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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Spoiler Discussion Thread

Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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ostentatious

ostentatious

(edited)

I hope Vertigo has another new drug. I don't have any interest in seeing the same one again. I don't care about people's worst fears. They manifest as dream sequences so nothing actually happens. This show has enough flashbacks, which to me are similarly inert since nothing HAPPENS, it's just information. If it's a drug let it cause something to HAPPEN.

Edited by ostentatious
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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

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Oliver's focused, "get your head in the game" attitude is really stark in comparison to team Flash. To the point where one would think he needs to let the air out of his tyres. But he's pretty much always like that, since ep 2 this season, and before.

I just really can't wait until Oliver isn't so uptight. Poor thing.

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Ariah

Ariah

Oliver's focused, "get your head in the game" attitude is really stark in comparison to team Flash. To the point where one would think he needs to let the air out of his tyres. But he's pretty much always like that, since ep 2 this season, and before.

I just really can't wait until Oliver isn't so uptight. Poor thing.

 

But whenever he unwinds, something bad happens. When he sleeps with McKenna, she is hurt. When he sleeps with Laurel, Tommy dies. When he mends fences with Moira and gets her appreciation for being a hero - she dies. When he opens up to Felicity - their date goes up in flames... It's almost a pattern and after a while a guy may think he doesn't get to be happy.

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KirkB

KirkB

I'd have to go back and watch the episode again, but did Cupid really do anything THAT impressive? The cops and the guy we saw her shoot were standing still right in front of her. Six months of psychotic practicing, which she was easily capable of, could easily have allowed her to be good enough with a bow to hit non moving targets a stones throw away. Unless she was doing the kind of running, pinpoint target shooting we've seen Oliver do, an already athletic person who spent every waking moment they could practicing to impress their 'boyfriend' could wind up with some skills.

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But whenever he unwinds, something bad happens. When he sleeps with McKenna, she is hurt. When he sleeps with Laurel, Tommy dies. When he mends fences with Moira and gets her appreciation for being a hero - she dies. When he opens up to Felicity - their date goes up in flames... It's almost a pattern and after a while a guy may think he doesn't get to be happy.

And that I leave squarely at the writers' feet. The reason he can't be the Arrow and Oliver is because they don't want him to. Until they do, it's misery is pleasure for this guy.

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Guest

Guest

And that I leave squarely at the writers' feet. The reason he can't be the Arrow and Oliver is because they don't want him to. Until they do, it's misery is pleasure for this guy.

 

Yeah, I agree, and it's boring. I will say that I am rooting for Oliver's happiness now more than ever because I just want him to have a break at this point. He deserves something. But keeping him so unhappy feels more orchestrated for plot reasons than ever before. 

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

And that I leave squarely at the writers' feet. The reason he can't be the Arrow and Oliver is because they don't want him to. Until they do, it's misery is pleasure for this guy.

The main reason I'm interested in Oliver's dealings with Ra's and the LoA is that depending on how that goes, it'll prove -- or, hopefully, DISPROVE -- my worst fear: that this season, they're really writing Batman instead of Green Arrow.

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KirkB

KirkB

Maybe that's why the show has gone downhill for a lot of people. Because the EP's have gone beyond bitter that they're not allowed to make their own TV version of Batman Begins and they're just tired of hiding it?

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statsgirl

statsgirl

Maybe not bitter but idolizing Batman Begins and (inadvertantly?) reproducing it themselves?

 

 

I'd have to go back and watch the episode again, but did Cupid really do anything THAT impressive? 

She took down Roy.  I'll leave it to you to decide if it's impressive.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

I'm on Team Barry.

Oliver strolls into Flash's town uninvited and presumes to tell Barry how to be a super hero? Kick his ass Barry.

He'll probably save the asskicking for after Oliver and team assist him in catching the bad guy. Since Barry, you know, asked him for help.

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statsgirl

statsgirl

I'm getting really really tired of the writers beating down Oliver so much.  Come on, guys, think of something new for those big bucks.

 

Has there been ANYTHING in the spoilers about Laurel trying to find Sara's killer?

 

No but why should there be?  The point of this whole storyling is not to really find Sara's killer but for Laurel to be justified in beating up people, either with a bat or her fists.

If this was any other show the natural resolution of this stupid story is that Laurel sucks at being a vigilante. She has a run in with Vertigo and hallucinates Sara, who kicks her ass and forces Laurel to realize she's just copying her sister and that to be her own person Laurel has to find out how she contributes best. Which, based on history is by working with TA but on the legal side. so Laurel goes back to being a DA after realizing there are other ways to being a hero besides putting on a mask....but noooo, Comics!

Because this can't be said enough.    And I think that would actually make a better story.

 

I don't want to hope too much but EP interviews have made me wonder if this is not exactly what they're gonna do. Laurel will try being a vigilante, fail miserably and realize she can do more good on the legal side of the law -- and away from Team Arrow.

No, I think they love the idea of Laurel as the Black Canary too much. What they'll have is Laurel trying and failing, then continue trying and finally succeed and rise to her comic book glory.  That way they take care of the complaints that it's happening too fast, and meet the KC fans expectations.  

For me, the only thing worse than a Laurel/BC origin story from scratch is to have it run on and on and on.

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Starfish35

Starfish35

From the standpoint of someone who is no longer watching (except for Laurel-lite episodes), I have to admit that I'm really curious about where they think they're going with her with all of this. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that she's actually going to give up on being Black Canary - they wouldn't have killed off Sara for Laurel to be Black Canary for five minutes. But I don't see where the path forward is for her from "Canaries". To me, what makes sense is that she realizes she needs to find her own way to becoming a superhero, away from what Oliver is and Sara was, and thus leaves the show to pursue her own path. But I doubt that's what they're actually going for, so where does that leave us? They've said she's not going to be a great fighter, so....what? She's the team rookie? ADA by day and Arrow sidekick by night? That's just an odd picture. SMH. I don't know.

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wingster55

wingster55

What difference does it make? He asked Oliver for help; doesn't matter when he did it since obviously Oliver's (and Diggle and Felicity's) presence isn't unwelcome.

 

The difference is, Barry asked for help once Oliver was already there. He didn't ask for Oliver's opinion/advice on how to be a hero (based on what we know)

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

The difference is, Barry asked for help once Oliver was already there. He didn't ask for Oliver's opinion/advice on how to be a hero (based on what we know)

 

The Arrow team goes to Central City tracking a villain that showed up at the end of the last episode of Arrow. When Barry finds out they're there, he asks Oliver if he'd like to help him track down a guy who's robbing banks in Central City. Oliver isn't there to give Barry advice on how to be a hero (although I suspect he does, per the synopsis) - he's there to track someone who's killing people in Starling City. It's not like he's there barging in on Barry's territory. He was there doing his own thing when Barry asked him if he wanted to help. 

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wingster55

wingster55

(edited)
Oliver isn't there to give Barry advice on how to be a hero (although I suspect he does, per the synopsis)

 

That's the point though...he does. Regardless of initial intentions or not. Additionally Oliver's idea of training is shooting an Arrow in Barry's back.

...

Edited by wingster55
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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

That's the point though...he does. Regardless of initial intentions or not. Additionally Oliver's idea of training is shooting an Arrow in Barry's back.

...

 

Well the way you phrased your original comment implied that Oliver was somehow barging in on Barry's territory unwelcome (which he isn't). And we don't know what Oliver's idea of training involves since we haven't seen the show yet, and that one scene where Oliver's telling Barry he's going to shoot him has no context whatsoever. 

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

Additionally Oliver's idea of training is shooting an Arrow in Barry's back.

 

Which is horrible but hilarious.  :) Apparently Oliver has been thinking about putting an arrow in him for a long time. 

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Danny Franks

Danny Franks

(edited)

So what that sneak peek tells me is that Barry needs the smug wiped off his face in the worst way. Oliver trained for five years to be what he became, Barry got everything in an instant, without ever working for it at all. One thing I always loved about DC comics was how the likes of Batman and Nightwing could keep up with metahumans, through sheer fitness, training and force of will. That's what needs to happen with Oliver and Barry.

 

It probably won't, because these writers seem to hate Oliver.

 

On the plus side, this is the first time Barry hasn't seemed like the most vanilla of people. It's a shame the first flash of real personality is that of douchebag. If his mind is altered? Eh, he's still thinking that stuff, somewhere deep down.

Edited by Danny Franks
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catrox14

catrox14

Barry called Oliver for advice at the end of The Calm and he went to help him no questions asked. Oliver didn't go to Central City to advise Barry. Barry again asked for his help when Oliver was in town. Without knowing the context of why Oliver shot Barry I'll withhold judgment.

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wingster55

wingster55

In the season opener of both shows we saw Barry go to Starling City to get advice from Oliver on how to be a hero when he first got his superspeed.

 

I feel that was a bit of a different scenario. For instance...Barry actually wanted Oliver's advice.

 

On the plus side, this is the first time Barry hasn't seemed like the most vanilla of people.

 

I think he hasn't been "vanilla" in Flash 1.01 to 1.07

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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

He is so obnoxious.  It's great.  Good for Grant Gustin, I'd want to kick his ass too.

 

However, we do see it in context -- Oliver wants to keep Barry from getting killed.

 

 

I feel that was a bit of a different scenario. For instance...Barry actually wanted Oliver's advice.

People who care about you don't give you advice only when you want it -- they give it when they think you need it.

Edited by statsgirl
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Danny Franks

Danny Franks

Yeah, I'll just reiterate, Oliver needs to kick his arse in a big way.

 

Anyone see the old Justice League issue where Batman stood there, listened to Guy Gardner yell at him for a couple of minutes, then just knocked him unconscious with a single punch? That's what needs to happen to Barry.

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catrox14

catrox14

In essence..how does Sally help Oliver be a better hero?

I'm still on Barry's side mind!whammy or not

Because it's a demonstration and symbol of his physical strength and agility that was frakking earned from 5 years of training on the island from Hell, which helps him defeat villains.

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calliope1975

calliope1975

By Barry's own admission, lightning gave him abs. Oliver earned every hard, hot muscle on his body and Sally's an integral part of maintaining my eye candy. She deserves respect. While I'm not disputing Oliver's douchiness towards Barry, it doesn't mean he's wrong. Does Oliver insult the treadmill? And if Barry makes a peep about Fern, it is on!

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wingster55

wingster55

Does Oliver insult the treadmill?

 

No but he somehow finds the term "meta-human" silly..also with Rogues names. 

 

Because it's a demonstration and symbol of his physical strength and agility that was frakking earned from 5 years of training on the island from Hell,

 

Some great training he's doing right now in China flashbacks

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catrox14

catrox14

No but he somehow finds the term "meta-human" silly..also with Rogues names. 

 

Some great training he's doing right now in China flashbacks

The Hong Kong flashbacks do not negate the time on the island from Hell and the training. The time in Hong Kong does not erase or lessen the symbolism of Sally. The first Hong Kong flashback showed him running for his life through a market. Pretty sure we'll see Oliver do some parkour in Hong Kong before it's all said and done.

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Kymmi

Kymmi

I think I will really enjoy Barry giving Oliver a hard time - but only if Oliver comes out on top in the end.  As others have mentioned, he's been too beat up this season.  Oliver needs a win.  I wonder if Barry will taunt Oliver with Felicity coming to see him/kissing him?  That's likely a bit too far, given the Ray/Felicity kiss just last episode.  

 

VERY interested in the spoiler about the Felicity/Wells interaction that gets cut short.  I can't wait for that.  He knows something about Felicity - she's an important piece to his puzzle somehow.  

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Kymmi

Kymmi

What was the spoiler about Felicity and Wells? All I heard was that their interaction could be described as 'tense.'

 

It was from the TVLine article that was linked in the Spoilers Only thread.  Here's a quote from it on Wells/Felicity

 

 

Even “Felicity’s Arrow The Flash Crossover Spoilershairs stick up a little bit” during a scene with the mysterious scientist, Emily Bett Rickards says. “But it’s taken away so quickly by another urgent matter that it almost gets pushed under the rug.”

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