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Spoiler Discussion Thread


Morrigan2575
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I think laurel will be successful in the most superficial way. Badass characters are less boring, it makes Laurel more interesting because she isn't sitting in a corner weeping anymore, and she'll be tied to the main plot now so she's not useless.

She's still boring to me. Give me Oliver Felicity and Diggle any day they are a lot more interesting than Single white Female Black Canary

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Honestly, I don't think it'll matter if she can sell it or not. She'll be in the costume, and that's all some people care about.

 

I think tomorrow, after she suits up, there will be a lot of "I never really liked Laurel, but I'm digging this!" kind of comments. Obviously, I'm prepared to be wrong, but if I had to bet? I'd say that's exactly what's going to happen.

I think you're absolutely right about this. It doesn't matter how illogical everything about Laurel's zippy journey to BC has been, people will see the shiny black vinyl and buckles and think "About time!" Fine. Whatever. KC can be Blech Canary; for me, Caity Lotz/Sara Lance will forever be my Black Canary. I'm just going to pretend that Laurel finally had her psychotic break, Sara Lance is still alive, Oliver never "died" and he and Felicity got to flirt and date and have a real relationship and Thea wised up to Malcolm's manipulations and this whole season 3 has just been one big delusion. I can pretend, right?

I still think Arrow can be a good show, but it's so frustrating because it could be really great. 

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She will still be lame as always. A mask is not character development.

But that's the thing, not everyone cares about character development. That's why I said she'll be successful superficially in the eyes of the casual viewers. 

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 If she has a six-year, it probably has a liquidated damages clause, which would be some amount less than just keeping her the whole time.  It would be terrible negotiating, after all, to make your cost to breach the exact same as the cost not to breach. 

 

 

I think laurel will be successful in the most superficial way. Badass characters are less boring, it makes Laurel more interesting because she isn't sitting in a corner weeping anymore, and she'll be tied to the main plot now so she's not useless.  

 

I suspect that being the Black Canary will make her interesting enough that if there is a liquidated damages clause, they won't use it and will keep her there, because her value, while not what they paid for, is enough to be more than the damages.

Edited by statsgirl
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But that's the thing, not everyone cares about character development. That's why I said she'll be successful superficially in the eyes of the casual viewers. 

 

I don't doubt you're right that a certain amount of people won't care about the how of Laurel's story, at least she's doing something. But the problem will come episode after episode of Laurel as black Canary. Laurel in the foundry, Laurel in the field, Laurel in the courtroom, Laurel bossing people around, Laurel lying to her father, on and on than what happens? It's not like they can keep her dressed up in her outfit 100% of the time. 

 

I liked Sara. I liked Sara fighting beside the Arrow. I loved Sara fighting to protect women. I stopped liking Sara when I couldn't get away from her. When my Team Arrow stopped having scenes together because she was there, when the show changed to Arrow + Black Canary (yeah I know just Canary but I'm not giving that up). Even a likeable character when they are over saturated becomes unlikeable.

 

So even if the writers learned their lesson and Laurel will still only appear for 5-10 minutes on screen per episode, the audience already has a short tolerance for her. Once the "oh Laurel is finally doing something" wears off what will the audience due than? 

 

This isn't a two or three hour movie where things that annoy you don't have a chance to really get under your skin; this is episode after episode of a problematic character and a actress that doesn't fit the part. 

 

Ratings dropped in the back half of Season 2 when the focus went off the characters that most of the audience loves and started including outsiders. So far they have managed to keep people hanging on, in part by keeping Laurel sidelined in her own story and missing almost all of 3 episodes and turning Roy into a mute. Now they are going to push those two forward and insert Laurel into the Team dynamic where imo she never fits.

 

That's the problem I see going forward. A few episodes, people will hold on. What happens after that is anyone's guess but imo Laurel fatigue is going to set in quickly.

  • Love 22
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I agree, I don't think there will be a hugely negative reaction about Laurel. And  re: people who were known anti-Laurel that now seem to be willing to give her a chance, I think mostly it has to do with them realizing that "bad buzz=still buzz" . I have seen more and more people starting to adopt this philosophy, some to try and avoid being labeled as  "Olicity fans are Laurel-haters just because they feel their ship threatened", some have just lost the energy and resigned to this fate.

Anyway, the wait is almost over, and we'll find out soon :)

Edited by looptab
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Laurel's Black Canary will do well because they'll use an amazing stunt double for most of the fighting.

 

I don't think Laurel is going anywhere.  MG's Tumblr responses make it clear that the EPs are planning on having her Black Canary train more with different fight trainers and get better and better over the course of several years.  The Arrow EPs are riding high on the success of The Flash right now and probably have a lot of power at the CW Network.  So I think they'll have a lot of say over their shows.  Plus it's in their best interests to increase Laurel's popularity if they ever want a future BC or BOP spin-off in the future.

 

I like SA but I didn't like this statement by him (in his TV Line interview):

TVLINE | What do you have to say to fans who are concerned that we’re going to be betting[sic] a little less Oliver these next couple episodes?

I would say that if you’re a fan of the show, you’re a fan of the show because of the story that the writers and producers have crafted over 53, 54 episodes. You should just trust and be patient.

You can be a fan of the show and not like the story that has been told so far.  Also, there's almost an implication that you'll continue watching (the upcoming trilogy) if you're a fan of the show.

 

I actually think Ep. 3x10 will do quite well, ratings-wise, and that the EPs will consider that vindication that they're going in the right direction.

 

Regarding the discussion above about Slade Wilson coming after Felicity or Laurel again because he thinks one or the other is the one that Oliver loves (from the events in "Unthinkable").  I think he'd come after Felicity for no other reason than she was the one who jabbed him with the hypodermic needle and made it possible for Oliver to defeat him.

Edited by tv echo
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That laughable line by Laurel "I'm the justice you can't run away from!"...

 

So she loses in court, or the culprit walks because there has been some malpractice - and Laurel seeks help from Arrow (as always, she's game if she needs something from Oliver). With Arrow gone, Laurel "has no choice" but to deliver justice herself, and we all know justice is best served on heels in black leather with a lot of shiny buckles.

 

Still, my crazy mind just goes places and sees the whole conversation like this:
Crook: Who are you?!
Laurel: I'm the justice you can't run away from!
Crook: Justine?
Laurel: Justice! You know, like the one you escaped today, but now you can't!
Crook: Sorry, is you'r name "Justice"?
Laurel: No! I am justice! You can't...
Crook: yeah, yeah, run away from, I heard you the first time, I just thought it's kind of stupid. How fast can you actually run?
Laurel: ...

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Regarding KC's TCA statement that Laurel goes from "avenging her sister to honoring her sister to becoming her sister" -- I never understood that statement.  Laurel never avenged her sister (and never searched for Sara's killer).  Laurel never honored her sister because keeping Sara's death a secret, following Sara's path (which Sara would not have wanted) and taking on her identity is not exactly honoring her.   And Laurel becoming her younger sister is just creepy.

 

Anyway, MG seems to be backtracking on Laurel "becoming her sister" in this recent Tumblr posting:

mimozka asked:
hi MG, there's something that's been bothering me... In several junkets and press interviews there has been talk about LL "becoming her sister". I'm alright with her taking on the mantle and honoring Sara, but I have the feeling the "becoming her sister" is being taken very literally. I hope you are not trying to replace Sara with Laurel. You've gone to great pains to stress they're not the same Hero and it'd be insulting to both characters. I hope you do them justice.

 

No, it’s more like living up to her sister’s legacy.  I think 3x13 will shine a lot of light on this.

Edited by tv echo
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Every time I see or hear "I'm the justice you can't run away from!", I think Oh, how I miss "The Tick."   Because that line is incredibly cheesy but would be PERFECT on the Tick. (any fans out there?)

 

Unfortunately, I don't think the show will suffer in ratings due to an Oliver-less, Laurel-focused trilogy. Maybe a slight dip?  January isn't the strongest month for ratings anyway. 

 

Among many of the Twitter users I follow because of the show, there is chatter about going Twitter silent during the Laurel episodes.  No tweeting about ANYTHING to do with the show.  If Laurel is as popular as the show's EPs think or if there's a turnaround in excitement over her, then let those fans give the show some free publicity.

 

I do find it discouraging that the majority of FB comments I've seen that have been positive about Laurel becoming BC is about her fulfilling her comic book destiny. Very few comments, from what I've read, make a point of saying that this is a culmination of what she's been through - that it's earned and organic.  Rather, it seems that what we're going to be shown and written is merely a way to check an item off of a list.

 

I expect there will be more Laurel as BC in the promos in the coming weeks. Not interested, myself.

 

Isn't the Brick having his arc during this time frame too?  So perhaps we'll see more of him, too.  Seems like a lot of screen time (proposed, I doubt we'll actually see that much on screen) for a minor villain.

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Regarding KC's TCA statement that Laurel goes from "avenging her sister to honoring her sister to becoming her sister" -- I never understood that statement.  Laurel never avenged her sister (and never searched for Sara's killer).  Laurel never honored her sister because keeping Sara's death a secret, following Sara's path (which Sara would not have wanted) and taking on her identity is not exactly honoring her.   And Laurel becoming her younger sister is just creepy.

 

Yeah, the "avenging" part of it kills me, because Laurel told Ted she wanted to avenge Sara's death, and then never did, but apparently, saying you want to avenge something equals actually avenging something? This is par for the course for Laurel, even. She's getting knocked down in tonight's ep, isn't she? I'm thinking the "becoming her sister" part is also along these lines -- Laurel will think she can be her sister, get a wake up call, and then in 3x13 she'll hallucinate Sara telling her Laurel needs to do this for herself, or something.

 

 

Isn't the Brick having his arc during this time frame too?  So perhaps we'll see more of him, too.  Seems like a lot of screen time (proposed, I doubt we'll actually see that much on screen) for a minor villain.

 

I'm curious about Brick's screen time, too. I'm guessing he'll get more than the other rando villains of the week, if only because they have screentime to fill that would've usually gone to Oliver. I'm also expecting all of the action scenes to draaaaaag for longer than usual.

Edited by dancingnancy
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Yeah, the "avenging" part of it kills me, because Laurel told Ted she wanted to avenge Sara's death, and then never did, but apparently, saying you want to avenge something equals actually avenging something? This is par for the course for Laurel, even. She's getting knocked down in tonight's ep, isn't she? I'm thinking the "becoming her sister" part is also along these lines -- Laurel will think she can be her sister, get a wake up call, and then in 3x13 she'll hallucinate Sara telling her Laurel needs to do this for herself, or something.

 

 

I thought the "vengeance" ended when Laurel went to Ted's gym and he told her something along the lines of going after her sister's killer was a target that she was never going to hit and that she needed to do it herself, and that he saw that in her and that's when she'd really learn? And then he gave her the choice between a red shirt and a black shirt and she said, "Black. Definitely black."? So it was a very short-lived, inconsequential phase in her "journey," that going for vengeance thing. 

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Every time I see or hear "I'm the justice you can't run away from!", I think Oh, how I miss "The Tick."   Because that line is incredibly cheesy but would be PERFECT on the Tick. (any fans out there?)

 

It's a line that no self-respecting writer would ever put to paper, unless they were trying to be funny. And honestly, it's a line I'd expect any actor to frown over, go to the writer and say, 'I really don't think this works. I want my character to be taken seriously, here'. It just flat out doesn't work unless you're supposed to laugh at it. As has been pointed out quite adroitly in this thread, with people mocking it.

 

Also, it's the most wonderfully fucked up thing for a lawyer to say, as she's beating up people who she's presumably not been able to convict, in the dark and hidden by a mask. That's not justice, however you slice it. It's vengeance. If Laurel doesn't know the difference, then she needs to give up the day job. Is there any real chance that this whole three year arc of Laurel's will culminate in people stopping and saying, 'holy shit, this woman is completely insane!' and having her locked up alongside Blood's mother in an asylum? I really think that's where she belongs.

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I think it's how you interpret the line "avenging her sister to honoring her sister to becoming her sister".  When I first heard it, it sounded like a done deal - like Laurel first avenged Sara, then honored her and finally is becoming her.  It would've been clearer if the line was "Laurel goes from seeking vengeance for her sister to honoring her sister to becoming her sister."

 

As for the "I'm the justice that you can't run away from" line - I think it could work if said the right way by the right person and in the right context.  However, as Danny Franks noted above, it's a problem when Laurel - an ADA - is essentially acting as judge, jury and executioner.  Sure, there's sometimes clear cases where the obviously guilty bad guy goes free, so you might root for someone going vigilante and imposing street justice.  But sometimes someone may appear guilty but actually be innocent.  That's why we have a justice system set up to protect the innocent who's wrongfully accused (presumed innocent until proven guilty?), with a prosecutor, a defense lawyer, a judge and sometimes a jury.  Oliver did the same thing in season 1 when he went after the bad guys on his father's list, but it was Team Arrow - specifically Felicity - who got him to stop and think about what he was doing (that episode where she tried to lock him in the Arrowcave because the bad guy he was going after had a kid).  I wonder if Laurel's BC is actually going to kill any bad guys, or just beat them up (but what does that accomplish?), or try to capture them and leave them for the police?  She's killed before with apparently no regrets, so it wouldn't be the first time.

Edited by tv echo
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But if the crooks got away from justice - ergo, were deemed innocent / not guilty - she cannot leave them for the police. They are, in the legal sense of the word, innocent.

 

Therefore she beats them up.

For justice.

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But if the crooks got away from justice - ergo, were deemed innocent / not guilty - she cannot leave them for the police. They are, in the legal sense of the word, innocent.

 

Therefore she beats them up.

For justice.

 

So in this interpretation, 'justice' actually means, 'to make Laurel feel better about losing her case'? Yeah, not a good look for even the most sympathetic character. And let's face it, Laurel is not even remotely sympathetic anyway.

 

If the showrunner was promising, 'Laurel tries to do this, gets her ass kicked and gets charged with assault by the poor man who was just found not guilty. She gets fitted with an electronic ankle tag, and never attempts to be a vigilante again', I might actually watch just for the giggles.

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But if the crooks got away from justice - ergo, were deemed innocent / not guilty - she cannot leave them for the police. They are, in the legal sense of the word, innocent.

 

Therefore she beats them up.

For justice.

Bahahahahahahaha.

And this pretty much sums up the idiocy of all of this. And why it ruins the entire verse.

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I'll laugh Laurel loses the case and wasn't due to malpractice, then it's essentially her idiocy that helped the the bad guy. She probably should stop spending her nights boxing and start spending her nights working through her cases if she ever wants to win in a court room. Honestly though. The show treats being a lawyer like it's a job that ends at 6pm when it clearly isn't. 

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Well, Laurel has shown the viewers time and time again that she is completely devoid of common sense so I have given up expecting anything sensible or reasonable from her.

I am really curious to know how Oliver will react to Laurel's vigilantism once he returns. He has evolved his stance on revenge and killing and was actively trying to redeem himself and aim for a higher goal besides pure revenge. So, while Oliver can understand Laurel's feelings and desire for vengeance, he also knows that ultimately it is an empty victory. Look what it did to Slade.

And will Oliver see that Laurel's need for revenge won't be quenched easily? I see her as never being able to put out that fire. Will she escalate to killing? I could easily picture that. I wish Laurel would trust Oliver; he knows what he's talking about.

I really cannot fathom how KC's fans see Laurel as this big hearted hero - is there a Kool-Aid they drink or something? I can't see her as anything but a whiny, self-absorbed, narcissistic woman-child who paints herself as a victim, unappreciated by the world, abandoned by her loved ones.

Edited by Menrva
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I'll laugh Laurel loses the case and wasn't due to malpractice, then it's essentially her idiocy that helped the the bad guy. She probably should stop spending her nights boxing and start spending her nights working through her cases if she ever wants to win in a court room. 

 

I read somewhere that evidence was being stolen? Not sure where that came from, but I've seen it referred to several times. Maybe that's the guy who's stealing the evidence? I'm really, really trying to give the show the benefit of the doubt until I see how it goes down, even though maybe I shouldn't.

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I wonder if Oliver's headstone is still standing in the cemetery - like Sara's headstone apparently still was, even after 7 years and her 'welcome home' party...

 

960.jpg

http://www.avclub.com/article/oliver-queen-dead-long-live-oliver-queen-214122

 

By the way, the writer of that article is kinda snarky (I like it!):

R.I.P. Oliver Queen. He saved the world. A little. So now that Arrow is most likely all about Roy Harper and his love of unnecessary flips, what’s next Arsenal and his sidekicks? According to the the episode description, everyone’s favorite character, Laurel, is finally taking up the mantel of Black Canary! Meanwhile, Felicity refuses to believe that Oliver is dead. Come on, Felicity—didn’t you hear? The show is about Roy now. Dead things stay dead, especially in comic book-based entertainment. Reviewer and real life comic book villain Alasdair Wilkins will set her straight.
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The interview with DR posted in the SPOILERS ONLY thread is a pretty good read, especially his comment about how they had to make him a special Arrow suit so he didn't bust out of it. 

 

And this: 

 

 

 

David Ramsey: Yeah, I think some of that’s going to be coming up. The full fledged A.T.O.M. will be part of Starling City, so yeah, they will have some run-ins for sure.

 

I know there are all kinds of repercussions to this but all I can think of after seeing the stills from 3x10 is please don't let this suit look as stupid as that arm armor thingy suggests. Please. 


I wonder if Oliver's headstone is still standing in the cemetery - like Sara's headstone apparently still was, even after 7 years and her 'welcome home' party...

 

Nah, Oliver had his removed in S1, IIRC. That Sara thing though, continued sloppiness of the most disgusting kind. 

Edited by apinknightmare
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She’s brought in a lot by Roy and Roy really has her back because the dynamic between Laurel and Oliver has been so tricky since the beginning, from love to the family dynamic together. We need all the help we can get. There are too many cooks in the kitchen and we have to hit the ground running. It’s hard because everyone is dealing with other emotional aspects of things besides Oliver and that’s going to be really fun for the fans to see because we can’t just drop our own shit. We have to keep moving forward and personally that’s going to be difficult, especially for Thea. She’s just getting the bad end of the stick all the time.

I see i am gonna hate you Roy.

Wondering if the ratings for Arrow will be that great, since even Flash returned with a series low.

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I see i am gonna hate you Roy.

Wondering if the ratings for Arrow will be that great, since even Flash returned with a series low.

 

I think it'll be helped by the fact that Oliver "died" and people will tune in to see if he returns. They'll still be January norm low though, I think. I'm curious about what they'll be next week. 

 

I liked his interview with IGN - he gave a ton of stuff away. Not huge stuff, but...stuff that's good to know. And I like that he said Laurel doesn't really know what she's doing with her "baton." I hope that's legit, although I'm sure it won't last very long.

Also, from CH's EW interview over in the SPOILERS ONLY thread:

 

 

 

ETonline: Is he moving on from Thea romantically?

Haynes: There was a storyline that didn’t happen – I can say this – that put Roy in a very romantic setting with someone on the team. Who knows if that’s going to happen, but it hasn’t happened yet. That’s all I can say. So look for awkward eye movements!

 

Uh...what

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Haynes: There was a storyline that didn’t happen – I can say this – that put Roy in a very romantic setting with someone on the team. Who knows if that’s going to happen, but it hasn’t happened yet. That’s all I can say. So look for awkward eye movements!

 

 

Huh?!  Who are they talking about here?!  

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I think the low ratings on the return stems a lot from the fact that these mid-season breaks absolutely kill momentum. People stop watching the network as much while they look for new stuff, which means many will miss commercials, not knowing when the show is coming back and may miss the first airing. 

 

Laurel: "I'm the justice you can't run away from."

She realizes, while saying this, the guy is in fact running away.

Laurel: "Hey!"

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I thought maybe Sin, but she's not really a part of the team, and she's only back for one episode as far as I know.  Laurel and Roy?  That's all kinds of bizarre and sounds terrible in a possibly entertaining way.

 

 

Haha, it would be mortifyingly entertaining. Like...I would tune in for that? I'm sad it was scrapped (hopefully not for good).

Edited by apinknightmare
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Has there been any further speculation as to what information Sin could have about Sara's murder? Since the team has been hiding it from almost everyone I'll be curious to see how she could even know.

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My first thought was that KC used to date Jesse McCartney and he is about the same size as CH. Now I kinda want it to happen because at the very least it would be entertaining and confirm the soap opera that is LL's life with dating the ex-boyfriend of her ex-boyfriend's little sister who also killed her sister.

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I thought I heard that EBR and CH are dating IRL?

 

This is not happening.

 

Laurel and Roy...also no. But yeah, that would be hilarious from a visual perspective.

 

I do like Colton Haynes a lot, and that alone makes me more interested in Roy's story this season. Those interviews makes me hopeful about that, and about Thea too.

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The only thing I can think w sin is she's like "ummm, you aren't the canary"

I will die if she's the one who tells Quentin.

Roy and laurel. I can't. Can not. This show is just going to end up being ludicrous. So much so that I won't be able to even rage over it anymore.

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Roy and laurel. I can't. Can not. This show is just going to end up being ludicrous. So much so that I won't be able to even rage over it anymore.

 

Well, since CH said the storyline was scrapped, it probably won't ever happen. But if it is intended to be Laurel, oh god, I would love that so much. I would actually specifically tune in for that. 

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The only two people it could be is Felicity and Laurel and both options are completely ludicrous to me. For Felicity - her love life is not complicated enough - great let's add a third guy to the mix! For Laurel, the age difference alone makes it laughable. It'd be one if they were both older, but 28 or 29 year old Laurel, practicing attorney, with a guy barely out of his teens? (Actually, IS he out of his teens?) Yeah no.

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The only two people it could be is Felicity and Laurel and both options are completely ludicrous to me. For Felicity - her love life is not complicated enough - great let's add a third guy to the mix! For Laurel, the age difference alone makes it laughable. It'd be one if they were both older, but 28 or 29 year old Laurel, practicing attorney, with a guy barely out of his teens? (Actually, IS he out of his teens?) Yeah no.

 

Well, to be fair he didn't say anything would come of it, just that they'd be in a romantic situation (someone falls on the other during training? someone turns their head and their lips are really close to the other persons?). Could be something played for laughs or a generally awkward encounter that made things uncomfortable for a few eps. I think something like that would be kind of fun to watch as long as it didn't involve Felicity. She's already got enough on her plate.

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Maybe it was supposed to be Sin (I know, not really a team member) but BTK became a regular on some MTV show so they had to scrap another love interest on this show.  I guess we need to be on the lookout for awkward eye movements?  Now if we could only find a regular job for BR.

Edited by Sunshine
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I think he said the storyline has been scrapped for now but we might still see some awkward eye movements.  It could have been him having romantic feelings.  It doesn't mean they would be reciprocated.

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Way back at SDCC Colton was saying Roy was getting another romantic interest this season. I agree with @Sunshine -- I think it would have been Sin, but then Bex got the pilot.

 

But Roy/Laurel would make me watch so hard, now I want it to happen. Endless point and laugh potential, OH MY GOD GIMME.

Edited by dancingnancy
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lol CH is always giving random stuff away, Romantic storyline that was scrapped? That just sounds ridiculous.   I'm just going to pretend he never said that. 


Well, to be fair he didn't say anything would come of it, just that they'd be in a romantic situation (someone falls on the other during training? someone turns their head and their lips are really close to the other persons?). Could be something played for laughs or a generally awkward encounter that made things uncomfortable for a few eps. I think something like that would be kind of fun to watch as long as it didn't involve Felicity. She's already got enough on her plate.

oh this kinda makes sense lol. I think this is what he meant. 

Edited by ban1o
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