Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Guest]

I never saw Oliver as someone who enjoyed killing. Ever. He found it easier to kill in s1 because he'd been in hell for five years and that's all he'd known at that point. It made sense for that point in the story.

So I'm gonna go with others here - Oliver will confess this secret after 6 days of mental and physical torture. He won't be in his right mind. He won't know what to believe. It'll almost be like he's been brainwashed. That's how I'm hoping this plays out. Otherwise this will be one massive retcon that I don't think I'll accept tbh.

[statsgirl]

What if the real reason Oliver disbands the team is because he's trying to protect them from Prometheus?

[insomniadreams88]

The fact that Chase has Oliver for six days raises a few questions: Where is Star City going to think their mayor is? Will we see Chase doing/saying something to perhaps affect Oliver as mayor while he has him chained up?

And since Chase lets him go and the team doesn't find him after six days, does that mean that he has him somewhere that even Helix's resources can't find or could it mean that Chase is behind Helix or at least involved with them? And Helix is going to be taking advantage of Felicity, making her do things for them, all while knowing that there's no way she'll find Oliver using their resources because they're mixed up with Chase and that's not what he/they want? 

[leopardprint]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

What if the real reason Oliver disbands the team is because he's trying to protect them from Prometheus?

Hmm I wonder if Felicity becomes angry at Oliver for quitting justice for Billy. Though they (the show, the EPs...) have not mentioned him in awhile. 

[Belinea]

I find it difficult to make your 'hero' admit he likes killing, but maybe he enjoys the killing of 'dirty/evil' people because it gives him the power to show how their powers are indeed limited.

Also didn't Slade want Oliver to kill himself as well or he did he want to torture him until he had nowhere to go because 'death would be a release.' 

What is Felicity doing during those six days? Adjusting her chair? If Helix knows everything, what is the problem finding him?

[Chaser]

Oliver is held by Prometheus for six days. Do they just not tell Thea?

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Belinea said:

What is Felicity doing during those six days? Adjusting her chair? If Helix knows everything, what is the problem finding him?

In my headcanon of evil things that won't come to fruition, I like to think that Prometheus is either behind Helix or has an in there, and they keep having her do them "favors" that get her in deeper and deeper while intentionally keeping her from the information she's looking for that will lead her to Oliver.

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

Oliver is held by Prometheus for six days. Do they just not tell Thea?

I will be pleasantly surprised if they address that. But I have a feeling the only time Thea might be mentioned is Chase to Oliver during the torture, especially since most of the episode is going to be Oliver/Chase and the flashbacks. 

[Mrs. de Winter]

So if Chase was all about breaking Oliver - and not killing Oliver - is he done?  Oliver confesses to his deep, dark secrete about loving to kill.  He is supposedly breaking up the team which theoretically also removes the people Oliver cares about too.  Thea is already gone.  So what else does he need to do?  Get him to resign as mayor?  Out him as the Green Arrow so he is arrested?  Kill his friends just for added torture? 

[Morrigan2575]

I don't care if Oliver loves killing, is indifferent to killing, a psycho or what. I watch freaking GoT and Black Sails, my heroes are Pirates (who killed a lot of people).

What bugs me is the repetition,  Oliver doubts he's a hero (again) , the team breaks up (again) blah blah blah. 

Edited March 21, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[way2interested]

6 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

In my headcanon of evil things that won't come to fruition, I like to think that Prometheus is either behind Helix or has an in there, and they keep having her do them "favors" that get her in deeper and deeper while intentionally keeping her from the information she's looking for that will lead her to Oliver.

Who knows? That techno babble could actually be just that.

Wait, is the team breaking up? 518 kind of implies that at least Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity are still trying to stop Prometheus, and 519 is Team Arrow vs. Team Felicity, so when would the team break up? Just part of 518?

[LeighAn]

6 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't care if Oliver loves killing, is indifferent to killing, a psycho or what. I watch freaking GoT and Black Sails, my heroes are Pirates (who killed a lot of people).

What bugs me is the repetition,  Oliver doubts he's a hero (again) , the team breaks up (again) blah blah blah. 

You know I'd say I hope this is the culmination of Oliver doubting himself and will lead to him being a fully realised hero to tie up with the end of his flashback 5 years of hell storyline BUT I would not be surprised if they will still have a "Am I a hero?" moment in season 6 cause Flarrow loves the pep talks. 

[dtissagirl]

14 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Who knows? That techno babble could actually be just that.

Wait, is the team breaking up? 518 kind of implies that at least Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity are still trying to stop Prometheus, and 519 is Team Arrow vs. Team Felicity, so when would the team break up? Just part of 518?

I'm thinking most of 518, but yeah, just that ep.

- Oliver shuts everything down at the end of 517

- Diggle has to rally up the noobs to get Oliver back in 518 while I'm guessing Felicity is off getting deeper into Helix [maybe she is pissed Oliver disbands the team, I don't know]. Team gets back together by the end of 518. Minus Felicity, maybe?

- Then 519 is Team Arrow vs. Team Felicity, which I'm wondering if it's not ultimately about getting Felicity back from her Helix downward spiral.

I figure the team-ness issues are over then, but the O/F issues remain, which is why they get trapped in a room in 520 until they solve them.

Edited March 21, 2017 by dtissagirl

[lemotomato]

Quote

OLIVER CALLS ON THE BRATVA FOR HELP — Diggle (David Ramsey) and Felicity (Emily Bett Rickards) are shocked by Oliver’s (Stephen Amell) decision to call on the Bratva to help take down Prometheus (Josh Segurra). Concerned the Bratva may overstep, Diggle has a hard conversation with Oliver about what happens if things go south. Meanwhile, Felicity learns something shocking at Helix. 

From the description of 518, it sounds like initially Felicity isn't on board with the idea of getting the Bratva's help to take down Prometheus, but something must change her mind so that in 519 she'll enlist Helix, even after finding out something (presumably) bad about them. Either way, if she's leaving the team, it's not because they've stopped pursuing Prometheus.

[Guest]

Knowing what we do about 517 now, that 518 description makes it sound like Oliver disbands Team Arrow because he doesn't want them getting hurt by association. I mean, it's no coincidence that Chase mentions Diggle and Felicity as being better off without him. But he's okay with asking the Bratva for help because they're, you know, Bratva. 

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

The entire point of this thread is to NOT wait until we know for sure to talk about it endlessly.

This is correct.   Everyone is allowed to jump to whatever crazy conclusions they want, as long as they aren't being dicks about it. 

 

[leopardprint]

So Oliver is tortured, breaks down possibly suicidal, quits team, mopes(?) and gets back to it over one episode? Dig and Felicity have really mastered their pep talk game. Oliver probably involves the Bratva because he is a "KILLER, DARKNESS, NO PARENTS" and he doesn't want TA possibly getting hurt.

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Knowing what we do about 517 now, that 518 description makes it sound like Oliver disbands Team Arrow because he doesn't want them getting hurt by association. I mean, it's no coincidence that Chase mentions Diggle and Felicity as being better off without him. But he's okay with asking the Bratva for help because they're, you know, Bratva. 

Again?! Bangs head on wall. 

[Guest]

Just now, Morrigan2575 said:

Again?! Bangs head on wall. 

Well, no one ever said they were original or had any new ideas. Haha.

[LeighAn]

Not sure if this has been posted but I like it and I want it:

http://www.tvguide.com/news/arrows-stephen-amell-oliver-felicity/?ftag=TVG_Twitter

[Trisha]

58 minutes ago, Belinea said:

What is Felicity doing during those six days? Adjusting her chair? If Helix knows everything, what is the problem finding him?

Good point. If Felicity had to hack a gov't drone to find Susan, what is Helix going to make her do before she can search for Oliver? And whatever it is, it apparently doesn't even work so what's the point? ('What's the point?' is S5's unofficial tag line.)

I'll wait to see how it plays out (a caveat I didn't think I needed in the spec thread but ok) but one of my big hopes when the news broke about 520 was that they'd use the eps leading up to that to make Oliver more likeable. I've spent too much of this season thinking Felicity deserves better. But if Oliver is going through some existential angst about whether or not he's a serial killer (and based on MG's comments, he might be!), then the direction they're going is the exact opposite. I was really hoping this would be the season where he's the light for others and the one giving the pep talks, not always getting them. Unless there's a REALLY big attitude turnaround in 519...

[Carrie Ann]

12 minutes ago, Trisha said:

Good point. If Felicity had to hack a gov't drone to find Susan, what is Helix going to make her do before she can search for Oliver? And whatever it is, it apparently doesn't even work so what's the point? ('What's the point?' is S5's unofficial tag line.)

If Helix is connected to Prometheus, then no matter what she's doing for them, they could just be acting like they're helping, giving her access to what she needs, while actually blocking her (without her knowledge) from finding him. If not, then...IDGI.

[leopardprint]

Perhaps Felicity needing saving in 519 causes the turnaround?

Edited March 22, 2017 by leopardprint
disappearing quote box

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm not surprised by this spoiler even though it doesn't make a f-ton of sense. After all, these are the writers who kept calling Oliver a serial killer back in the third episode of this season, and no character batted an eye despite the fact it's wrong. Oliver is not a serial killer. He's not even a spree killer. When he kills it's more like eliminating the obstacles in his way. And in the case of the Big Bads, to finally stop them for doing more bad things. So to make him say now that he likes killing? Bullshit. These hacks.

[Hiveminder]

4 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I'm not surprised by this spoiler even though it doesn't make a f-ton of sense. After all, these are the writers who kept calling Oliver a serial killer back in the third episode of this season, and no character batted an eye despite the fact it's wrong. Oliver is not a serial killer. He's not even a spree killer. When he kills it's more like eliminating the obstacles in his way. And in the case of the Big Bads, to finally stop them for doing more bad things. So to make him say now that he likes killing? Bullshit. These hacks.

At worst, Oliver has had trouble viewing people he kills as actual people instead of, as you said, obstacles. Which is something we already knew, right? He basically admitted that he saw people as targets and threats on his and Felicity's first date. I don't know what the clinical term for that mindset is, but I know it's not murderphilia. 

[statsgirl]

13 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I don't know what the clinical term for that mindset is, but I know it's not murderphilia. 

Hypervigilance. 

It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you.

[Hiveminder]

7 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Hypervigilance. 

It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you.

He definitely has that too, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm sure there's a term for being unable to see people as people instead of objects. It might happen along with hyper vigilance a lot though. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by Hiveminder

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

He definitely has that too, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm sure there's a term for being unable to see people as people instead of objects. It might happen along with hyper vigilance a lot though. 

Detachment?

De-personalization?

Edited March 22, 2017 by catrox14

[statsgirl]

There are aspects of being unable to see people as people instead of objects in low functioning narcissistic and borderline personality disorders (e.g. if you're not helping me you're against me or I'm going to ignore you) but I don't think there is a specific term for it.

Edited March 22, 2017 by statsgirl

[calliope1975]

3 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

HAHAHAHA LOLNO, GUGGIE.

Like, seriously, he's saying "our hope is I'm gonna give you a ~shocker~ dialogue line that is obviously just another piece of plotty driven shit on our 109th episode that'll make you look back at 108 previous hours of television in a different way", oh, go fuck a cactus, hack showrunner.

I think, and hope, that's exactly what this is. MG a terrible writer, and worse, thinks he really good at his job. My fear is that MG tends to forget about interesting plot points, and never stop writing for nonsensical, lame plot points. 

3 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

This is how I see it too. Oliver had showed in the past he thinks little of himself so maybe he has this unexpressed fear that he killed all those people because that's who he is, a killer.

 

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry to compare it to SPN SPOILERS FROM S4

I can't help but think of Dean being tortured in Hell for scores of years before he finally couldn't take it anymore and started torturing others to stop his own torture. The narrative eventually had Dean say "liked" it, which really meant he got some relief by pushing his own pain onto someone else. Of course, that lead to a forever existing fuckton of guilt he'll never be free of so that was torture of it's own kind.

When am I going to get my joint Dean Winchester/Oliver Queen therapy session? Daddy issues, very low to zero self-esteem, lot of dead people/monsters in their pasts, presents, and futures. I suppose you could throw Barry in there, too, for a discount, but I have a feeling Dean would drop kick Barry within 5 minutes of meeting him.

[Sunshine]

I don't actually believe Oliver enjoys killing. If he did though, how do you reconcile that with his initial reaction to killing Billy?  He enjoys killing bad guys but not good? 

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I suppose you could throw Barry in there, too, for a discount, but I have a feeling Dean would drop kick Barry within 5 minutes of meeting him.

I would pay ALL the money to see this

[statsgirl]

55 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Detachment?

De-personalization?

Emotional Detachment:

Quote

Emotional detachment can be a positive behavior which allows a person to react calmly to highly emotional circumstances/ individuals. Emotional detachment in this sense is a decision to avoid engaging emotional connections, rather than an inability or difficulty in doing so, typically for personal, social, or other reasons. In this sense it can allow people to maintain boundaries, psychic integrity and avoid undesired impact by or upon others, related to emotional demands. As such it is a deliberate mental attitude which avoids engaging the emotions of others.

This detachment does not necessarily mean avoiding empathy; rather it allows the person space needed to rationally choose whether or not to be overwhelmed or manipulated by such feelings. Examples where this is used in a positive sense might include emotional boundary management, where a person avoids emotional levels of engagement related to people who are in some way emotionally overly demanding, such as difficult co-workers or relatives, or is adopted to aid the person in helping others such as a person who trains himself to ignore the "pleading" food requests of a dieting spouse, or indifference by parents towards a child's begging.

Emotional detachment can also be used to describe what is often considered "emotional numbing", "emotional blunting", i.e., dissociation, depersonalization or in its chronic form depersonalization disorder. This type of emotional numbing or blunting is a disconnection from emotion, it is frequently used as a coping/ survival skill during traumatic childhood events such as abuse or severe neglect. Over time and with much use, this can become second nature when dealing with day to day stressors.

Emotional detachment often arises from psychological trauma and is a component in many anxiety and stress disorders. The person, while physically present, moves elsewhere in the mind, and in a sense is "not entirely present", making them sometimes appear preoccupied.

I think this is closest but it doesn't quite cover it all.  Oliver still loved his mother and sister, and Laurel and Tommy, so he wasn't disconnected from his emotions.  Maybe a combination of detachment/dissociation and hyper vigilance.  I don't think it's depersonaliztion:

Quote

Individuals who experience depersonalization feel divorced from their own personal self by sensing their body sensations, feelings, emotions, behaviors etc. as not belonging to the same person or identity. Often a person who has experienced depersonalization claims that things seem unreal or hazy. Also, a recognition of a self breaks down (hence the name). Depersonalization can result in very high anxiety levels, which further increase these perceptions.[6]

[leopardprint]

5 hours ago, tv echo said:

It's not so much Oliver confessing a secret, but confessing a secret fear. Probably by the end of this season, he'll realize the difference.

I think and hope it's going to be along these lines. Oliver isn't afraid of pain or dying himself but he is afraid that he corrupts those around him. So Prometheus convinces Oliver he is an unrepentant monster and Oliver ditches the team to save them from himself as others have suggested. He reverts to Bratva monster in 518 because Prometheus is still a threat that needs to be dealt with and he will go dark if needed. In 518/519 Oliver realizes that Felicity is being corrupted even though he quit and overcomes his darkness to go save her. I'm starting to think Oliver may not be on the team at the start of 519 and he's brought in at the end to save Felicity.

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

When am I going to get my joint Dean Winchester/Oliver Queen therapy session? Daddy issues, very low to zero self-esteem, lot of dead people/monsters in their pasts, presents, and futures.

This is why, for me, this storyline is pretty ridiculous even beyond plot retreads. What are the chances that they will give the hero's trauma after being tortured for 6 days its due? Ra's also tortured/brainwashed him and I don't think it was mentioned again. I hope 5X23 is just Oliver on vacation in Bali. 

[Tazmania]

4 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

BUT WHAT WAS HE COOKING DUN DUN DUN

Hannibal/Arrow crossover? 

[calliope1975]

5 minutes ago, Tazmania said:

Hannibal/Arrow crossover? 

Abigail Hobbs is already on the show!!!! I'm sure her Murder Dads are nearby.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

This is why, for me, this storyline is pretty ridiculous even beyond plot retreads. What are the chances that they will give the hero's trauma after being tortured for 6 days its due? Ra's also tortured/brainwashed him and I don't think it was mentioned again. I hope 5X23 is just Oliver on vacation in Bali. 

Maybe the new torture triggers something that happened to Oliver on the island he has repressed and it retraumatizes him in 6 days.

[BkWurm1]

This is how I see it.  We saw at the start of his time on the island how much even killing a bird sickened him.  We saw him really upset the first time he had to kill a guard, even though he killed in order to save his life.  Oliver is not a natural born killer.  He absolutely did not like killing then.  So right there, the Dexter comparisons should go away.  

Then Oliver spends basically the next five years of his life trying to stay alive, constantly being attacked and controlled and again and again put in a kill or be killed situation.  He thought he killed Slade and even though he thought at the time it was the right decision, we clearly saw years later it still haunted him. He did not leave the island the first time as someone that LIKED killing.  

In Hong Kong though Waller forced him to LEARN how to become an effective interrogator and forced him to learn how to become am assassin.  He was taught the skills and came to accept them as a necessary thing at times but still it wasn't until he tortured the General that we saw him find any satisfaction in using them.  So yes, there we did have him find some sort of gratification in revenge and torture and killing.  The General deserved death but if some part of Oliver did not find a feeling of rightness in that act, he wouldn't have prolonged it like that.  So we do have one example of Oliver where you could say he liked killing.    

But that he had done it and been gratified in doing it, HORRIFIED him.   To the point where he knew he shouldn't be around people he loved.

He goes back to the states and sets up trying to help others, to find a way to use the skills he'd acquired in a positive way and Waller once again swoops him up and sticks him back on the island.  I too thought we'd see that he'd become callous to killing but he hadn't.  He put his whole mission at risk to save Poppy.  He only kills to save lives.  This is not a man that enjoys killing.  But at the end of the mission he's still filled with this rage and anger and trauma.  He can't be with his family because he hasn't learned yet to compartmentalize that side of him and so he goes to Russia to save Poppy's village, looking for another battle even though all he promised was to tell her mother about her, not fight off an evil Warlord.  

But to fight Kovar, he needs the Bratva's help and this is a group that encourages killing.  Gives out praise.  Makes you family over it.  (Talk about messing with your head)  Still, while now Oliver does it when he must, we saw his face after he snapped that guy's neck in the jail.  He did it because he felt he had to, but he suffered for doing it.   He not only doesn't like killing, he's not even numb to it like you might expect after all he's gone through.  

Really, it's not until Talia shows up and says "Hey, here's a hood.  When you wear it, it's not you; so it's OK, you can let the monster out" that we see Oliver go all out with the killing.

Oliver really bought into giving the monster an outlet.  In a way, he could then pretend that he wasn't the monster.  Anatoly tries to point out that putting on a hood or a mask or a persona doesn't really change anything, but Oliver believes in the idea.  It simplifies everything and frees him.   He no longer had to fight against his guilt and morality. I bet he found putting on the Hood liberating.

 It's probably a rush to take control of his world like that.  He is no longer the hunted, but the hunter.  All his abilities and instincts that have been honed for the past five years are given free reign and being able to do what he is good at, has to feel great.  Now he has a way to let the monster out when needed and then a way to tuck it away.  Plus he gets to seek retribution again and again against those that deserve it.  And that's the mind set he went home to Starling City with.  It wasn't just about honoring his father.  It was about being able to channel the monster that had been created inside of him.   

I think in 517 in the flashbacks we are going to see him give into the rush of power and freedom he feels as the Hood.  I wouldn't be surprised if we see him fueleds by a kind of blood lust/beserker vibe.  But even after he's let that monster drip in blood, he'll be thinking he can still put the monster away, at least until it's time to bring him out to help tackle his father's list.  But in the meantime, Oliver Queen, not the Hood, can go home to his mother and sister.  He can separate who he is. 

But who Oliver was then and who he is now is very different.  He's still hugely traumatized but even more so in season one.  Riddled with PTSD to an extent I don't think even he could understand.  He was still at war.  Everyone was either a victim or a target and yeah, he LIKED taking down targets.  

In season one he was fooling himself.  He was only pretending to be two people and he was more Hood than Oliver.  During that time when the Hood was calling more shots than the man, killing was quick. Efficient.  Effective. And in his mind, deserved.  He gave them a chance, which is more than most of his captors gave him during his time away.  But being around his loved ones and being around people like Diggle and Felicity, that's when Oliver started to come out of his fog of war and by the end of the season, he accepted that what the hood did was what he did.  Tommy called him out on it.  He was a killer and it had become too easy to kill.  The monster had been let loose.  And we saw IMO that he was deeply ashamed of taking the easy way.  That he had to be better.

So IMO, yes, you could say that he liked killing from a certain viewpoint and that it was only when he was able to let out the killer that he decided he had a way of going home, but for all his backsliding, he's always evolving on his stance on killing and if he on some level liked killing in season one, he abhorred it in season two.  And yet still, does anyone doubt when he put three arrows into The Count that he didn't feel a thrilling satisfaction?  

I think the show will at least initially try to frame it as black and white.  That to find anything good in killing is to be evil.  But I don't think it's going to really be anything different than what we already saw.  He was good with killing and he has to fight the habit cause it comes with it's own kind of satisfaction (given his line of work) and yes, he's probably only in his line of work because he can let the monster out sometimes, but Oliver has been trying to figure out how to balance that part of himself for a while now.  Prometheous is the one that is trying to twist his trauma into something that is still a canker to his legacy.     

He did come to Starling City to honor his father but yeah, he probably only felt he could because of the monster he'd let out that did find something to like about killing.  I think Prometheous is determined to cut out all the nuance and shadings behind that.  The reasons why Oliver was like that.  And he also wants to convince Oliver he hasn't changed, or more so, that he CAN'T change.  But we've already seen that he can even as we've also seen that like Felicity and hacktivism, some things from our past can be a dangerous lure.  Even if you later decided to reject that course of action, doesn't mean that you didn't find pleasure in following that path at one point or that you can drop your guard against falling back on your old ways in the future.  

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, bijoux said:

I watched SA's interview with etalk.ca and he mentions there being no music when episode 518 cuts to opening credits, comparing it to 24 not using the ticking clock when really bad stuff happened. And he's predicting pain. They're not going to actually have Oliver seriously contemplating suicide, are they? That's the first thing that popped to my head after how 517 is supposed to end.

I would not be surprised if they are since SA talked about that episode kind of messing with his head, didn't he?

Edited March 22, 2017 by BkWurm1

[thegirlsleuth]

Independent of the spoiler speculation, that was a fantastic, nuanced analysis of the progression (or in some cases regression) of Oliver's character, @BkWurm1.  I'd love to see them explore Oliver's character in the way you described.

[wonderwall]

That was an excellent post, @BkWurm1! 

Honestly, imo anyone who actually buys into it is pretty much forgetting the history of the show. And if the show genuinely feels like oliver does like killing people I think it'd be a retcon. 

Anyways, today was kind of a bummer seeing posts on different sites about how Oliver would likely kill his own children or posts that equate Oliver's torture to manpain. 

Anyways, if Oliver actually enjoyed killing, he wouldn't hang up the hood by the end of the episode and he certainly wouldn't sound as upset as he seems to sound in yonkous quotes. So yeah, I don't believe it at all. 

[EmilyBettFan]

15 hours ago, Trisha said:

Oh, good to know. The first tweet I saw of hers was last week's dialogue one between O/F, and I didn't think Yonkou had spoiled that one...

Did yonkou spoil that one? I don't think they did.

[lemotomato]

14 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Anyways, today was kind of a bummer seeing posts on different sites about how Oliver would likely kill his own children or posts that equate Oliver's torture to manpain. 

I didn't see the Oliver will kill his children post, but I did see someone characterize 520 as a horror movie with Felicity trapped in the bunker with a serial killer.

Edited March 22, 2017 by lemotomato

[Midnight Lullaby]

11 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't care if Oliver loves killing, is indifferent to killing, a psycho or what. I watch freaking GoT and Black Sails, my heroes are Pirates (who killed a lot of people).

What bugs me is the repetition,  Oliver doubts he's a hero (again) , the team breaks up (again) blah blah blah. 

I like characters that like to kill on GoT too but on Arrow it would bug me because they spent years making a huge deal about how killing is bad and a lot of Oliver's journey was about finding another way because he didn't want to be a killer. If now they say oh Oliver likes to kill deep down a lot of stuff they wrote would lose its meaning. They wrote the villains as people that like to kill and the heroes as people that hate it and feel horrible about it..it's a bit too late to add nuance to this aspect of the story imo.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[LeighAn]

Excellent post @BkWurm1!!! 

2 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I didn't see the Oliver will kill his children post, but I did see someone characterize 520 as a horror movie with Felicity trapped in the bunker with a serial killer.

I saw claims that if you ship Felicity with someone like Oliver now that he loves killing then you must internally hate yourself.

Proud self loather I guess then *shrug* 

Its sad that the fandom went from pleasant and excited to attacking one another in the span of one spoiler. Cest la vie.

I think this episode sounds like it's going to be intense and hopefully will land in an interesting way and create some interesting conflict going forward. It could also be  a total dumpster fire as well but I guess it's a 50/50 shot like any Arrow episode. 

Im just excited for the Olicity storyline coming up because I know that I enjoy them and they are usually written well 90% of the time and even when written crap Stephen and Emily's acting makes up the deficit.

[Mellowyellow]

20 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Excellent post @BkWurm1!!! 

I saw claims that if you ship Felicity with someone like Oliver now that he loves killing then you must internally hate yourself.

Proud self loather I guess then *shrug* 

Its sad that the fandom went from pleasant and excited to attacking one another in the span of one spoiler. Cest la vie.

I think this episode sounds like it's going to be intense and hopefully will land in an interesting way and create some interesting conflict going forward. It could also be  a total dumpster fire as well but I guess it's a 50/50 shot like any Arrow episode. 

Im just excited for the Olicity storyline coming up because I know that I enjoy them and they are usually written well 90% of the time and even when written crap Stephen and Emily's acting makes up the deficit.

 

I really don't understand these kinds of arguments. These characters are all from a soapy comics show. I wouldn't marry any of them in real life! Not even my beloved Ray! And you know how I feel about Ray (sorry Leighan I can't resist inserting these comments in just for you =p). But pretty messed up people hooking up make me squeeeee! 

That said I think people are harsh about Barry too. None of these people make good husband material in the real world! 

I'm bummed that it looks like there will be none to hardly any Felicity this week though. I do love seeing her every week! She's my darling! And yes I still want her to marry Oliver and have beautiful Olicity babies regardless of whatever man pain it is he think's he's going through this season! 

[dtissagirl]

I don't think torturing a character is manpain [duh]. But I do think this episode is part of a pattern that all sorts of media are going through right now: the idea that complete deconstruction/breakdown of male characters [and it almost always happen to white males] to the point of abject misery is some sort of higher, deeper, more complex story. The manpain doesn't belong to the character, it's embedded in the fabric of the narrative. It's been drilled into the heads of Hollywood writers that [white] man suffering great amounts of pain is the current epitome of storytelling. Man feeling pain is put above anyone else feeling pain by the entire industry [and that's the definition of manpain: assuming a man's pain is the most important one], and thus large amounts of stories must address that in the current zeitgeist. And this is Arrow going into the pattern of narrative manpain that I've been seeing everywhere lately.

[LeighAn]

@Mellowyellow it's okay I know that I am the Oliver to your Adrian Chase (and you insist on mentally torturing me into admitting my love for Raylicity..... Ultimate evil) :p  #bestfriendsforlife

At the end of the day the only thing I need from the characters is for them to entertain me. Right now Chase entertains me, seeing his mental games with Oliver entertains me, Olicity always entertains me and in general I find the show watchable even if I'm not as entertained as last season. I get that there are people who aren't entertained anymore. End of the day I can rationalise between entertainment and what's acceptable in reality. Just like I can know that living off chocolate and only chocolate will probably kill me even though I love chocolate ergo I eat those nasty fruits and vegetables Boo!

[LeighAn]

26 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I don't think torturing a character is manpain [duh]. But I do think this episode is part of a pattern that all sorts of media are going through right now: the idea that complete deconstruction/breakdown of male characters [and it almost always happen to white males] to the point of abject misery is some sort of higher, deeper, more complex story. The manpain doesn't belong to the character, it's embedded in the fabric of the narrative. It's been drilled into the heads of Hollywood writers that [white] man suffering great amounts of pain is the current epitome of storytelling. Man feeling pain is put above anyone else feeling pain by the entire industry [and that's the definition of manpain: assuming a man's pain is the most important one], and thus large amounts of stories must address that in the current zeitgeist. And this is Arrow going into the pattern of narrative manpain that I've been seeing everywhere lately.

I agree with this. But at the same time I think the writers wanted a darker Villan this season who was different from what they've explored before. Someone who fights Oliver on a more psychological level. So the man pain exploration is just an unfortunate side effect of the fact that the villains entire purpose this season is to cause Oliver man pain *shrug*

ETA: to extrapolate I think the writers are employing man pain for the reasons you said to the show this season but I think it's mainly just to make the Villan and therefore the show seem more edgy/dark. I'm not thrilled but I understand it. I think they've balanced out man pain Oliver with hopefull (almost to dumbness) optimistic Oliver this season though.

I guess I understand people's aversion  but I've become sort of numb to it. It's pretty repetitive at this point across all Flarrow shows. 

I just really want Olicity back together because when he's with her he is generally less man pain-y around her. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by LeighAn

[dtissagirl]

5 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

So the man pain exploration is just an unfortunate side effect of the fact that the villains entire purpose this season is to cause Oliver man pain *shrug* 

I tend to think it's the other way around, that they created a villain specifically to explore the zeitgeist of manpain. Guggie wanted an in to the misery porn game he's seeing everywhere else, but he's aware that his show is a soapy drama at 8pm on the CW, so he can't do it all season long, but by the lords of trope cannibalization, he'll devote an entire episode to it.

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, dtissagirl said:

I tend to think it's the other way around, that they created a villain specifically to explore the zeitgeist of manpain. Guggie wanted an in to the misery porn game he's seeing everywhere else, but he's aware that his show is a soapy drama at 8pm on the CW, so he can't do it all season long, but by the lords of trope cannibalization, he'll devote an entire episode to it.

I edited my post but I agree, whether it's a chicken before the egg analogy, I understand their motivations that they are using man pain to be more edgy/dark. And I'm sort of indifferent. Not thrilled but not as turned off as others. It just is. 

I remember Wendy saying at the start of the season with the whole back to basics selling, how they needed to adapt the show to match a genre that now includes shows like Jessica Jones. If I had to speculate on the writers morivations I wonder if the whole Marvel shows making Aroiw/Flarrow look like a watered down kids show in comparison, and all the critique comparing the two universes, got the writers and their egoes a little bruised and this plot line is a result.