Spoiler Discussion Thread

[catrox14]

 

I wouldn't call it work though, what they're doing, there's work involved but it's not the same thing IMO. Also that still doesn't address that fact that at your work there are more than two of you. I can speak from personal experience when I say that there is a bond that forms between two women who have dealt with life or death situations, kidnappings, the army or other extreme sitations etc together. They should have come to some sort of bond-y thing (whether grudgingly or not) already.

 

Are men that share foxholes bound to be friends all time after the battle is over?  D Oliver became friends with the Flash because Felicity called him to help and Oliver became a mentor of sorts to Barry.  But Oliver is under no obligation to become friends with Ray just because they might both be trying to superhero and both care about Felicity. I don't think Laurel and Felicity are under any obligation to be friends or not be friends.  I just think if they do become friends it will be so Laurel is more likeable.  I truly don't think these showrunners have any interest in having a real female friendship like female friendships are IRL.

Edited January 25, 2015 by catrox14

[statsgirl]

From ash818's The Man Under The Hood

 

Milena makes prime rib for dinner that night, and absolutely everyone shows up. Laurel and Lyla arrive within ten minutes of each other

[snip],

As usual at family gatherings, Mom and Laurel make yet another good faith but ultimately doomed effort to become best girlfriends, even though each one’s jokes fall completely flat for the other.

I think she nails the character of Laurel, even better than the show's writers who can be all over the place.

 

This is how I see Felicity and Laurel   They get along, they support each other, but they will never be BFFs because as people, they are just too different.  They could talk about nail polish and hair dye but it would never get beyond the superficial because they see things differently.

 

If Joanna were to show up again, I wouldn't expect her to get along with Felicity as well as she got on with Laurel, just as Sara's relationship with Felicity seemed uncomplicated even though Sara was sleeping with the guy Felicity had feelings for.

 

------

I don't know what MG will do but I think to put Felicity and Oliver at odds over Laurel would be a huge mistake.  The show needs  Felicity and Olicity fans to support Laurel and I can't think of a better way of tanking that short of having Oliver sleep with Laurel again than to have Laurel be the reason Oliver and Felicity aren't having Welcome Back From The Dead (Again) sex.  Actually, I think Oliver sleeping with Laurel would be less of a blow than Felicity fighting with him over letting Laurel fight in her new costume.

[slayer2]

From ash818's The Man Under The Hood

I think she nails the character of Laurel, even better than the show's writers who can be all over the place.

 

This is how I see Felicity and Laurel   They get along, they support each other, but they will never be BFFs because as people, they are just too different.  They could talk about nail polish and hair dye but it would never get beyond the superficial because they see things differently.

 

If Joanna were to show up again, I wouldn't expect her to get along with Felicity as well as she got on with Laurel, just as Sara's relationship with Felicity seemed uncomplicated even though Sara was sleeping with the guy Felicity had feelings for.

 

------

I don't know what MG will do but I think to put Felicity and Oliver at odds over Laurel would be a huge mistake.  The show needs  Felicity and Olicity fans to support Laurel and I can't think of a better way of tanking that short of having Oliver sleep with Laurel again than to have Laurel be the reason Oliver and Felicity aren't having Welcome Back From The Dead (Again) sex.  Actually, I think Oliver sleeping with Laurel would be less of a blow than Felicity fighting with him over letting Laurel fight in her new costume.

 

I don't think they necessarily need Olicity fans to support Laurel and I don't think they ever will, but I do think there are enough fans who don't ship anyone to allow the show to move in the direction it wants without worrying about various shipper expectations.

[jay741982]

From ash818's The Man Under The Hood

I think she nails the character of Laurel, even better than the show's writers who can be all over the place.

 

This is how I see Felicity and Laurel   They get along, they support each other, but they will never be BFFs because as people, they are just too different.  They could talk about nail polish and hair dye but it would never get beyond the superficial because they see things differently.

 

If Joanna were to show up again, I wouldn't expect her to get along with Felicity as well as she got on with Laurel, just as Sara's relationship with Felicity seemed uncomplicated even though Sara was sleeping with the guy Felicity had feelings for.

 

------

I don't know what MG will do but I think to put Felicity and Oliver at odds over Laurel would be a huge mistake.  The show needs  Felicity and Olicity fans to support Laurel and I can't think of a better way of tanking that short of having Oliver sleep with Laurel again than to have Laurel be the reason Oliver and Felicity aren't having Welcome Back From The Dead (Again) sex.  Actually, I think Oliver sleeping with Laurel would be less of a blow than Felicity fighting with him over letting Laurel fight in her new costume.

Oliver and Felicity SHOULD have Welcome back from the Dead sex but no it's all about the Angst dammit God forbid there is SOME happiness or some light in this show!(Yes I know not everyone wants to see this happen LOL)

[apinknightmare]

I don't think they necessarily need Olicity fans to support Laurel and I don't think they ever will, but I do think there are enough fans who don't ship anyone to allow the show to move in the direction it wants without worrying about various shipper expectations.

 

I don't think they need shipper support for Laurel, but they don't really need anyone else vocally against her. And putting her in as an (albeit, non-romantic) obstacle for that ship probably isn't the best idea, but maybe it would work out the way they'd want it to, who knows.

[slayer2]

I don't think they need shipper support for Laurel, but they don't really need anyone else vocally against her. And putting her in as an (albeit, non-romantic) obstacle for that ship probably isn't the best idea, but maybe it would work out the way they'd want it to, who knows.

 

I don't think it would change things either way is what I mean. People who don't like Laurel, don't like Laurel, they can't hate her any more than they already do as witnessed by some of the vitriol I've read and nothing TPTB will change that so oh well. TPTB may as well do what they want and forget about it IMO.

 

 

Oliver and Felicity SHOULD have Welcome back from the Dead sex but no it's all about the Angst dammit God forbid there is SOME happiness or some light in this show!(Yes I know not everyone wants to see this happen LOL)

 

I don't care if they bang until the cows come home, have at it I say Just give me some Laurel, Diggle, Roy superhero action and we're good to go.

Edited January 25, 2015 by slayer2

[Chaser]

Am I the only one that thinks making Laurel an obstacle in anyway doesn't make sense to Oliver and Felicity's story? I can't see why Felicity vocalizing support for Laurel would cause her and Oliver to be on the outs for a few episodes at least. Olicity's 'break-up' wasn't even about Felicity being in danger, so Laurel wouldn't even be a surrogate for that.

 

And romantically? I don't see that an option; not with the story they have told so far. And I go back to what SA has been saying: one woman this year (and he doesn't see that changing).

[HighHopes]

I don't think it would change things either way is what I mean. People who don't like Laurel, don't like Laurel, they can't hate her any more than they already do as witnessed by some of the vitriol I've read and nothing TPTB will change that so oh well. TPTB may as well do what they want and forget about it IMO.

 

 

I don't care if they bang until the cows come home, have at it I say Just give me some Laurel, Diggle,Roy superhero action and we're good to go.

 

I could actually hate Laurel more than I already do. In fact I used to be neutral to her, and now I can't handle her. I've also talked to people in the fandom who were Laurel supporters and fans who loved her character and wanted her to become the Black Canary, who have now changed their tune. With the way the show has handled Sara's death and Laurel's transition into becoming the Black Canary they are now fed up with Laurel and the storyline and no longer care for her. These were those fans who were big advocates for her and were also Olicity fans. 

 

So it is actually possible for people to dislike her more or to be fans of her who no longer are. 

Edited January 25, 2015 by HighHopes

[apinknightmare]

I don't think it would change things either way is what I mean. People who don't like Laurel, don't like Laurel, they can't hate her any more than they already do as witnessed by some of the vitriol I've read and nothing TPTB will change that so oh well. TPTB may as well do what they want and forget about it IMO.

 

People who hate her are going to hate her, but not all Olicity shippers do hate her. In fact, I think a fair number of them are warming up to her. Potentially pissing off one of the more vocal factions of fandom when you're trying to get people on her side is a risky thing to do. 

[slayer2]

I've never met any Olicity + Laurel fans. I was one but now I care less than zero about Olicity but it still wouldn't impact the show any more than it already has, the vitriol is already there, and for those who are on the hate Laurel bandwagon they have other reasons to watch the show and so they do. If you're watching a show expecting everything and everyone you want to happen it quickly becomes a very shitty ride.

 

 I don't think they're trying to get Olicity fans on their side. They're different targets, there are Black Canary fans, there are Felicity fans, there are Oliver fans and there are Thea fans, there are Diggle fans and Roy fans. The targets aren't necessarily meant to meet, it would probably be nice but that's fine if they don't. Different people watch for different reasons so it's not fundamental that the Olicity fans get onboard with Laurel, it never has been fundamental for the success of the show. The Olicity fans are a fraction of show fans not all of them, I know there are many on this board but on other boards there are other fandoms that really don't care about Olicity, from that standpoint a LauCity friendship seems perfectly accessible.

Edited January 25, 2015 by slayer2

[HighHopes]

I've never met any Olicity + Laurel fans. I was one but now I care less than zero about Olicity but it still wouldn't impact the show any more than it already has, the vitriol is already there, and for those who are on the hate Laurel bandwagon they have other reasons to watch the show and so they do. If you're watching a show expecting everything and eveyrone you want to happen it becomes a very shitty ride.

 

I can give you a list of Olicity fans who are also Laurel fans, and it would be pretty long too. The vocal Olicity fans do not represent the fandom at all. Try finding the quieter ones and you would be surprised at how many Laurel/Olicity fans you can find. 

[dtissagirl]

Am I the only one that thinks making Laurel an obstacle in anyway doesn't make sense to Oliver and Felicity's story? I can't see why Felicity vocalizing support for Laurel would cause her and Oliver to be on the outs for a few episodes at least. Olicity's 'break-up' wasn't even about Felicity being in danger, so Laurel wouldn't even be a surrogate for that.

Yeah. I understand why people are speculating they'd fight over Laurel, but 312 is Malcolm-centric, it would make more sense if Oliver agreeing to form an alliance with him is the catalyst here, than Felicity thinking Laurel has potential.

The synopsis is Malcolm wants to help bring Brick down. I'm assuming Team Arrowless will accept his offer because it's Brick's last episode. And then the ~twist is Oliver showing up and going, okay, Psycho Killer, now let's bro up and take down Ra's too. That'd piss Felicity off all right.

[apinknightmare]

Am I the only one that thinks making Laurel an obstacle in anyway doesn't make sense to Oliver and Felicity's story? I can't see why Felicity vocalizing support for Laurel would cause her and Oliver to be on the outs for a few episodes at least. Olicity's 'break-up' wasn't even about Felicity being in danger, so Laurel wouldn't even be a surrogate for that.

 

And romantically? I don't see that an option; not with the story they have told so far. And I go back to what SA has been saying: one woman this year (and he doesn't see that changing).

 

I don't think Laurel will come between them romantically. I think that Felicity won't take kindly to Oliver coming back from the dead and trying to take the reins back for "his" mission after her, Diggle, Roy and Laurel have tried to continue on and made it their mission. And I think she might not take kindly to Oliver wanting Laurel off the team and telling her what to do. If he tries to frame it as being something he's doing because he cares about Laurel, then I can see Felicity telling him that if that's how he treats the women he cares about, she doesn't want to be one of them. 

 

Now, the problem with this is that I think Felicity would understand why Oliver felt that way - Diggle and Roy did at first, too. And he's never been overbearing about her putting herself out there as bait (he's even used her as bait once), so she'd know that he wasn't coming from a misogynistic, sexist place. That his concern truly would be about Laurel herself. So, in light of those two things, the fight being about Oliver's treatment of Laurel wouldn't make sense. Who knows at this point.

Edited January 25, 2015 by apinknightmare

[apinknightmare]

I've never met any Olicity + Laurel fans. I was one but now I care less than zero about Olicity but it still wouldn't impact the show any more than it already has, the vitriol is already there, and for those who are on the hate Laurel bandwagon they have other reasons to watch the show and so they do. If you're watching a show expecting everything and everyone you want to happen it quickly becomes a very shitty ride.

 

 I don't think they're trying to get Olicity fans on their side. They're different targets, there are Black Canary fans, there are Felicity fans, there are Oliver fans and there are Thea fans, there are Diggle fans and Roy fans. The targets aren't necessarily meant to meet, it would probably be nice but that's fine if they don't. Different people watch for different reasons so it's not fundamental that the Olicity fans get onboard with Laurel, it never has been fundamental for the success of the show. The Olicity fans are a fraction of show fans not all of them, I know there are many on this board but on other boards there are other fandoms that really don't care about Olicity, from that standpoint a LauCity friendship seems perfectly accessible.

 

You've never met any, but there are tons. Contrary to popular belief, shipping Oliver and Felicity together doesn't result in hatred of Laurel. 

 

I never wrote that they were trying to get Olicity fans on Laurel's side. I wrote that they're trying to get people on Laurel's side, which they are, and that it might not be wise to piss off one of the more vocal groups in fandom when they're trying to do that. And I think it's pretty safe to say that they're having Felicity grow closer to Laurel (per MG) and having Felicity most likely take Laurel's side against Oliver wanting her off the team (again, per MG) as a way to get Felicity fans and probably the shipper overlap onto Laurel's side. And if Felicity taking her side results in a falling out with Oliver, they're kind of undoing everything they've worked on getting done. 

 

I mean, you have the right to your opinion that TPTB can basically do what they want to, but they're trying to get the audience to be sympathetic to Laurel. They're going to have us watch her get beat up and have stand-ins Diggle and Roy be against her doing it and vocalizing why it's a bad idea, and then they're going to come around, hoping that we'll trust their judgment. Then Felicity's going to take her side... there's definite audience maneuvering going on.

Edited January 25, 2015 by apinknightmare

[SonofaBiscuit]

I've looked at the spoiler thread and I'm wondering why people are saying that MG is really pushing the Laurel/Felicity scene.  Is there stuff he's been saying on Tumblr that hasn't been posted here because to me, it seems like he's pushed that scene no more than the Laurel/Diggle one, which people said wasn't even a big deal.  It's probably going to be Felicity and Laurel acting like normal human beings to each other for 30 seconds and that's it. Am I missing something here?

[Sunshine]

I think the obstacle will be Malcolm and/or Arrow himself.  If Felicity is "ascending" to the moral center per MG it would make sense (to me anyway) for her to object to a team-up with Malcolm or Oliver "having the will to do what needs to be done" going forward.  (I believe that's what he said to Barry).

 

Since MG is placing so much emphasis on the Felicity & Laurel scene I am wondering if it isn't a bonding of sorts. Felicity supports Laurel.  She's always been a "my life, my choice" kind of girl.  I wonder if this is the scene that happens near the end of 3.13 that made them think it was a good time to bring Slade back.  There is also supposed to be a big but not climatic payoff in the episode.  Oliver accepting (however grudgingly) Laurel on the team probably qualifies.  MG said we would know whether or not Slade thought the ILY to Felicity was just a ruse.  He appeared to believe it in 2.23.  So if Slade comes for Felicity in 3.14 the end might be a reversal of 2.23.  This time Canary teams up with Arrow to save Felicity.  Felicity has done something good for Laurel.  Laurel in turn does something good that benefits Felicity. 

[HighHopes]

I've looked at the spoiler thread and I'm wondering why people are saying that MG is really pushing the Laurel/Felicity scene.  Is there stuff he's been saying on Tumblr that hasn't been posted here because to me, it seems like he's pushed that scene no more than the Laurel/Diggle one, which people said wasn't even a big deal.  It's probably going to be Felicity and Laurel acting like normal human beings to each other for 30 seconds and that's it. Am I missing something here?

 

I'm not sure if this one was posted?:

Marc, I am so excited by Laurel's upcoming storyline! We know that Roy, John(at least at the beginning) and Oliver are against it and doubting her, but will we see someone support her and believe in her? Like Felicity? I'd love to see Felicity on Laurel's side.

(smiles)  You’re gonna want to watch 3x13.

 

 

I'm not sure if 3x13 is the same scene but he does seem to be pushing the possibility of a Laurel/Felicity friendship. Especially since the Thea/Felicity scenes have now been "pushed back". 

[Sunshine]

I've looked at the spoiler thread and I'm wondering why people are saying that MG is really pushing the Laurel/Felicity scene.  Is there stuff he's been saying on Tumblr that hasn't been posted here because to me, it seems like he's pushed that scene no more than the Laurel/Diggle one, which people said wasn't even a big deal.  It's probably going to be Felicity and Laurel acting like normal human beings to each other for 30 seconds and that's it. Am I missing something here?

He has mentioned the scene several times on tumblr.  Most questions he answers once which is why it seems like he is pushing it from what I have read elsewhere.

[Sunshine]

I don't think Laurel getting between Felicity & Oliver provides them with any growth going forward.  For Oliver (especially) to grow he is going to have really figure out how much of his humanity he wants to keep going forward.  I believe Ra's is going to challenge it.  He thinks Oliver should embrace the Arrow completely.  Felicity is probably demanding better from him.  She doesn't love Arrow.  She loves Oliver.

[ban1o]

I've looked at the spoiler thread and I'm wondering why people are saying that MG is really pushing the Laurel/Felicity scene.  Is there stuff he's been saying on Tumblr that hasn't been posted here because to me, it seems like he's pushed that scene no more than the Laurel/Diggle one, which people said wasn't even a big deal.  It's probably going to be Felicity and Laurel acting like normal human beings to each other for 30 seconds and that's it. Am I missing something here?

I said he's pushing it because he's probably mentioned it like more than 5 times on his tumblr. Most questions he only answers once. 

Edited January 25, 2015 by ban1o

[apinknightmare]

I think the obstacle will be Malcolm and/or Arrow himself.  If Felicity is "ascending" to the moral center per MG it would make sense (to me anyway) for her to object to a team-up with Malcolm or Oliver "having the will to do what needs to be done" going forward.  (I believe that's what he said to Barry).

 

Since MG is placing so much emphasis on the Felicity & Laurel scene I am wondering if it isn't a bonding of sorts. Felicity supports Laurel.  She's always been a "my life, my choice" kind of girl.  I wonder if this is the scene that happens near the end of 3.13 that made them think it was a good time to bring Slade back.  There is also supposed to be a big but not climatic payoff in the episode.  Oliver accepting (however grudgingly) Laurel on the team probably qualifies.  MG said we would know whether or not Slade thought the ILY to Felicity was just a ruse.  He appeared to believe it in 2.23.  So if Slade comes for Felicity in 3.14 the end might be a reversal of 2.23.  This time Canary teams up with Arrow to save Felicity.  Felicity has done something good for Laurel.  Laurel in turn does something good that benefits Felicity. 

 

I think the scene in 3x13 is going to be Felicity offering her support to Laurel after Oliver makes it known that he doesn't support her taking up vigilantism. It might be quick and not necessarily warm and fuzzy, but I do think that's what it'll be. And I wouldn't be surprised if Laurel comes in and helps with whatever Slade's doing (on her own, probably since she's not working with Arrow at this point) and Oliver might accept her after that.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Ah, OK.  That question was not posted in the spoiler thread.  A friendship between those two particular women doesn't seem organic to me, so I would prefer that any interaction between the two is limited and civil.  If the point is to get Laurel detractors on her side by having Felicity on her side, well look at how well that has worked out for Ray. All of his interactions are with Felicity, I think that we're meant to like him because Felicity does, but reactions to Ray seem mixed at best.  There is also the additional problem that KC frequently does not come off as intended in scenes, so even if a scene is written as friendly between the two women, it could very possibly play out a different way (see the gleeful jacket passing scene where Laurel smiled cheerfully as her sister returned to her life as an assassin).

[jay741982]

I don't think it would change things either way is what I mean. People who don't like Laurel, don't like Laurel, they can't hate her any more than they already do as witnessed by some of the vitriol I've read and nothing TPTB will change that so oh well. TPTB may as well do what they want and forget about it IMO.

 

 

I don't care if they bang until the cows come home, have at it I say Just give me some Laurel, Diggle, Roy superhero action and we're good to go.

I agree with you! I'm an Olicity shipper who is trying to warm up to Laurel, Cause I have no problem with having Olicity AND have Oliver Diggle Roy Felicity AND Laurel since its happening kicking ass. Give me Action and give me Oliver and the hottest woman(IMO) on the show in a relationship it's not hard show lol

[Sunshine]

Regarding the Thea and Felicity scenes being pushed back....

 

I went back and read the TV Line article which mentioned them.  I think maybe we misread them.  I believe it says there is lots of "Thea and Felicity".  At least in that article I didn't see anything saying they were sharing scenes together.  Just that we would be seeing them.  It would make more sense that they would share scenes under one of two circumstances. 1) Thea discovers Oliver's secret identity. or 2) Oliver and Felicity finally get together.   Oliver and Thea do live together.

[jay741982]

People who hate her are going to hate her, but not all Olicity shippers do hate her. In fact, I think a fair number of them are warming up to her. Potentially pissing off one of the more vocal factions of fandom when you're trying to get people on her side is a risky thing to do.

To prove your point a little bit I'm a Olicity shipper who is starting to warm up to Laurel.

[statsgirl]

Am I the only one that thinks making Laurel an obstacle in anyway doesn't make sense to Oliver and Felicity's story? I can't see why Felicity vocalizing support for Laurel would cause her and Oliver to be on the outs for a few episodes at least

No, it doesn't make sense to me either.

 

There are varying reactions to Laurel but one of the reasons some people didn't like her was because she treated Diggle and Felicity like the hired help.  The scene with Diggle in Left Behind helped mend their relationship (and remember we thought it would be about them bonding over a sibling's death?); a scene with Felicity in which Laurel doesn't treat her with disdain or superiority would help too.

 

 It's probably going to be Felicity and Laurel acting like normal human beings to each other for 30 seconds and that's it. Am I missing something here?

I think that's what it is, or Felicity talking to Laurel about the hazards of putting on a costume and Laurel for once not acting like Felicity has no right to be in her screentime.

 

It seems like every time they want the audience to like a new character, they put him with Felicity (i.e. Barry, Ray).  According to MG, EBR's superpower is making Felicity super rootable,.  Maybe they think that will rub off on her scenemates.

 

If they continue to have Laurel treat Felicity as she has up to now (the scene in Left Behind excepted), it's going to rebound on Laurel, just as Felicity and Oliver fighting over Laurel will.  And they very badly want Laurel to be liked right now. 

 

Remember the backlash against Sara when she and Oliver lunged at each other?  Sara was better liked than Laurel is, and there was no spoken Olicity yet.  They don't want that for Laurel, the remarks about InstaCanary and the costume are bad enough.  To paraphrase Irving Berlin's Sisters, "Lord help the sister who comes between Felicity and her man."  Even platonically.

[slayer2]

To prove your point a little bit I'm a Olicity shipper who is starting to warm up to Laurel.

 

Awww. I hope we both get what we want. You are right, the show needs some happy like seriously!

 

 

I can give you a list of Olicity fans who are also Laurel fans, and it would be pretty long too. The vocal Olicity fans do not represent the fandom at all. Try finding the quieter ones and you would be surprised at how many Laurel/Olicity fans you can find.

 

That's nice to know, I wish they would show up on here.

Edited January 25, 2015 by slayer2

[Genki]

Just chiming in with my theory on on who comes between Felicity and Oliver, and the "3rd party" I'm suggesting is The Arrow.

 

MG answer was a bit of a hedge when he said "I'm gonna go with yes.  But it's not Palmer."

 

Since Oliver is just back from a "committing suicide" in Felicity's opinion (see scene with Ray Palmer about why she won't help him), and he had grievous bodily injuries which, if there is no Lazareth Pit type scenario then he can't be 100% healed, so maybe she doesn't want Oliver going out again as the Arrow on a missions (maybe even allow Roy, Diggle and *cough* Laurel pick up the slack), and Oliver being Oliver insists and Felicity response is, "not going to help you die".

 

It is also a way to get her on Team Palmer since, I think, she is back in the Hero business, with the 3.11 "this is our city" line and since she will see a "new side of Ray". 

[JenMcSnark]

I'm not sure whether to take the "I'm the justice you can't run from" as a standard superhero line or as a meta commentary on how the viewers can't escape Laurel.

 

I think it's both.  As was the meta camera view of Laurel bashing (us) over the head after saying it.  

[jay741982]

Team Palmer UGH I don't think she's staying away from the Arrowcave DR said at his Con appearance that they were filming episode 14 I believe and him EBR CH and SA were in the Arrowcave so I don't think she leaves Team Arrow

Plus it's kinda Hypocritical to Help creepy eyes Ray and not Oliver

I think it's both.  As was the meta camera view of Laurel bashing (us) over the head after saying it.

Lol that's funny

[Genki]

Team Palmer UGH I don't think she's staying away from the Arrowcave DR said at his Con appearance that they were filming episode 14 I believe and him EBR CH and SA were in the Arrowcave so I don't think she leaves Team Arrow

Plus it's kinda Hypocritical to Help creepy eyes Ray and not Oliver

 

I don't want it to happen either. I don't necessarily think it will happen, but it's possible.

 

Also I don't think it's necessarily hypocritical to help Ray be a hero and peace out on the Arrow if it was Felicity's huge fear of loosing Oliver again, guiding her decisions. 

[jay741982]

I don't want it to happen either. I don't necessarily think it will happen, but it's possible.

 

Also I don't think it's necessarily hypocritical to help Ray be a hero and peace out on the Arrow if it was Felicity's huge fear of loosing Oliver again, guiding her decisions.

I get Felicity deeply loves Oliver but Ray is doing the same doing as Oliver basically so yeah her ditching Team Arrow to solely help creepy eyes do the same thing? Yeah that doesn't look hypocritical at all and I adore Felicity! Plus I'm tired of Ray only having scenes with her but MG thinks apparently we will like him

[slayer2]

Honestly I like Ray, I'm fine with Felicity helping him, although I wish they'd picked a different DC Hero since the Ray/Roy thing really confuses me. Sometimes I'll be reading a post and be like "What the fuck is this person talking about, Roy as an interloper?" Then I realize that I've been reading it Roy not Ray and I have to read the whole thing over again. Sigh.

Edited January 25, 2015 by slayer2

[kismet]

So I am an Olicity fan... cause it makes sense organically, physically, emotionally & mentally on the screen. Its undeniable in my eyes. They just fit together in the way they are written & performed. The interviews that have been given also seem to indicate that this Felicity might be the final destination on Oliver's hero's journey. But its a TV show, so I know in for a bumpy. Like I always say there really is no canon or endgame until you get a series finale date. That's when everything gets locked down.

 

So I also am/was/is a fan of Laurel. I personally think the last episode was the best written Laurel episode since beginning of S1. I actually liked her for her again. In S1 I was rooting for her to get back together with him at times, but that was before she seemed to be happier with Tommy, Sara came back (it got messy again), her life hit rock bottom and the writers decided they had no idea what to do with her character. Also some of KCs acting choices made it hard as well. But I think I was always rooting for her to get a better storyline. Laurels character started off good, but then sorta got lost. I was hoping that they could make her better this year. It seemed like they were on the right track. She got robbed of having quality scenes w/ Sara that showed how much that relationship meant to them. I also think they rushed her into the suit, perhaps they should have built it up more over the past few seasons. But I think they will show that its not that easy to be a vigilante - its more than throwing on a costume. I gonna put my faith in the writers that they will do her justice this time around. Which is why I don't think they will make her an obstacle or friction point between O&F. It doesn't make any sense on her journey or their journey. It would just stall any progress. I also think it will send some unnecessary vitriol towards her that has nothing to be with her, but more to do with some passionate fans inappropriately venting their frustrations that Olicity has been stalled. The comments get really hateful really quickly on some of these websites. Fandoms destroying each other, its really sad.

 

As for friends, I see F&L being friendly. I think they will likely bond over Sara, as they both knew different sides of her. L always struck me as the girl that was never really friends with girls, but was primarily surrounded by guys. So I can't see them being BFFs. I did appreciate L friendship w/ Thea and I would prefer they resurrect that. It could make it that much more dramatic when the truth comes out. But an organic drama. Like when MM realized who the arrow was. The moment of realization of how can I kill this person, whom I've known forever and consider family.

[kismet]

I've cooking this theory in my head since I heard the phrase "oliver queen is dead". After what I hope will be a happy reunion for at least a few minutes, I think Oliver is gonna have a heart to heart with Felicity. And I think it might go a little something like this...

 

The Oliver Queen you know is dead, I have decided that I can no longer try to be both, and I have decided that the Arrow is the only way I can survive and protect the ones I loved and my city. MM & LoA plan on seeking retribution and destroying everything. I can't be who I need to be and be Oliver Queen. It would somehow parallel his choices in S2 to put the hood back on, except this time buckle down & be like S1 Arrow. I think Felicity will have some obvious issues but will also realize that she can't go thru that much pain again losing the man she loved. I think she will tell him she loves him and because she loves him she understands his choices, but can't be around to watch him die again. It will be heart wrenching. Tears heard around the world. Twitter & tumblr may crash. But alas, we have been warned by JB that "OQ is dead".

 

Fast fwd through the next few episodes. Fights, kidnappings, beatings, longing stares/touches, justice being served. It'll be good just not pertinent to this post. We will reach the ultimate pinnacle of the hero's journey. The one who truly loved life's in jeopardy aka coma, almost death, very bad injury requiring hospitalization now we're in 318. OQ finally comes out of his post-death resurrection haze and realizes that he lost all this time that he could have spent with her. So he basically holds bedside vigils, which is why Mama Smoak becomes clued in on the feelings. Felicity wakes up in the last few minutes. Mama talks some sense into her. Show ends. 319 OQ & FS both now know they've been dumb, but they are also still afraid to hurt. So we're still at stand still. Move fwd to the 320s, someone saves OQ from the destruction. OQ fulfills whatever destiny he needs to emotionally resurrect OQ from the dead. Bet his father might come back in a dream & release him from his promise. Think it will be linked to Katana/Maseo. Now we're in the season finale territory, and my guess is that in the last few scenes we will get an actual emotionally charged reunion bwtn F&O, in which they actually decide to give it a try. End S3, everyone now go buy the comics. And hold tight in S4, we have a secret child and likely a returning father that will likely by EVIL.

[BkWurm1]

I like the idea of The Arrow or even just Oliver getting in the way of he and Felicity moving forward. Not that I like the lack of forward movement but if we are to have a stall, let it be consistent to the characters and Oliver coming back and in his mind nothing's changed would be infuriating.

Because of the odd way MG phrased his answer, I had been thinking the one getting in the way was Felicity but he did says yes to a third party, even if it was a reluctant yes, so dealing with an Arrow created issue would be reasonable.

MG also implied that Ra's would be still after Oliver so maybe he now does pull out the "it's too dangerous for us to be together" line. Something along the lines of:

"Ra's is going to be coming after me. I need the woman I love safe. "

"I don't want to be a woman you love."

I fear though, that the reality is going to be more rather than less traumatizing than speculation.

Edited to say, mix what I said with the above post. I like that spec about Oliver going full Arrow.

It fits with my ongoing crazy thought that at the end of the season he goes the opposite direction and goes full Oliver. (For a little while).

Edited January 25, 2015 by BkWurm1

[SonofaBiscuit]

I would find it immensely irritating if Oliver comes back and decides that he can only be The Arrow.  Because if thinking of Felicity as he draws his last "dying" breath isn't enough to make him actually get off his ass and do something about his feelings for her, then there is no hope for this dumb bastard.   

Edited January 25, 2015 by SonofaBiscuit

[kismet]

So one of my favorite Diggle scenes is when he & Oliver are in the elevator, and OQ literally refers to himself in the 3rd person (which he did quite frequently in S1 & early S2, not as much in S3, now he jsut sorta references having so duality identity issues). But Diggle says "You know I've been meaning to tell you that it weirds me out how you refer to yourself in the 3rd person". Very funny line. Love Diggle! The man came back from the dead twice, this is prime TV time to ask who am I? And why do I refer to myself as 2 different people? Cuz thats a little off, as Cupid's shrink hinted with her whole you might need some therapy.

 

Any who, that is why I think MG is getting all types of sneaky on the "person" that will come between them. This is the season I think where the OQ & the Arrow finally become 1 person and moving forward will be known at the Green Arrow. They've already killed OQ, I think the Arrow is gonna be killed this season as well. Perhaps there is no happy finale, no victory this year for the Arrow, only a defeat. And out of the ashes, with some help from Felicity & a few ghosts will emerge the true hero. Cuz I don't really see a victory lined up this season, I see perhaps a truce. But I dont see Ras or MM actually being defeated. Ras is legend and JB is just too conveniently  evil & connected to the characters (plus didnt he signed a multi-yr contract)

[SleepDeprived]

No! I refuse to accept kismet and BkWurm1's speculations! ;) Don't get me wrong, the ideas are solid and I could see it happening, even if I'll get really frustrated at Oliver continuing to be an idiot and not holding onto his life/people he cares about more after his very close brush with being totally dead-dead... Because if those specs happen, that would mean that we won't be seeing their relationship developments once again during the hiatus jump, guys! *whines* I really want to see Oliver and Felicity being happy, cute, sweet, touchy-feely, and flirty with each other for more than 20 minutes and, most importantly, on my television screen. NOT in the digital comics (which, by the way, the 2.5 comics still hasn't delivered on).
 

ohlverqueen asked:
Will the line "I don't want to be the woman you love" be in episode 12?

 

"A woman" you love.  But yes.

(x)

 

Well, there we go. We have actual confirmation now about when that line will be said. 3x12 - Uprising (mark your calendars, folks). I'm kinda wishing that it will be Rebecca to Malcolm in the flashback. But knowing that MG loves to use lines by or pertaining to Felicity to tease the fandom, plus that Felicity will have a really strong scene where she speaks up and is mad as hell, I guess it really will be her who'll be saying the line.

 

I hope the scene is good. And I hope it makes sense. Because that line really is awkward without any other context and has the potential of becoming overly melodramatic. If the "mad as hell" moment is directed at Oliver, I do hope they show Felicity (and Team Arrow) being, initially, happy that Oliver is alive before becoming conflicted and getting mad at him for whatever other reason. The dude did just almost die for his sister and kind of come back to life.

 

Also, we can all rest assured that the writers really do not think too much about some (or most) of their ideas other than 'this would be cool, do it, who cares if it makes no sense.' The curious case of the ADA's wandering fingerprints isn't all just because KC wanted her nail polish and lipstick to match. As evidenced by MG's very eloquent musing regarding the fingerless gloves conundrum (x):
 

volnixshin asked:
Hey Marc, why does laurels black canary uniform have fingerless gloves? Isn't that kind of redundant for a secret identity? Especially a lawyer

 

'Cause it looks cool.

 

By the way, anyone think that Akio, Maseo and Tatsu's son, might get killed in the flashbacks? And that's what led to Maseo entering the LoA and being estranged from Tatsu? I'm not sure if Tatsu is actually estranged from Maseo, in the present, but their interaction in Left Behind seemed a little strained, as though they haven't been in contact/seen each other for a long time.

Edited January 25, 2015 by SleepDeprived

[calliope1975]

I'm face palming over MG's fingerless glove answer. They're just not even trying anymore. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they kill a kid off next. Got to keep everything edgy with "real world" stakes. No one's safe dontcha know. /rolls eyes

[looptab]

Re: the BC costume and the lipstick/nail polish/fingerless gloves, I can sort of understand that they are afterall doing a tv show, that things have to "look good", that the show is about superheroes. So I can let go of the lipstick factor, since even Sara had eyeshadow on when she had the mask on, and it disappeared in the next shot if the mask came off. Same for Oliver and Roy. They never show them applying it, it's just part of the overall costume, so if I ignore it for others I can ignore it for her.

But the fingerless gloves are really ridiculous, and a bit too glaring a detail to overlook. Even in a show about leatherclad, disturbed individuals fighting crime with arrows. They never put much thought in this kind of things unless it's convenient for the plot, and it's a bit unnerving.

 

As for the third party between Oliver and Felicity, I don't know if I want it to be the Arrow. Isn'it enough that they recycle story beats from season to season, they have to do it within the same season, too? I don't know what would be the point of Oliver stating once again he can only be the Arrow, it wouldn't be progress in the arc should he turn back to his ep 301 position.(IMO)

Edited January 25, 2015 by looptab

[Morrigan2575]

I think the problem comes in when they actually make a point of something in the show, Arrow, Canary, Arsenal, Dark Archer, Nyssa all wear gloves in the show. We've also had Oliver point out a legitimate reason (in his mind/in show) as to why he didn't wear a mask (concerns of partial vision).

So to ignore fingerless gloves because "they're cool" does seem like they're not trying or just don't care. If this truly was something KC fought them on and they gave her the fingerless gloves so she could show off her nail polish...it doesn't reflect well on any of them, it also makes me wonder if they care about substance or just flash/style

Smallville was like that, all flash/shiny/style it's why it was so bad (IMO).

Edited January 25, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[quarks]

Because if thinking of Felicity as he draws his last "dying" breath isn't enough to make him actually get off his ass and do something about his feelings for her, then there is no hope for this dumb bastard.

 

 

Well, not until the much more hopeful month of May :)

[jay741982]

I've cooking this theory in my head since I heard the phrase "oliver queen is dead". After what I hope will be a happy reunion for at least a few minutes, I think Oliver is gonna have a heart to heart with Felicity. And I think it might go a little something like this...

 

The Oliver Queen you know is dead, I have decided that I can no longer try to be both, and I have decided that the Arrow is the only way I can survive and protect the ones I loved and my city. MM & LoA plan on seeking retribution and destroying everything. I can't be who I need to be and be Oliver Queen. It would somehow parallel his choices in S2 to put the hood back on, except this time buckle down & be like S1 Arrow. I think Felicity will have some obvious issues but will also realize that she can't go thru that much pain again losing the man she loved. I think she will tell him she loves him and because she loves him she understands his choices, but can't be around to watch him die again. It will be heart wrenching. Tears heard around the world. Twitter & tumblr may crash. But alas, we have been warned by JB that "OQ is dead".

 

Fast fwd through the next few episodes. Fights, kidnappings, beatings, longing stares/touches, justice being served. It'll be good just not pertinent to this post. We will reach the ultimate pinnacle of the hero's journey. The one who truly loved life's in jeopardy aka coma, almost death, very bad injury requiring hospitalization now we're in 318. OQ finally comes out of his post-death resurrection haze and realizes that he lost all this time that he could have spent with her. So he basically holds bedside vigils, which is why Mama Smoak becomes clued in on the feelings. Felicity wakes up in the last few minutes. Mama talks some sense into her. Show ends. 319 OQ & FS both now know they've been dumb, but they are also still afraid to hurt. So we're still at stand still. Move fwd to the 320s, someone saves OQ from the destruction. OQ fulfills whatever destiny he needs to emotionally resurrect OQ from the dead. Bet his father might come back in a dream & release him from his promise. Think it will be linked to Katana/Maseo. Now we're in the season finale territory, and my guess is that in the last few scenes we will get an actual emotionally charged reunion bwtn F&O, in which they actually decide to give it a try. End S3, everyone now go buy the comics. And hold tight in S4, we have a secret child and likely a returning father that will likely by EVIL.

@Kismet I like the post but the selfish Oliciter that i am I really want to hook up with like a couple episodes left. That way Oliciters can get first sexy time between them lol. They already disappointed Oliciters but not showing them getting closer and amping up the flirting instead using that Damn comic series

[tv echo]

Regarding Arrow staying so dark - I wonder if the EPs are interpreting the success of The Flash differently than we are?  I think a lot of people enjoy watching The Flash because it's a lighter, more fun show.  But what if the EPs think it's more successful because it introduces a lot of new comic characters every week?  And that's why they're going in the direction of getting as many new comic superheroes and villains on Arrow as they can pry out of DC Comics, while still keeping Arrow dark to The Flash's light?

 

I find the EPs' strategy for the upcoming episodes fascinating.  It's the "spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down" strategy.  To keep ratings up, they interject scenes with popular characters into episodes that are heavy on unpopular characters.

[dtissagirl]

I think the doom and gloom is a direct response to Flash -- they wanted to keep the shows tonally different, and because Flash is lighter, they depressed the fuck out of Arrow.

I sort of get it that they'd be making the exact same show twice, if those first 20 minutes of 301 *were* the overall tone in Arrow. And the crossover also proved it, since what they did there was infuse lightness and humor and *hope* on the Arrow episode, instead of angsting the Flash one. The Arrow ep felt like a Flash ep. But I think they overcompensated the angst, I guess because Guggenheim is not exactly into subtlety. He seems to enjoy on the nose storytelling, so angst is ANGST.

[Morrigan2575]

I think the doom and gloom is a direct response to Flash -- they wanted to keep the shows tonally different, and because Flash is lighter, they depressed the fuck out of Arrow.

I sort of get it that they'd be making the exact same show twice, if those first 20 minutes of 301 *were* the overall tone in Arrow. And the crossover also proved it, since what they did there was infuse lightness and humor and *hope* on the Arrow episode, instead of angsting the Flash one. The Arrow ep felt like a Flash ep. But I think they overcompensated the angst, I guess because Guggenheim is not exactly into subtlety. He seems to enjoy on the nose storytelling, so angst is ANGST.

pretty sure MG said as much back in March/April 2014, that they were going to keep the tone of the shows very different. They were also quite proud of themselves and highlighted it in the Flarrow crossover.

[dtissagirl]

Watching the Nocking Point video posted at the Behind the Mask thread, Stephen's fan reaction predictions go:

 

311: Ehhhhhh + deflates

312: YEEEEAH-- Oooh *disappoint*

313: WAIT, THEY'RE WHERE???

314: Booyah!

315: shocked/deadpan + Wait, what?

 

I feel like he's talking about the very last scene in each episode here? The "wait, they're where?" made me think of 313 setting up a cliffhanger for 314. So either someone is in the Island and it relates to Slade, or the cliffhanger is flashback bound, and Oliver and Maseo are in Starling City at the end of 313 to set up flashback-heavy 314.

[looptab]

I think it could be Thea and Malcolm on the island. I seem to recall a picture of WH in what seemed the outside of Slade's cell. (I could be wrong,though. I wouldn't even know where to find that pic for reference, now).

[dtissagirl]

I think it could be Thea and Malcolm on the island. I seem to recall a picture of WH in what seemed the outside of Slade's cell. (I could be wrong,though. I wouldn't even know where to find that pic for reference, now).

 

Oooh, right, I totally forgot about that, thank you! :)

 

MG did say 313 would set up something that made sense for Slade to return. I'm now sort of wondering about that spec that Douchey DJ is Slade's son Joe.