Spoiler Discussion Thread

[abhi]

That scene has most probably to do with Malcom rather than Sara, I think.

 

I'm trying to imagine what, besides Sara's death, would make Laurel want to walk Sara's path and I can't think of anything, really.

Didn't Guggenheim say that the rooftop conversation between the two sisters in 3x01 will set Laurel on her path. Most probably It will be Sara telling laurel not to bring her nose in fights when she can't fight or stg.

 

Laurel's journey is so late in comparison to other characters that I can't take her as someone equal to Oliver in the future. Laurel should rather become Thea's sidekick now that Thea has 6 to 7 months of vigorous League training. It;s just too late for her.

Edited August 20, 2014 by abhi

[Guest]

Didn't Guggenheim say that the rooftop conversation between the two sisters in 3x01 will set Laurel on her path. Most probably It will be Sara telling laurel not to bring her nose in fights when she can't fight or stg.

 

Laurel's journey is so late in comparison to other characters that I can't take her as someone equal to Oliver in the future. Laurel should rather become Thea's sidekick now that Thea has 6 to 7 months of vigorous League training. It;s just too late for her.

That scene has most probably to do with Malcom rather than Sara, I think.

Didn't Guggenheim say that the rooftop conversation between the two sisters in 3x01 will set Laurel on her path. Most probably It will be Sara telling laurel not to bring her nose in fights when she can't fight or stg.

 

Laurel's journey is so late in comparison to other characters that I can't take her as someone equal to Oliver in the future. Laurel should rather become Thea's sidekick now that Thea has 6 to 7 months of vigorous League training. It;s just too late for her.

 

I can see that happening because Laurel always does the opposite of what people tell her. Oliver tells her to stay away from the Glades, Laurel goes to the Glades. Oliver tells her to stay safe (and it started with the three of us, it's time we get back to that) and Laurel follows him anyway and gets trapped in the process. She never does what she's told. So I can imagine if Sara tells her not to get involved in things because she can't fight, Laurel will find a way to prove otherwise because that's just what she does.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Guest

[icandigit]

 

You know what? I want Nyssa to randomly shoot people with tranq darts because it is badass. I also want her to gift Felicity with a tanrq gun just because she liked her and she thought it was an appropriate gift.

This is not good for my brain. Now I'm picturing Nysaa and Felicity paired off to work on a case. I need to stop the show that's formulating in my head immediately.

 

I've still been contemplating the whole thing with Felicity wondering if she is more than a crush object. Does that have to do with being in trapped in some old school movie love triangle with Ray and Oliver? Or does Oliver start treating her differently. I guess I understand the question about who is she outside of Oliver and the arrow cave. But, the crush question is a little different.  I just wonder why that would be a question in regards to her identity. It's just a weird question. Like something being imposed on her from the outside. Do other members of the team start seeing her or treating her differently because Oliver likes her?

Edited August 20, 2014 by icandigit

[Morrigan2575]

That scene has most probably to do with Malcom rather than Sara, I think.

Didn't Guggenheim say that the rooftop conversation between the two sisters in 3x01 will set Laurel on her path. Most probably It will be Sara telling laurel not to bring her nose in fights when she can't fight or stg.

 

Laurel's journey is so late in comparison to other characters that I can't take her as someone equal to Oliver in the future. Laurel should rather become Thea's sidekick now that Thea has 6 to 7 months of vigorous League training. It;s just too late for her.

What's really crazy is they're trying to set a 30 year old woman on this path.  Sara started when she was 19-20 (?)  Oliver started when he was 22-23, Roy started when he was 21-22 and Thea is 19.  

 

What's even odder is that I assumed they planned for Sara to become BC in S2 because they either wanted to have their BC now or the studio/network forced them to bring BC in sooner rather than later.  However, if AK's latest comments are to be believed, they intended for Sara to show up as BC from the pilot.  So WTF?  Did they really think the audience would be repulsed by Sara/Canary?

 

I agree with ban1o they really seemed to have placed themselves in a very awkward position, there's no winner here. 

 

I've still been contemplating the whole thing with Felicity wondering if she is more than a crush object. Does that have to do with being in trapped in some old school movie love triangle with Ray and Oliver? Or does Oliver start treating her differently. I guess I understand the question about who is she outside of Oliver and the arrow cave. But, the crush question is a little different.  I just wonder why that would be a question in regards to her identity. It's just a weird question. Like something being imposed on her from the outside. Do other members of the team start seeing her or treating her differently because Oliver likes her?

 

I suspect that it's bad wording. Whats really funny is that most people read that comment as Felicity having a crush on Oliver but if the wording is to be believe, Felicity is trying to figure out if there's more to her than being the person Oliver has a crush on.  If this is something legit and not bad wording then perhaps it's a continuation of the S2 stuff?  Last season everyone was pointing out that Felicity had feelings for Oliver, now maybe (because Oliver is treating her different) people will point out to Felicity that Oliver has feelings for her?  Maybe Ray, Barry, etc start asking about her relationship with Oliver in terms of Oliver's feelings?  

Edited August 20, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[ban1o]

What's even odder is that I assumed they planned for Sara to become BC in S2 because they either wanted to have their BC now or the studio/network forced them to bring BC in sooner rather than later. However, if AK's latest comments are to be believed, they intended for Sara to show up as BC from the pilot. So WTF? Did they really think the audience would be repulsed by Sara/Canary?

I really, really doubt they intended to have Sara as black canary from the pilot. I think they intended for Sara to be alive from the pilot but I don't think they always intended for her to be black canary.

Edited August 20, 2014 by ban1o

[Password]

I suspect that it's bad wording. Whats really funny is that most people read that comment as Felicity having a crush on Oliver but if the wording is to be believe, Felicity is trying to figure out if there's more to her than being the person Oliver has a crush on.  If this is something legit and not bad wording then perhaps it's a continuation of the S2 stuff?  Last season everyone was pointing out that Felicity had feelings for Oliver, now maybe (because Oliver is treating her different) people will point out to Felicity that Oliver has feelings for her?  Maybe Ray, Barry, etc start asking about her relationship with Oliver in terms of Oliver's feelings?  

 

That's certainly how I've come to understand that quote. Furthermore, someone on tumblr made an interesting request that this time around, like Moira pointed out to Felicity, it be mama Smoak that tells Oliver she sees how he looks at Felicity. I suspect Oliver will treat her differently now because it's not only that he has feelings for her, it's that he's actually aware he does now. And he'll be around her on most days. I don't think he'd be able to maintain cold and distant too well this time around.

 

 

I really, really doubt they intended to have Sara as black canary from the pilot. I think they intended for Sara to be alive from the pilot but I don't think they always intended for her to be black canary.

 

I also don't think she was ever intended to be BC. Ever since the episodes in season 1 where they thought she's alive, I knew she's alive. I don't know who decided making her BC was a good idea though.

[Morrigan2575]

I really, really doubt they intended to have Sara as black canary from the pilot. I think they intended for Sara to be alive from the pilot but I don't think they always intended for her to be black canary.

Believable or not that's the story they're selling.  The question is if it's a lie, what's the purpose?

 

When we made the pilot, there were two ideas that Marc [Guggenheim], Greg [berlanti] and I had from the very beginning. One was that Sarah was still alive and that she would be the Canary when we saw her next. And the other one was that at the end of Season 2, Oliver would wake up not on the island. It's amazing to now be here in Season 3 and have gotten to those changes.

 

Edited August 20, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[ban1o]

Believable or not that's the story they're selling. The question is if it's a lie, what's the purpose?

Lol, interesting. I guess if that's true (which I still doubt, EPs sometimes lie about this stuff to make them look like they know what they are doing) then they just didn't foresee that people would actually like her over Laurel. I question the EPs logic in planning a fully fledged black canary and still thinking that people will care about Laurel journey to black canary.

Edited August 20, 2014 by ban1o

[Orion]

With Felicity as Oliver's crush object, I'm leaning towards him pushing her away as his partner because of his feelings. If she's not part of Team Arrow or only part of Team Arrow in the lair and safe, then she's just a girl Oliver has feelings for.  Enter Ray who wants her to work with him and be his partner while having feelings for her. I just assume that everything will lead back to contrasting what Ray is offering with what Oliver is able to give her. Ray has to move the Felicity is danger by her own choice arc because Oliver needs to let her choose for herself what she is willing to risk. I actually see it very similar for Diggle, Oliver wants to sideline him so he goes toward Argus and the Suicide Squad, Felicity get's sidelined and she goes to Ray.  Oliver, in the end, learns that they are his partners and not his sidekicks and he can't be the Arrow without them.  

 

I don't buy Sara as the BC from the beginning. But I do wonder if Sara was originally suppose to come back to take some of the weight off of Laurel/Oliver relationship. I cheated on you with your sister is bad enough but I cheated on you with your sister and she died while with me is a lot worse. Sara coming back would have taken some weight off of that romance arc and that's what she was originally suppose to do. Then Olicity became really popular and the writers realized that they wouldn't have time to get Laurel to BC before they had to deliver on the Oliver/Felicity arc so they just moved Sara into the BC role and then they could have their romantic pairing of the GA/BC. 

 

I use to think Sara was marked for death but I'm leaning more toward a conversation happening where she tells Laurel she has moved beyond being the Canary and has taken on a new name (that she had to take a new name when she returned to the LOA in order for them to let her come back for example). That the canary represented the old Sara but Laurel should use the name and her old jacket.  The writers have handled this whole arc so poorly but I really don't see them being dumb enough to try to throw more bodies at Laurel's feet as a way to build her up; not when those people are as popular as Quentin and Sara. Also, SA seems to absolutely love doing fight scenes with CL. I don't think she will be a regular but a few times a season she will show up and help out.  

[dtissagirl]

I went back and watched a couple of Andrew Kreisberg's video interviews from SDCC, and I found the one he mentioned the ideas from the pilot -- Sara being alive, and Oliver waking up not on the island by the end of S2. I actually didn't remember the part about "Sara being the Canary when we saw her next", but here it is -- he does say it:

 

 

I think I can buy it that they thought up that first image [in 201] of Sara as the Canary the moment they decided she would be alive -- you know, just the imagery, in the same way Yao Fei and Shado wore the hood first -- but I totally doubt it they thought about how much of Black Canary's background and backstory they would give her until they actively cast CL in S2.

Edited August 20, 2014 by dancingnancy

[poetgirl925]

True, Guggenheim did say something between the sisters in 3x01 sets Laurel down her path, so Laurel must start following whatever idea she gets in her head before Sara dies. I highly doubt Sara dies in that episode. And if Laurel starts with her vigilante ideas while Sara is still alive, it doesn't make sense to kill Sara later, does it? I have a feeling nothing about this is going to feel organic or make sense - I also feel like we need to be prepared for Sidekick Black Canary. I don't see how she'll be better than Oliver or Sara. In a world where they give us fully formed heroes right off the bat (even Roy was shown as being more skilled) she's really going to stick out.

Nyssa, Quentin and Laurel in a scene but no Sara? That's weird. Maybe Sara's off on her own again for some reason. Somehow I have trouble picturing Nyssa talk to Laurel, probably because she's drugged her twice but we've never seen Nyssa address her directly. I know one thing - I'm going to be VERY UPSET if both Nyssa and Sara die this season.

[TanyaKay]

This is not good for my brain. Now I'm picturing Nysaa and Felicity paired off to work on a case. I need to stop the show that's formulating in my head immediately.

 

 

You have no idea the kind of scenarios I have conjured up in my head where Nyssa and Felicity team up. It would be glorious if they film 20 per cent of that on the show and we get to see it. I think I am gonna write a fan fiction where Nyssa tranqs people because Felicity has convinced Nyssa of her no kill rule and Felicity is a trigger happy taser girl who likes to tase baddies because she can. She may or may not tase Roy and Oliver during one of her taser highs.

[calliope1975]

I use to think Sara was marked for death but I'm leaning more toward a conversation happening where she tells Laurel she has moved beyond being the Canary and has taken on a new name (that she had to take a new name when she returned to the LOA in order for them to let her come back for example). That the canary represented the old Sara but Laurel should use the name and her old jacket.  The writers have handled this whole arc so poorly but I really don't see them being dumb enough to try to throw more bodies at Laurel's feet as a way to build her up; not when those people are as popular as Quentin and Sara. 

 

I find this interesting because I'm trying to figure out in what world Sara would ever encourage her sister to become a vigilante. TPTB just spent an entire season having Sara lament how this life has basically killed her soul except for that bizarro out of character end scene of Sara skipping off with the LOA. I'm very interested to see how they spin this. It's not believable for most that 30 year old Laurel, out of nowhere, now wants to start physically running the streets fighting crime. But I do think that's where we're headed. (Note: I do understand that it was being an assassin that sucked for Sara, and that she was on her own journey last year of using those skills she learned to become a hero.)

 

I think I'm almost excited about what a mess will be made of this story line because I can't figure out how this will remotely make sense.

[Starfish35]

The reason I find it hard to believe they've always planned for Sara to be the Canary is that they said that they had considered making her Ravager at one point. It was during that interview where they were talking about Isabel and why she disappeared in the middle of the season. I mean, that does lead to thinking that they'd always planned for her to be alive, but they're contradicting themselves by saying now that they'd always planned for her to be Canary from the beginning.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Starfish35

[ban1o]

The reason I find it hard to believe they've always planned for Sara to be the Canary is that they said that they had considered making her Ravager at one point. It was during that interview where they were talking about Isabel and why she disappeared in the middle of the season. I mean, that does lead to thinking that they'd always planned for her to be alive, but they're contradicting themselves by saying now that they'd always planned for her to be Canary from the beginning.

Lol yeah, like I said, IMO EPs lie all the time to make it look like they know what they are doing. They also had a lot of foreshadowing in s1 for laurel to be black canary and then completely muddled that by introducing Sara.

Edited August 20, 2014 by ban1o

[blixie]

 

And if Laurel starts with her vigilante ideas while Sara is still alive, it doesn't make sense to kill Sara later, does it? I have a feeling nothing about this is going to feel organic or make sense

Eh, I think it's organic, from the moment they decided Oliver's "betrayal" of Laurel would involve sleeping with her sister, this sort of rivalry bone to pick between them was always going to color their relationship. Then the writers ratched that up by implying Sara liked Oliver FIRST, and her bitchy older sister snaked him. Jealousy and envy are aspects of even the best of sibling relationships so that's fine I can buy that as at least a cursory motivation, coupled with her experience as Damsel in Distress walking, and being the outsider to a group of very active heroic types. Dinah is the only one in her life who isn't physically involved in fighting crime.

 

For me it's just a question of them giving the story and Laurel the believable time to become BC, and I can't see that being any time soon, she'll have to sidekick with Sara for at least one or two seasons, or go off between seasons and get supertrained, got bit by a radioactive spider, but we'll need to see it happen to believe she's as strong/skilled or more strong/skilled than Sara/Oliver. But I honestly think they are still hedging their bets on Laurel v. Sara, if they can't sell it I think they will finally cut bait on Laurel as BC, they will give her a great villain exit story or just have her leave town. But if they can sell it, Sara is a dead woman be it this year or as the finis to the series.

 

 

With Felicity as Oliver's crush object, I'm leaning towards him pushing her away as his partner because of his feelings. If she's not part of Team Arrow or only part of Team Arrow in the lair and safe, then she's just a girl Oliver has feelings for.

 

Agreed, when he reveals his feelings and possibly goes through another, I can't handle these FEELINGS thing about her, it makes sense she'd start to wonder if her only value to Oliver is/has been in relationship to his personal feelings about her, not about the actual practical value she adds to Team Arrow.

[NumberCruncher]

Believable or not that's the story they're selling.  The question is if it's a lie, what's the purpose?

 

If you think about it, it does make sense from a storytelling perspective.  They needed something to tie the island flashbacks to the present day.  If they went and made Laurel BC from the very beginning they would have lost not only the Oliver/Sara/Slade/Shado contention on Lian Yu (which built the backbone of eventual S2 finale) but also the Lance family drama upon Sara's reappearance in Starling.  Also, without Sara showing the way and her impending death (yes, it will happen) there wouldn't be any compelling reason as to why Laurel becomes BC since she was already punishing baddies as a lawyer at CNRI and later as a DA.

[Morrigan2575]

Lol yeah, like I said, IMO EPs lie all the time to make it look like they know what they are doing. They also had a lot of foreshadowing in s1 for laurel to be black canary and then completely muddled that by introducing Sara.

There was also foreshadowing in s1 that Sara could be BC.

[abhi]

There was that one thing where Sara had a pet canary and Laurel hated that Canary.

 

On a happier note and something not related to Arrow, Robbie Amell and Italia Ricci are engaged.

Edited August 20, 2014 by abhi

[Morrigan2575]

There was that one thing where Sara had a pet canary and Laurel hated that Canary.

On a happier note and something not related to Arrow, Robbie Amell and Italia Ricci are engaged.

Correct and you could probably add in the fact that McKenna mistook kid Sara's photo for kid Laurel.

For Laurel the only 2 that I can think of are CNRI (which they blew up and is no longer a part of Laurel's life or the show) and the fact that she wore fishnets for Halloween one year.

[Orion]

If you think about it, it does make sense from a storytelling perspective.  They needed something to tie the island flashbacks to the present day.  If they went and made Laurel BC from the very beginning they would have lost not only the Oliver/Sara/Slade/Shado contention on Lian Yu (which built the backbone of eventual S2 finale) but also the Lance family drama upon Sara's reappearance in Starling.  Also, without Sara showing the way and her impending death (yes, it will happen) there wouldn't be any compelling reason as to why Laurel becomes BC since she was already punishing baddies as a lawyer at CNRI and later as a DA.

 

I don't think anyone is in favor of Laurel having been BC at the  beginning of the show but there is a huge step between my dad made me take self defense classes and being a vigilante. It would have been very easy to insert that Laurel took boxing from a young age or took up advanced karate when Oliver and Sara died as a way to release some of her anger over what they did. Thea had ground work laid for her with, "I guess I have wicked aim," and the archery trophies. In two seconds the show did more to set up Thea than they have managed to do for Laurel in 46 episodes.

 

Even if Sara dies it is going to come across as Laurel trying to be Sara and that's what I have a problem with. Jealousy and I want what she's having are not good motivators for a hero. Laurel accused Sara of stealing her whole life, so Laurel returns the favor? The writers boxed themselves into this corner. The sisters will always be compared to each other and while I'm not a huge fan of Sara, I will always see Laurel as less than her by a mile. The show has a serious problem when most people point to Nyssa tranqing Laurel as a comedic moments. The only thing she has of the BC's mythos is the name (Sara has skills, Sin, costume, name, canary history) and I'm left wondering why I care what the BC's name is.

 

As far as, CNRI and the DA's office we haven't seen her be successful in prosecuting bad guys. Every time Laurel has a case she either needs the Arrow's help or she fails and the person gets off (Moira).

 

For me it's just to late to fix any of this but YMMV.

[statsgirl]

 

I don't think Nyssa has time or interest to train Laurel.Episode 3x04 is Malcom's episode and therefore the League is involved and with Laurel being DA and Quentin being the top cop, this might be plausible reason for their scenes together.

I'm hoping it's also because Sara is in Europe still hunting her mysterious international assassin.

 

I can't think of any circumstances where Nyssa would even want to train Laurel since she's not part of the LoA and Nyssa hasn't had any time for her yet. Besides, I want to see Nyssa training Laurel even less than I want to see Oliver training her.

 

 

This is not good for my brain. Now I'm picturing Nysaa and Felicity paired off to work on a case. I need to stop the show that's formulating in my head immediately.

It would be awesome to see Nyssa and Felicity working a case from the outside, and Sara undercover working it from inside.  (But we're never going to get it because that, people is the difference between how they treat the male audience  in this genre and how they treat the female.  No one would bat an eye to see Oliver, Diggle and Roy working a case in an episode where there is no Felicity.)

 

I suspect that it's bad wording. Whats really funny is that most people read that comment as Felicity having a crush on Oliver but if the wording is to be believe, Felicity is trying to figure out if there's more to her than being the person Oliver has a crush on.  

It doesn't make sense because no matter how insecure Felicity was about her social skills, the one things she's always been sure of is that she's a technical goddess.  She knows that there is more to her than being a crush object, of Oliver or Ray or anyone else.

 

With Felicity as Oliver's crush object, I'm leaning towards him pushing her away as his partner because of his feelings. If she's not part of Team Arrow or only part of Team Arrow in the lair and safe, then she's just a girl Oliver has feelings for.  Enter Ray who wants her to work with him and be his partner while having feelings for her. I just assume that everything will lead back to contrasting what Ray is offering with what Oliver is able to give her. Ray has to move the Felicity is danger by her own choice arc because Oliver needs to let her choose for herself what she is willing to risk. I actually see it very similar for Diggle, Oliver wants to sideline him so he goes toward Argus and the Suicide Squad, Felicity get's sidelined and she goes to Ray.  Oliver, in the end, learns that they are his partners and not his sidekicks and he can't be the Arrow without them.  

That's an interesting thought because presumably the reason Oliver stops dating Felicity and pushes Diggle away is that he feels he can't be The Arrow if he's also Oliver Queen.  But in pushing his team away, he loses the very thing he's trying to obtain.

 

 

 

I don't buy Sara as the BC from the beginning. But I do wonder if Sara was originally suppose to come back to take some of the weight off of Laurel/Oliver relationship. I cheated on you with your sister is bad enough but I cheated on you with your sister and she died while with me is a lot worse. Sara coming back would have taken some weight off of that romance arc and that's what she was originally suppose to do. Then Olicity became really popular and the writers realized that they wouldn't have time to get Laurel to BC before they had to deliver on the Oliver/Felicity arc so they just moved Sara into the BC role and then they could have their romantic pairing of the GA/BC.

I use to think Sara was marked for death but I'm leaning more toward a conversation happening where she tells Laurel she has moved beyond being the Canary and has taken on a new name (that she had to take a new name when she returned to the LOA in order for them to let her come back for example). That the canary represented the old Sara but Laurel should use the name and her old jacket.  The writers have handled this whole arc so poorly but I really don't see them being dumb enough to try to throw more bodies at Laurel's feet as a way to build her up; not when those people are as popular as Quentin and Sara. Also, SA seems to absolutely love doing fight scenes with CL. I don't think she will be a regular but a few times a season she will show up and help out.

 If they want Laurel to be the Black Canary, then they're going to have to give Sara something else because I doubt the audience would accept Laurel if Sara is dead -- they'll have a hard enough time accepting her even if Sara is alive.  

 

Using Sara as to take the pressure of Oliver/Laurel as an epic romance makes sense... but why were they still trying to push Oliver at Laurel in s2?

[NumberCruncher]

Even if Sara dies it is going to come across as Laurel trying to be Sara and that's what I have a problem with. Jealousy and I want what she's having are not good motivators for a hero. Laurel accused Sara of stealing her whole life, so Laurel returns the favor? The writers boxed themselves into this corner. The sisters will always be compared to each other and while I'm not a huge fan of Sara, I will always see Laurel as less than her by a mile. The show has a serious problem when most people point to Nyssa tranqing Laurel as a comedic moments. The only thing she has of the BC's mythos is the name (Sara has skills, Sin, costume, name, canary history) and I'm left wondering why I care what the BC's name is.

That's why I don't think it will be a case of Laurel wanting to be what Sara was. I still think that Laurel will be driven to become BC out of duty/vengeance for her sister (possibly as a result of Sara sacrificing herself to save her sister or another family member). I'm not saying I want that to happen, but I can easily see it happening that way.

I don't think it's surprising to anyone that what the EPs think they are portraying onscreen isn't necessarily how the audience is receiving it, so no--I don't have a hard time believing they always intended to bring Sara back as the Canary. They just didn't anticipate that the audience would respond so strongly to her and have the opposite reaction to Laurel. Furthermore, I don't think they realize just how much the audience doesn't like Laurel and would resent Sara dying to further her transition to BC.

[blixie]

 

Jealousy and I want what she's having are not good motivators for a hero.

They have already established she's a do gooder because she likes to help people with CNRI and being a DA, so jealous and envy are not really either her only,  nor her primary motivation, their just a small piece of the puzzle. I think they've done a shit job with everything about Laurel, but I don't see it as inorganic that she would be motivated by the idea of protecting herself from harm, contributing to fighting crime in the way literally every person she knows will be (as soon as Thea gets going), and in the process of doing those things becomes qualified to be BC. I don't think she's going to start S3 all anything Sara can do I can do better NEENER.

 

I think she's going to wonder how she can stop sucking and think maybe if I can at least handle my business in a fight I won't be easy pickings for Oliver or Sara's latest nutbar at my door, they won't have to worry about me so much. Maybe I can contribute to their efforts in some small way (via her place at the DA). That is perfectly fine motivation for Laurel, and only later if/when Sara eats it will she decide to go full BC.

[apinknightmare]

The "am I more than Oliver's crush" doesn't really make sense however you slice it.

 

I know that we're going to miss a lot of the development of that relationship over the 5-6 month time jump (GRRRR), but Oliver doesn't even ask her out until the premiere, and they break it off by the end of that episode. By the way the producers described Felicity's reaction ("like a date date?") she's surprised he even goes that far. So, at what point has she become so burdened by the idea of being Oliver's "crush" that it actually becomes an identity issue for her?

 

Plus, he told her he loved her. Not, "hey, I like you, hey l think you're great, hey, I'd like to kiss you," but that he loved her. Yeah, she thought it was a ruse, but SA and the producers have all hinted that it wasn't a bait and switch AND they also said that O/F have a real & raw conversation about what they mean to each other. SA even said that declarations were made. So, does Oliver tell her that he cares for her but doesn't reveal the depth of it, or does she not believe him when he does? Because a "crush" is not the terminology I'd use after a "real, raw conversation."

 

SA said during the interviews at Comic Con (wrt the "cavalcade of women is going to stop" and "There's one woman in Oliver's life this year, and that's Felicity) that they were trying to sell some things in the premiere that would ring false if he entered into another relationship or had a fling. I'm sure part of that has to do with believing he can't have a personal life while he's the Arrow, but I wonder if part of that is because he wants to prove to Felicity that his feelings are genuine? He's always really cared about her opinion of him, and I bet it would hurt him if he laid his heart out there and she didn't trust it. Even if they can't be together, I can see him wanting to prove his feelings to her - to put her first and encourage her to be happy. Long-suffering Oliver Queen type things, but with emotional growth and selflessness.

 

So, I just don't see how the "crush" angle comes into play. I really hope it was careless wording.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that I really need to see this ep, immediately if not sooner.

[NumberCruncher]

I do think it was just poor word choice.  At this point, they can't portray it as merely a crush on Oliver's part or they lose the whole depth of Oliver's "identity crisis" in being able to have a relationship as Oliver Queen and still be the Arrow.  I agree with you, @apinknightmare, that once the L-word was said--even if at the time it was a "ruse"--they can't chalk up all of the intimate Oliver/Felicity moments throughout S2 (and especially not that beach scene) to a crush situation.

Edited August 20, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[statsgirl]

Basically what I'm saying is that I really need to see this ep, immediately if not sooner.

I'm torn, because while I really want to see the conversation they have, I know it's going to end in them being farther apart and then Ray comes in.

 

SA said that it's his favourite Oliver/Felicity scene, and he tends to go for either the big action stuff or scenes that have a lot of emotion, like the "my baby died" scene with Susanna Thompson so I hope it's really good.  My guess is that Oliver lays his heart out and then tells Felicity he can never, ever be the lover/companion she needs, which leaves her free to consider Ray. If she's left thinking she's a crush object, then Oliver is lying to her again.

Edited August 20, 2014 by statsgirl

[Password]

I think Oliver and Felicity's discussion will clear up a lot of what we're hypothesising. At the end of the day it seems as if Oliver will lay down his feelings for Felicity but decide he can't go there whilst being the Arrow. Whilst I think Felicity will have a real decision to make, it will very much include Oliver overall because SHE has feelings for him too. If Oliver becomes cold and standoffish (for the whole season) it doesn't seem like much of a choice as it does a decision that he made for her. Why stick around if Oliver absolutely makes it seem like they're done when Ray is someone she really connects with. If she knows that door is closed, it seems an easy decision because Felicity doesn't dwell or pine. Whereas Oliver staying single, and doing whatever else he does to connect with her might make her hesitate somewhat.

If that makes sense. Haha the whole thing, like @apinknightmare just makes me want the premiere badly.

[Orion]

 

Using Sara as to take the pressure of Oliver/Laurel as an epic romance makes sense... but why were they still trying to push Oliver at Laurel in s2?

 

Oh no I think the Oliver/Laurel relationship was ended at Tommy's grave. I wasn't clear with my thoughts. What I meant was that they decided to bring Sara back alive very early in Season 1 when they started getting the bad reviews of the Laurel/Oliver relationship to relieve some of the pressure that Oliver's cheating with Laurel's sister and causing her death brought on. I think they were trying to decide who Sara would come back as up until the premiere of Season 2. McKenna mistaking Sara and her canary was both a lead in to Sara coming back as the canary and hint toward Laurel being the canary, it could have gone either way at that point (Sara has the association with the canary bird but Laurel could have chosen the name to honor the sister that died and not the villain that returned). The producers said they considered Ravanger? for Sara but I think they ultimately chose the Canary so that they could have the GA/BC relationship (fighting and love interest) earlier than they were originally planning and because Laurel was no longer the love interest, so there was no reason not to put those two together while they had the chance.

 

 

They have already established she's a do gooder because she likes to help people with CNRI and being a DA, so jealous and envy are not really either her only,  nor her primary motivation, their just a small piece of the puzzle..

 

For me, that's where this whole arc from the beginning doesn't work. They've told me she's a do gooder, they have played lip service to it but I haven't seen it. I've seen her be good at blackmail, I've seen her be angry, I've seen her blame other people for things that they don't deserve to be blamed for, I've seen her yell at her father, throw a glass at her sister, and make situations that should not be about her, all about Laurel.  Even in situations where I should have seen it, when she takes the little boy back to her apartment after his parents are killed in Season 1 for example, Tommy is the one that gets the do gooder role. He's the one that connects to the boy, he's the one that protects the kid while the murder is in the house.  It's why I really wish they would just take her down the anti-hero path so I could believe in her character.

 

 

 

Basically what I'm saying is that I really need to see this ep, immediately if not sooner.

 

^^^^This SO much!

 

Edited August 20, 2014 by Orion

[Starfish35]

Here's the Sara as Ravager quote:

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Arrow-Ravager-Summer-Glau-Spoilers-Kreisberg-1080585.aspx?rss=breakingnews&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews

In fact, they originally had other plans for Ravager. "Isabel was the one thing we weren't entirely sure about as we were developing the season," Kreisberg says. "Truthfully, there was a very early iteration of the series where Sara [Caity Lotz] started the season as Ravager, and then we switched over."

[statsgirl]

On "the glass is half full" side, at least they followed their gut feelings to make Isabel a villain and Sara the BC.

For me, that's where this whole arc from the beginning doesn't work. They've told me she's a do gooder, they have played lip service to it but I haven't seen it. I've seen her be good at blackmail, I've seen her be angry, I've seen her blame other people for things that they don't deserve to be blamed for, I've seen her yell at her father, throw a glass at her sister, and make situations that should not be about her, all about Laurel.  Even in situations where I should have seen it, when she takes the little boy back to her apartment after his parents are killed in Season 1 for example, Tommy is the one that gets the do gooder role. He's the one that connects to the boy, he's the one that protects the kid while the murder is in the house.  It's why I really wish they would just take her down the anti-hero path so I could believe in her character.

The bizarre thing is, I truly believe that AK and MG believe that they have shown her to be a 'good-doer' and they don't know why the audience hasn't taken to her.  They are determined not to take her down the dark path, and just in case we don't believe it, they've cast David Cubbitt as Manhunter to show all those who were suggesting Laurel should have the role.

 

In the interviews at SDCC, they implied that they learned from what didn't work in s2.  I'm curious to see if they did and they're going to give her stories that remain on the periphery of Team Arrow and leave her to do her job as a prosecutor.  If they try to put her in the Cave or make her BC, then I guess they didn't.

[Morrigan2575]

Here's the Sara as Ravager quote:http://www.tvguide.com/News/Arrow-Ravager-Summer-Glau-Spoilers-Kreisberg-1080585.aspx?rss=breakingnews&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews

I knew it was AK that made the quote but now that I read it again it doesn't actually invalidate the other quote.

In other words, while writing the pilot they came up with the idea that Sara survived the boat and shows up in S2 as Canary. Then when plotting out the story for S2 they come up with the idea to make Sara "Ravager" but then decide against it and go back to Sara as Canary.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Guest]

Yeah I think the Felicity as Oliver's 'crush object' was just badly worded because I remember in that same section it said something like 'Am I Laurel or am I my sister?' in relation to Laurel's identity which is just plain stupid if you ask me. I think it's just paraphrasing their intentions for the season but doing it badly.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Guest

[KirkB]

In the interviews at SDCC, they implied that they learned from what didn't work in s2.  I'm curious to see if they did and they're going to give her stories that remain on the periphery of Team Arrow and leave her to do her job as a prosecutor.  If they try to put her in the Cave or make her BC, then I guess they didn't.

 

Bolding mine. Here's the problem with that. What do THEY think didn't work? Many of us on forums like this have our own personal ideas about what did and not work in season 2, but we have no idea what theirs are. They may think Laurel didn't get enough screen time or wasn't badass enough.

[TanyaKay]

Yeah I think the Felicity as Oliver's 'crush object' was just badly worded because I remember in that same section it said something like 'Am I Laurel or am I my sister?' in relation to Laurel's identity which is just plain stupid if you ask me. I think it's just paraphrasing their intentions for the season but doing it badly.

 

I agree, that is just some bad PR copy writing, CW should really need to hire smarter people. Perhaps they pay shit money and get really bad people to work for them.

[Morrigan2575]

In the interviews at SDCC, they implied that they learned from what didn't work in s2.  I'm curious to see if they did and they're going to give her stories that remain on the periphery of Team Arrow and leave her to do her job as a prosecutor.  If they try to put her in the Cave or make her BC, then I guess they didn't.

 

They actually said that last year as well.  In fact that was something SA and the EPs said repeatedly in the early S2 interviews.  That the EPs used S1 as a training bike and took what did work and focused on that and, then limited/got rid of the stuff that didn't work (which you can actually see in 201-209).  They also made comments in the interviews down towards the end of the season that they knew they made mistakes and had learned from them.  

 

One mistake MG mentioned was that they went too big in S2 and had too many story-lines going on and weren't able to do them justice when trying to wrap everything up for the finale. - S3 was supposed to be more "intimate" in answer to that, going back to smaller stories like in S1.

 

AK and MG have both mentioned mistakes with Laurel but we don't know what they think the mistakes were or what they're planning to do about it.  My guess is that they think the mistake was that Laurel didn't know the secret and that she wasn't BC (pretty sure AK said something to the effect of "everyone just wants her to be BC already").  So they're idea of fixing the issue might be to push her into to Team Arrow and make her Canary.

[tv echo]

Even if the EPs come up with some motivation for Laurel to walk Sara's vigilante path, are they going to address the hypocrisy of being a DA during the day (someone charged with enforcing laws and prosecuting those who break laws) and a vigilante at night (someone who breaks laws)?  Or are they just going to hand-wave away the legal and ethical obligations that come with being a DA?

[wingster55]

They might just make some DareDevil reference.

[blixie]

 

Or are they just going to hand-wave away the legal and ethical obligations that come with being a DA?

Whenever, if ever, she becomes BC, there's no way to say she'll still be a DA, and I really can't get worked up over that anyway. In Laurel's "hero" favor she's never murdered anyone. Repeatedly. As her job. Like her sister. And Oliver. I mean seriously, the idea that Laurel could never be heroic because she's blackmailed someone and is jus jellus is ridiculous. This isn't the Good Wife, I'm unconcerned with Laurel's legal ethics.

 

I don't like Laurel, I don't want her to be BC, I think her narrative to this point has been far more supportive of an anti-hero/good girl gone bad, or always bitchy girl finally revealed, but it isn't UNPOSSIBLE to write a story where I could buy her as BC and accept her even if it costs me/the show Sara. But the only way that works for me if it doesn't happen for YEARS. Like S5 or series finale styles.

 

I can't see any universe in which TPTB aren't aware of how much more popular Caty's Sara/BC is than Katie/Laurel. They back grounded Laurel literally in the marketing of S2, and while she was in-artfully inserted back into the back end of the second season she still wasn't a significant piece of any of the arcs, and I saw no real hints about her being BC anytime soon, while seeing pretty solid evidence they've scorch earthed Laurel/Oliver. I think they know they screwed that character up royal, and in the process screwed Katie Cassidy,and feel bad and are still trying to find a way for her to "fit". I think S3 is a do or die season for Laurel, can they rehab all the damage enough to where people start to like her and root for her? If they succeed she'll eventually be BC, if not she'll either go evil or they'll cut KC loose, or some combo of both those things. I have to believe that, cause damn I can't deal with Laurel sucking all over the place for three more years AND losing Sara.

[Velocity23]

She killed the cop during her drug addiction storyline in self defense but not really showing any remorse. 

[pootlus]

I still think that the stuff they're flinging at her for S3 is the last chance saloon and if it doesn't work out, Cassidy's contract won't be renewed at the end of the year. The training/Wildcat stuff just smacks too much of "okay, one reason we hear why people don't like Laurel is that she's not a hero/kicking ass, so let's start her on that path and see how people react".

There must have been at least one exec meeting where someone mused about how much better value they could get from her salary, especially if the budget was cut again for S3 (was it? Does anyone know?).

[abhi]

I would love to know who is the highest paid actor on the show. I bet it will be Katie Cassidy or at least she will have an equal pay as Amell. From a financial point of view, the output is negligible when one would consider the cost w.r.t Cassidy.

Edited August 21, 2014 by abhi

[wonderwall]

It's ironic that Katie is one of the highest paid actors on Arrow (if not the most) yet adds almost nothing to the show.  

[calliope1975]

At one point, they were making the same amount. I am going to refrain from digging to find out if that remains the same because I like my job and would like to keep it.

[wonderwall]

@calliope1975 Ah, I'm guessing you're in the entertainment biz? 

[calliope1975]

@wonderwall Something like that. :D

[Velocity23]

Ahhhh! I want it now! Dorks! 

 

Edited August 21, 2014 by Velocity23

[Starfish35]

Is that the episode they're shooting now?

[Velocity23]

they finish shooting 3x04 tomorrow.  

[Starfish35]

Thanks. Lol I just saw the response you added. :)

Edited August 21, 2014 by Starfish35