Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Primal Slayer]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Why couldn't Baby Sara grow up to be Green Arrow 2.0 or 3.0? Because comics? Or what?

Comics certainly had nothing to do with it, they just want a boy to be GA. Everyone should know their place. 

[Chasity]

How are they going to explain baby John to the Arrow audience that doesn't watch The Flash?

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, Chasity said:

How are they going to explain baby John to the Arrow audience that doesn't watch The Flash?

Not a damn clue. I guess maybe they could have Felicity confide in someone about Flashpoint? Or they'll just be lazy as hell and just not bother explaining it. 

My shipper mind is now wondering though - where did Oliver and Felicity's first kiss happen? Where did he pre-break up with her? Inquiring minds!

[Primal Slayer]

Havent they basically said in the past that they expect both shows audience to watch both shows?

[ComicFan777]

I think it's possible that there are other flashpoint changes in Arrow because Barry only noticed any flashpoint differences that he could find using Felicity's computer.  They didn't know if flashpoint was only limited to Central City, but when Barry went through Felicity's computer and realized flashpoint also affected Star City - at the very least Diggle's kid is no longer Sara.  Felicity asked him if he noticed anything else has changed visually, and he just said not that he noticed - so it is very possible that there are more to it than just baby Sara that we find later because Barry just didn't notice it at the time.

Edited October 12, 2016 by ComicFan777

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Comics certainly had nothing to do with it, they just want a boy to be GA. Everyone should know their place. 

Okay sorry. I didn't get that was what you meant. I thought you were being serious. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[lemotomato]

22 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Comics certainly had nothing to do with it, they just want a boy to be GA. Everyone should know their place. 

What do you mean by "Everyone should know their place"? 

[Sunshine]

I guess it's really the Arrow EPs that erased baby Sara.  Barry was just the tool.

[apinknightmare]

He's a tool all right. 

This would also change some other stuff too, like John seemed to be at least a few years older than Sara - so...was there still a rift between Oliver and Diggle because he left the kid unattended when he kidnapped Lyla? I guess we're literally to believe that they changed this one thing and everything that happened after was EXACTLY the same? 

Toss this all in the garbage. 

[Thundercatmary]

Another garbage story to add to the pile lol

[dtissagirl]

If all things remain the same except for gender, then boy baby was born the same day adult Sara was murdered, but that has no importance anymore so Dig decided to name his kid after himself self-preservation style?

[Angel12d]

If (when) Felicity gets vilified for carrying the knowledge of baby Sara, I will burn things to the ground. FIGHT ME, FLASH. LET ME AT HIM!

By the look of that picture, John Jr looked older than baby Sara. She's only two, right? 

[calliope1975]

37 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

If all things remain the same except for gender, then boy baby was born the same day adult Sara was murdered, but that has no importance anymore so Dig decided to name his kid after himself self-preservation style?

Much like every plot point, clearly no one thought this through. 

"Hey, we should change Sara to a boy!"

"Why?"

"Cuz. We have to show that Flashpoint affects all the shows."

"It's not going to be addressed on LOT. Or Supergirl."

"Whatever, let's do it." 

"But was the child born on the same day? Are Lyla and Digg's relationship the same?"

"Who cares! It'll go from a girl to a boy. So cool."

Continuity person opens the flask she carries with her every day and takes a long, long drink.

Edited October 12, 2016 by calliope1975

[Sunshine]

In case anyone cares...Barry was in Flashpoint for 3 months.  He visited Felicity the day after he got back which would have been 2 months before 5.01 took place.  I guess Flash has a time jump sometime before the crossover to catch up.

[SleepDeprived]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

He's a tool all right.

Co-sign. Best, most accurate description. I hate it so much that Baby Sara became a casualty of his stupidity.

Me, almost EVERY time I visit the spoiler thread the past couple of months:

Nothing. Nothing I read is making me excited to watch the upcoming episodes. Whatever fleeting happiness I felt when I heard about Lyla being in the supposed Diggle-centric episode or that Felicity might actually be given a POV with the Havenrock fallout, or having Moira around for the 100th episode, or even the idea of seeing Diggle, Oliver, and Felicity deal with Supergirl has been squashed and I just feel let down.

I still have some hope that something will come up that can finally give me something to like about the rest of S5. Just keep WM away from the media, though! Also, @CW and @WB, Chico sucks at her job so bad--please let someone else handle Arrow PR!

[catrox14]

I am really, really upset about Baby Sara. Like really upset. I feel like this tells me that a boy is more valued than a girl in the Flarrowverse. I don't much care for that notion. Man. :(

[Thundercatmary]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I am really, really upset about Baby Sara. Like really upset. I feel like this tells me that a boy is more valued than a girl in the Flarrowverse. I don't much care for that notion. Man. :(

I feel the same, i'm surprised how much it upset me tbh since I knew it was a possibly, I pretty much flounced Arrow this season but yet it still upsets me.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Thundercatmary

[Princess Vanellope]

What is the lesson I should learn from this tale?  Barry is stupid?  Penises are more valuable than vaginas?  I need this clarified, because I am starting to feel like maybe Flashpoint has also affected the writers and the new timeline's writers are a pack of sexist nutjobs.

[Angel12d]

So because of flashpoint and John Jnr, are we now in the timeline from that LoT episode where Oliver loses his arm? Or are we just supposed to forget that? 

[Carrie Ann]

Haha, I think we're *now* in that timeline, BUT that timeline could still be changed by LoT. I think that's the point of that show, kinda, that the future doesn't have to be as bleak as it became, for the whole world. (Maybe? Honestly I haven't watched the last six episodes of S1 and didn't pay full attention ever, so who knows.)

[Chaser]

So....Felicity and Ray and Oliver and Laurel?

You know it's messed up when.

[calliope1975]

Re: the new spoiler pic. I see what you are doing. You are trying to make me watch. I won't be fooled, Show. You have burned me too many times. I am weak, though, so we'll see how it goes. But you are on the list. I'll be watching not watching you. 

[Mellowyellow]

Seriously did they save that pic for last or just a coincidence?

Upon first glance I thought a fan had just photoshopped Felicity in! 

[Belinea]

Well she looks dressed like in 3x07 and SA looks like Oliver'd just walked into a party. He doesn't look bad but this is not fancy attire.  Come to think of it, didn't he wear that in 3x07 as well?

Edited October 12, 2016 by Belinea

[spartan]

10 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I don't think there will ever be another Black Canary on this show. I do think it's possible there will be a puce, chartreuse or aubergine Canary though, provided Laurel LITERALLY didn't want to be the last Canary, and wasn't just telling Oliver to train a bunch of random n00bs. 

there will be a new black canary, it is the quest for oliver for the rest of this season, so I do not know if will be black siren, but by season 6 will there be a new canary, it is the promise that oliver gave laurel

[EmilyBettFan]

You know if people can have predictions and get them right (turning baby Sara into baby John) then you're doing the show completely wrong.

Edited October 12, 2016 by EmilyBettFan

[BkWurm1]

21 hours ago, Cleanqueen said:

Fits the bill for a new black canary, but do we really think they are casting for a new black canary. Also shes 33, I think that might be too old for the role of a new BC.

I saw her on the most recent episode of Lethal Weapon.  She doesn't look 33. 

10 hours ago, Carrie Ann said:

The dress and the hair were very distinctive.  Nice try. 

Edited since maybe it really is a current picture.  I mean, she didn't wear that necklace in season three with that dress and there's been a game of match the grey in SA's scruff with other current shots.

But it's the dress that she only got to borrow, right?  How does she still have it?  Flashpoint? 

Edited again cause while I thought she was wearing a beaded necklace, now I saw the original pic from season three and that necklace really looks similar.  But the scruff??  And she doesn't have the same part in her hair.  I'm so confused. 

14 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

What I find interesting in that photo of Digg and the new son is that he's not a baby. He's a pretty big boy, 5-7? I'm crap at guessing kids' ages. That's more than a gender swap. That means Lyla got pregnant much earlier. Wonder how that affects Digg's storyline. But yeah, I expected it but I'm still pissed they erased a girl from existence. This shows are so damn problematic. #FrakYouBarry

I'm not convinced he's not supposed to be the same age as Sara but either just looks older or was aged up so the child actor could do more on the show. 

13 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

I think it's possible that there are other flashpoint changes in Arrow because Barry only noticed any flashpoint differences that he could find using Felicity's computer.  They didn't know if flashpoint was only limited to Central City, but when Barry went through Felicity's computer and realized flashpoint also affected Star City - at the very least Diggle's kid is no longer Sara.  Felicity asked him if he noticed anything else has changed visually, and he just said not that he noticed - so it is very possible that there are more to it than just baby Sara that we find later because Barry just didn't notice it at the time.

This is the other thing besides baby Sara that makes me mad.  They can literally retcon ANYTHING and blame it on Flashpoint.  Doesn't matter if we saw something different in the past 4 years.  Barry changed the timeline.  Anything that is off can be blamed on that.  And knowing these writers, is there much doubt they will dip into this well? 

Edited October 12, 2016 by BkWurm1

[looptab]

So, in the new timeline was Laura actually this Saint they kept talking about in the premiere?

[apinknightmare]

3 hours ago, spartan said:

there will be a new black canary, it is the quest for oliver for the rest of this season, so I do not know if will be black siren, but by season 6 will there be a new canary, it is the promise that oliver gave laurel

Laurel told Oliver not to let her be the last Canary, not the last Black Canary. Oliver had a statute made for Black Canary, so I don't think there will be another one. I think any new one will have a different color before her name. 

[Morrigan2575]

I think that's a new picture, not from 307 although her outfit is very similar.  Same necklace? Dress is iffy without seeing the waist or neckline.  However her hair looks very different to me.

ETA: Just to clarify, i have no idea if that SA/EBR picture is from last night. I just don't think it's from 307. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Velocity23]

Seems Emily was on set ... I find it hilarious because all the paps kept saying that she wont be filming.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Velocity23

[Morrigan2575]

There you go! So the picture is most likely from 408 filming. 

[dtissagirl]

If Oliver's hallucinating everything, he can hallucinate Felicity in a dress she doesn't own.

OR

If Oliver's trapped in an alt.reality and Felicity has to ~infiltrate an alt.party to get Oliver back from alt.people, maybe she asked alt.Crazy Eyes to help her out and he got her this dress because creeps will do what creeps do.

[arjumand]

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

maybe she asked alt.Crazy Eyes to help her out and he got her this dress because creeps will do what creeps do.

Lol, I like you! I tend to recall that unfortunate Season 3 incident as the Pretty Womaning of Felicity. I hated it so much! I would insert flamesonthesideofmyface.gif here but I haven't figured out how to gif within the new limits. ):

Re. Sara Diggle - tumblr is in mini-meltdown right now. I assume it isn't full meltdown because I'm sure there's Arrow fans who don't watch The Flash; wait until tonight, I guess. One of my favourite points was the common 'black people aren't interchangeable' - it's common because it keeps happening. I haven't decided whether it's a deal-breaker for me and Arrow; also, I keep living in hope that they'll undo it somehow, and there'll be a "Lyla's pregnant!" later this season, and that'll be Sara. Or just Barry unfucks the situation somehow (we don't care how, you asshole! Just do it!)

I haven't watched the Flash episode 'cos I was bored stiff during the premiere, and I don't want to watch this actual bullshit. And now, after this and the tale of Detective TinyHands, I'm not sure I want to watch Arrow, either. I mean, tonight is Newbies, Assemble! right? Hooray.

Edited October 12, 2016 by arjumand

[quarks]

4 hours ago, looptab said:

So, in the new timeline was Laura actually this Saint they kept talking about in the premiere?

She wasn't mentioned on Flash.

[bijoux]

Here's a, likely erroneous, hopeful thought for the day. It has been said that Arrow would be affected by the Flashpoint at the beginning and towards the end of the season. Maybe Sara gets restored by the end of the season somehow.

Also, we've had photos of EBR, KC and CL apparently dressed up at this McMansion set. Yet SA's in casual clothes and so is WH. Maybe all the characters from that world are invited to the party and the Queen siblings crash.

[looptab]

Just now, quarks said:

She wasn't mentioned on Flash.

LOL, I know. I was trying to joke that maybe the reason we got statues and WWLD and stuff in the premiere was because an effect of FP was Laura being that person. :) Someone upthread mentioned that technically Barry and Felicity had their convo before 501.

[SmallScreenDiva]

8 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Seriously did they save that pic for last or just a coincidence?

It's SA's passive-aggressive way of getting back at fans who nag him about a photo with Emily.

8 hours ago, Belinea said:

Well she looks dressed like in 3x07 and SA looks like Oliver'd just walked into a party. He doesn't look bad but this is not fancy attire.  Come to think of it, didn't he wear that in 3x07 as well?

Since we're dealing with alt.realities in 508, I think Oliver goes back to that night where he finds Felicity and Ray kissing. The dress, hair and necklace all together? Not a coincidence. And they do have Brandon around to recreate that moment if needed.

4 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Laurel told Oliver not to let her be the last Canary, not the last Black Canary. Oliver had a statute made for Black Canary, so I don't think there will be another one. I think any new one will have a different color before her name. 

I agree. She specifically said "last Canary." I'm not going to be surprised if that was part of the deal KC made. 

[bijoux]

8 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

It's SA's passive-aggressive way of getting back at fans who nag him about a photo with Emily.

I think SA's more advanced at being passive aggressive than that. If he had been going for that, I think he'd have deliberately posted a million pics with any and all cast and crew except for EBR.

[dtissagirl]

I don't think KC can put a trademarked IP like Black Canary into some sort of exclusivity use like that into her contract?

My cynical thought of the day is -- earlier this year there was talk of Warner Bros recalling any Black Canary merch with KC's name attached to it from comic book stores. So there'll probably be a new Black Canary™ on Arrow if Time Warner says so.

[quarks]

1 minute ago, looptab said:

LOL, I know. I was trying to joke that maybe the reason we got statues and WWLD and stuff in the premiere was because an effect of FP was Laura being that person. :) Someone upthread mentioned that technically Barry and Felicity had their convo before 501.

I don't think they did. That was based on something that Wally said, but it doesn't completely fit the previous episode on Flash. 

I think the timeline was supposed to be:

May 2016 - Barry runs back in time and saves his mother.

October 2016 - Barry runs back in time and lets Reverse Flash kill his mother.

October 2016 - Barry realizes that the timeline still isn't right.

October 2016 - Barry heads over to Star City so that Flash doesn't have to build another set (FREE THE BUDGET, BERLANTI!) and talks to Felicity, who tells him to go fix things over with Team Flash.

(still) October 2016 - Barry decides to change the timeline again, so finally Jay Garrick steps in and pulls him out of running very very fast and explains again just why this is a bad move, Barry.

(still) October 2016 - Barry finally confesses to Team Flash what happens, and tells them that he went back to save his mother right after Zoom killed his father - that is, three months ago. 

Which is to say that from the perspective of Team Flash in October, Barry pulled this stunt in May, but new timeline Barry (the one who had already met Draco Malfoy and kept complaining about hating that guy) hadn't told them about it.

At this point (October 2016), current-Barry-we-follow-on-the-show catches up/merges with new timeline Barry, although he doesn't have any of the memories of new timeline Barry, so he doesn't remember things that have been apparently going on since May (the death of Cisco's brother, which seemed pretty recent) or before (Joe and Iris not speaking, Draco Malfoy showing up).

A scene later, Wally says that Barry has been lying to the group for months. Which is technically true, since current Barry changed the timeline back in May, but new timeline Barry didn't tell Team Flash that this happened, so they didn't find out for months. I honestly couldn't figure out, from the script, if new timeline Barry knew that current-Barry-on-the-show had gone back in time or not, or if Barry's decision to let Reverse-Flash kill his mother had also changed how new timeline Barry reacted to Zoom killing his father - did new timeline Barry also go back? 

But I think THIS Barry - that is, the current Barry that the camera was following, who apparently can still remember pre-Flashpoint and Flashpoint things - was seen reacting to stuff in October. I don't think he went back to May 2016, because if he did, then Wally couldn't have said that Barry was lying to them for months. And I also don't think that Barry spoke to Felicity in May 2016, and then had the conversation with Team Flash in October 2016, since the episode seemed to be covering just a couple of days.

I realize that this timeline probably creates more questions than it answers, but I think that we were supposed to conclude that Barry and Felicity's conversation happened during Arrow 501 or between Arrow 501 and 502 - that is, in October 2016, so we will now see how Felicity reacts to knowing that Diggle's kid changed genders in Arrow 502, unless the Arrow writers understandably are all like, yeah, we don't want to deal with this stuff.

4 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I don't think KC can put a trademarked IP like Black Canary into some sort of exclusivity use like that into her contract?

 

No, she cannot.  

[bijoux]

I got completely lost in @quarks explanation. Damn Flashpoint.

[looptab]

4 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I got completely lost in @quarks explanation. Damn Flashpoint.

Lol me too. 

But I think Barry came back to May, rather than October? At the end of the previous episode, he went back to the porch of the West house, and Joe and Wally were still there, like they were in the S2 finale. Or not? 

I hate time travel. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by looptab

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think we are going to see another BC on Arrow..I wonder though if given the bad results it wouldn't be better to have her on another show, Legends for example. Anyway I also think they could make her Oliver's LI because if they made him sleep with two sisters I don't think there's a limit, LOL.

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

I don't think they did. That was based on something that Wally said, but it doesn't completely fit the previous episode on Flash. 

I think the timeline was supposed to be:

My interpretation, which is probably wrong was that Barry ran back to save his mom in May. After saving his mom, he raced to the future but overshot May 2016. This is the point where he locked Reverse Flash up, and then started living his life in the new timeline.

Barry then spent 3 months living with his parents, stalking Iris, going to work and not giving a shit about Joe, Cisco or Caitlin. Timeline goes wonky, he starts to forget pre-Flashpoint stuff so Barry decides he has to go back in time and allow RF to kill his mom.

They once again go back to kill mom. At that point RF is in charge because Barry was weak. RF brings Barry back to the exact time he left (a couple of minutes later) in May at the end of 301

This is where shit gets really wonky because they're trying to tie it all together. I think Barry ran to Felicity in October after realizing just how bad he screwed up. The use of the flashbacks in the narrative makes it seem like everything happens at the same time but, I think it's supposed to be later.

The other alternative is that when the episode starts and we see Barry running and get the monologue he's actually running forward in time and that's the time jump from May 301 to October 302

Or final and most likely, these guys are shit when it comes to math, continuity and time travel logic. Which is ironic since 2 of 4 shows heavily use time travel as plot points

Edited October 12, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[JenMD]

12 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Havent they basically said in the past that they expect both shows audience to watch both shows?

No, they've at least given lip service in various interviews here and there to understanding that not all viewers watch all shows.  I don't think they really care about it that much, though, to be honest.  They love to be able to crow about all the crossover action they can get.

10 minutes ago, looptab said:

I hate time travel. 

I hate that time travel on a show I don't watch affects the show I do watch.  These showrunners are all hacks.

I am curious to see how/if they introduce the switch.  I purposefully haven't told my sister about them deleting Sara (sniff) from existence to see her unspoiled reaction. 

[dtissagirl]

I *love* time travel, but I need writers who understand that this kind fake science must have built-in rules THEY MUST FOLLOW, and these guys aren't it. They pick and choose rules to fit plot, because they only know how to write plot-driven shit. I feel like trapping them in a room watching Farscape's Unrealized Reality on loop until they GET IT.

[SmallScreenDiva]

46 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I don't think KC can put a trademarked IP like Black Canary into some sort of exclusivity use like that into her contract?

*smacks forehead* Totally forgot about trademark issues. 

I just really, really don't want another BC on the show. Stop it, TW!

[bijoux]

7 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I need writers who understand that this kind fake science must have built-in rules THEY MUST FOLLOW

This and

27 minutes ago, JenMD said:

I hate that time travel on a show I don't watch affects the show I do watch. 

this are my main issues.

[Cleanqueen]

I do think Stephen genuinely posted that pic and I do think he was going to post a pic of him and Emily at the end. He knew it would be the best one and he saved the best for last.