hogwash December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 They took out all the Merlyns in one season. It didn't stick but they did the same with the remaining Queens. Link to comment
tarotx December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Robert Queen is The Arrow because he survived the boat and Oliver Died. My ;) version of giving Laurel everything Sara gives Laural the Boat. And your possibly right about about AK's Dinah being Earth 2 BC. But like I said I was mainly just joking. But even the superheroes arent the same on Earth 2. Jay Garrick is the Flash, Robert Queen seems to be Green Arrow. I would expect LL and Saras mother to be Black Canary there. 1 Link to comment
tv echo December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) Remember that interview where one of the EPs used baseball analogies and said that KC & WH had been benched for most of S2, so they were being brought forward in S3, and how with such a large cast, they had to put other characters (Diggle) back some, etc. -- I don't recall the exact wording. Now this season, WM had said this is year of Diggle and Felicity. Well, using their revolving door rationale, it could be that next season (S5), Laurel will be brought forward again and given a big revenge arc. (That's assuming she has little to do in the back half of S4.) Edited December 17, 2015 by tv echo 1 Link to comment
hogwash December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Laurel being an vindictive idiot because someone she loved just died. Take 3. Sounds like fun. 15 Link to comment
Velocity23 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) But its not like they pushed Thea in the background very much. And they gave Thea the struggling arc. It feels like her screentime grew in s4. Edited December 17, 2015 by Velocity23 3 Link to comment
Sakura12 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Oh noes, I really hope Hunkie Hubby doesn't die so that Curtis can become Mr. Terrific. Why is death the only way this show motivates people to become superheroes? Thank goodness for Felicity, who did it because she wanted to do good, not because someone was fridged for her. Sara also didn't have any loved one die to motivate her to help people. Although now I suppose her own death will motivate her to get some light or something. But still no died, but her to motivate her to fight the good fight. 1 Link to comment
Chaser December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 IIRC, they said Curtis wouldn't be Mr. Terrific this season. Does anyone believe that? Link to comment
tv echo December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) As a refresher... -- On Oliver keeping his son secret from Felicity, WM: “Well, for Arrow, it's definitely going to come to a head in the middle of the season. I can't tell you how or exactly how that's gonna happen. But obviously for the arc of Oliver and Felicity's relationship this season, the fact that he's keeping this from her... True to what we've done on the show, if there's a secret somewhere, it's going to come out and it's going to have some serious consequences... We're really excited about how that's going to change things and it's really going to raise the stakes and throw some wrenches into the works of their relationship, which so far this season has been pretty smooth sailing. True to form, we're gonna really mine that. There'll be some fallout for both of them.” (IGN, ETonline, TVLine, Variety, Hollywood Reporter and EW articles, page 106 of Starling City Times thread) That sounds like a break-up to me. Edited December 17, 2015 by tv echo 4 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 December 17, 2015 Author Share December 17, 2015 IIRC, they said Curtis wouldn't be Mr. Terrific this season. Does anyone believe that?Not me Link to comment
way2interested December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Oh that IGN article, the one thing, besides 408 itself, that really made me worried for this season. Yep, an EP isn't going to come out and say "our couple has an intense fight and break-up for a good few episodes" even if it is what ends up happening. Still, I feel like there has to be something that's missing from the story. I honestly don't think that they would want to do a repeat of a fight/break-up (especially if they know that this story wasn't well received, even from actual reviewers, they would probably try to distance themselves from it), since it would be rehashing the same type of scene. I think that they'll try for a dramatic sad type of break-up scene, if in fact everything does come to a head at once and they do break-up.I do wonder what she means by "serious consequences" though. Is breaking up the consequences that she means? I feel like them breaking up can't be too serious if they do want them to het back together hypothetically by the season finale. Is it something else entirely? What else would happen at this point? Link to comment
hogwash December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 What's the next breakup gonna look like? And why should I care? They've already done several breaks, one breakup, an "I need space". It's lost its sting. Plus, walking away from an engagement is way different from one of S03's "make Ray an option" breakups. It's pretty final. The BM situation is contrived to hit all of Felicity's berserk buttons when it comes to Oliver but eh. Their lives are (freakishly and completely) intertwined at this point and this being the final straw is a little too small? 3 Link to comment
Guest December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 "There'll be some fallout for both of them.” What does that even mean? It makes it sound like Felicity is partly in the wrong but she's the one being lied to. Hmm... I'm of two minds about how this fallout happens. After 408 I thought we were definitely heading for a break-up, partly because of Felicity's initial reaction in the original timeline and partly because I feel like Oliver needs to learn that he can't rely on lying all the time. Losing Felicity would certainly do that. And she's forgiven him for so many other things that I feel like there should be a limit to what she accepts and this isn't just a little lie to keep her safe. This is something which affects their life together as a married couple forever. However, after 409 and Felicity's speech in the cell about struggling through the dark times together, I thought that maybe they wouldn't break up. Maybe we'd have them talking things through or a couple of episodes where they take some space but slowly figure things out together. I just don't know. I want to see how the story pans out from 410 onwards before I make up my mind. But it would certainly break convention if they didn't actually break-up. Link to comment
way2interested December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 I just don't know. I want to see how the story pans out from 410 onwards before I make up my mind. But it would certainly break convention if they didn't actually break-up. Ha, while the general audience struggles with guessing who's in the grave, I will be over here pondering whether two people will get their acts together and stay together or break-up. On a hopeful note, Olicity's been breaking some conventions for a while now, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. On the other hand, this is first and foremost a drama, which pretty much dictates that they'll have to have seemingly insurmountable problems. 8 Link to comment
bijoux December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Yay, Nyssa! I hope she comes back to mess up Malcolm but good. And I really want to see how she reacts to Sara being back and off. Link to comment
Velocity23 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 I love Nyssa, but the LOA storyline needs to die. 7 Link to comment
Sakura12 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Nyssa will probably have all her scenes with Laurel again, since Sara's on another show. They might as well keep the tradition of Nyssa and Laurel having more scenes than Sara and Nyssa. Link to comment
hogwash December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 I hope they talk about Laurel leaving her to rot. 6 Link to comment
Primal Slayer December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Laurels motivation for being a masked hero is pretty clear cut to me. She always wanted to save her city, it's been her M.O. from the first episode. Sara's death, Olivers disappearance and TA brief disbandedment just drove her to suit up and be more direct in the battle to save everyone. So that won't need exploration anymore. Im excited to see Nyssa again, hopefully they don't mess up her storyline. Wonder if she will appear in LoT. Makes no sense for her to not seek out Sara and vice versa. Link to comment
Velocity23 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Laurel only wanted to were a mask because her sister had one first. And then she became her and took her name. 4 Link to comment
Primal Slayer December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Considering she didn't suit up until Oliver was gone and TA disbanded, i dont think it had to do soley with Sara. She used The Canary because criminals were afraid of her, it isn't much different from Diggle suiting up as Arrow for a brief time. Link to comment
Velocity23 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 She also pretended to be Sara infront of her dad. No one pretended to be Oliver infront of Olivers loved ones. 1 Link to comment
Sakura12 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 They had everyone say Laurel wanted to save the city with very little of her actually doing that. Then she only put on the mask after Sara died when she wasn't at all prepared or ready to be wearing one. The show even had her motivation being wanting to honor Sara by becoming her. Then they showed Laurel wanting to be a hero for the glory of being one, not because she trained hard and prepared herself for that life. She wants people to look at her like a hero. I don't see Laurel saying she wants to save the city, I see her whining that Oliver doesn't want her out there (when she wasn't ready to be out there) and yelling at Oliver that he doesn't see her as an equal (when she's not one). 7 Link to comment
Primal Slayer December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 She also pretended to be Sara infront of her dad. No one pretended to be Oliver infront of Olivers loved ones. And that had nothing to do with her suiting up. That was just done out of fear of how Saras death would affect her father. Link to comment
Guest December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) Have I missed something? How do we know Nyssa's coming back? Edited December 17, 2015 by Guest Link to comment
Starfish35 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Katrina Law interview posted in the Spoilers Only thread. Link to comment
Velocity23 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 And that had nothing to do with her suiting up. That was just done out of fear of how Saras death would affect her father. And managed to get all of Team Arrow in trouble because she couldnt tell her father the truth. And as always got off free. Honestly Laurels motivation for wanting to be a vigilante is weak as hell. Especially the way she was portrayed in the flashback 3 years after Oliver and her sister went missing, to the whole finding who killed her sister arc. She should have been the driving force in that arc, but we saw everybody else more involved than her. 6 Link to comment
Primal Slayer December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) TA are adults, they decided to go along with it. Laurel was already a hero when the show began imo. She was putting herself out there and helping the helpless in court. Her suiting up and putting her life on the line for others makes her a hero as well. Edited December 17, 2015 by Primal Slayer Link to comment
wonderwall December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) See, I'm still unclear why Laurel wanted the mask... In season 1 she liked helping the unfortunate (which is not = to her wanting to save the city) by working for CNRI. Then in season 2 she started working for the DAs office but literally did nothing there because she was busy being her alcoholic/druggie self and got fired and only got her job back through blackmail (very heroic of her, I know). Then in season 3 in episode 1 you could see that she was working with helping Team Arrow put bad guys in jail, but that literally had nothing to do with putting on a mask. She was happy with her career as a lawyer. So yeah, Laurel liked helping putting bad guys away, but she didn't have to do it with a mask on. Then Sara died and Laurel felt angry and she started to fight because it quenched the 'fire in her' as she told Oliver after she got beat up by that thug. So her first motivation to fight crime was selfish. She wanted to fight because it made HER feel better. Then Oliver died and then she put that mask on because 1) it was a way for her to feel better 2) because the city didn't have a mask anymore. Then it was shown in Canaries that she wanted to be more like her sister which is why she put on her mask and apparently she gave that up after her hallucinations and Felicity giving her that horrid pep talk about her having light inside her that Sara didn't have... The show since then never bothered to give Laurel any motivation... Is she doing it to still honor her sister? Is she doing it because it makes her feel better? Is she doing it because she wants to help people (which hasn't explicitly been said after she put on that mask so I have a hard time believing this)? Is she doing it for the glory of it all (considering she likes recognition... The "I helped too" in 409 was indicative of this)? Or hell, is it all of the above? The show never specified this. Right now for me, it seems like she's doing it because she has nothing else to do... Which isn't really good. The issue in all this is that this is all speculative. Laurel has been given zero voice in her own story which goes to show just how little the writers care about her. Edited December 17, 2015 by wonderwall 15 Link to comment
Guest December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) Katrina Law interview posted in the Spoilers Only thread. Doh! I didn't even think to check there. LOL. I like Nyssa so it's always nice to see her back. I hope she gives everyone hell though. Laurel and Thea just totally left her in prison in NP once Laurel got what she wanted. I'd be PISSED. Edited December 17, 2015 by Guest Link to comment
Sakura12 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 If Nyssa's reaction to Sara breaking up with her and leaving the LOA was to poison her sister and kidnap her mother, her reaction to being thrown in prison by the man that murdered her beloved has to be much worse. However since we are talking about Laurel "Teflon" Lance, Nyssa will probably thank her and give her a hug. Then tell she's always trying to save the world then die. 10 Link to comment
Velocity23 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 The reason why i have a hard time believing LL always trying to say the world is the flashback episode 3x14 "Do you remember when I was going to take that corporate job in San Francisco? Do you remember what you said to me? You were mad because I wasn't choosing a life where I was going to help people." That also make me question who was the one that wanted her to work in CNRI. Her or her father. 1 Link to comment
Primal Slayer December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Laurel also stated in Canaries "fighting for your city isn't selfish, it's what a hero would do" talking about her fighting for her city which is her motivation apart from honoring her sister. Link to comment
lemotomato December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Maybe this should all go into the Laurel thread? 9 Link to comment
kismet December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) I enjoy Nyssa, but I really hope she meant to say LoT, but used ARROW instead to keep from ruining the surprise of LoT flashbacks or time travels to reveal SL's past. Honestly, I don't see how they need her in present day ARROW besides to take down MM or LOA. Both of which stories do not need to be addressed right now. I think they found a happy medium in how MM is being portrayed. He's not getting glorified or his sins are not completely being washed under the table. He's just there helping TA and trying to do something manipulative or double-crossy with VS. I really feel like LoA has no need to be present in this season besides being some extra muscle minions or providing access to the LP. Mission accomplished on both. Meanwhile, I have been craving how Nyssa & SL came to meet each other and become lovers. That is a story that needs more telling. But that can be on LoT now. Not some rehashing of MM getting taken down, but not really because we know that they won't get rid of him yet. And whatever way the work out to take down DD, I doubt they need Nyssa's help. Edited December 17, 2015 by kismet 2 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 December 17, 2015 Author Share December 17, 2015 The problem with that is we know JB has been filming for 410-414 and that there's supposedly a big Merlyn/Darhk scene coming up. From everything we've seen Merlyn is going to have a larger presence the back half of S4 and the EPs indicated early on the Nyssa would be back to settle the score with Merlyn. While I would love to see more Nyssa/Sara interaction, I've heard nothing about KL going to LoT, just Arrow. Link to comment
statsgirl December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) I agree, I hope Nyssa will be on LoT rather than Arrow because this is a good balance for Malcolm right now. Finally, after 2 seasons. And I don't want the ship rocked. Even the idea of a LoA/HIVE war doesn't thrill me because it's not Oliver's story and I'm tired of him being an also-ran on his won show. Although I wonder, does DD still want to be Ra's or has he found that his power is enough to feed his ego? Re a possible break-up: Would Oliver running for mayor affect whether there is an actual break-up or just an ice storm? It seems to me that Felicity would think that it would lower his approval rating a lot if they broke up and no matter how angry she is, she's not vindictive. So for me, yes to the fall-out (like ep 4x06), no to actually splitting up. I still don't care about Laurel's motivation. The issue with her was always that she had nothing to offer Team Arrow as a untrained lawyer. I think the EPs share your attitude but I think she could have helped lots as a lawyer, in the way Quentin helps as a cop. And then, after working with Team Arrow for a season or so, she gets frustrated that she's not helping enough and dons a mask. It would have been more organic in terms of following her motivations. Sara also didn't have any loved one die to motivate her to help people. Although now I suppose her own death will motivate her to get some light or something. But still no died, but her to motivate her to fight the good fight. Not a loved one but didn't she start becoming a vigilante try to make up for the people she herself killed as an assassin? Edited December 17, 2015 by statsgirl 2 Link to comment
kismet December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) The problem with that is we know JB has been filming for 410-414 and that there's supposedly a big Merlyn/Darhk scene coming up. From everything we've seen Merlyn is going to have a larger presence the back half of S4 and the EPs indicated early on the Nyssa would be back to settle the score with Merlyn. While I would love to see more Nyssa/Sara interaction, I've heard nothing about KL going to LoT, just Arrow. I agree that we haven't heard anything about her going to LoT. I guess I'm just hoping it happens. Because I dread the possibilities with her coming back to ARROW. Because if she manages to defeat MM and take her rightful place as Ras then we will be stuck with MM on a more full time basis. Plus they will probably write that TA will feel bad for him and take him in. I don't want to see another MM on the couch story. And I don't want to see Nyssa taken out of prison only to be used as hired muscle or bait for DD. Unless of course she is now being the sacrificial lamb in the cast, because the writers have changed their minds and decided not to kill a main cast member. She can be prominent and her death would affect a few people. It clears the way for the O/F wedding, solidifies MM as LoA leader and would be someone DD might come after considering his relationship with RAs. I don't mind MM having a bigger part of s4b if he is being useful and helping to take down DD. But I can't see how Nyssa coming back makes that story better. I only see the potential for bad. I actually don't mind him double crossing TA with VS. I like MM as he is now. What I do mind is TA feeling bad for him or having a repeat of s3b where MM was shoehorned into being the only option. MM should always be a frenemy bringing Nyssa back makes me think they will try to make him more friend than frenemy. Edited December 17, 2015 by kismet 1 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 December 17, 2015 Author Share December 17, 2015 (edited) The problem is that having MM being in 408-414 (at least) tells me they are planning to shoehorn Merlyn into the show again, just like S4. I was fine with how (little) he was used in 401-409 and for the most part it worked. However, I don't trust them when it comes to Merlyn or Barrowman and bringing Nyssa back is for more Merlyn/LoA storytelling. They told us this very early on, we knew it was happening eventually. Edited December 17, 2015 by Morrigan2575 Link to comment
Velocity23 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Well at least Barrowman already left Vancouver. Link to comment
AyChihuahua December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 I don't see how breaking up with someone who's lied to you about something huge could possibly be vindictive, or why in the world she should have to stay with him to keep up his approval ratings or otherwise she's vindictive. Is she allowed to break up with him, ever, for anything? We saw her reaction to his lies in 4.08. We saw that these writers are incapable of consistency across episodes (Flash 2.08, Felicity brings him peace, Arrow 4.08; lie lie lie to her). So one line in 4.09 means she won't break up with him for lying to her? I would imagine, especially given the context, she was thinking more about weathering people attacking them, not Oliver lying to her face about something huge. And, if she doesn't break up with him, the whole storyline is pointless...it's obviously a stall, so if they just mosey on together, what does it stall? If she doesn't break up with him, he'll never learn. He's gotten away with lying to his loved ones again and again and again. They all just get over it, or tell him they're proud and get over it. The longest anyone's been mad at him is Digg, and that was a few months, most of which they were on separate continents. If she just bygones this, he'll keep doing it. That's in-show. Out-of-show, what in the world was the point of him lying if there's not a bunch of drama, plus this is still Guggie, it's still everyone from S3. People seem to think Guggie et al., learned their lessons...what lesson, that melodrama, angst, and stupidity bring great ratings? Why would he stop that NOW? Also, if she doesn't massively kick his ass about this, she really is a Mary Sue. Or a saint or a martyr or a doormat. "Boy, Oliver, it must have been so hard for you to lie to my face and snuggle my boobs after lying to my face! Come here and let me give you a big ol' kiss!" What Oliver is doing is WRONG, and she/the narrative have to make that really clear to him. 4 Link to comment
Sakura12 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) Not a loved one but didn't she start becoming a vigilante try to make up for the people she herself killed as an assassin? That was never said on screen. Sara never said she was looking for redemption for the lives she took. She felt guilty and didn't want to call herself a hero because of that. Her motivation was "No woman should ever suffer at the hands of men". Which is why she was always beating up rapists including when she didn't have a soul. Now whether or not she was raped was never out righted stated. Edited December 17, 2015 by Sakura12 3 Link to comment
lexicon December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) Laurel was already a hero when the show began imo. She was putting herself out there and helping the helpless in court. Her suiting up and putting her life on the line for others makes her a hero as well. I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree on Laurel being a hero when the show started. I know a lot of lawyers personally who help people and to use the word hero to describe them in the same breath as Oliver Queen and his team, who we've seen putting their physical and mental well being at risk time and again for SC, without any desire for praise, is a great disservice. To do so would be to equate every legal aid lawyer out there with heroism and while I think it's a noble and important job, it certainly ain't in the same stratosphere as stopping the Undertaking, bringing down the LOA or fighting Slade's mirakuru soldiers. Edited December 17, 2015 by lexicon 5 Link to comment
calliope1975 December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Since JB is a series regular, I figured they'd have to use him more at some point, or it's a waste of money. Unfortunately for me, a little bit of MM goes a long way. 4 Link to comment
kismet December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Making MM more prominent is one thing, bringing back Nyssa to do it is a whole other can of worms. They do pay the guy, so it would make sense to utilize his talents. Link to comment
Chaser December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 I wonder if "Sins of the Father" pertains to Calculator, Oliver, Malcolm and Lance. 2 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 December 17, 2015 Author Share December 17, 2015 414 is called "Code of Silence", speculation discussion mode engage! Link to comment
Guest December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) Well, I guess 414 might be the episode Felicity finds out about William? Or maybe this is when someone else finds out first and says Oliver was right to keep it secret which I hate but whatever. And then break-up? Felicity slept with Ray in 315 last season so I'm guessing things are gonna be problematic for Olicity around the same time this year. Edited December 17, 2015 by Guest Link to comment
Password December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 Or maybe this is when someone else finds out first and says Oliver was right to keep it secret which I hate but whatever. If there's one thing I do not look forward to it's seeing this play out. Baring in mind the EPs often over exaggerate things and it may read differently, but I can already feel an anger build up over THIS nonsense. 2 Link to comment
way2interested December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 414 is called "Code of Silence", speculation discussion mode engage! Immediate Speculation: Felicity finds out about Oliver's kid via her dad, but keeps it a secret from Oliver to give him a chance to speak up about it...he doesn't. Other person finds out about the kid, keeps it a secret with Oliver.Lance's partnership with DD comes to a head, hence the big stunt sequence with him and Laurel. Malcolm finds out something about HIVE via LoA and tells Oliver or Thea, who must keep it a secret to not start a battle between HIVE and LoA. But it's just my random speculation. 1 Link to comment
Guest December 17, 2015 Share December 17, 2015 (edited) If there's one thing I do not look forward to it's seeing this play out. Baring in mind the EPs often over exaggerate things and it may read differently, but I can already feel an anger build up over THIS nonsense. Yeah, I don't agree with any of this contrived storyline but getting someone else to support Oliver in this makes me a bit rage-y because it's implying that Felicity will be the bad guy in all this and she'll just be overreacting. Um, how about no. But I knew it was gonna happen as soon as MG came out with his interview after the backlash and his 'Oliver was put in a tough position' bullshit. Edited December 17, 2015 by Guest Link to comment
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