Spoiler Discussion Thread

[tofutan]

Because it's gross? Because it's a mental image you don't want in the same story as Olicity getting married? Why show evil nazis in romantic relationships with each other at all other than to be gross? And because the overall Arrowverse HAS pulled this story about people who are together in various universes before with Westallen. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by tofutan

[Angel12d]

I don't think it diminishes Olicity in any way but I still don't want to see Oliver kiss someone else and especially not in episodes leading to their wedding. Just IMO.

I'm honestly wondering why it's even necessary tbh. But whatever. It's happening so it's not like we can change it, haha.

[Primal Slayer]

Olicity gets married in the end, that's the important thing, they are the ones who win. Seeing two baddies kiss is something you have to live with for all of probably a minute of the entire crossover and for the entire season.

[Angel12d]

Very true! Hopefully I'll blink and miss it though. ?

[tangerine95]

1 minute ago, Angel12d said:

I don't think it diminishes Olicity in any way but I still don't want to see Oliver kiss someone else and especially not in episodes leading to their wedding. Just IMO.

I'm honestly wondering why it's even necessary tbh. But whatever. It's happening so it's not like we can change it, haha.

Same,I don't really care especially with nazi versions involved but it's such a random thing?Like did anyone even want to see that,there's never been any chemistry between Kara and Oliver in that way and that's not a comic book thing either so it feels weird if they do that.Maybe they just wanted the most unlikely pair for that and it's played for laughs if it even happens.

[Angel12d]

Just now, tangerine95 said:

Same,I don't really care especially with nazi versions involved but it's such a random thing?Like did anyone even want to see that,there's never been any chemistry between Kara and Oliver in that way and that's not a comic book thing either so it feels weird if they do that.Maybe they just wanted the most unlikely pair for that and it's played for laughs if it even happens.

I think they're just doing it as a OMG moment and because they can? Like, when else can they have Oliver and Kara kiss? Never. Haha. 

[tofutan]

Just now, Primal Slayer said:

Olicity gets married in the end, that's the important thing, they are the ones who win. Seeing two baddies kiss is something you have to live with for all of probably a minute of the entire crossover and for the entire season.

I think it's pretty shallow to only care about "winning". I don't care about ships that much. What I want to see is an emotionally consistent storyline. As if the whole "quickie wedding in the wake of Stein dying" rumors weren't unappealing enough. As a viewer, I care about a tonally fititng story. A potential Ollie/Kara baddie version thing is completely pointless and gratuitous and Stephen is kinda gross when what he talkes from this is gushing about Melissa and wanting to work with her again. 

Once more, no matter how much people hate it, Arrowverse HAS pulled this thing with people being connected across universes, so there would absolutely be people immediately wondering whether real Ollie and Kara should have a spark now too because their evil versions had a spark (kind of like on Buffy evil!Willow was gay). 

The writers should be ashamed of themselves when hey abuse nazis doppelgangers just to have non-canonical hookups. It's gross to the max. 

2 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I think they're just doing it as a OMG moment and because they can? Like, when else can they have Oliver and Kara kiss? Never. Haha. 

Yeah, romantic nazis as an OMG moment. Not repulsive at all! As if I didn't have enough niggling doubts that the writers don't have nearly enough respect for the subject matter as would be required. So why not abuse nazis to get a hookup going that they apparently think is cool and are sad they can't justify getting off the ground in regular canon. Gross, gross, gross. 

[Primal Slayer]

3 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Same,I don't really care especially with nazi versions involved but it's such a random thing?Like did anyone even want to see that,there's never been any chemistry between Kara and Oliver in that way and that's not a comic book thing either so it feels weird if they do that.Maybe they just wanted the most unlikely pair for that and it's played for laughs if it even happens.

They've also only interacted with each other during last years crossover so there really wasn't anything to show. I can absolutely see the temptation of being able to play with doppelgangers and having them do things that you otherwise wouldn't be able to do with the regular characters. It's an easy way of getting ideas out of your head. 

[Angel12d]

3 minutes ago, tofutan said:

Yeah, romantic nazis as an OMG moment. Not repulsive at all! As if I didn't have enough niggling doubts that the writers don't have nearly enough respect for the subject matter as would be required. So why not abuse nazis to get a hookup going that they apparently think is cool and are sad they can't justify getting off the ground in regular canon. Gross, gross, gross. 

Well, firstly, we don't know the context of the kiss, although I can't imagine them playing it as a romantic moment tbh? If anything it'll probably be two bad guys who get off on being bad and kiss. Yes, the Nazi stuff is gross but these are the Arrowverse writers so it's not exactly surprising. The bar is pretty low, IMO. 

[Primal Slayer]

4 minutes ago, tofutan said:

I think it's pretty shallow to only care about "winning". I don't care about ships that much. What I want to see is an emotionally consistent storyline. As if the whole "quickie wedding in the wake of Stein dying" rumors weren't unappealing enough. As a viewer, I care about a tonally fititng story. A potential Ollie/Kara baddie version thing is completely pointless and gratuitous and Stephen is kinda gross when what he talkes from this is gushing about Melissa and wanting to work with her again. 

Once more, no matter how much people hate it, Arrowverse HAS pulled this thing with people being connected across universes, so there would absolutely be people immediately wondering whether real Ollie and Kara should have a spark now too because their evil versions had a spark (kind of like on Buffy evil!Willow was gay). 

The writers should be ashamed of themselves when hey abuse nazis doppelgangers just to have non-canonical hookups. It's gross to the max. 

Yeah, romantic nazis as an OMG moment. Not repulsive at all! As if I didn't have enough niggling doubts that the writers don't have nearly enough respect for the subject matter as would be required. So why not abuse nazis to get a hookup going that they apparently think is cool and are sad they can't justify getting off the ground in regular canon. Gross, gross, gross. 

He's being gross because he enjoyed working with Melissa and wants to do it again? I doubt he wants Oliver to get with Kara in any way/shape/form in their regular roles. 

And the Arrowverse has shown that characters do share traits on some Earths but Earth X Oliver/Kara actually existing in the same world and hooking up when there probably is no Felicity (she's probably dead) and or Laurel or Sara doesn't really make think there may be feelings between their E-1/38 counterparts since these characters grew up in extremely different situations just as it doesnt make me think that our Oliver/Kara could turn evil and go all Nazi on the world. 

And I didn't see anything romantic between Vamp Willow/Vamp Xander. I saw two sadistic characters who were together which is probably the same way Ill see Nazi Oliver/Kara if they are indeed a couple.

[tofutan]

Let's all remember how the crossover is being advertised: 

Quote

 "I don't think anyone is going to see that coming. It's very much a dark love story. It's the underpinnings of that that will make the Earth-X element a real contrast to that. Oliver [Stephen Amell] has a big role to play in it and it's bigger and better than any crossover we've done in the past. It's going to be epic."

and

Quote

"It's Oliver and one other character in the Arrowverse's story," Mericle said. "It really explores the question of true love, and what does that look like? It's emotionally really compelling, and you're going to be surprised by what he learns and how he learns it and who he learns it form. It's pretty crazy stuff, I'm not going to lie."

And in the middle of that dark love story and the question of true love you are gonna plopp some random stuff about Ollie's doppelganger sucking face with Melissa Benoist? Even if the character Ollie learns it from is Earth X Felicity or Tommy or whoever, how is having a throwaway hookup stuff with an alternate version of Kara not gonna severely undermine that? 

[apinknightmare]

I’m not really sure what the big deal is. They’re characters I don’t know or care about and they’re Nazis who should rot, so...make out all you want, trash. 

[tofutan]

21 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Well, firstly, we don't know the context of the kiss, although I can't imagine them playing it as a romantic moment tbh? If anything it'll probably be two bad guys who get off on being bad and kiss. Yes, the Nazi stuff is gross but these are the Arrowverse writers so it's not exactly surprising. The bar is pretty low, IMO. 

This is the big advertised crossover and the event where two of their core couples get married. I don't feel strange for demanding a bit more than "well it's not surprising that they are gross". I don't watch all the Arrowverse all the time. But my plan was to tune in for the crossover, at the very least I expect not to be grossed out in the middle of a story about wedding and tragically losing beloved characters like Stein. 

Quote

they’re Nazis who should rot, so...make out all you want, trash. 

Why should I be forced to watch nazis make out? The job of nazis should be to be punched by the good guys. And do you really believe they would be above trying to make it weird sexy? Arrow must really have broken its audience for everybody to be so okay with that. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by tofutan

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, tofutan said:

 

Why should I be forced to watch nazis make out? The job of nazis should be to be punched by the good guys. And do you really believe they would be above trying to make it weird sexy? Arrow must really have broken its audience for everybody to be so okay with that. 

Well, I mean...evil people fall in love and have sex. We don’t *have* to watch them make out if we don’t want to. If that’s even what it is and not just some random kiss. If it’s not E-1 Oliver - the one who’s actually marrying Felicity - I’m just not sure why that’s upsetting? But that’s just MHO. 

[Morrigan2575]

8 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I’m not really sure what the big deal is. They’re characters I don’t know or care about and they’re Nazis who should rot, so...make out all you want, trash. 

Ding ding ding!

[Primal Slayer]

9 minutes ago, tofutan said:

 

Why should I be forced to watch nazis make out? The job of nazis should be to be punched by the good guys. And do you really believe they would be above trying to make it weird sexy? Arrow must really have broken its audience for everybody to be so okay with that. 

They arent forcing you to watch it though.

[KenyaJ]

LOL. We'll all play along and pretend like we don't know where it's from either, Stephen. ?

[Soulfire]

[Soulfire]

[calliope1975]

3 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I’m not really sure what the big deal is. They’re characters I don’t know or care about and they’re Nazis who should rot, so...make out all you want, trash. 

 Right? I don't particularly want Nazi Oliver near any version of a Felicity so he can throw down with whoever. And if my Oliver has to smooch as part of a ruse so be it. 

[Soulfire]

[leopardprint]

I don't know, in the context of those WM quotes, it sounds like there is a possibility that the Kazi/Naziver storyline might be a bigger part than a random background smooch and then it's just like why? 

Also I feel like an alien (even a superpowered one) doesn't really fit with the whole master race thing since she's another species entirely.

ETA:

Born into the SS? I feel like these crossovers are going to slot in just behind Hogan's Heroes is the historical accuracy rankings. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by leopardprint

[Angel12d]

SA's explanation has me like

[calliope1975]

It all got approved. Hahahaha. Like the CW is known for their sensitivity. Oh SA you sweet summer child.

[Angel12d]

It all sounded a little too close to humanizing Nazis for my liking tbh. He can't be that clueless, surely?

[Midnight Lullaby]

Does he/the show know what the SS were? “Born in the SS”?

Anyway I hope they aren’t counting on people to feel sorry for the Nazis (the EX version of the characters we know that SA thinks had no choice) because it’s not happening. Well at least on my part, you can never really tell with people.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[SmallScreenDiva]

11 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

It all sounded a little too close to humanizing Nazis for my liking tbh. He can't be that clueless, surely?

Weeeeelllllllllll ... I mean the past has shown he could be. But "it got approved" to me sounds like "even if I don't personally like it they got the OK so I'm gonna just try and sell it but not too hard"

[insomniadreams88]

Yeah, if they expect me to care about the Nazi versions of characters and their relationships ... I’m not going to. I’m just going to be waiting for our characters to defeat them. Do they think people will be going, “oh, show me more of Earth-X Oliver and Earth-X Kara!” (if that ends up happening) while our Felicity and Iris (and it looks like Kara too?) have been taken by Nazis? Nope. I want all Nazis far away from our characters. 

[Mellowyellow]

"It got approved" sounds like his disclaimer in case people hassle him about it. 

What I don't get is SA and DR trying to sell XKara/XOliver to Olicity fans. That's plain weird. Unless they're preparing them. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

2 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

"It got approved" sounds like his disclaimer in case people hassle him about it. 

What I don't get is SA and DR trying to sell XKara/XOliver to Olicity fans. That's plain weird. Unless they're preparing them. 

Maybe it's like when Stephen spoiled Detective Mayo. They're hoping fans won't be too outraged and squawk on Twitter if they're already braced for it?

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Weeeeelllllllllll ... I mean the past has shown he could be. But "it got approved" to me sounds like "even if I don't personally like it they got the OK so I'm gonna just try and sell it but not too hard"

Same

[Mellowyellow]

2 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Maybe it's like when Stephen spoiled Detective Mayo. They're hoping fans won't be too outraged and squawk on Twitter if they're already braced for it?

Ya that's where my mind went to as well. Which makes me think XOliver/XKara is a definite thing. 

Another thing I thought of was I'm sure I saw something about MB working with EBR and CP during the crossover. Can't remember if the other girls were there too. If the others weren't there I wonder if Overgirl shakes them (Felicity and Iris) up a bit after the kidnapping.

[apinknightmare]

If Overgirl is a villain at all worth her salt, she'd do some tongue twisters with Evil Oliver in front of Felicity.

Also, if E-X Oliver and Kara are together, I'd love for E-1 Oliver and Kara to get to see it just for reaction shots, which would probably be pretty great.

[Chaser]

I'm just glad it's not any version of Laurel.

[Angel12d]

It's okay. I have my eye bleach ready anyway. 

[bijoux]

19 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Ya that's where my mind went to as well. Which makes me think XOliver/XKara is a definite thing. 

Another thing I thought of was I'm sure I saw something about MB working with EBR and CP during the crossover. Can't remember if the other girls were there too. If the others weren't there I wonder if Overgirl shakes them (Felicity and Iris) up a bit after the kidnapping.

Kara's in the photi when Oliver (I assume) finds Felicty. She's also wearin what looks like a hospital gown to me. Taken to be tested on? 

[Trini]

14 hours ago, BunsenBurner said:

I think it would be funny/great if Oliver kissed Iris. I actually think it will be Kara. 

Yesssss. The Love Square will finally be complete! Mwahahaha!

But seriously; maybe Oliver just gives Iris a friendly cheek peck at the rehearsal dinner? Unless there are other spoilers that confirm a Kara-X/Oliver-X relationship.

[Soulfire]

Edited November 19, 2017 by Soulfire

[leopardprint]

A Diggle-X/Oliver-X relationship would be way more interesting than one with Kara-X. 

[Angel12d]

Well, at least we know it's Oliver/Kara for sure. They're the "dark love story" WM was on about, I guess? It doesn't even make sense I'm ? ? ?

[Primal Slayer]

4 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

A Diggle-X/Oliver-X relationship would be way more interesting than one with Kara-X. 

I wish they had the balls to go there.

[leopardprint]

6 hours ago, Angel12d said:

Well, at least we know it's Oliver/Kara for sure. They're the "dark love story" WM was on about, I guess? It doesn't even make sense I'm ? ? ?

Unless it's typical WM oversell, I don't even know what Oliver would learn from Oliver-X/Kara-X about true love unless they are super toxic and he's like "I better lock this down with Felicity or I am going to end up with a Nazi or Susan Williams."  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Edited November 20, 2017 by leopardprint

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Well, at least we know it's Oliver/Kara for sure. They're the "dark love story" WM was on about, I guess? It doesn't even make sense I'm ? ? ?

Yeah, I'm interested in what lesson he's going to learn about true love from two Nazis sucking face.

[insomniadreams88]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

Yeah, I'm interested in what lesson he's going to learn about true love from two Nazis sucking face.

He’s so traumatized seeing a version of himself kissing someone who’s not Felicity (or even just hearing a version of himself is with someone who’s not Felicity), he realizes he must marry her immediately?

No, honestly, I have no idea. 

[Angel12d]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

Yeah, I'm interested in what lesson he's going to learn about true love from two Nazis sucking face.

This is my issue with this, aside from just not wanting to see Oliver kiss someone else because gross. I really don't know what the point of it is in terms of story. I'm baffled. Like, seeing Nazi Oliver with Nazi Kara is gonna make Oliver realize "Okay, better marry the woman I'm in love with and was gonna marry a year ago anyway!" Like...whaaaaaat?  ? 

[calliope1975]

Hey! It all got approved, okay. Let's not question it. 

Sorry, I don't think I'll ever get over that statement from SA. But yeah, the only lesson I can see Oliver learning is to not ever be like garbage Nazi people, and if my Oliver had to spend time with actual Nazis to learn that, boy has more problems than I thought. 

[tangerine95]

I still think there will be something with nazi Oliver and earth x Felicity and that's where Oliver learning the love lesson comes from.I don't think the Kara thing will be more than for shock value from having the basically most unexpected people kiss.

[Angel12d]

3 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I still think there will be something with nazi Oliver and earth x Felicity and that's where Oliver learning the love lesson comes from.I don't think the Kara thing will be more than for shock value from having the basically most unexpected people kiss.

I'm definitely wondering where Earth X Felicity's grave comes into play. 

[Mrs. de Winter]

If I had any faith in the show I would think maybe Earth X Oliver, having fallen for Earth X Felicity, is now faking his role (including his relationship with Earth X Kara) and is actually helping the resistance.   Earth X Felicity faked her death (Earth X Oliver "killed" her to prove his loyalty and ensure her safety) and is now working with not so bad Earth X Oliver to try and save her world.  Similar to real Felicity helping real Oliver see he could be and do better (versus just killing everyone on the list). 

Oliver, since he needs to learn every lesson at least 12 billion times for it to stick, learns love is worth the risk (or something like that) and life is short and Felicity will always be his guiding star (or whatever the new quote is) no matter what or where, hence the wedding. 

But this show, is this show, so it is probably just for shock value that we get Kara and Oliver and Felicity's grave. 

[DrSpaceman10]

I mean why is an evil Kara/Oliver hookup necessary? It sounds like something Kreisberg would come up with, to be honest. They have some obsession with Oliver hooking up with as many women as possible, it's a little lot gross at times. I also don't see how it's a "dark love story" if they're both NAZIS. 

I really want to watch this crossover because it's the wedding and I want to see the build up to it, since we've been waiting so long, but ugh. It's so Arrow to give with one hand while slapping you in the face with the other. 

I think this crossover with go well with wine, haha.