Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Belinea]

So is the big bad this season Oliver himself? As in I am truly my worst enemy? I choose to believe that the identity thing will not be dragged into S4. At least I hope not. So either way something's gotta give. And I would be baffled if Oliver Queen is going to lose out to the Arrow. Because if he is just the Arrow or the leader of the LoA he will have no personal agenda anymore. Why should any viewer care about it then?

 

As for the relationship stuff. At the end of the day, they are a TV show and they want to appeal to everyone. So even if I don't like O/L and I am dreading them going there, I have a feeling that if the show wants it, they will have them reunite. Maybe not tomorrow but sometime down the line. Because of that I believe that they would never come out and say this is done. They are leaving all doors open. 

 

As for R/F: Do I think it will end? Yes. Do I enjoy watching it? No. Do they care? No.  In the end I believe they tell the story they want to tell even if it means alienating viewers but since Arrow has stable ratings (even slightly up from last year I think) they will keep doing that and nothing will stop them. Not even criticism. Least of all from people that write MG on his tumblr. That seems to be some sort of fun past time. He likes it when people are mad and likes to rile them up even more because he knows that people who are angry will still return. It only becomes a problem if people start to lose interest because of the horrible stories and leave the show behind.

 

Oh and btw: What was the jump the shark moment of 3x15. Didn't MG say that there is a moment in 3x15 where people might think they are jumping the shark? What was that? Iron Man? R/F? The Offer? The whole episode in retrospective?

[AyChihuahua]

Exactly, two out of what, several score shows since the CW started?  It's very unlikely, statistically, that Arrow will go anywhere near that long.  If MG leaves it might have a better shot.

 

And oh man, the first post-Kripke year of SPN was PAINFUL.

[Starfish35]

I thought the "jump the shark" moment was supposed to be later, like 318 or thereabouts.

[apinknightmare]

Oh and btw: What was the jump the shark moment of 3x15. Didn't MG say that there is a moment in 3x15 where people might think they are jumping the shark? What was that? Iron Man? R/F? The Offer? The whole episode in retrospective?

 

I had to have been Ra's offer.

[catrox14]

Okay, I've been mulling this way too long.  At this point, I am waiting for a Bobby Ewing dream flip of the script.  I hope we find out this whole thing is in Oliver's mind and he's still fighting Count Vertigo as himself in the season finale.  I am not even kidding.

 

It would solve many problems.  The killing of Sara; the ascension of Laurel to BC; Felicity and Ray go away; Oliver doesn't die and doesn't make dumb decisions about Malcolm and Thea.  Then s4 they can pick up with Oliver having experienced it all in his head which allows him to realize he can be the Arrow and Oliver Queen and he asks Felicity out on the date that he never actually had.

Edited March 1, 2015 by catrox14

[Carrie Ann]

We've talked about this a few times, and the crossovers are the sticking point for the Season-Long Delusion idea, I think.

[catrox14]

We've talked about this a few times, and the crossovers are the sticking point for the Season-Long Delusion idea, I think.

 

I'm sorry. I didn't see any discussion about drug induced for Oliver for quite some time. But I don't think the crossovers necessarily eliminate that altogether.  I'll just drop the discussion point since I clearly missed something recent. 

[foreverevolving]

But you all forgetting that this is the CW, the network that allows shows with a 0.9 total viewership to live on (beauty and the beast if i am not mistaken). so far Arrow has a steady 2.5(-/+) viewership weekly this year, and a steady 1.0-ish in the demo weekly. as long as it can keep those numbers or not fall under 1.0, Arrow can carry on for a full decade. Hack i wouldn't be surprised if TVD will get to 10 years- they're at season 6 with a 1.8 total and 0.9 demo...

[AyChihuahua]

Maybe by then Amell will have as flabby a physique as the [great] Ra's al Ghul.

[chaos is welcome]

UGH that it seems they are totally going to be bringing the Lazarus Pit fully into play.  

 

Used to love that this show was grounded in reality. Now we have vigilante-ing after a few months of "training", flying, and this.  No.  I wish I had stopped after S2 finale.  I never want to see any of this. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by stacey

[Carrie Ann]

I'm sorry. I didn't see any discussion about drug induced for Oliver for quite some time. But I don't think the crossovers necessarily eliminate that altogether.  I'll just drop the discussion point since I clearly missed something recent. 

 

I didn't mean to shut it down, just meant that when we've talked about it, that has been the problem identified with how they could make that plausible within the continuities of each show. The Felicity who visits Barry in CC in TF104 is still not with Oliver, and she refers to the Barry/Oliver conversation on the roof (which actually happened after the Vertigo, so Oliver wouldn't even know Barry woke up or was The Flash at all); when the team visits CC in TF108, they mention Canary's murder. Had the crossovers only happened on the Arrow side, I could believe that this is the kind of shark-jump MG was referring to. But I think they would negate two episodes (at least) of The Flash as well, if they did that. I would be interested in your idea of how to get around it.

[kismet]

I'm sorry. I didn't see any discussion about drug induced for Oliver for quite some time. But I don't think the crossovers necessarily eliminate that altogether.  I'll just drop the discussion point since I clearly missed something recent. 

I love your idea about it being a dream or in the mind of OQ. I think you could have it be that he never woke up from the Fall and that would eliminate the having to negate 3a crossovers, but doesn't resolve SL death. Both of those would still exist as would RP/ATOM. But it is hard to explain away some of the other stuff or we would have to give up good stuff like Dyla wedding, so I love your theory and will try to make it work in my head, if I figure it out, Ill post something. But it might not be realistic for the writers to execute, but it would be so nice to have it explain some of the OOC moments and poor plot moments. They would have to start dropping some subtle hints that perhaps things are perhaps only happening in one person's perspective to make the reveal worthwhile. I would be impressed and truly enjoy if the show was able to pull it off.

Edited March 1, 2015 by kismet

[catrox14]

The Flash has time travel so Barry could go back in time on his show too. It could also reset that Sara lives and makes her way to the new spinoff.  I swear if the show could pull that off I would forgive all of s3

[statsgirl]

At this point, I'd even take anything after 3x09 being a pain-induced dream.  It still wouldn't get rid of Sara's death or Felicity kissing Ray, but we wouldn't have Laurel suited up and in the lair, Oliver teaming up with MM and saving him, and Ra's offer,  Also would avoid the future storylines of Oliver accepting the offer, the Flying Atom and Raylicity.

[Kordi]

So is the big bad this season Oliver himself? As in I am truly my worst enemy?

I guess that´s exactly the point of this third season: Oliver is the Arrow´s big antagonist, even more so than Malcolm and Ra´s. In 3x01 we witnessed the drug induced fight between Oliver and the Arrow. Oliver apparently won. Now, S3 is about the Arrow fighting back against Oliver, trading off bit after bit of his humanity. And I guess that the season will end with a kind of "reverse situation” of the season premier: In the season finale it will be the Arrow who (apparently) wins over Oliver (by becoming member or even leader of the LoA). This will be the absolute low point in our protagonist´s journey where his soul hits rock bottom. Then S4 is going to tell us a story of how our hero wins back his humanity, thereby bringing the Arrow and the Oliver part into an equilibrium.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Kordi

[Hook75]

I guess that´s exactly the point of this third season: Oliver is the Arrow´s big antagonist, even more so than Malcolm and Ra´s. In 3x01 we witnessed the drug induced fight between Oliver and the Arrow. Oliver apparently won. Now, S3 is about the Arrow fighting back against Oliver, trading off bit after bit of his humanity. And I guess that the season will end with a kind of "reverse situation” of the season premier: In the season finale it will be the Arrow who (apparently) wins over Oliver (by becoming member or even leader of the LoA). This will be the absolute low point in our protagonist´s journey where his soul hits rock bottom. Then S4 is going to tell us a story of how our hero wins back his humanity, thereby bringing the Arrow and the Oliver part into an equilibrium.

 

This is actually sounds good because it is all about OLIVER but will TIIC be able to make this show about Oliver/Arrow? 

Edited March 1, 2015 by Hook75

[AyChihuahua]

 

 

I had the pleasure to get to talk to Marc Guggenheim today. He have me this exclusive scoop for the remaining Arrow season after thinking what he could disclose!

"The Foundry will NOT be present in the last 4 episodes of the season. "

So, somebody's blowing up the foundry. I think we called this awhile ago.

[manbearpig]

If nothing else if they get a new base we can stop worrying about the foundry's security, or lack thereof. Even Laurel's apartment is a more secure location at this point.

[apinknightmare]

So, somebody's blowing up the foundry. I think we called this awhile ago.

 

 

Or Oliver and Co. get found out and are on the run and since everyone and their mother knows where the Arrow operates from, it's not safe to go there. 

Edited March 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

Amell, I believe it was, said they "literally blow up the show," in 19. 

[DrSpaceman10]

Based on the fact that the foundry won't be present in the last four episodes of the season, the city (Quentin) is seemingly hunting down the Arrow (from BTS pictures + 3x19 being called "Public Enemy"), and SA mentioning something recently about a secret costume fitting (maybe for a LOA costume/Ra's robe?); it seems like Oliver might be forced to accept the position as the new Ra's.

 

I think that Oliver will turn down Ra's at first (in 3x16), but Ra's will force Oliver to accept the position by attacking the city and dismantling the reputation of the Arrow to the point where Oliver can no longer be effective as a vigilante. MG also mentioned that an Olicity scene in 3x20 would be both "extremely good and extremely bad", maybe Oliver relents to Ra's and leaves Starling City to become the new head of the LOA (which would be the extremely bad part), but Felicity tells Oliver that she loves him before he leaves (which would be the extremely good part). Then the team will have 3x21/22/23 to somehow stop Ra's, or get Oliver out of the league?

Edited March 1, 2015 by drspaceman10

[apinknightmare]

Amell, I believe it was, said they "literally blow up the show," in 19. 

 

Ah, I didn't know that.

[calliope1975]

Correct me if I'm wrong (and since I'm picking and choosing which episodes to watch to save my sanity, I could very well have missed something) - this was Ray's first flight, right? Had he done any test flights previously? Because if not, I'll be expecting Starling City Sanitation to be scraping his body off the ground in the next episode.

 

And why aren't they letting him shrink instead of being Phony Stark - also, whomever came up with that, I love you. It is perfect. Their excuse of Arrow being grounded went out the window when they brought in flying dudes and put the Lazarus Pit into play with Ra's being super old. 

 

So, we're blowing up the club now and really getting rid of the lair? Not like last year when they said they were getting rid of the lair and then didn't. Sigh. I hate everything this show has chosen to be.

[Hook75]

So, somebody's blowing up the foundry. I think we called this awhile ago.

 

So we can stop asking why Felicity is not there anymore with TA, LOL.

[Kordi]

Then the team will have 3x21/22/23 to somehow stop Ra's, or get Oliver out of the league?

It would make me happy if TA somehow managed to get Oliver out of the League again before S3 ends. But do you really think there will be enough time to do that? Three episodes ain´t that much screen time... Furthermore, I doubt that we will see an Oliver who has regained/ saved his humanity at the end of S3, because: WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF CONTINUING HIS STORY IN FURTHER SEASONS? By overcoming the psychological damage he suffered NOW (in S3) he would reach his goal "prematurely", and the story would be finished. I´m afraid, Oliver won´t become really psychologically healthy until the end of the series. His emotional issues are what defines the contents of the show, aren´t they? This makes me think that at the end of S3 Oliver will still be part of the League. The show runners have to slow down/ stall Oliver´s character progress or even make him go through some character regression in order to tell the story they want to tell.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Kordi

[AyChihuahua]

For me, it will be massively, massively depressing and a huge regression for him to end the season in the League.  I'm already out for the rest of this season, and that will just start next season out in a depressing suck-spiral, too.

[closer2fine]

-- Asked if, from an Olicity shipper's POV, the scene between Oliver and Felicity in 3x20 is good or bad, MG says: "I would say it’s a very fair mix of extremely good AND extremely bad."

 

My speculation here is that Felicity tells Oliver she's in love with him, which would be extremely good. And then, of course, extremely bad, because he's leaving anyway to go be Ra's Ollie Ghul. 

[catrox14]

LOL I laughed at Ra's Ollie Ghul  and then I just wanted to run around shouting

 

"Ollie Ollie Ra's In Free"

 

and I have no idea why

Edited March 2, 2015 by catrox14

[KirkB]

Because it's funny. Well done.  :)

[chaos is welcome]

My speculation here is that Felicity tells Oliver she's in love with him, which would be extremely good. And then, of course, extremely bad, because he's leaving anyway to go be Ra's Ollie Ghul.

This is what made me nervous with how 3.01 played out....maybe I can be with you...whoops never mind

I love you, but it doesn't matter.

You love me, but THAT doesn't matter either.

Felicity really does deserve better.

[DrSpaceman10]

It would make me happy if TA somehow managed to get Oliver out of the League again before S3 ends. But do you really think there will be enough time to do that? 

 

Yes, I do think it's possible that three (potentially) episodes would be enough to get Oliver out of the league or defeat Ra's. I think that if Oliver were going to be in the LOA at the very end of Season Three/start of Season Four he wouldn't join until 3x23. If Oliver joins in 3x20, then I think the final episodes of this season would be like last season where most of the fight against Slade took place in 2x21,22,23. 

 

On the other hand, I also think that there's a possibility that Oliver is still in the LOA at the end of this season. If I'm being optimistic though, I feel like the writers wouldn't start a season with a murder and then end with Oliver being in the LOA (and possibly forsaking all of his humanity).

 

Furthermore, I doubt that we will see an Oliver who has regained/ saved his humanity at the end of S3, because: WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF CONTINUING HIS STORY IN FURTHER SEASONS? By overcoming the psychological damage he suffered NOW (in S3) he would reach his goal "prematurely", and the story would be finished. I´m afraid, Oliver won´t become really psychologically healthy until the end of the series. His emotional issues are what defines the contents of the show, aren´t they?

 

I do not think that Oliver deciding to be both Oliver Queen and the Arrow means that his journey is finished. Deciding to be Oliver Queen in addition to the Arrow doesn't suddenly mean that Oliver is psychologically healthy, as far as I'm concerned he still has a long way to go as a hero/person even if he decides to embrace his humanity. 

 

I really hope that this season ends with Oliver deciding to be both, otherwise I feel like this season will end up being way too depressing and kind of a waste of time.

[AyChihuahua]

They have to sell DVDs, right?  It's not casual viewers who buy DVDs, it's fans.  Trying to be optimistic...who's going to want to buy DVDs of this season with all this hellishness and then ending the season on a horrible note?  

[pootlus]

I can think of only one reason to buy the Blu-Rays - "The Secret Origin of Felicity Smoak" (also the last episode I watched).

 

I must admit to being curious about the great sea-change, although with the spin-off bringing Caity Lotz's awesomeness back to my screen I wouldn't object to a reset AT ALL, even if it does erase the awesomeness of TSOoFS.

[apinknightmare]

They're not going to reset the season, if only because of what was mentioned upthread - there are several crossovers with The Flash, and that would invalidate what happened over there, too. Three before 3x09, and three that we know of so far after (Felicity and Ray to CC, Cisco and Joe to SC and Quentin to CC). 

[Genki]

They will add a lot of shipper stuff to increase DVD sales.

I can't see them satisfactorily resolving the LOA situation in 3 episodes (if Oliver takes up the offer)...and I kind of want Oliver and Felicity seperate during the hiatus becuase I don't want all the good stuff to be in the comics yet again.

So I wouldn't mind if the season ends with Oliver as the Demon Head.

[AyChihuahua]

 

So I wouldn't mind if the season ends with Oliver as the Demon Head.

It's interesting how different people are, because that would permanently end my interest in the show.

 

And shipper moments are nice and all, but if they end with Oliver effectively saying "screw you" to Felicity and her love to become the head of a group of literal professional murderers, I don't see how that makes anyone, including shippers, buy the DVDs.  That's what youtube and Tumblr are for.

[calliope1975]

They will add a lot of shipper stuff to increase DVD sales.

 

I'm genuinely interested in what they could add to entice me to buy the DVDs. I can just buy The Calm (for the first 40 minute) and Secret Origins on iTunes. 

 

I don't see how they can wrap the LOA stuff, based on the spoilers we've already gotten, before the end of the season. I think it might just drag on until S4. I was super excited about Ra's and the LOA in the summer, but the execution has been terrible. 

[jay741982]

MG said Felicity and Diggle have big stuff coming up next season. We might finally get the H.I.V.E story for Diggle(DR said They are coming next season) and Felicity might be getting the Finding her Father story or she'll be battling for Oliver's soul so to speak if season 3 ends with Oliver being In LOA/ New Ra's Ah ghul

[scarynikki12]

If Oliver ends the season as the head of the League of Assassins, then the show really needs to go all out and focus on that for more than the season 4 premiere.  He can dismantle the organization and return to Starling City by November sweeps, but having him make this decision and then change his mind an episode or two later just bad storytelling.  I wouldn't like seeing him take over the League, but they need to commit to the idea if they really go there.  I expect season 4 to show his time in the Bratva, so they could at least parallel that with the present day story if they decide to do it.

[apinknightmare]

I'd been hoping that the show would end on some kind of a cliffhanger, but didn't MG say something about them planning 3.5 comics too?

I also can't figure out how they'd end the season. Three eps might be enough time for Oliver to join and get out of the League, but wouldn't becoming Ra's successor involve some mentoring? I can't imagine he'd just join up and that would be it although with this show I guess you never know. So, would Oliver just be a member until then, or....?

I just can't see him being a legit successor if the premiere is supposed to be some kind of indicator for the end of the season. And if the number of heroes protecting the city influences his decision making, is that decision to be Oliver Queen or to be Ra's? And does he go back on his no-kill rule or does he turn the League of Assassins into the League of People who Totally Won't Kill You?

[Starfish35]

or does he turn the League of Assassins into the League of People who Totally Won't Kill You?

ROFL.

[Sakura12]

or does he turn the League of Assassins into the League of People who Totally Won't Kill You?

 

I think this version of Ra's already did that. It's seems so easy to kill them. 

[Belinea]

What happened to the backup lair? Why don't they just go there? I truly hope that there will be some sort of resolution to the theme this season because God knows that one season of it was dreadful enough. 

 

And I like the speculation that Oliver declines at first and then they force his hand.

Maybe Ra's al Ghul will come to SC and tell QL the Arrow's identity. Maybe over tea. It is not like they wouldn't have stuff to talk about ;-)

Edited March 2, 2015 by Belinea

[kismet]

If Oliver ends the season as the head of the League of Assassins, then the show really needs to go all out and focus on that for more than the season 4 premiere.  He can dismantle the organization and return to Starling City by November sweeps, but having him make this decision and then change his mind an episode or two later just bad storytelling.  I wouldn't like seeing him take over the League, but they need to commit to the idea if they really go there.  I expect season 4 to show his time in the Bratva, so they could at least parallel that with the present day story if they decide to do it.

This has been the most frustrating part of this season, because when you do bold story telling you have to commit to the choices you made at least for more than 1-2 episodes. So if they want to be bold, be bold... Don't go big & then back track. So I hope that whatever decision they make regarding OQ becoming the next Ras it lasts through to season 4. Or his decision is a cliffhanger and then they can figure out over the summer how to get the story line back on track. I do believe that we are in the middle of his journey, so this is the ideal time for them to have him hit rock bottom and becoming Ras might be a good way to illustrate that. As mentioned above, it also might make a nice segway into his Bratva story next season, since its probable that they will be done with Hong Kong after this season. So far in FB, OQ has been forced to do some bad things, but he hasn't become the cold-blooded killer that they said he was in S1. So they need to make him go a little darker in the FB, which the LoA & Bratva outlets allow him to do. TBH, I really am hoping he does enter the Ras school of leadership. I want OQ to emotionally heal & be happy, but it might be boring if they manage that be the end of s3, since we know it can't last. To use the word of the season -- It just wouldn't do his story/journey JUSTICE.

Edited March 2, 2015 by kismet

[CabotCove]

However it MG been brought to his attention multiple times, so even if he doesn't agree the perception is out there. IMO they are deliberately propping characters and they know it.

 

Yeah the perception is out there but not from everyone and what is there to support it?. The ratings have not been hit instead they are thriving, (maybe for different reasons), but they are. Emily is a find for the Arrowverse, obviously she is going to be used to help launch new shows and new heroes, not only because she is great but because it is engrained as part of her role. They take that away from her, what does she have. It the Oracle lite role,  the "new Chloe Sullivan" role.  What does she get out if it? well she gets more exposure, screentime, purpose. Hey I'm sure David/Ramsey would really appreciate it if he could trade her place for what he is being given now, or not given.

 

He could at least say something like, "okay, I can see why you might perceive it that way, but that is not what we were going for", instead of implying that many viewers don't know how to watch the show.

 

Thats basically what he said though. The first thing he said was that "Sorry you felt that way" to the person asking and the last being "Everyone’s mileage varies.". He explained why D/F cant always be at the forefront all the time.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Conell

[chaos is welcome]

I'd think it more likely that Oliver sees that she's with Ray and that makes him want to put more distance between them. To protect his own heart, and probably out of some noble notion that him being around might hurt Felicity's chances of being happy with another guy. Hey presto, Ra's Ollie Ghul is born! Briefly.

Let's not forget Tatsu's line that you'll have to sacrifice the thing you love most to beat Ra's  . . . I could see them using that as his motivation for staying away from Felicity, but these show runners like to imply these things rather than show them.  

[Genki]

Yeah the perception is out there but not from everyone and what is there to support it?. The ratings have not been hit instead they are thriving, (maybe for different reasons), but they are. Emily is a find for the Arrowverse, obviously she is going to be used to help launch new shows and new heroes, not only because she is great but because it is engrained as part of her role. They take that away from her, what does she have. It the Oracle lite role,  the "new Chloe Sullivan" role.  What does she get out if it? well she gets more exposure, screentime, purpose. Hey I'm sure David/Ramsey would really appreciate it if he could trade her place for what he is being given now, or not given.

 

Thats basically what he said though. The first thing he said was that "Sorry you felt that way" to the person asking and the last being "Everyone’s mileage varies.". He explained why D/F cant always be at the forefront all the time.

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree. 

 

 

Let's not forget Tatsu's line that you'll have to sacrifice the thing you love most to beat Ra's  . . . I could see them using that as his motivation for staying away from Felicity, but these show runners like to imply these things rather than show them.  

 

 

Oliver does take the most random shit to heart, "No prison can hold Malcolm", "A true hero dies so someone else can live", etc. so I guess he could be going with that.

 

If Oliver does accept Ra's offer in 3.20 I can see the farewell between Olicity to be WAY bigger than 3.09, I mean Oliver getting his affairs in order.

 

In order = The Sex with Felicity.

[catrox14]

 

Thats basically what he said though. The first thing he said was that "Sorry you felt that way" to the person asking and the last being "Everyone’s mileage varies.". He explained why D/F cant always be at the forefront all the time.

 

IMO, saying "Sorry you felt that way" is dismissive and patronizing and reduces the legitimate perception to a "feeling? and does not allow for an informed and engaged discussion as to WHY many in the audience came to that perception from the writing, acting etc.  Anyway we'll agree to disagree here.

 

I just hope that when the fanbase engages him again after making Oliver the Demon Head he comes up with better ways to discuss the show since he's putting himself out there to discuss it.

Edited March 2, 2015 by catrox14

[patchwork]

If Oliver does become the new heir I can't see it lasting beyond S4's opener but ITA it would make a nice contrast to the Bratva years. It's what the current FBs lack yes once in a while it connects to the current storyline on a personal level like Tatsu saving Oliver and Oliver/Lila bonding over what Waller taught them but overall there's no connection between the two stories. At least so far. 

 

Of course they could always do what I want and make Felicity's father either work for the mob or even a mob boss and have Bratva be the backdrop to a Felicity based arc. 

[catrox14]

I really hope they don't make Felicity's father anyone other than a boring regular ole dead beat Dad.  I love Felicity because she is ordinary but incredibly smart and braveand took on the Arrow mission because she wanted to do it, not because we find out she has DNA to some other super hero or super villain or mobster.