Spoiler Discussion Thread

[lemotomato]

if S4 really is a grassroots change, becoming and staying Ra's Ollie Ghul would certainly qualify.

I think the grassroots change for next season will be Oliver acknowledging his Arrow identity publicly and having to be both at the same time. SA said something like "the greatest moment of the show is going to happen in the season 4 teaser" at the Kansas City Con, and I think a scene like Tony Stark's "I am Iron Man" moment would fit the bill. it would also explain why they won't need the Foundry Lair set anymore (have to get a new secret headquarters with better security, hopefully) and Oliver dealing with the consequences of reconciling both of his identities would be a good follow up to this season's theme.

Edited March 18, 2015 by lemotomato

[Sunshine]

If Oliver does agree to be Ra's heir in 3.21 it's either a ruse to bring him down or I think it would only last a short while.  Sound like the grass roots change might just be more magical and/or supernatural elements which would allow for different types of villains.  It'll probably be gritty but no longer grounded.

 

I do think S4 will be about Oliver figuring out how to balance OQ/Arrow.  S2 was about OQ.  S3 is all about Arrow.  He might gain GA status by the end of S4.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Sunshine

[Morrigan2575]

If Oliver does agree to be Ra's heir in 3.21 it's either a ruse to bring him down or I think it would only last a short while.  Sound like the grass roots change might just be more magical and/or supernatural elements which would allow for different types of villains.  It'll probably be gritty but no longer grounded.

 

I do think S4 will be about Oliver figuring out how to balance OQ/Arrow.  S2 was about OQ.  S3 is all about Arrow.  He might gain GA status by the end of S4.

I agree, if Oliver becomes Ra's Ollie Ghul (BTW I love that name), it will most likely be very short lived.  I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Nyssa/Oliver teamed up to take down Ra's and Oliver leaves Nyssa in charge of the LoA.  To me that makes the most sense.  However, i can't deny that Ra's Ollie Ghul and League of Arrow would be a change in direction at the Fundamental level

[strikera0]

The Flash's PaleyFest trailer includes glimpses of Felicity, Ray, Laurel and Quentin - all in Central City?

 

Sigh, so Laurel already calls herself the Black Canary 16 episodes into her hero's journey and Roy already goes by the name of Arsenal, but Oliver is still only called the Arrow and we're almost at the end of season 3. This is starting to remind me of Smallville where just about every secondary hero character reached their hero's destiny before Clark did, but at least Clark had the excuse that he was still a teenager when the show started.

[tv echo]

From the ET article in the Spoilers thread:

Speaking of Malcolm, to say his relationship with daughter Thea (Willa Holland) is strained is an understatement. “She’s pretty much as lost as she’s ever been at this current moment,” Holland says. “She’s very twisted up inside about finding out that her father drugged her and made her kill an old family friend. I don’t think that’s going to go down too easily with her. She’s going to be upset and I don’t think she’s going to be too happy with pop anymore about doing that. She’s a bit lost and doesn’t know what she’s doing and there’s not even a thought process behind her actions anymore.”

This seems to support the dialogue tease being Thea to Roy.  (fingers still crossed)

Edited March 18, 2015 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

From the sneak peak. 

 

Ohnoes, Quentin activated the death curse! He's a goner.

[SonofaBiscuit]

From that Hollywood Reporter clip, Laurel and Nyssa are friends now?  Whut?  I haven't been watching, and apparently I've missed a lot.

[apinknightmare]

From that Hollywood Reporter clip, Laurel and Nyssa are friends now? Whut? I haven't been watching, and apparently I've missed a lot.

So have I, and I've been watching every week. They were kind of friendly last ep?

Edited March 18, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Password]

Oh no! Quentin said the line. Death watch clock.

[Sakura12]

From that Hollywood Reporter clip, Laurel and Nyssa are friends now?  Whut?  I haven't been watching, and apparently I've missed a lot.

 

Laurel will probably become closer to Nyssa then she was to her own sister.

[statsgirl]

I think Laurel was referring to Thea when she said her friend was having trouble with his father.

 

Even after all these seasons, Laurel is still me! me! me!  Why should Quentin forgive her on her timetable?  He's the one who was hurt, he should have all the time he needs to process it.

 

If someone is going to die, I really would rather keep Quentin and give up Laurel.

 

 

The dialog tease we are spec'ing on is "I don’t know what I’m doing anymore... I don’t know who I am... Can I just stay with you?" right?  If so, doesn't the first part match the Asian promo? 

No, the Oliver clip is "I don't know why I'm doing this". It's slightly different.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I think Laurel was referring to Thea when she said her friend was having trouble with his father.

 

In the spoiler thread, the episode description for 16 was "Meanwhile, Laurel and Nyssa bond over their issues with their fathers and Thea is forced to come to terms with her father after Oliver brings Malcolm to the loft to recover."  So, I think that they are going to try and make them friends who bond over their Daddy issues even though one woman has real issues and the other has a stand-up dad who is mad at her for being a liar who lies. 

[Chaser]

One of the reasons I want the tease to be Thea, is I love the idea that both Oliver and Thea are stuggling with their identity. It could lead to some really great character moments between the siblings.

 

I don't know why they are going with 'Daddy Issues' to bring Laurel and Nyssa together. The situations are too different. They both lost Sara, make it about that.

[KirkB]

I don't know why they are going with 'Daddy Issues' to bring Laurel and Nyssa together. The situations are too different. They both lost Sara, make it about that.

 

 

Absolutely. The daddy issues things makes zero sense but I could see the two of them sitting down and talking about how much they miss Sara.

[apinknightmare]

I'm really worried about the "daddy issues" angle, because while I appreciate that Laurel is maybe feeling the full weight of what she did, she only has herself to blame for that. Nyssa was disinherited. So, she's angry at her father, and Laurel is...what at hers? She disappointed Quentin; Ra's disappoitned Nyssa. How are they going to bond over that? The only way is, I think, if they have Laurel be angry at Quentin, which...yeah.

[statsgirl]

For Laurel, they would be having the same problem though because she's always been such a drama queen about her issues.  If they want me to like Laurel, they need to stop making her so self-centered, not put her in a buckle suit.

[SmallScreenDiva]

One of the reasons I want the tease to be Thea, is I love the idea that both Oliver and Thea are stuggling with their identity. It could lead to some really great character moments between the siblings.

 

I don't know why they are going with 'Daddy Issues' to bring Laurel and Nyssa together. The situations are too different. They both lost Sara, make it about that.

 

Weird, the interview I read made it sound like they were bonding over Sara. KC is quoted as saying Laurel sees why Sara fell in love with Nyssa. There was also something about Nyssa seeing Sara in Laurel, but I can't remember who said that.

[Morrigan2575]

Weird, the interview I read made it sound like they were bonding over Sara. KC is quoted as saying Laurel sees why Sara fell in love with Nyssa. There was also something about Nyssa seeing Sara in Laurel, but I can't remember who said that.

KC said that as well.  Same interview

 

 

From the sneak peak. 

 

Ohnoes, Quentin activated the death curse! He's a goner.

Oh no, Lance utter that stupid out to save the world line?  Poor Lance, he's a dead man walking. :-(

Edited March 18, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

The only thing Sara and Laurel have in common is they are both women. 

[lexicon]

Laurel will probably become closer to Nyssa then she was to her own sister.

 

Snort

[Starfish35]

Tbh, I'm actually looking forward to seeing what they do with Laurel and Nyssa. Felicity and Laurel doesn't work for me for, well, reasons that I won't elaborate on here, but I do think Laurel and Nyssa could really work as a strong female friendship, done right (yeah I know). I know I'm not a Laurel fan, but I don't actually want to hate her, and if a partnership with Nyssa makes her more tolerable, than I'm all for it.

[Angel12d]

I'm slow today. I hope it's Thea/Roy but that dialogue tease feels like Oliver/Felicity to me. Oliver comes back from NP after Ra's told him he loves a woman he can't have, so he goes to Felicity and tells her he doesn't know what he's doing anymore and can he just stay with her and she turns around and says "I'm with Ray now." It's cliché-ridden unnecessary drama because we've already had him walking in on them kissing, do we really need this to happen? With MG the answer is yes. UGH. Plus it's only episode 316. It's supposed to get worse before it gets better. 

 

But really. I hope it's Thea/Roy. They've grown on me a lot and I like the parallel of Thea/Oliver being completely lost this season.

[catrox14]

From the sneak peak. 

 

Ohnoes, Quentin activated the death curse! He's a goner.

 

Sonofabitch! ...He's seriously doomed. I am very sad about this.  And I don't think it's a tease.  Because you know, he's already named her "Black Canary"...and if Quentin dies then Laurel has EVEN more RAGE.  /ugh...NOOOOOO DO. NOT. WANT

Tbh, I'm actually looking forward to seeing what they do with Laurel and Nyssa. Felicity and Laurel doesn't work for me for, well, reasons that I won't elaborate on here, but I do think Laurel and Nyssa could really work as a strong female friendship, done right (yeah I know). I know I'm not a Laurel fan, but I don't actually want to hate her, and if a partnership with Nyssa makes her more tolerable, than I'm all for it.

 

I'm opposed to Laurel being friends with either Felicity or Nyssa, because it's borderline boyfriend-swapping and sister-swapping reasons. Yes I know she hasn't had sex with either of them, but the connection is too close and I just see no compelling reason why Laurel has to be friends with them.  Why can't Laurel have other friends. Like bring Joanna back...(she's not dead is she?).  Or as an ADA doesn't she have any other friends. Wait, Laurel is still working as an ADA right??  Let Nyssa and Felicity be her freinenemies in the Arrow work realm.

[looptab]

You see, on some level I agree with you, because I wouldn't want the awesomeness of neither Felicity nor Nyssa be tainted by her proximity/don't want them propping her. And it's kinda true that both those relationship would be out of nowhere and forced, but it's not out of the realm of possibilities that something good may come out of it. Think about it: in which world would someone like Diggle be friend with someone like Felicity? Or Roy? Or Roy and Felicity?

All those relationship are born from the circumstances those people found themselves in. Same for Nyssa/Laurel. So, as much as I might dislike the idea of it, I'm willing to give them a chance (I just know I'll regret it).

Edited March 18, 2015 by looptab

[Starfish35]

Well, mileage will vary of course. I think Sara is a good reason for Nyssa and Laurel to be friends, and I can see Nyssa training Laurel as a way of honoring Sara's memory. Nyssa and Laurel working together makes a lot more sense to me than Laurel working with Team Arrow (though I know it's likely to be a temporary situation). *shrug*. But that's just my perspective.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Starfish35

[tv echo]

I actually don't have a problem with Nyssa and Laurel becoming friends.  I have more of a problem with Nyssa training Laurel without permission from Ra's al Ghul.  

 

I can't believe that Ra's would allow any LOA member to train outsiders at will, not even his daughter.  I would think the LOA would have special training techniques and tricks - wasn't that why Oliver asked Malcolm to train him?  Malcolm agreed because he'd already gone rogue from the LOA and was facing death from Ra's.  Nyssa might be becoming estranged from her father, but she doesn't have a death penalty over her head.

 

If LOA members are allowed to freely train non-members, without acquiring any benefit for the LOA, then such training could hurt the LOA in the future by making it easier for outsiders to defeat LOA members.

Edited March 18, 2015 by tv echo

[wonderwall]

I can't believe that Ra's would allow any LOA member to train outsiders at will, not even his daughter

 

I'm sure if he allowed Nyssa to train Sara, he'll allow Nyssa to train Laurel. Regardless, I think after Ra's neglecting Nyssa, she won't give a damn what he thinks. 

[Starfish35]

I doubt Ra's would put a death penalty on Nyssa just for training Laurel, so after being effectively disinherited, she may just not give a damn what he thinks on the subject.

And after being rejected by her father, I could see that she might see Laurel, as the sister of her beloved, as the closest thing she has left to family.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Starfish35

[tv echo]

But Sara became an LOA member and killed for them, so she didn't get her training for free.  Is Laurel going to do the same?  And even if Nyssa doesn't give a damn anymore, will Ra's?  He may not kill Nyssa, but he could easily kill Laurel (unless he magically falls in love with her).  I just think it needs to be addressed in some way.

Edited March 18, 2015 by tv echo

[catrox14]

 

Think about it: in which world would someone like Diggle be friend with someone like Felicity? Or Roy? Or Roy and Felicity?

 

 Diggle never treated Felicity badly. He wasn't condescending or rude to Felicity.  Same with Roy. Same with Sara.  Up to the point of Oliver going missing this season Laurel has IMO generally been rather unkind to Felicity and at times downright rude.

 

I could see Nyssa and Laurel bonding over Sara IF Laurel had ever been particularly nice to her own sister once she came back. It was only during the finale arc of s2 that Laurel seemed to even remotely appreciate Sara in a real way.   So to me, any bonding would MAYBE Laurel realizing just exactly what horrible things Sara experienced.  But this all just feels like the potential for more propping for Laurel's already too fast ascencsion to BC.

[looptab]

 Diggle never treated Felicity badly. He wasn't condescending or rude to Felicity.  Same with Roy. Same with Sara.  Up to the point of Oliver going missing this season Laurel has IMO generally been rather unkind to Felicity and at times downright rude.

 

I could see Nyssa and Laurel bonding over Sara IF Laurel had ever been particularly nice to her own sister once she came back. It was only during the finale arc of s2 that Laurel seemed to even remotely appreciate Sara in a real way.   So to me, any bonding would MAYBE Laurel realizing just exactly what horrible things Sara experienced.  But this all just feels like the potential for more propping for Laurel's already too fast ascencsion to BC.

 I wasn't trying to dissuade you from feeling that way (sorry if that's how it read),I understand your reasons for not wanting it. I was merely stating why I might (begrudgingly) come to accept it. :)

[catrox14]

 I wasn't trying to dissuade you from feeling that way (sorry if that's how it read),I understand your reasons for not wanting it. I was merely stating why I might (begrudgingly) come to accept it. :)

 

I didn't take your comment as trying to dissuade me. :) nor that I'm trying to dissuade you from your position. Just saying where the distinctions are for me and why I'm still opposed to it. :)

[looptab]

I didn't take your comment as trying to dissuade me. :) nor that I'm trying to dissuade you from your position. Just saying where the distinctions are for me and why I'm still opposed to it. :)

Oh, good, for a moment I thought you might have - I struggle to make my point in the most appropriate way, sometimes. And yeah, I know you're not ;) We'll see where this goes. (75% chance you'll find me in the episode thread complaining about Laurel and Nyssa, because this is the year where "nothing good happens").

[Sakura12]

Ra's didn't just allow Nyssa to train Sara. Sara was brought before Ra's and he determined if she was to be trained or killed. Sara proving she was a badass laughed in his face and he let her join. Which she then killed for them. Ra's is not going to let Nyssa train someone that's not going to be one of them. 

 

I wanted to see Sara and Nyssa together kicking ass, instead we get stuck with Nyssa and Laurel. Why would I want to see them interacting over seeing Sara and Nyssa together? That's just another prop Laurel up and give her everything Sara had. 

Edited March 18, 2015 by Sakura12

[statsgirl]

I can't see Laurel and Felicity as friends because of they're so different and because of the way Laurel treated Felicity for 2+ seasons. I'm not jumping on to the "Oh, it's so great that the women have a friendship now" bandwagon.

 

I do however think that Laurel and Thea could be friends because they have so much more in common that Laurel has with Felicity, and Laurel's never treated Thea like The Help.

 

I like the idea of Nyssa and Laurel bonding over their feelings for Sara.  I don't like the idea, though, of Nyssa training Laurel to be like Sara.  A little training, yes, so Laurel doesn't get herself killed. But no full out LoA training.  That makes it feel that Laurel is just taking over everything Sara had, without the inner caring her sister did.

[Chaser]

They have Laurel wearing her dead sister's clothes, mask and wig. They have Laurel taking her dead sister's name. They have Laurel pretending to be her dead sister.  Now they have Laurel's dead sister's lover/trainer now bonding/training Laurel. This is where my objection lies.

 

On face value, there is nothing wrong nor out of the ordinary with coming together to mourn the lose of a mutual loved one. If they had started there I think I would be more open to it but with everything Laurel has done to be her sister (and that's what it feels like to me), I want something to remain Sara's.

Edited March 18, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[SonofaBiscuit]

From the Comic Book Resources interview:
 

Nyssa has some information, and a thing or two maybe she can teach her," actress Katie Cassidy told CBR. "I think they learn from each other.

 

 

Yeah, they're definitely doing the insta-friends thing.  Nyssa: "I spent my entire life training to inherit a position from my assassin father, and now that has been ripped away from me."  Laurel: "Well, my dad is mad at me, so I can totally relate."  Seriously, these writers come up with the dumbest storylines to advance the plot (because I'm like 100% sure the only reason that this is happening is because Laurel needs training and it can't come from Oliver or people will probably riot).   

[statsgirl]

The EPs keeps saying that they're not making Laurel Insta-Canary, but what has she got that she didn't copy from Sara?  The suit, the wig, the name, the entre into Team Arrow and now Nyssa. The only thing that is Laurel's alone is her ADA job and we haven't seen her doing that for months.

[manbearpig]

Since Ra's just gave Oliver the League for...reasons, I doubt Nyssa cares about what he wants at the minute. Arrow's version of Ra's can't even kill someone with the help of a sword, a cliff, and a steep drop. I don't see her asking his permission to give Laurel some training.

[Danny Franks]

What could Nyssa possibly learn from Laurel? How to become a drunk and then get better in the space of a month and a half? How to lie more effectively to her dad?

[Chaser]

How would Nyssa train Laurel? Laurel needs a lot of help. Would Nyssa move to Starling City just to train her? I can't imagine Nyssa just gives up her place at the LOA. Or does Nyssa just give her a lesson plan to follow and sends a few smoke signals every once in awhile.

 

They really should have put more thought into Ted Grant; it would have helped with the SWF thing going on.

[manbearpig]

Why would Nyssa want to stay in the League after her dad offered a leadership role to Oliver because...what, he didn't croak?

[kismet]

Laurel & Nyssa bonding over Sara would be a nice organic way to bring 2 characters together. I definitely think that Nyssa could give Laurel some basic training that would help her fight, but not be at the level of the secret training that the LoA get. Nyssa loved Sara, why would she not try to help her sister? Some basic moves, strengthening exercises & weapon handling would go a long way. It doesn't even have to be onscreen, but it would allow the stunt double to do more stuff later on in the season. As for the fathers angle, maybe Nyssa will help QL get out of Ras clutches? I mean it did seem like Nyssa understood Sara's connection to her father, so she might try to honor that relationship to. I can't imagine beyond basic frustration with their fathers they could bond over them? Ras & QL seem like completely different types of father figures. As others have mentioned, Nyssa was betrayed by her father & LL betrayed her father - so the situations are completely different. But sometimes seeing it from the other perspective makes you realize what you did. I hope that if they do bond, it helps to repair the hurt that LL caused QL.

[apinknightmare]

Why would Nyssa want to stay in the League after her dad offered a leadership role to Oliver because...what, he didn't croak?

 

I wonder if she has a choice? The only way others can leave is if they die for it - I wonder if Ra's will hold her to the same standard? 

[manbearpig]

Fair enough, but considering that the league consists of Maseo, nameless extras and an incompetent leader, I think Nyssa would be able to evade them like Sara did for a while. And then just kill anyone who came to kill her. I don't know. I just can't take Ra's Al Ghul seriously. I'm ready for season four's villain to take over to be honest.

[Chaser]

I don't like the idea of Nyssa just accepting Ra's choice with Oliver (esp since its stupid) and walking away. I would rather she fight for her inheritance.

[apinknightmare]

I don't like the idea of Nyssa just accepting Ra's choice with Oliver (esp since its stupid) and walking away. I would rather she fight for her inheritance.

 

I know this is far-fetched, but instead of her fighting, I'd rather her enter into some shady secret deal with Oliver to overthrow/trick him. 

[catrox14]

How would Nyssa train Laurel? Laurel needs a lot of help. Would Nyssa move to Starling City just to train her? I can't imagine Nyssa just gives up her place at the LOA. Or does Nyssa just give her a lesson plan to follow and sends a few smoke signals every once in awhile.

 

They really should have put more thought into Ted Grant; it would have helped with the SWF thing going on.

 

Laurel will be a super fast learner and be done with just a few days.  Just like errything else in her rise to BC.  

[Chaser]

I know this is far-fetched, but instead of her fighting, I'd rather her enter into some shady secret deal with Oliver to overthrow/trick him. 

I would consider that fighting for her birthright and something I would like to see. If Oliver accepts in 3.20, I really want them to be working a con on Ra's.

[statsgirl]

I'd like them to be working a con too but MG and SA have been too earnest about Ra's offering Oliver a real choice to make me think that.

 

I wonder if she has a choice? The only way others can leave is if they die for it - I wonder if Ra's will hold her to the same standard? 

If I were Nyssa, and my father offered the job I had ben training for all my life to a guy who could barely fight just because he didn't die?  I'd be gunning... er arrowing for both of them. If death is the only way out, they'd both be on my list for exiting.  Just sayin'.