Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Belinea]

It still is weird to me that they (apart from one interview, as far as I can remember) never talked about Felicity's relationship status. They talked about their partnership etc but never about Felicity trying to move on and so on and so forth. 

What would bother me extremely if they had just erased their time together only to get back to the status quo after the crossover. So, they take it away and then they go back to a place that they were in before. Not having done anything other than kill time. 

If they are trying to change the timeline ultimately then all shows are basically useless in the first half until the crossover and afterwards their own storylines start again.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Belinea

[dtissagirl]

I think my new low bar for the Arrow side of this mess is I want to NOT be asking continuity questions that might arise from the changes. I don't wanna watch Arrow going "but did Barry even go to SC in S2?" That's the opposite of entertaining, thinking about Barry's timeline during Arrow.

[Guest]

Arrow's 100th episode will be more about Supergirl than Arrow. I am shocked by this development. Truly shocked! 

[Chaser]

It's so timey-whimey.

I was thinking, okay Barry is still a CSI so he still meet OTA, had a brief flirt with Felicity, saved Oliver's life. But then I was thinking that Barry snuck away to SC because of his mother's murder. So without that motivation, why would he go to SC? That just throws everything off.

And what happened with Diggle, that Flashpoint would affect his personal life. Was King Shark that important???

[bijoux]

For what little it's worth MG is refuting this on Twitter. The part about it not being Arrow focused, that is.

[tarotx]

The more I watch the Arrow trailer, I think it is Barry's voice at the end. Though, he seems very questioning. I wonder if Barry comes to Felicity to help him with something Flashpoint related. Of course, he won't tell Iris who will be once again in the dark >.<

Maybe Flashpoint has Barry still coming to Starling in season 2. A young Barry could still be fascinated with strange occurrences based on seeing the Flash's when he was 11. Maybe this Barry&Felicity dated back in s2-s3 (before Oliver,Ray&Oliver) so him coming and spending some time with Felicity now makes Oliver think Felicity is dating Barry again.  And this could still be the case if FP is short but with little changes. 

[Velocity23]

Iris and Barry barely know each other in that sizzle reel for season 3. So i dont know why he would confide in her.

[dtissagirl]

Even if Barry still came to SC in 208-209, there are still so many ways this can go wrong for Arrow. Felicity met Cisco and Caitlin by visiting Barry during his coma. But if Cisco and Caitlin weren't there during Barry's coma, then Felicity never met them. So she never gave them the vial with the mirakuru cure. Bye bye continuity.

[lemotomato]

16 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Arrow's 100th episode will be more about Supergirl than Arrow. I am shocked by this development. Truly shocked! 

In the comicbookmovie.com article, all MG actually said was that Supergirl would be in the crossovers. Clickbait title is clickbaity. 

Edited July 28, 2016 by lemotomato

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

In the article, what MG actually said was that Supergirl would be in the crossovers. Clickbait title is clickbaity. 

While he was a whole lot of word salad in the quote i posted he kind of implied that Supergirl would be showing up in each Show. That seems to be the only "crossover".  

Edited July 28, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

It may be Arrow's 100th, but the network is going to put Supergirl first.

I think the most an Arrow fan can hope for is some winks to the audience, a comment about Green Arrow being the first maybe.

[calliope1975]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Even if Barry still came to SC in 208-209, there are still so many ways this can go wrong for Arrow. Felicity met Cisco and Caitlin by visiting Barry during his coma. But if Cisco and Caitlin weren't there during Barry's coma, then Felicity never met them. So she never gave them the vial with the mirakuru cure. Bye bye continuity.

Yep. Slade and his Mirukuru Army killed all of Starling City. The end. Thanks, Barry!

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

In the comicbookmovie.com article, all MG actually said was that Supergirl would be in the crossovers. Clickbait title is clickbaity. 

True. But I remember them saying that setting up LoT wouldn't take over any episodes of Arrow and it did. I also sat through the Hawks and their awful flashbacks for the last crossover so basically I trust no one and especially not MG. I guess we'll see. 

Edited July 28, 2016 by Guest

[bijoux]

10 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Yep. Slade and his Mirukuru Army killed all of Starling City. The end. Thanks, Barry!

But DD would have less people to kill? Glass half full.

Of shit.

[ARLES]

so regarding Barry and Flashpoint and how he can be Felicity's BF and most of Arrow continuity  still gets held  up. 

Whatever adventures happened with team flash and Team arrow didnt happen but the outcome was still the same. You don't need the means to equal up just the ends. So Team arrow still got the mirikuru cure, just a different way that didnt involve Team flash. 

You can still have barry come to star city in season 2 and meet team arrow and have a relationship with them, same exact relationship, different means but same exact ends to thier relationship. 

You can have barry know abou team arrow be a friend to oliver, has helped team arrow before ect..

Barry had a thing for Felicity, didnt work, Olicity happened, then after baby mama disaster, Felicity decided to give Barry a shot.  

Olicity is upheld, team arrows relationship with barry is uphelp. 

--------------------

Season 3 episode 2 of the Flash, barry tells felicity about what he did, tells her to keep it a secret until he can fix it, she smacks barry for being stupid, gives him some advice, offers her help, and tells him good luck. 

[dtissagirl]

The problem still is the absence of Caitlin and Cisco from Team Arrow's existence between late S2 and 501 has got to create changes, or else it's just shitty writing. Caitlin saved Lyla's life, so is Lyla dead by boomerang?

[Belinea]

8 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

 so is Lyla dead by boomerang?

Don't even! That'd be the kind of horrible storyline I expect at times from them...

[doesntworkonwood]

9 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

The problem still is the absence of Caitlin and Cisco from Team Arrow's existence between late S2 and 501 has got to create changes, or else it's just shitty writing. Caitlin saved Lyla's life, so is Lyla dead by boomerang?

I think this might be it actually. Everyone has been emphasising the effect FlashPoint has on Diggle in particular over any of the other characters in Arrow, so it's either a) something to do with his brother or b) something to do with his current family, Sara and Lyla. Since the Flash crew haven't met Andy, I'm very much leaning toward Lyla is dead and Sara never existed.

[ARLES]

13 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

The problem still is the absence of Caitlin and Cisco from Team Arrow's existence between late S2 and 501 has got to create changes, or else it's just shitty writing. Caitlin saved Lyla's life, so is Lyla dead by boomerang?

Lyla never gets hit with a boomerang, something else happened in that cave, lyla and felicity held thier ground without them getting hurt. every story with team flash, happened, just remove them and find a way for the same event to occur, 

2+2=4

0+4=4

3+1=4

4 is what matters, not that adds up to 4 when it comes to wonky time travel.

[dtissagirl]

That's humongous levels of lazy, if you're writing an alternate reality story in which the point is for stuff to be changed. Which, I can see the Arrow writers doing, sure, but it's still doing alt.realities wrong.

[ARLES]

7 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

That's humongous levels of lazy, if you're writing an alternate reality story in which the point is for stuff to be changed. Which, I can see the Arrow writers doing, sure, but it's still doing alt.realities wrong.

the excuse will be it wont last anyways, so we wont bother lol

[dtissagirl]

That's why I so dearly wish Barry would fix his own damn timeline on his own damn show in 301, so that nothing in Arrow's continuity has to be retroactively fucked.

[tv echo]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I came across a quote from GG the other day but now i can't seem to find it.

In the quote GG mentioned that Barry will start to forget the other timeline.  Does anyone remember the quote and if GG meant he comes back to Prime Flarrowverse and forgets the Flashpoint Timeline or is he still in Flashpoint and starts to forget the Real/Prime timeline? 

Yesterday I posted video of a Showbiz Junkies interview with GG on page 41 of the Spoilers thread, from which I transcribed the following (if you watch the video, he says some other stuff as well) - he meant that he starts to forget the original timeline because his old memories are slowly being replaced with the new Flashpoint memories:

Quote

-- GG: "He's the only one who knows about the other [original] timeline, but he does start to forget...  All of his memories are changing."

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

True. But I remember them saying that setting up LoT wouldn't take over any episodes of Arrow and it did. I also sat through the Hawks and their awful flashbacks for the last crossover so basically I trust no one and especially not MG. I guess we'll see. 

I don't trust him either, but my point is that MG didn't actually say anything in the article besides "SG is going to be on all the shows." It's a huge leap from that to "SG is going to be the focus of the 100th episode."

I'm guessing, based on the production schedule, that they haven't even written the episode yet. 

[Morrigan2575]

17 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Yesterday I posted video of a Showbiz Junkies interview with GG on page 41 of the Spoilers thread, from which I transcribed the following (if you watch the video, he says some other stuff as well) - he meant that he starts to forget the original timeline because his old memories are slowly being replaced with the new Flashpoint memories:

Thanks!

[tv echo]

I watched that GG interview again and have edited that quote to expand upon what he said, so here's the expanded quote:

Quote

-- GG talked about how Barry has been enjoying living with his two now living parents, even though he's 26 years old, and his parents don't understand why he doesn't move out. Then interviewer asked if Barry has two sets of memories now and GG replied: "Yeah. And I did just say this at another table, so it's already out there, but I don't know if I'm supposed to, but - He's the only one that knows about the other timeline, but he does start to forget. Like only the timeline he's in kinda is - All of his memories are changing. Like he starts to get memories of Flashpoint of with his parents that he never had. He's got brand new memories, but they're replacing things that he had with his West family, uh, memories."

Edited July 28, 2016 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

I'm so confused, Grant. I can't tell if "other" is the original timeline, or the warped timeline.

[Morrigan2575]

8 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I don't trust him either, but my point is that MG didn't actually say anything in the article besides "SG is going to be on all the shows." It's a huge leap from that to "SG is going to be the focus of the 100th episode."

I'm guessing, based on the production schedule, that they haven't even written the episode yet. 

Quote from MG

Quote

“It’s an external threat from outside the shows that will involve Supergirl coming over to Flash, then Arrow then Legends of Tomorrow,” Guggenheim said. “I don’t like to oversell. She is going to be coming over but we’re not going to do a full on Supergirl crossover episode. I don’t want to give you the wrong impression.”

I'm assuming the 'external to the shows" means external to the Flarrowverse. If that's the case it sounds like a villain/object type threat escapes Supergirl's Reality (Earth3?) and comes to the Flarrowverse. Forcing Supergirl to persue it across the multi-verse, hitting Central City first where she helps/saves/works with The Flash, then going to Arrow (wash/rinse/repeat) and finally catching/stopping bad thing and returning to her original Universe on LoT.

Does that mean Arrow's 100th episode is All About Supergirl? Guess it depends on what they do and how you view it.  To me (as of right now)  it sounds like this Crossover will very much center on Supergirl with Arrow people thrown in. However, time will tell.

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I watched that GG interview again and have edited that quote to expand upon what he said, so here's the expanded quote:

 

1 minute ago, dtissagirl said:

I'm so confused, Grant. I can't tell if "other" is the original timeline, or the warped timeline.

What if it's both? Maybe that's how they play the Flash S3? Flashpoint is resolved in 301 but Barry's memories start to blend together so we get glimpses of each Reality from episode to episode?  With Arrow just having the nu52 after effects? Oliver's new suit, Diggle's new kid/older kid/different gender kid (curse you @calliope1975) and whatever Felicity is carrying around? 

[tv echo]

I don't understand how Barry and Felicity would even meet in the Flashpoint timeline.  IIRC, it was the murder of his mother and his father's wrongful conviction, when little Barry saw a mysterious blur, that spurred Barry to pursue reports of unexplained phenomena and led Barry to take an unsanctioned road trip to Starling City - where he met Felicity.

Edited July 28, 2016 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

19 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

What if it's both? Maybe that's how they play the Flash S3? Flashpoint is resolved in 301 but Barry's memories start to blend together so we get glimpses of each Reality from episode to episode?  With Arrow just having the nu52 after effects? Oliver's new suit, Diggle's new kid/older kid/different gender kid (curse you @calliope1975) and whatever Felicity is carrying around? 

THAT WOULD BE MY PREFERENCE, OMG.

Changing story retroactively on Arrow = dumb as fuck. Flash can change whatever they want, it works on Flash because that's the point of story they're telling: how to UNCHANGE it. Changing stuff on Arrow so that it only affects the characters going forward = produces new story.

But then I remember Arrow has a writers room that thinks flashbacks = character development, and I weep.

Edited July 28, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Morrigan2575]

I don't understand how they plan on using Flashpoint if it's not resolved by 301. How does Arrow play out exactly the same with just itty bitty unimportant changes? 

Darhk still happened. Laurel still died, Havenrock still happened, Felicity still lost her job, Thea still quit being Speed, Diggle still killed Andy and joined the military....

This is all very confusing, very frustrating and ultimately seems utterly pointless

Edited July 28, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[QUEENC]

Hi, long time lurker here, just wonna give my 2 cents about this all FB mess LOL, 

Quote

Changing story retroactively on Arrow = dumb as fuck. Flash can change whateve they want, it works on Flash because that's the point of story they're telling: how to UNCHANGE it. Changing stuff on Arrow so that it only affects the characters going forward = produces new story.

But then I remember Arrow has a writers room that thinks flashbacks = character development, and I weep.

THIS !

Why should Arrow viewers who don't watch the Flash "accept" that something that happened in a show they don't watch affect their show ?

Apparently there's been a DR SDCC interview where he's "kinda, sort of" babble that Baby Sara could "become" Baby Connor, how could viewers who don't watch LOT even "understand" the writers reasoning behind the twist ?

Why should Arrow viewers waste their time watching S5 if some of it could be erase when Barry fixes FB ?

I'm sure the writers think they're being super clever and as usual MG gonna be totally surprise by the backlash that will probably follow ! That could actually be way more entertaining that FB !

Edited July 28, 2016 by QUEENC
first post !!!

[Sakura12]

Why can't they just go with Barry created an alternate timeline that doesn't affect the other shows timeline? Then just Barry has to get back to the correct timeline where nothing changed. 

[dtissagirl]

I'm really really hoping what we have going on right now is just actors and media who don't know how to TALK about time-travel, + using "Flashpoint" as both the name of the alternate timeline AND the full event of changing timelines twice.

I also hope they legit name the timelines on Flash so we can refer to them by name, haha.

[Lady Calypso]

This is the problem with having multiple shows in one universe, and having time travel involved. It has to affect all the shows in some way, or else they have to explain why things aren't affected. It's really dumb; I like both Arrow and The Flash for different reasons (I don't like Barry, but I think Grant Gustin saves that character from making me quit the show fully), but it would have been better if Flashpoint just affected The Flash. Now we have to worry about changes on Arrow, and it just makes both sides of the fandom mad for different reasons. For the comics fans, they could be mad if Flashpoint doesn't happen the way that they want it to (things aren't changed enough, Laurel isn't alive, certain things don't happen that they did in the comics as homages, etc) and the non-comics fandom will be mad if things are changed too much, as that will essentially erase however much of the show that has aired (baby Sara suddenly being baby Connor, if that is happening). Especially for people who don't watch The Flash, those people could range from being downright confused to downright upset that another show is messing with this one. 

I would have been fine with Flashpoint on The Flash if it didn't affected Arrow or have people worrying about it affecting Arrow.

As for this new boyfriend, for me, the best possibility is that it's Barry. First off, it wouldn't be a new guy, so we wouldn't have to see him all the time, ala Ray Palmer. Secondly, I liked Barry and Felicity's chemistry and it's a fun little thing that they can reference and have in crossovers. But ultimately, it's good for me because Barry will be aware of both timelines. Even with his quote as his memories are blending together from both timelines, there will be some sort of awareness that he wasn't originally with Felicity (at least in the timeline that we've been in since Flash season 1). If Barry tells Felicity about Flashpoint, she'll also be aware that they weren't originally dating, which means there might be less romantic scenes because of it. We'd still probably see some scenes of them being together, if Grant's right about the blending memories, but the dating aspect would be less of a big deal, I think. If she was dating a new character, like the new cop on Arrow, we'd see a lot more of it on Arrow and I don't think I want that. I'd rather have Barry/Felicity as we wouldn't get constant scenes with them every episode.

Or, at least, that's my hope with where that could go. Grant and Emily have good chemistry to me. They both at least look like they're having a lot of fun together, and I want fun for Felicity, instead of potential angst, which Arrow would deliver more of. 

[Morrigan2575]

22 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Why can't they just go with Barry created an alternate timeline that doesn't affect the other shows timeline? Then just Barry has to get back to the correct timeline where nothing changed. 

I can only assume it's because they want to have crossovers throughout the season so Arrow/Flash have to be in the same universe.  I think they have more leeway with LoT because they can do episodes like Star City 2046 or other self contained episodes that allow them to jump into AUs/different times and allow them interact with Arrow, Flash characters that may or may not be from Earth1.

[tv echo]

Spoilers from SDCC press roundtables (Jul. 23, 2016) - 
The Fandom interview with DR
(video posted by tv echo on page 41 of Spoilers thread)

-- Reporter asked, "When will Connor Hawke Diggle show up - baby Connor Hawke Diggle?"  DR replied: "Very good question. All I can say is that will be very soon. Um, how old - yeah, that's going to happen very soon." Reporter then asked,"Baby Connor Hawke Diggle?"  DR replied: "Well, it's - I don't know if that's going to happen very soon. But I think you'll find, um, more about - a little bit more about Connor Hawke."  Reporter asked, "Is Connor Hawke maybe your son, but not necessarily the son of your wife?"  DR replied: "Well, remember there's a lot of Earths, there's a lot of dimensional things happening. And, um, I think even in that episode, there was some [interdimensional?-unintelligible word] thing happening. Supergirl is on another Earth, for example, right? So, um, anything's possible. Who knows? I mean, John Diggle has a doppelganger someplace, right? So - I think about that stuff all the time. I think some of those questions that you ask - I think, in terms of like - You didn't ask this, but I'm going to say it anyway. Is what Flash did to our universe and is what Flash - his choices have? My guess is that we'll see some of that in the crossover. I don't know if we will, but somehow or other we have to bring Supergirl to our universe. I don't know how you do that."

ETA: I found his answers confusing and contradictory.

Edited July 28, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Spoilers from SDCC press roundtables (Jul. 23, 2016) - 
Showbiz Junkies interview with DR
(video posted by tv echo on page 41 of Spoilers thread)

-- On how soon Diggle will return, DR: "It's going to happen very soon. And, um, obviously he's on special - he's in Special Forces on assignment overseas. Of course, there's going to be some nefarious goings-on. Right? Because it's Arrow. And, um, he will come to [unintelligible word] he needs that team. And they also need him. He's recruiting a new team - Oliver - and Felicity. And it's going to be very difficult to replace Thea and John Diggle. So it's not going to be smooth sailing over the [unintelligible word]. And when he comes back to the team, um, he'll have something to say about it... He has a position, right? I mean, part of the reason why he left was because of Canary's death and the guilt he feels about it. So bringing inexperienced team members, to a man like John Diggle, he's going to have a, you know - Even as experienced as they could be, Oliver replacing Thea and John will be very difficult, and I think he's going to have something to say about that. I haven't read that, but knowing where the writers could go and knowing John Diggle, he will have something to say about it. ... I think he will have some criticism about the fact that you're bringing in people from 'off the streets,' so to speak, to risk their lives for the city... I haven't read those things yet, so I can't even flirt with the idea that I know. But yes, he will have an opinion."

Edited July 28, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I've also been reading some media speculation that Flashpoint will lead to Diggle becoming Green Lantern, but I haven't seen anything solid to back up that speculation.

Edited July 29, 2016 by tv echo

[Belinea]

Even though I am actively trying to keep the negativity in check, I do have to admit that S5's potential storylines are already giving me a headache. It just sounds so confusing and knowing the writers, they'll probably expect you to just get it, even though it might not make any sense whatsoever. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Well, there are always the post-episode interviews to explain what happened, why the characters said or did something, what their mindset is ... you know, all the stuff that is supposed to actually be made clear on the show. *rme*

[JenMD]

Regarding Baby Sara either getting a brother or disappearing & becoming Baby Connor - I don't watch LOT, but wasn't the future Star City ep that featured adult Connor presented as just one possible future?  That's how I understood what I read of the ep.  If that was the case, then Connor existed in that time but there's no need for us to meet him, unless they're turning our current timeline into that timeline (which I do not want, ftr).  I'm having a hard time envisioning these writers attempting to explain any of this in show. 

Reading all this spec is making my brain hurt.  Stupid Barry.

[thegirlsleuth]

I like the idea of John turning into Green Lantern, something that would make the erasing of Lyla and Sara acceptable (which I suspect is going to happen).  The only problem is the already established story that John is the father of Connor Hawke, since that twists comic canon into knots (and we would never want that!).

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

-- Reporter asked, "When will Connor Hawke Diggle show up - baby Connor Hawke Diggle?"  DR replied: "Very good question. All I can say is that will be very soon. Um, how old - yeah, that's going to happen very soon." Reporter then asked,"Baby Connor Hawke Diggle?"  DR replied: "Well, it's - I don't know if that's going to happen very soon. But I think you'll find, um, more about - a little bit more about Connor Hawke."  Reporter asked, "Is Connor Hawke maybe your son, but not necessarily the son of your wife?"  DR replied:"Well, remember there's a lot of Earths,

OMG @calliope1975 was right! They're going to replace Baby Sara with Baby Connor Hawke Diggle! ?

PS - Does anyone remember DR saying at a Con that Baby Sara was getting another casting change? I'm really thinking they're either going to replace Sara with Connor or rapidly age Sara and make Baby Connor the kid.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Starfish35]

Erasing Sara and Lyla better not be one of the permanent changes.  That would really upset me.  

Edited July 28, 2016 by Starfish35

[Thundercatmary]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

Erasing Sara and Lyla better not be one of the permanent changes.  That would really upset me.  

Same, it will be bad enough if it's even temporary I really don't want that to be permanent.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Erasing Sara and Lyla better not be one of the permanent changes.  That would really upset me.  

Not that this necessarily means anything, but didn't DR talk about Lyla this past weekend and what an impact enlisting again will have on their family? I feel like he mentioned her more than once. 

[Carrie Ann]

13 minutes ago, JenMD said:

Regarding Baby Sara either getting a brother or disappearing & becoming Baby Connor - I don't watch LOT, but wasn't the future Star City ep that featured adult Connor presented as just one possible future?  That's how I understood what I read of the ep.  If that was the case, then Connor existed in that time but there's no need for us to meet him, unless they're turning our current timeline into that timeline (which I do not want, ftr).  I'm having a hard time envisioning these writers attempting to explain any of this in show. 

Reading all this spec is making my brain hurt.  Stupid Barry.

It was one possible future of our (at that point) current timeline, but it wasn't an alternate universe. So I always assumed that Connor Hawke/John Jr. would eventually exist in "our" world. Just assumed he would be Lyla and John's next kid. Now I feel like he's going to be their only kid. :(

[Lady Calypso]

I think Lyla will stay because if baby Connor's really going to be a thing, and it does sound like DR confirmed it, then I imagine they'll go with Lyla as the mother. I don't think they'd bring back Carly to be the mother, in all honesty. But what I hope they do with baby Sara is, instead of erasing her completely, they can just have Lyla become pregnant again with her, so she'll be Connor's baby sister. I don't mind if she reappears later (even if I'll miss baby Sara's baby actresses), but I don't want her disappearing permanently. Hopefully the writers see it this way too.