its own,' so fans won't need to follow Legends, Arrow, and The Flash at the same time.  But those who do will be treated to plenty of surprises."

 

From AK: "'What's great about having so many different shows is that we have so much real estate, people can pop up in other places,' teases Kreisberg.  'You're going to see some surprising faces on all of the shows... and not just the main casts.  Secondary characters, some of whom you may have thought you'd never see again.'"

Edited July 7, 2015 by tv echo

[Chasity]

That GB quote makes it seem like the set up for LoT is only going to happen during the Arrow/Flash crossover, not the entire first half of the season. 

[tv echo]

Or the cross-over could be the culmination of seeds planted in Arrow and Flash during the earlier fall episodes.  We already know that Firestorm will show up in the first episode of Flash.  We know that Ray is returning to Arrow S4.  I suspect that Sara will be resurrected on Arrow prior to the cross-over so that the reactions by her family and friends can be dealt with.  So the cross-over could just be when the LoT team-up starts happening - or when Rip Hunter first appears.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm just thrilled, thrilled, that Ray, my least-favorite character on any of these shows, will be back on Arrow.  Maybe he can tell Rip all about his high IQ and how the poor wimmuns' brains don't quite work right when cute boys are involved.

[Delphi]

I'm actually going to try to actively forget how bad Ray was in the beginning because I actually started to enjoy him after he was integrated into the group. I'm going into season 4 with hope.

All things considered I'd rather have Roy back though.

[tv echo]

I have a feeling that Roy is going to show up on LoT.  Heck, with time travel, we could even see Tommy show up on LoT.