Spoiler Discussion Thread

[writersblock51]

In MG's interview last night he made some remark about after 3.08 he realized that metahumans could work on Arrow so he was back to never say never.  I assume Captain Boomerang is a metahuman since he is a Flash villain.  I have to wonder if at some point in the future Laurel goes to CC comes in contact with something residual from the particle accelerator explosion and ends up with her canary cry.  It worked in 3.08 so now we can have some super powers in show kind of attitude.  Not sure they would go there with shrinking though.

 

That could end up being another solid reason for me to stop watching the show.  One big reason I bought into it from the beginning was that it was far more grounded in reality than I was expecting.  I'd been familiar with the comics long enough to know what the show COULD have done and I was more than happy to see the result was something different. Yet also familiar because of the characters.

 

I went into "The Flash" with meta-human being a hugely accepted part of the show. I

 

I appreciate that the shows can co-exist with the glaring difference.  But if Arrow pulls in and keeps meta-human (while Oliver is still a very human Green Arrow/Arrow), then why bother.

 

If Nyssa comes on a regular, I can see her as Black Canary. And then I'd rather have HER head up a spin off with the Huntress and they find their own Oracle.

Edited November 24, 2014 by writersblock51

[apinknightmare]

I'll take the counterargument and say that this show has setup plenty of groundwork for Thea to go evil - we were chatting about that over the summer, after all - and I'm willing to buy that Thea would be willing/able to kill. Whether or not it makes sense for an evil Thea to kill Sara is another question entirely.

 

I feel like the only groundwork they laid for that was that she went off with Merlyn. We were all speculating as to how that would change her, and while she can fight now, she doesn't seem to have changed all that much apart from being willing to lie to her brother a bit. The only way I could buy Thea killing Sara would be if Sara had gotten herself into some shady shit/was getting ready to do something terrible. And I really hope they don't assassinate her character like that.

[Orion]

But if they do the canary cry for her why would they need Oliver? The Arrow could sit at home and munch on potato chips with his feet up while they send Laurel to scream at all the villains. That's one of the biggest problems imo with having any meta human on Arrow. Oliver becomes an outdated model of a superhero. He can't compete. Why would I want to watch Arrow fight and get injured when Laurel could handle things in 5 seconds.

 

I'm trying not to comment on the BC arc because a. I won't be there for it and b. I have not a thing good to say but what does it say about that character that they STILL can't find a way to work her into the story in a believable way to the point they have to send the titled character away just to giver her an arc.  Even Barry Allen's origin story could be told along with Oliver's. Only Laurel has this problem. 

[LadyChaos]

hello all................

So my prediction is that OQ will go to the LoA to face off w/ RAG b/c he believes Thea killed Sara.....

 

the twist will be that we the audience will learn that it is someone else in the last 5 minutes or so...

[calliope1975]

If Nyssa comes on a regular, I can see her as Black Canary. And then I'd rather have HER head up a spin off with the Huntress and they find their own Oracle.

 

I would readily accept Nyssa taking up the Black Canary mantle before the alternative. 

 

I'm not too surprised that MG is backtracking on the no metahumans. I figured the EPs would change their mind if they got to play with their favorites. 

[writersblock51]

But if they do the canary cry for her why would they need Oliver? The Arrow could sit at home and munch on potato chips with his feet up while they send Laurel to scream at all the villains. That's one of the biggest problems imo with having any meta human on Arrow. Oliver becomes an outdated model of a superhero. He can't compete. Why would I want to watch Arrow fight and get injured when Laurel could handle things in 5 seconds.

 

 

This is the big problem with having meta-human on the show. It makes Oliver irrelevant.  Completely.

 

I get why the EPs want to play with all the shiny new toys and gadgets but this is NOT THAT SHOW. 

 

OR... like they did with Sara's Canary Cry, tweak the comic book meta to fit in the real world/only human Arrow-verse.

[statsgirl]

But if they do the canary cry for her why would they need Oliver? The Arrow could sit at home and munch on potato chips with his feet up while they send Laurel to scream at all the villains. 

Well, Stephen Amell did say that at the end of the season, there would be so many superheros on Arrow that Oliver could take it easy... .

 

So my prediction is that OQ will go to the LoA to face off w/ RAG b/c he believes Thea killed Sara.....

the twist will be that we the audience will learn that it is someone else in the last 5 minutes or so...

 

And then as they're trying to tell him, Oliver goes missing.  Cue the angst.

Edited November 24, 2014 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

And then as they're trying to tell him, Oliver goes missing.  Cue the angst.

 

That is so terrible. And so probable, haha.

[BkWurm1]

Going back to the DNA evidence for Sara's killer.  In real life telling gender might be the simplest test but when it came to Roy being a suspect, the results came back inconclusive so it doesn't seem to be an impossible TV stretch to find out there is a mix up between Thea and ZombieTommy. 

[blixie]

 

to be an impossible TV stretch to find out there is a mix up between Thea and ZombieTommy.

Especially since they share Merlyn DNA, heh. I really don't think it's going to be Tommy, no matter how much I wish and hope it will be. Boo.

[Chaser]

How did they pull DNA evidence from the arrow? Did the killer not use gloves? Did they sweat all over the arrow? Did they cut themselves on the arrow before firing it? Was this explained and I just fell asleep during it?

[apinknightmare]

How did they pull DNA evidence from the arrow? Did the killer not use gloves? Did they sweat all over the arrow? Did they cut themselves on the arrow before firing it? Was this explained and I just fell asleep during it?

 

Maybe there's hair or skin cells or something in the fletching?

[writersblock51]

if the killer didn't wear gloves, there would be fingerprints and possibly sweat or something on the arrows used.

[Chaser]

I feel like the killer must be really stupid to leave DNA on an arrow they are using to kill the Black Canary. 

[statsgirl]

It seems that everyone is using gloves with fingers .... except Laurel's new costume.

[apinknightmare]

I feel like the killer must be really stupid to leave DNA on an arrow they are using to kill the Black Canary. 

 

Well, it's not like they would've done it on purpose (as long as it isn't planted DNA). Could be that the killer reached back for the arrow and the end rubbed against their exposed wrist, or an arm hair got left behind somewhere. Doesn't seem like it would be fingerprints, since Team Arrow could've easily checked for those, and wouldn't need Caitlin's help to figure out who they belong to.

[Chaser]

That solves it: The killer is Laurel. She has the ridiculously ineffective gloves to prove it. She has super secret parkour moves that got her down to the alley to see her handy work hit the ground. 

 

ETA: I just feel like DNA is the go-to evidence for TV and I would have liked who ever killed Sara to be smart enough to be properly dressed and skilled. 

Edited November 24, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[apinknightmare]

That solves it: The killer is Laurel. She has the ridiculously ineffective gloves to prove it. She has super secret parkour moves that got her down to the alley to see her handy work hit the ground. 

 

ETA: I just feel like DNA is the go-to evidence for TV and I would have liked who ever killed Sara to be smart enough to be properly dressed and skilled. 

 

Aren't a ton of cold cases solved through DNA though? I don't just think it's a TV thing. The fact that a person leaves DNA behind doesn't make them unskilled, IMO. Leaving fingerprints on it would be an idiot move, but DNA could be anything. A flake of skin, a hair - unnoticeable stuff you wouldn't realize you were leaving behind. And it's not like this person could've double-checked the arrows after they killed her - Sara fell off the roof right after she was shot, and then Laurel dragged her bloody corpse through the streets of Starling City.

[writersblock51]

and this show is not good about getting forensic details right.

 

Add that to the list of other short comings: addiction, financial and legal stories

 

I would hope that the show would pay VERY close and intelligent attention to the details surrounding the murder since it's the driving force behind the season so far and in the personal development for Laurel.

[Chaser]

Very true to all the above. Sometimes I watch this show doing my best Minion impression "Wwwwhhaaat??"

[Starfish35]

4chan is also where the Thea spoiler originated earlier this week. In fact it seems like these are mocking the other spoiler, that anonymous source claimed they were a production assistant.

Did anyone ever manage to actually find the Thea 4chan spoiler? Are we sure it actually exists/existed?

Like I said it's just funny, people would rather believe zombies or brainwashing over Thea choosing to kill Sara. To me all three are stupid horrible stories but only one fits the theme of the season and involves a series regular

I'm sorry - I guess I'm completely dense. But I'm still not getting how Thea murdering Sara fits the theme of the season, which as I understand it is "who am I?" How would Thea being Sara's murderer fit into that theme? If I'm remembering correctly, the question for Thea this season was "am I Moira's daughter or am I Malcolm's?" If Thea knowingly murdered Sara, it seems like that question is answered before the season really even begins, because we never saw the journey that would take Thea to the place where she would make the choice to murder a friend in cold blood.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

I would hope that the show would pay VERY close and intelligent attention to the details surrounding the murder since it's the driving force behind the season so far and in the personal development for Laurel.

Ha, ha, ha, ha .... sorry.

 

In real life, DNA and other forensic evidence is not as clear-cut as it is on TV (and the psychobabble on Criminal Minds not as flowing, excuse me, that's a particular aggravation for me).

 

Maybe a hair might be left behind, although it would have to get wrapped up in the feather of the arrow and as far as I can recall, everyone either wears a hood or a wig.  But some skin or saliva -- how would they know it's the killer's?  And how would they be able to do a DNA match?  Oliver's not going to find something and say "here, test it against my DNA" and most people don't have their DNA on file.  Maybe at a stretch Thea does because the Queens were worried about her being kidnapped as a child (do people do that?) but Nyssa's or Sin's won't be.  Most likely if they find anything, it will be Laurel's since she dragged Sara to the Arrow cave.

[DrSpaceman10]

Did anyone ever manage to actually find the Thea 4chan spoiler?

I looked for it on 4chan and I didn't find it but I did find the "spoiler" about Nyssa killing Sara. I think I remember someone else on here saying that they also looked for the Thea spoiler on 4chan and couldn't find it.

[Kordi]

Yeah, I can't see him offering himself up for anyone but her. I also can't help but think that even if Thea is revealed to be the killer that it's still ultimately a red herring to kick off dramatic events and the REAL killer will surface later in some kind of 'gotcha' moment.

 

But for that to happen Thea would have to steadfastly deny it and have someone (Oliver) believe her, I can't think of any reason why she'd admit to doing it if she didn't actually do it/remember doing it, unless the brainwashing thing comes back into play, which...no.

I am with you on the idea that Thea is yet another red herring that triggers some dramatic development in the midseason finale. I imagine the plot to take the following direction: The League (especially Nyssa) somehow comes to believe that it was Thea who killed Sara and demands handing her over. However, Oliver does not share this suspicion. Instead, he believes his sister who steadfastly denies being the murderer. But since Oliver can't prove that Thea is innocent and doesn't know who the real killer is, he offers himself to Ra's as substitute for his sister in order to protect her. Thus, Oliver goes to the League without knowing who really killed Sarah. (Wasn't there a spoiler saying that Oliver finds out in 3x12 or 3x13 - after the midseason finale - about the murderer's true identity?) Finally, at the very end of 3x09, the REAL killer is revealed, but only to the TV audience.

My guess is that it will be Amanda Waller (which would tie in what happened in Hongkong with what is going on in Starling City). I don't think she herself carried out the murder, but she was the one who gave the final order to kill Sara. Maybe she wants to take action against the League, but for some reason can't do it herself. Instead, she wants to trap Oliver into doing it. So she uses the following strategy:

She has SARA killed, because she is the connecting link between Oliver and the League. She was Oliver's girlfriend as well as Nyssa's (and a League member). Therefore, both sides would want to find out who is the murderer in order to take revenge on the killer/ bring the killer to justice.

Now, in order to provoke a conflict between Oliver and the League, Waller wants (i) the League (Nyssa) to think that somebody Oliver cares about committed the crime, and she also wants (ii) Oliver to think that League is responsible for Sara's death. Therefore, Waller has Sara killed with a BLACK ARROW that has THEA's DNA planted on it. The black arow will lead Oliver to think the League did it (because it's the type of arrow they would use), while the DNA will lead the League (Nyssa) to think that Thea did it. So both sides will inevitably fight against each other.(And this is what we see in 3x09.)

And who carried out the murder on Waller's order? Could it be Tatsu/ Katana who actually killed Sara? If Hongkong!Oliver somehow was involved in the death of a person Katana loved (child? husband?), she would have a personal motive apart from Waller's order, namely, revenge on Oliver. I know, Katana's weapon of choice is the sword, but maybe she used arrows to throw suspicion on Ra's and the League, as I said above. Her intention would be then to (i) rob Oliver of one of his (girl)friends and to (ii) provoke a battle between Oliver and the League, a battle in which Oliver might very well get harmed or even killed.

But Sara apparently knew her killer (and vice versa)? I see two possibilities here: (i) There will be a reveal that Sara and Tatsu knew each other after all. According to the "Arrow 2.5" comics Sara had contact with the Suicide Squad, so within that context there might have been some earlier encounter between the two women. (ii) Has anybody yet considered the possibility that the murderer was in a disguise? Maybe Sara wrongly considered the person on the roof to be Nyssa or some other League member, and therefore she didn't react with surprise.

ETA: It just ocurred to me that the person who carried out the murder could also be Maseo Yamashiro, Tatsu's husband. (i) We know he is an expert marksman: Maseo was shown to be highly skilled with firearms, being able to shoot a cell phone out of Oliver's hand. And, to borrow (and adapt) a quote from Oliver's lines in 3x03: "[Maseo] never said [he] didn't know how to use [a bow and arrows]". If he is skilled with guns, why shouldn't he also be skilled with a bow? (ii) It was said in some spoilers that we are going to see Maseo in present time Starling City. (Unfortunately, I don't remember the exact source.)

If Maseo really is the killer, then, I guess, we will see in the Hongkong flashbacks how Oliver kills/ is somehow responsibe for the death of Maseo's and Tatsu's son Akio. (It can't be Tatsu who is killed in Hongkong, since we know she will become Katana.) I imagine the show would do this for two reasons: On the one hand, this would be a very dramatic way of showing how Oliver "loses his humanity". (After all, it's about the death of a CHILD [uggh]!!!) On the other hand, it would provide Maseo with a strong personal motive for seeking revenge on Oliver.

Do these ramblings make sense somehow?

Edited November 24, 2014 by Kordi

[Starfish35]

It does seem like somehow eventually they need to tie Oliver's flashbacks to what's going on in current day, and so far as I know that hasn't happened yet. (Of course I've only seen two episodes so far this season, so it's very possible I've missed something.)

The problem with Sara's murderer being tied to either Malcolm or the LoA (for me) has always been, well, one, that it's way too obvious, but two, that it means that the whole Hong Kong storyline is pretty much pointless if it has nothing to do with the current storyline. I will bet they do something to tie them together by the end of 309, just like present day Slade was revealed at the end of 209. I don't know as I'm ready to go so far as to say Katana might be the murderer. But I think this will prove to be connected to Oliver's time in Hong Kong somehow.

Is that making Sara's death all about Oliver again, instead of her? Yeah. Not saying I like that, but that's kind of what I expect.

[Kordi]

I just want to add two considerations that made me think that Waller is the person who is ultimately responsible for Sara's murder: (i) ARGUS and Waller were a topic of 3x03 "Corto Maltese", and I do think that mentioning them is foreshadowing what is going to come up in the back half of season 3. Especially what Mark Shaw said caught my attention: "You don't know the things Waller's made me do." This indicates IMO that Waller might be even worse than we initially thought. (ii) In his recent interview with Wall Street Journal SA was asked: "Are we going to get to see you fight R’as al Ghul?" And his answer was: "One would hope. I normally fight the big bad of the year. If it turns out he is the big bad, but I don’t think that has been printed, that R’as al Ghul is the big bad this year. I don’t remember anyone announcing that..." (see http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2014/10/30/stephen-amell-arrow-interview/). It seems clear to me that he hinted at the fact the THE BIG bad might very well be somebody else, and given that it is not Malcolm (again) - who is, as SA affirmed on some other occasion (during the Arrow After Show?), NOT bad (anymore) - who could it be if not Waller? And if she really is THE BIG bad of season 3, then I can't imagine her not being involved in/ responsible for Sara's death.

WRT the concern that "Sara's death is all about Oliver": I would say, yes, it is. But this is so in virtue of the fact that THE WHOLE SHOW is about Oliver. Thus, everything that happens is significant insofar as it is related to HIM. And this includes all the deaths: Tommy's, Shado's, Moira's, all these deaths are "about Oliver".

Edited November 24, 2014 by Kordi

[tv echo]

Summarizing some of the theories suggested above...  The DNA on the arrow turns out to be Thea's, so Oliver gives himself up to Ra's in her place.  (This would be IC - last season, he wanted to give himself up to Slade in order to save the city, so deja vu.)  Once he's with the LOA, however, he finds out that the real killer is either Nyssa or an ARGUS agent.  He's then no longer willing to sacrifice himself and wants to return home. 

 

-- If the killer is a brainwashed Nyssa, Oliver challenges her to combat to the death per LOA code and wins (likely Nyssa lets him win) but he lets Nyssa live.  Nyssa disavows her father and returns to Starling City with Oliver.  Nyssa flashback provides clarification on relationship between Nyssa and Ra's, and why Ra's would let them go.  Nyssa becomes the new Black Canary (like writersblock51 suggested) when Laurel gives it up (this still seems unlikely to me).

 

-- If the killer is an ARGUS agent, Oliver and Nyssa return to Starling City together (with Ra's approval) and devise a plan to go after Waller.  Hong Kong flashbacks provide clarification as to Waller's motive (as Kordi suggested).  The showdown is between Waller & corrupted ARGUS agents and Oliver's team with LOA assist.  Waller is defeated and Lyla takes over as head of a new and cleaned-out ARGUS (yes, shades of SHIELD-HYDRA).

 

Either theory would get around the problem of how Oliver can possibly defeat Ra's.

 

About the "Canaries" episode, I think we'll see a frustrated Laurel who's been not doing that well out in the field.  Then we'll see flashbacks of a frustrated Sara when she first struggled to learn fighting with Nyssa.  Ultimately, we'll see both triumphing in some way in present day and flashback scenes, perhaps with Nyssa giving approval to both sisters.  I'm going with this parallel story theory instead of the Ghost Sara appearing to Laurel theory that I liked before.

Edited November 24, 2014 by tv echo

[writersblock51]

About the "Canaries" episode, I think we'll see a frustrated Laurel who's been not doing that well out in the field.  Then we'll see flashbacks of a frustrated Sara when she first struggled to learn fighting with Nyssa.  Ultimately, we'll see both triumphing in some way in present day and flashback scenes, perhaps with Nyssa giving approval to both sisters.  I'm going with this parallel story theory instead of the Ghost Sara appearing to Laurel theory that I liked before.

 

That would make sense - parallel stories taking place - except that one of the EPs said that Sara would be on the screen but not in a flashback. Something about her appearance being in an unexpected way.

 

That doesn't leave many options, and "unexpected' is another over-used description used by showrunners:

 

1) Video!Sara - she did a video before she died, "If you're watching this, it means I'm dead but I want you to carry on - I believe in you!" type of stuff that somehow Laurel gets a hold of.  Maybe this is where Sin is involved?  She has the video on a flash drive but was told to only give it to Laurel under certain circumstances, so she's never seen it (or she has, it doesn't really matter)

 

2) Ghost!Sara

 

3) Hallucination!Sara (Laurel has a concussion?)

 

I suppose there are others but, frankly, I don't think the writers and EPs are as creative as they think they are.  Any of those are actually expected.

 

I'm going with Video!Sara

 

Interesting about the theories about how the Hong Kong stuff connects to the current stories.  I think it has to because otherwise, what's the point. In terms of Oliver's personal growth, I don't think he's changed at all since he arrived in Hong Kong whereas his 2 years on the island saw marked changes in his personality and survival skill set as the episodes progressed.  We haven't seen anything like that from his time in Hong King so far.

 

Except for learning to do laundry.  And I truly hope that's just a small joke AND not going to be played off as something bigger.

 

Could Waller be the Big Bad? Absolutely. 

 

I think the plot to get to that would be almost as ridiculous as the previous plan she had to try to kill China White on the plane. so sure. Waller could be the killer.  And we'll find out how Waller knew Sara.  Waller is portrayed as tall on the show but that could be because of the heels she always wears.  The original comic Waller is short so that could fit the forensics that we know about.  But, alas, the Wall is NOT on this show in any aspect. 

 

I don't think Waller pulled the string, though. She doesn't do her own dirty work.  So that leaves who would do her bidding that would be someone Sara recognizes and who has the skills to do the job.

 

One other point about how Sara was killed - just for fun, I used a compound bow recently. I haven't done archery in over 20 years (gym class!). If I had to hit a target 10 feet away, yeah, I could have done it. I wouldn't have been able to nock 2 more arrows so quickly and my shoulder and arm would have hurt like hell.  My point is this: the use of 3 arrows, shot at close range, does not necessary mean that a highly skilled archer was the actual killer.

Edited November 24, 2014 by writersblock51

[BkWurm1]

During the interviews at the live premiere of The Flash and Arrow crossover event they mentioned that Star Labs is going to be contributing some important gadgets that the other team would use. If Laurel doesn't already have Sara's sonic device, I bet they get a new and improved version from Star Labs.

Edited November 24, 2014 by BkWurm1

[writersblock51]

I agree - a new & improved canary cry gadget is more likely than giving Laurel a meta-human power.

[catrox14]

To the point about SA saying malcolm isn't bad. Not trying to nitpick but he actually said malcolm isn't evil which is different than him not being bad.

[Password]

Whenever I see the Spoilers Only thread has a new post my stomach drops. When did I start dreading what happens on this show? And yet I can't help but look.

Wait Malcolm isn't evil? Really.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Limbo

[Kordi]

To the point about SA saying malcolm isn't bad. Not trying to nitpick but he actually said malcolm isn't evil which is different than him not being bad.

Thank you for the clarification (BTW I'm not a native speaker so I didn't get the difference in meaning right away.) However, the point I made still sticks: If Malcolm isn't EVIL anymore, then it is very unlikely that he is THE BIG BAD of season 3, right?

[catrox14]

I don't think it means he's not the Big Bad just because he's not evil. He wasn't evil in s1. He's delusional. He thought his plan was perfectly reasonable so that he could avenge his wife's murder. Slade was the Big Bad last year but he was not evil. He was delusional from the Mirakuru.

[Starfish35]

Could Waller be the Big Bad? Absolutely.

I think the plot to get to that would be almost as ridiculous as the previous plan she had to try to kill China White on the plane. so sure. Waller could be the killer. And we'll find out how Waller knew Sara. Waller is portrayed as tall on the show but that could be because of the heels she always wears. The original comic Waller is short so that could fit the forensics that we know about. But, alas, the Wall is NOT on this show in any aspect.

I don't think Waller pulled the string, though. She doesn't do her own dirty work. So that leaves who would do her bidding that would be someone Sara recognizes and who has the skills to do the job.

Didn't SA say something when he was on the Arrow Aftershow about this season's plot being the most "convoluted" one they'd ever done? Waller seems to be the Queen of Convoluted Plots. But I agree that she wouldn't have been the one to kill Sara herself. She would have had someone else do it.

During the interviews at the live premiere of The Flash and Arrow crossover event they mentioned that Star Labs is going to be contributing some important gadgets that the other team would use. If Laurel doesn't already have Sara's sonic device, I bet they get a new and improved version from Star Labs.

That's an excellent point, and seems far more likely than Laurel actually becoming a meta-human. Laurel getting the real Canary Cry on this show has always seemed to me to be about as likely as her ending up wearing real fishnets. :/ Not to say they won't go there if they're determined to make her the "real" Black Canary, but....I just can't see how they would make that work on this show. Using gadgets to fight rather than her fists would also fit her having to "find another way."

Edited November 24, 2014 by Starfish35

[Password]

Using gadgets to fight rather than her fists would also fit her having to "find another way."

Good point. But we have Mr Palmer for the gadgetry hero this season. Unless you mean just the canary cry, then sure. Although using gadgets is a different way.

[tv echo]

I forgot to post earlier that I didn't think the mirakuru really detracted that much from the realism of the show because it was arguably based on science.  Mirakuru is a man-made serum that "causes enhanced physical strength, speed, endurance, durability, agility, stamina, reflexes, and an accelerated healing factor once injected, however its use is dangerous, as the serum can easily prove fatal if not correctly administered" (source).

 

IRL we already have anabolic steroids that enhance physical performance, increase muscle mass and strength, but also have adverse side effects like aggression, anger, and health problems (why it is illegal for professional athletes to take them).  We also have a variety of healing agents.  It's not beyond the realm of possibility that a scientist or team of scientists could've come up with a combination drug that would do what mirakuru did (after illegally experimenting on humans), taken to a dangerous extreme, plus having the really bad side effects.

Edited November 24, 2014 by tv echo

[Kordi]

I don't think it means he's not the Big Bad just because he's not evil. He wasn't evil in s1. He's delusional. He thought his plan was perfectly reasonable so that he could avenge his wife's murder. Slade was the Big Bad last year but he was not evil. He was delusional from the Mirakuru.

Hmmm, now we are getting into deep ethical waters that can become pretty muddy... If you want to argue that neither Malcolm nor Slade were evil, because they genuinely believed that it was somehow "good"/"justified"/ "reasonable" what they did, then I strongly disagree with you, because in that case, so it seems to me, there hardly are (or even could be) any evil people.

If a person (who does something bad) isn't evil, because she really believes that what she does is something "good"/ "justified"/ "reasonable", then even somebody like Adolf Hitler would count as only "delusional" and not "evil". (There are very good reasons to believe that he was really convinced of his own ideology. Therefore, he genuinely believed that he was doing "the best" for his people, and [ii] that doing "the best" for his people was his supreme duty as leader of the Third Reich.) And such a result seems completely absurd to me. Hitler clearly was an evil person.

To put it in a different manner: If a person does something consciously and deliberately (such that she can be held responsible for her action), then it will always be the case that she does it, because she thinks that this action, all things considered, is "something good". As they said in medieval philosophy: human beings always act "sub ratione boni", i.e. they do something precisely because they believe it to be "good" somehow. And of cause, this also applies to Malcolm and Slade.

Now, IMO "evil" is a person who consciously and deliberately does something, although she could and should know that her action can't be morally justified.

Maybe you can argue that Slade in season 2 wasn't evil, because he was under the influence of a drug (Mirakuru) that was so powerful that he couldn't act deliberately anymore at all and therefore was in no way responsible for his actions AND/ OR [ii] the drug didn't deprive him of his free will, but made him at least absolutely incapable of any moral reasoning.

Be this as it may. But I wouldn't let Malcolm of season 1 get away with such a kind of argument. No matter how much he grieved over his dead wife, he could and should have known that the mere fact that his wife got killed in the Glades doesn't justify his killing of more than five hundred people who had nothing to do with his wife's death apart from the fact that they happened to live in the same neighborhood. Therefore, I stick to my guns: IMHO Malcolm of season 1 is evil.

Wow, that was a wild digression into ethics. SORRY GUYS! Let's get out of the muddy waters!

On a different note: Even if we can't agree on the question whether Malcolm was/ continues to be evil or not, we can agree that it is unlikely that he is going to be the big bad of season 3 (given the fact that he already was the big bad of season 1 and it's unlikely that the show is simply going to reuse him as the big bad in season 3), can't we?

Edited November 24, 2014 by Kordi

[catrox14]

Okay are are my crack theories beyond Laurel.

1)Oliver is the killer. It's a debt owed to waller because she kidnapped his child in Hong Kong. She will exchange his child for Sara. Why Oliver doesn't tell John or Felicity might be because of shame that he has known about the child but didn't take action. See also Oliver doesn't always make sense.

2) Ras AL Ghul is trying to setup Malcolm/Thea to get to Malcolm, get rid of Sara and ruin Oliver's life so he uses Oliver's baby mama to setup Thea.

Spawn of Oliver is kidnapped by LoA. baby mama is told by LoA that she will become an assassin and kill Sara or her child is dead.

Sara knows Baby Mama from being in training with her. She somehow learns that Baby Mama had a kid from Oliver so she goes back to SC to tell Oliver what she knows.

Baby mama follows her to SC. That would explain; why Sara recognized her killer and was unafraid if puzzled, the KOUS aspect and the Black arrows. If Thea is set up by Ras AL Ghul then Oliver and Malcolm would team up against Ras.

Oliver goes over the cliff in battle and Malcolm works to find Oliver and save Thea.

As to the ethics here, I never said nor implied Malcolm is off the hook because he's crazy. He murdered 500 people.He deserves to be locked up forever in the ARGUS prison or killed.

As to Malcolm not being the Big Bad again, no reason they can't because he has long been the Green Arrow's main nemesis.

Edited November 24, 2014 by catrox14

[ban1o]

The surprise we’ve been teased in The Flash, the one about Oliver, was totally eclipsed by two other surprises. One in The Flash and one in Arrow.

 

This was in the review of the crossover episode that tv echo posted in the Spoilers thread. Apparently the secret that they've been hyping so much is totally eclipsed by other surprises in the episode lmao. It's probably the kid thing they've been hyping. Nobody really cares about Oliver's kid lol. 

 

but  I do wonder what the other 2 surprises are (especially the Arrow one) 

Edited November 24, 2014 by ban1o

[Kordi]

As to the ethics here, I never said nor implied Malcolm is off the hook because he's crazy. He murdered 500 people.He deserves to be locked up forever in the ARGUS prison or killed.

O.K. two last remarks ('cause I can't help myself):

You say, Malcolm is delusional (not evil), but still deserves to be punished (either by being imprisoned or even by being killed). That seems odd to me. IMO somebody who is delusional does not deserve to be punished, she deserves to get psychological treatment or some kind of therapy (maybe locked away in a mental institution so that she can't do any harm to herself or others). If Malcolm really DESERVES PUNISHMENT, then he is not simply "delusional" or "crazy".

Now, one might argue in favor of your opinion in the following way: Suppose there arises a situation where Malcolm (who is crazy or delusional, but not evil) becomes (again) a real danger for Starling City, and the only way to stop him is to put him into an ARGUS prison or even kill him. In such a situation, wouldn't it be right (given certain other circumstances - fill in the blanks yourself) to imprison or kill Malcolm? - My answer would be: Sure! But it doesn't follow that this would be a situation were a (merely) delusional person deserves to be punished. This would rather be a situation were innocent people (the inhabitants of Starling City) deserve to be protected, even if that means that one has to imprison or kill the aggressor.

[ii] You yourself say that Malcolm "murdered" (not just "killed") people. I wonder how somebody can truly be a murderer without being evil...

In conclusion, if Malcolm really deserves punishment because he murdered people, then I take it that he not simply delusional. It seems to be more plausible to assume that he is evil.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Kordi

[catrox14]

Okay. Words seem to being heard and sort of are being put into my mouth that I am not saying, nor implying. I am giving reasons for how I am interpreting Amell's comments that Malcolm, a fictional character in a comic book show is in Amell's opinion, not evil.

Malcolm is dangerously delusional. He is a threat to others.

Should Malcolm be free to roam the streets of Starling City? Clearly not because he has been proven to be a dangerous criminal who has already murdered 500 people. His delusional thinking lead him to criminal acts and murder. They could put him on trial for murder but everyone thinks he's dead. Maybe he would be found not guilty by reason of insanity but I doubt it. But that doesn't meant he's still not batcrap crazy.

To me the term evil implies a supernatural/mystical element to Malcolms behavior that doesn't seem to fit within the parameters of this universe in Arrow.

Edited November 24, 2014 by catrox14

[Kordi]

Well, @catrox14, I certainly didn't want to put something into your mouth that you've not said. I simply tried to understand your way of thinking. I still don't get it entirely, frankly speaking, but at least I see that we use "delusional" and "evil" in very different ways. For me, "being delusional" implies something like "suffering from a mental disorder" and this IMO is very closely connected to "being insane". And as to the meaning of "evil": I am aware of the fact that it can be used in some supernatural context (like, for example, when somebody uses "the evil one" as a synonym for the devil). But when I say that IMO Malcolm is "evil" I do not mean this to imply him having some supernatural quality. I want to say that - as I see it - Malcolm doesn't only do "bad things", he is a deeply "immoral" or "wicked" person.

 

Now, I don't want to deny that in a certain sense there is something "delusional" or "crazy" or "mad" about Malcolm. Nobody who takes a look at his "undertaking" can deny this. However, I would insist that him being delusional isn't such that it excludes him being evil (immoral and wicked) at the same time. Therefore, I don't accept the statement "Malcom is delusional" as an eplanation or justification for the statement: "Malcolm is not evil".

So, how do I interpret SA's comment about Malcolm not being evil? Well, given that he was not talking to students of ethics in a philosophy class, I suppose that he was speaking loosely. I would interpret it along the following lines: "There is more to Malcolm than his past as an evil (wicked/ immoral) person". I take it that SA wants to assure us that we will see other aspects of Malcolm's personality. We will see that he isn't ONLY evil. (Maybe SA is thinking of his love/ care for Thea and - possibly - also for Oliver?)

One last general comment: My professor of philosophical anthropology back in college defended the idea that no human being - no matter how evil (immoral/ wicked) she is - is all and only evil. In his arguments he used the following analogy that I believe to be a good illustration: Think of a rotten apple. For something to be a rotten apple it has to be - at least in some respect - like a true apple should be (for example, insofar as it maintains at least a round shape). If it were all and only rotten, it wouldn't be an apple anymore, but only mush or sludge. In the same way an evil human person - so my professor argued - isn't all and only evil, but is - at least in some respects - like a true human being should be. In other words, although she is evil, she is still preserving certain aspects a human being should have.

"Malcolm isn't all and only evil. There is a different side to his character. There is something we can relate to. Something we even might be able to appreciate. [My added speculation: And we will see this aspect of his character in his interaction with Thea and maybe with Oliver.]" I guess this is what SA meant. At least this is how I understand him. It remains to be seen whether SA (as well as my interpretation) is right.

[Starfish35]

There is actually a character thread for Malcolm - maybe this discussion should go there? Not trying to shut people down - just seems like we're getting a little derailed from spoiler discussion.

Http://forums.previously.tv/topic/13205-malcolm-merlyn-the-dark-archer-whos-your-daddy/

[catrox14]

At this point the discussion has veered more into malcolm which we can continue in the malcolm thread if you like.

My point was that whether malcolm was evil or not should not necessarily preclude him from being the Big Bad of the season.

[Kordi]

My point was that whether malcolm was evil or not should not necessarily preclude him from being the Big Bad of the season.

O.k. I got that point. Let's leave it that way. Sorry for the digression.

[statsgirl]

I'm impressed with all the theories here.   Well done, everyone.

 

Unfortunately I'm so bummed out about all the Laurel from 309 to 313, I just can't get excited about Arrow.  I'm trying to tell myself that I got through the 5 month hiatus in the summer, I can get through 2 months till hopefully Laurel's arc is over.

[NumberCruncher]

Unfortunately I'm so bummed out about all the Laurel from 309 to 313, I just can't get excited about Arrow.  I'm trying to tell myself that I got through the 5 month hiatus in the summer, I can get through 2 months till hopefully Laurel's arc is over.

Can't say I'm excited either, but my lack of enthusiasm is more about lack of Oliver than more Laurel. That all said, they won't make the episodes all about her. There will still be storylines for others and that's where I'm choosing to focus my energy. Unfortunately I get the feeling we'll also see a lot more of Ray's evolution into The Atom which doesn't thrill me either, but I figure if I can make it through these handful of episodes, I can make it through anything.

I was tired of the Sara murder mystery after episode 2. I can't even muster up enough energy to create a theory of my own. I just want the answer soon so we can finally move on.

[slayer2]

That's tumblr. It's full of tween girls who probably do think 50 Shades of Grey is the epitome of romance, and bribing employees with inappropriate gifts is an acceptable way for a man to behave. They'd probably still think that when 50 Shades is telling Felicity, 'no, you do want to sleep with me', as he quietly slips something into her drink.

I guess these writers either think that shit is romantic, or just think that all the fans of the show who value romance over action will think it's romantic. But hey, it's just another thing for them to be completely tone deaf about.

Mileage varies. I wouldn't write off an entire target by saying that they're just stupid tweens who don't know what love is. I'm a grown woman and I don't find Ray creepy and thought the date scene was fine.

All this talk of flashbacks reminds me how sick I am of Ollie's. I could do with more Merlyn flashbacks particularly Thea's time away. Felicity and Sara flashbacks are also welcome.

Edited November 24, 2014 by slayer2

[BumpSetSpike]

 

Mileage varies. I wouldn't write off an entire target by saying that they're just stupid tweens who don't know what love is. I'm a grown woman and I don't find Ray creepy and thought the date scene was fine.

 

Agreed.  I found Ray socially awkward but not at all creepy.