Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Pyramid]

 

Genuine question here: Are the showrunners really in love with Laurel? Because if so, they have an odd way of showing it.

It's a good point. If you went by their interviews then you'd think she was made from awesome, but if you went by what was shown on screen, well, different story. It's like they've made a really fancy cake with all fancy white frosting but when you cut into it it's filled with crap.

Maybe they're trying to drive her insane with random praise and punishment.

 

On  a serious note, what the hell must KC be thinking? Has she actually noticed the disconnect between what's being said and what's being shown. From her interviews it would appear not, but she can't that thick can she? But then I suppose it would be bad form for an actor to speak out about the writing.

[KirkB]

It's a good point. If you went by their interviews then you'd think she was made from awesome, but if you went by what was shown on screen, well, different story. It's like they've made a really fancy cake with all fancy white frosting but when you cut into it it's filled with crap.

 

 

   They could really love the character, and have big plans for her, but not actually know how to to write her, and as a result KC doesn't know what do to with the role most of the time. Alternatively. KC's acting ability may be limiting what she can do with the role so they have had to tone down or change part of the narrative, but still really adore the character.

[Pyramid]

 

They could really love the character, and have big plans for her, but not actually know how to to write her, and as a result KC doesn't know what do to with the role most of the time.

The problem is that they've already shown with Felicity, Sara and Nissa that they can write good female characters. Which points to KC, and yet there's some glaring inconsistencies in the writing for her, or at least between what they say about here and what they write for her.

It's starting to look deliberate!

[catrox14]

The problem is that they've already shown with Felicity, Sara and Nissa that they can write good female characters. Which points to KC, and yet there's some glaring inconsistencies in the writing for her, or at least between what they say about here and what they write for her.

It's starting to look deliberate!

 

Taking this to the Laurel thread

[icandigit]

http://tvline.com/2014/05/27/once-upon-a-time-season-4-emma-hook-romance-spoilers/

 

 

Do you have any scoop on Arrow and Amanda Waller? That last scene of the season finale got us really curious, and Season 3 is too far away. –Ana
I asked Stephen Amell how this new stretch of apparently Waller-centric flashbacks will inform the coming season, and the way he put it is this: “Oliver lost a lot of his humanity in those five years [away from Starling City], so as we see that continue to happen it in the flashbacks, we will see how much of his humanity he wants to get back in the present.”

 

I'm intrigued.

Edited May 28, 2014 by icandigit

[BkWurm1]

“Oliver lost a lot of his humanity in those five years [away from Starling City], so as we see that continue to happen it in the flashbacks, we will see how much of his humanity he wants to get back in the present.”

 

The OQ that showed up in Starling City at the end of his five year stint was IMO far more emotionally closed off than the one that we just saw taking down Slade on the Amazo.  Dare I say that what Waller puts him through is in it's own way worse than the first two years on the island?  Perhaps not danger wise but in a morally compromising way?  Forcing him to do things he feels is wrong or unjustified.  It would be interesting if as the series goes on the present day Oliver becomes the more humane and happy version.  I expect season three to have an Oliver that is not so very different from who he is today, personality wise even if he in the past will still be willing to kill. 

 

Nothing good happened in his five years while he was gone so I have to imagine that he's out of the pan and into the fire next season. 

[KirkB]

I just hope they cut out, or at least change, the opening monologue. It's pretty clear now he didn't spend 5 years just on that island.

[quarks]

The first season had several hints that Oliver didn't spend all five years on that island - the biggie being the otherwise completely dropped plot point where he tells Diggle that he can be absolutely sure about the list and that it's not just random jottings from his father.  I do hope the writers remember that - I always wanted to know why Oliver was so sure.

[Password]

@quarks What do you reckon are those hints?

[Morrigan2575]

One was when he told Diggle that he got a message from his father that explained what The List was, the other was the fact that he rose to a rank of Captain in the Bratva and had actual contacts in the Russian Mob.

[Password]

Why do you reckon his misses Isabel Rochev's name on the list? Seemed like such an oversight.

[quarks]

It was mostly in the "Trust But Verify" episode - the one where Diggle's military boss shows up. Oliver says the boss is on the list. Diggle says it's just a list. They have a big fight about it and Oliver says that he got a message from his father about it.  

 

The tattoos are the other big hint, although a few people speculated that just possibly an evil tattoo artist would be parachuting down to the island in season three or four, or that he just got a couple of tattoos in Beijing while getting his identification straightened out and starting the trip back to Starling City.

 

I'm at a loss to explain the Isabel Rochev thing. It was one reason I was kinda hoping Isabel would turn out to be good or at least grey, since that would have been an interesting coda to the whole list thing.

[Password]

So the message is like what Tony Starc got from his dad in Iron Man. His dad would've had a lot of faith in his playboy son because he didn't know he'd die on that ship.

[icandigit]

In that scene I thought Oliver might have been lying to Diggle to get him off his back. Not that Oliver would ever lie. But that scene and the bratva thing did throw off the 5 years thing.

[Morrigan2575]

The tattoos are the other big hint, although a few people speculated that just possibly an evil tattoo artist would be parachuting down to the island in season three or four, or that he just got a couple of tattoos in Beijing while getting his identification straightened out and starting the trip back to Starling City.

 

I found it utterly stupid that they had Slade give Oliver the Shado Dragon tattoo.  I always said the Tats were a clear indication he was off the island at some point.\

 

Why do you reckon his misses Isabel Rochev's name on the list? Seemed like such an oversight.

 

That's totally on the EPs they knew the name was in the list they were even questioned about it in early S2 when it was announced that Summer Glau was cast to play the character.  They even said it wasn't forgotten and it would be addressed and then it got ignored...like so much other stuff in S2.

[writersblock51]

Isabel's name on the list was definitely dropped but I don't know how important it ultimately was.  If Felicity had somehow transcribed the contents of the list into a digital format, for cross reference purposes or overal FYI stuff, then Isabel would have been flagged from the get go.  Felicity's instincts were to distrust her because of taking over the company.  We don't know why Isabel's name was on the list but it's not hard to make some assumptions - Robert Queen knew he'd had an affair with her, knew she was a bright business person and probably figured out that she was dangerous because he didn't choose to leave his family to be with her.  And, obviously, Moira knew about her - whether from seeing her name on the list OR knowing about the affair. 

 

But Oliver and his team abandoned the list and Moira never told Oliver why she disliked Isabel so much.

 

In both cases, the show could have done things differently.  Isabel was a great idea at first then they didn't know what to do with her.  They admitted that as much. 

The show really needs to work better on balancing story lines and following through with characters.  Continuity is also a weak link.

[Password]

I would agree that Diggle and Felicity forgot, but it seems like such an oversight for Oliver to forget. That little book was his end all be all for quite a while. I wouldn't have been surprised if he had it memorised.

[Morrigan2575]

We don't know why Isabel's name was on the list but it's not hard to make some assumptions - Robert Queen knew he'd had an affair with her, knew she was a bright business person and probably figured out that she was dangerous because he didn't choose to leave his family to be with her.  And, obviously, Moira knew about her - whether from seeing her name on the list OR knowing about the affair.

 

Except the people on the list weren't people that were potentially dangerous or people that Robert had affairs with and might hold personal grudges.  The people on the list were people who had done legitimately bad/illegal things in Starling City, stuff that was directly/indirectly tied to The Undertaking (IIRC).  So Isabel being on The List and having that totally dropped is (to me) a sign of one of the big issues with Arrow S2.

 

It's like in 2.05 when Sara asks about Slade...the question implies that she doesn't hate or fear Slade or that she took part in a mission to kill Slade (thus leading to her second death).  The back half totally dropped so much of what was set up in the first 9 episodes that I can't help but think they changed plans.

[Danny Franks]

 

It's like in 2.05 when Sara asks about Slade...the question implies that she doesn't hate or fear Slade or that she took part in a mission to kill Slade (thus leading to her second death).  The back half totally dropped so much of what was set up in the first 9 episodes that I can't help but think they changed plans.

 

I have to say that I think that's subjective. Because when I watched that scene, I thought that they were implying that Slade had something to do with the 'deaths' of her and Oliver, on the island. She goes directly from "I thought you were dead too" to "what happened to Slade?". I detected some vitriol in her voice when she mentioned him, but wasn't sure whether it was hatred of Slade or anger at Oliver. My perspective now is that, as soon as they decided to bring Sara back and have her 'die' on the island, they decided that Slade was responsible. That much, I think was planned out.

 

The tattoo? Yeah, that was dumb. That smacks of someone saying, 'oh crap, what about Oliver's tattoo that matches Shado's?' at some point, so they shoehorned in the bizarre idea of Slade having Oliver tattooed with a somehow identical design. Which Oliver would never be able to see. Hardly the most brutal reminder, is it? Definitely revisionist, after they decided to fridge Shado in service of the Oliver vs. Slade dynamic.

[bluebonnet]

Didn't Oliver burn a couple of pages from his dad's book before he realized it was actually a list?  I know with Moira's book we were supposed to think these two things were exactly alike.  But Moira might have acquired her book after Robert's death when I suppose she was then brought into the fold.  Robert's book might have been slightly different if he added his own names.  But still, I wouldn't think Isabel would be mentioned because Robert apparently only knew her as a person he had an affair with and not some criminal.  She was someone who was 'evil' for corporations because she was ruthless, but not exactly criminal.  The criminal stuff didn't come until after she met Slade, I thought. 

[Password]

But that would be strange for her to be in the book. Wasn't her name spotted in s1? Robert Queen must have known something about Isabel for her to be in the book. I doubt he'd put the names of his flings in the book, regardless of how serious. Unless he realised what he had done would bite him in the behind in a big way.

[bluebonnet]

Oooh, I just looked at screencaps because I was so confused about what y'all were talking about.  Yeah, definitely on the list.  I wonder if they are going to edit her name out in future DVD releases.  Is that even possible?  Because a random affair shouldn't have been in the book and her inclusion in The List should have been mentioned.  Was it ever mentioned that she was on the list or was it just ignored?  I was pretty underwhelmed by Isabel's motivation so I ignored a lot of her storyline and just spent the time drooling over Summer Glau and her hair. 

[Password]

Unless they have a master plan to bring her back from the dead, I don't see how they could incorporate her. I know Stephen Amell said the list will be back in s3 but who knows what they'll do with it.

[BumpSetSpike]

 

Unless they have a master plan to bring her back from the dead, I don't see how they could incorporate her. I know Stephen Amell said the list will be back in s3 but who knows what they'll do with it.

 

Amell said that it would be back, but he wasn't clear if was going to be in flashbacks or present day.

[abhi]

Somebody tweeted to Geoff Johns asking whether Lady Shiva would make an appearance on Arrow and Johns has tweeted that Andrew Kreisberg may know with a smiley face. So it might mean that DC has allowed the use of the character of Lady Shiva and it is up to the EPs as to when they will introduce the character in Season 3.

 

https://twitter.com/geoffjohns/status/473159995698081792

[Sakura12]

She'll probably be used to train Laurel. So I don't know how excited to get about that. However for casting, I hope they get Maggie Q.

[dtissagirl]

She'll probably be used to train Laurel. So I don't know how excited to get about that. However for casting, I hope they get Maggie Q.

 

Maggie Q is the lead in the new Kevin Williamson show, Stalker.

 

Maybe now that Dracula was canceled, they'll get Jessica De Gouw back as Helena, and put her into Laurel's story arc in some variation of Birds of Prey.

[Sakura12]

Since Laurel will never be Black Canary for me, there will never be a Birds of Prey with her.

[abhi]

If Lady Shiva, appears on Arrow, it is highly doubtful that she is going to train anyone. In the new 52, she is a member of the League of Assassins if I am not mistaken. And before that, she was an assassin for hire who had the same teacher as Black Canary. So, if she gets introduced most probably she will be an anti hero.

 

And at the recent con that Amell attended he was asked who is the villain he wants to see most on Arrow, he had said Ra's Al Ghul. Since, he knows a lot about what's going to happen in Season 3, I wouldn't be surprised if Ra's is introduced at least in some form in season 3.

Edited June 2, 2014 by abhi

[Morrigan2575]

Wasn't Lady Shiva a member of the LoA pre-flashpoint too?  I don't think they've changed that much about the character.

[abhi]

There is also a possibility that Oliver crosses her path in Honk Kong if they introduce Lady Shiva.

[KirkB]

Lady Shiva has traveled all over the world and encountered/confronted virtually every martial arts oriented character in DC at one point or another. Even if she is not a part of the LoA in the Arrow continuity she probably has some connections with them, and if she heard from Nyssa or Ra's about Oliver she might come to Starling just to test him. Or she could be yet another person Oliver meets in the past while on vacation from his "five years on the hellish island."

[icandigit]

Laurel trained by Ted Grant?

http://theapplefour.tumblr.com/post/87508499633/new-character-for-season-3-wildcat-ted-grant

 

More speculation than spoiler, just being careful.

Edited June 2, 2014 by icandigit

[quarks]

That kinda seems to be on the same level as the speculation that Hal Jordan is showing up because we've seen Ferris Air, though. This show seems to like dropping little Easter Eggs like that.

[wonderwall]

Laurel trained by Ted Grant?

http://theapplefour.tumblr.com/post/87508499633/new-character-for-season-3-wildcat-ted-grant

 

More speculation than spoiler, just being careful.

 

I really don't mean to be rude, but I would never EVER trust what theapplefour would say. She's not objective at all and attacks people who disagrees with her. Trust me, I've seen her on every board. She's a rabid Laurel fan, but I think sometimes her love for Laurel blinds her a bit :/

 

I don't really care who trains Laurel, or if she gets trained. If she does, then I hope she gets trained by a baddie so she can switch sides though I highly doubt that's likely considering she's a 'good-doer'. All I hope for is that Oliver nor any other member of Team Arrow not train her. It's just not right especially if Laurel is to become BC. ALSO it's logistically impossible considering just how much Oliver has on his plate (new job, arrow biz, working out, etc.). 

Edited June 2, 2014 by wonderwall

[FurryFury]

I don't really care who trains Laurel, or if she gets trained. If she does, then I hope she gets trained by a baddie so she can switch sides though I highly doubt that's likely considering she's a 'good-doer'.

 

That's completely off-topic, but this bit of rage has been building up inside of me ever since I saw the interview. Who the hell says "good-doer"? Granted, I'm not a native speaker of English, but this word sounds completely bogus and made-up. Isn't it usually "do-gooder"?

[Morrigan2575]

Yes, it's "do-gooder" not, "good-doer"

[wonderwall]

Or maybe it's KCs play on words that Laurel does (read: bangs) good people. 

 

Wowwwwwwww. I couldn't say that with a straight face :p

[FurryFury]

Aaand I've just burst out laughing. That was priceless, wonderwall!

[wonderwall]

@FurryFury, aw thanks! I aim to please in every way Laurel doesn't. And that is successfully :) 

[Sakura12]

Or maybe it's KCs play on words that Laurel does (read: bangs) good people. 

 

Wowwwwwwww. I couldn't say that with a straight face :p

Hahaha.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Sakura12

[Password]

I'm confused?

[wonderwall]

I'm confused?

Katie Cassidy uses the phrase 'good-doer' instead of 'do-gooder' which is the correct way of saying it. Good-doer isn't even a phrase and now I just like to make ridiculous fun of her by using that phrase whenever I talk about Laurel :p Is it childish? 100% yes. Do I care that it is? Nope :p

[Password]

Maybe she didn't mean do-gooder? I almost think of do-gooder as goody two shoes. Or I'm just talking nonsense. She probably meant do-gooder but the exact phrase evaded her. Still funny though.

[icandigit]

Thanks I didn't know. I've been desperately looking foe something to soften the potenial Laurel as BC blow. But, I''l know to stay away from that.

[writersblock51]

Adding my warning about Theapplefour's Tumblr speculations - I've been attacked by that person (and others) enough times to discount anything posted on that account as something worth reading.  As a group of fans, they don't help KC in any way, IMO.

 

And I'd love to see Ted Kord and his Blue Beetle-ness on the show at some point.  One good way to pull Kord into the show more would be for Felicity to get a new job at Kord Industries in S3 while the QC mess gets sorted out.

[statsgirl]

There have been Ted Kord mentions on the show. I remember in one flashback with Moira commenting on how tiring the evening was, another Ted Kord fundraiser, just before Robert tells her Malcolm's big plan.

[writersblock51]

I think there have been a few visual Kord Industries clues as well.

[statsgirl]

Question: What is gonna be the status of Barry and Felicity’s relationship on The Flash and Arrow? –Rachelle

Ausiello: It is hinted in the Flash premiere that Barry’s trip to Starling City (and/or a certain someone he met there!) indeed made an impression on him. But we also see almost immediately that the CSI whiz shares a quite complicated “relationship” with Iris West, the police detective’s daughter he “grew up with” after his mother was murdered/his father arrested. Obviously, the question will be: When will those two ever be on the same page regarding what they feel beyond a “brother/sister” vibe?

http://tvline.com/2014/06/03/nashville-season-3-spoilers-juliette-pregnant-hayden-panettiere/

 

That sounds to me like having been used to set up The Flash, Felicity/Barry is now pretty dead.

Edited June 4, 2014 by statsgirl

[FurryFury]

It was doomed from the start.