Spoiler Discussion Thread

[kismet]

Not that I want to get technical or defend OQ by any means because FTR I think what he did in final moments was wrong and warrants FS anger & disappointment. However, what he did in the final moments was withhold the truth. He technically did not lie. The time redux undid the actual lie. Do all of the trust issues still exist, yes. But those were probably percolating or gonna bubble to the surface soon anyway. 406 brought some issues up that were to be worked on to.

So the writers have a ripe scenario to explore O/F relationship. The fact he withheld information as opposed to lying is probably a better situation to work with. We know he has a tendency to withhold info & keep secrets when he feels threatened. So between the thought of losing FS & the ultimatum from BM its predictable that OQ would regressed to behavior that has worked in the past. The more time I spend with it, the more it makes sense to me that is what OQ would do. It's still crap writing but its not OOC or shocking.

I also think the way they wrote it makes it easier to FS to forgive him once they talk about it. He is clearly going to have to more than talk. There are valid issues that need to be hashed through. But this is the man FS fell in love with, it was one of his flaws that she was well aware of. So its not unforgivable yet and it hasn't broken O/F yet.

As for WMs excitement over the story potential, I can see how should think this is fabulous opportunity to delve deeper into the characters & the relationship. So as a writer I can see her being legit excited. What is becoming frustrating though is there other ways to achieve character exploration. BM drama as presented is the cheapest & least original way to do it.

So I understand her excitement, but I'm leery that she didn't think of something better in the first place. Then again this x-over script seemed to be the brainchild of MG & GB and I'm not sure I would have questioned them. I would probably let it unfold as it did and just work overtime to clean up the aftermath. So perhaps she is excited for the opportunity to fix this relationship and make it so the dumb of GB & MG can never reek havoc again. She can make O/F solid and perhaps MG proof, so that might be the silver lining in all of this.

Edited December 5, 2015 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

I disagree that this was a case of lie by omission. Sure, Oliver tends to do that all the time, but it's almost always motivated by his need to protect his loved ones [which ties into his insistence in making decisions for them. I.e. by withholding information]. But this time around, the only person he's really protecting is himself. Felicity is not in danger if she knows about William. William is not in danger if Felicity is made aware of his existence. But Oliver is in high emotional danger, because he thinks Felicity is gonna dump him and BM will refuse to let he see his son.

 

Plus: Felicity asked Oliver straight up what had him acting so strange in Central City, and he said "it doesn't matter, it's over". Well. It kinda really matters a whole lot, and it's not over.

 

But I don't think Wendy Mericle was cheerleading the O/F break-up. I think they're totally tying BM + William to Felicity's storyline with her father, and this lie is a plot device that will give Felicity a multi-episode arc, and I think they're psyched about that.

Edited December 5, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Morrigan2575]

Not that I want to get technical or defend OQ by any means because FTR I think what he did in final moments was wrong and warrants FS anger & disappointment. However, what he did in the final moments was withhold the truth. He technically did not lie. The time redux undid the actual lie. Do all of the trust issues still exist, yes. But those were probably percolating or gonna bubble to the surface soon anyway. 406 brought some issues up that were to be worked on to.

That's actually a good point and it might be what the show is banking on. He never lied, technically but he is keeping secrets which was still a huge issue for Felicity.

Personally I think Felicity will/should dump Oliver over this but I don't think it will end up being a monumental hurdle for the characters or the relationship. But it's not something that should be easily dismissed. We've all discussed their patterns so I would not be surprised for a 6-7 episode break followed by a reunion by season's end. However, I also wouldn't mind a break until S5 so they could really work on their issues.

[AyChihuahua]

 

I think it's because Oliver has done so many shitty things that if him being forced to lie to Felicity about his son is the inevitable big relationship-wrecking mistake he's going to make, it is probably not the worst thing he could have done.

The problem is, he's not being forced to lie.  BM has no possible way of knowing whether he tells Felicity.  That is just total nonsense.  If he really was being FORCED to lie, it would be totally different.  She told him to lie, he agreed, now he's lying.  ALL HE HAS TO DO IS TELL FELICITY.  She would never in a million years spill the secret.  This is so obvious that I can only infer that Oliver is lying bc Barry told him that Felicity dumps him, and he thinks she dumped him for having a kid, not for lying about it.  Therefore, HE IS LYING TO FELICITY ABOUT HAVING A KID TO PREVENT HER FROM DUMPING HIM.  That is so utterly despicable I cannot imagine defending it.    Would people be okay for him to lie to her about having an STD because she'd dump him?  He's got the herp and never tells her?  It's the same thing.  It's information that he KNOWS is highly relevant to her decision whether to stay with him and he's withholding it from her so that she behaves how he wants her to, i.e., doesn't dump him.  That is straight up emotional manipulation, and it is despicable.

 

Plus: Felicity asked Oliver straight up what had him acting so strange in Central City, and he said "it doesn't matter, it's over". Well. It kinda really matters a whole lot, and it's not over.

I agree, that is a huge lie.  He's not failing to tell her something, he's already actively lying about it, bc he's already planning to go back to visit.  He told the kid that.  It's not a lie of omission, it is ALREADY a lie of comission, and he's going to lie more every time he visits them.

[looptab]

To me saying 'It's over, it doesn't matter' does count as lying, since both those statements are not true.

But I'm in the wait and see camp. I've really no idea where they are going to go with this.

[Mrs. de Winter]

I wonder if MG’s tweet doesn’t have another purpose.  While I think it was a specious argument as presented, I wonder if it is more about what is coming up rather than what happened in the past.  SA posted the video of what seems to be Oliver electrocuting someone after Felicity has been hurt.  The show does seem to believe that Oliver has kept to the no kill rule except in extreme circumstances (e.g., Felicity in danger, Ra).  Now it looks like he will possibly kill when angry and/or for revenge.  I wonder if MG was less focused on the past with that tweet than he is on what is coming up so he can do a “see I told you” in the future.

 

My bigger worry is that there is going to be some twist that makes Mama Smoak look bad because this show seems to feel mothers have to always be keeping secrets from their kids.  Like Papa Smoak did come back at some point and she kept it/him from Felicity.  Felicity forgives her mom, Oliver sees this and thinks he can tell her about the kid but in the meantime Papa Smoak tells Felicity first and Felicity ends up feeling betrayed on all fronts. 

[AyChihuahua]

I could see Papa S sowing the seeds of isolating Felicity, with the idea that he'd get her to leave with him at the end of the season.  I am not as sure as, for example, jbuffyangel that the season is going to end with O and F together.

[hogwash]

Ugh, I hope that doesn't happen. I can't take another Thea/Merlyn situation. 

[NumberCruncher]

My bigger worry is that there is going to be some twist that makes Mama Smoak look bad because this show seems to feel mothers have to always be keeping secrets from their kids.  Like Papa Smoak did come back at some point and she kept it/him from Felicity.  Felicity forgives her mom, Oliver sees this and thinks he can tell her about the kid but in the meantime Papa Smoak tells Felicity first and Felicity ends up feeling betrayed on all fronts.

Oh yuck, they're totally going to parallel the Papa Smoak and Oliver situations here, aren't they? I think there's a real danger of this scenario happening and because Papa Smoak was thought of as "a bad influence" on account of him being eeeevil what Donna did will seem justified in Felicity's eyes. So naturally she will have to forgive Oliver because BM was only looking out for her kid's best interests. I see this coming and I hate it with the fire of a thousand burning suns.

[tv echo]

I really hope that the show's version of Calculator isn't irredeemably evil because I'd like to see TA return to the show from time to time.

 

I'm not so sure the EPs/writers are scrambling.  TBH, I think they (esp. the EPs) are kinda arrogant.

 

I will never get over how the comics GA looks old enough to be the comics BC's grandfather.

 

Regarding sending BM and William away - better yet, ship them off to E2 courtesy of the Flash.

 

Maybe this is all an evil plan by the EPs to make Olicity shippers turn against that ship and accept O. & F. with other people?  Of course, the downside of such a plan is that Olicity shippers may just turn off the show.

Edited December 5, 2015 by tv echo

[NumberCruncher]

I'm not so sure the EPs/writers are scrambling.  TBH, I think they (esp. the EPs) are kinda arrogant.

This. I don't think the EPs/writers are scrambling around either--though it's a nice thought to believe that they actually care all fans seem fairly united about this sucky BM nonsense--but I'm pretty sure they're looking at the (artificially inflated) ratings for this episode and patting themselves on the back in their total amazingness.

[way2interested]

Oh yuck, they're totally going to parallel the Papa Smoak and Oliver situations here, aren't they? I think there's a real danger of this scenario happening and because Papa Smoak was thought of as "a bad influence" on account of him being eeeevil what Donna did will seem justified in Felicity's eyes. So naturally she will have to forgive Oliver because BM was only looking out for her kid's best interests. I see this coming and I hate it with the fire of a thousand burning suns.

 

I definitely think that the parallel will come up. I've been thinking that ever since the beginning of s3. The question here is how will they parallel the situations exactly. Back in the beginning of s3 when people were speculating on how Oliver's kid was coming back, I thought that they would parallel the idea of fathers abandoning their families, with Felicity imploring Oliver to make contact with his son since she knew the pain of growing up without a father. Oliver, in his s2-s3 ways would have argued back that it would be too dangerous to bring his son into his life, emotionally and physically, and Oliver and Felicity would have hashed it out as we found out more substantial things about her dad.

 

Flash forward now, Oliver's kid and Felicity's dad are both being introduced near each other, making the obvious parallels obvious. I don't think that Donna did anything bad that needs to be construed as "justified" to justify Oliver's actions. In 406, she seemed genuinely surprised, confused, and upset that Felicity's dad never gave her the love and support back for the years that they were together (although, who knows, the writers may go back and change this). Besides, if Donna is the one who prevented Felicity's dad from contacting her, than that would parallel Samantha's situation more than Oliver's really, and this arc would be needed, I suspect, to convince Felicity of Oliver's actions rather than Samantha's.

 

Anyway, the way I see it going down is that Felicity will find out that The Calculator is her father, cue angst with that. She finds out the real reason he left, my guess is for some less-than-noble but justifiable reason. She finds out that he was never going to come back but still hoped the best for her. Then comes the realization that Oliver has a kid, probably from some form of emotional manipulation from The Calculator. Felicity becomes emotionally conflicted, not knowing the whole story, and ultimately breaks up with Oliver for similar reasons from 408 along with additional reasons brought on by feelings of abandonment (ex: "If you're keeping your son a secret from me, and me separated from your life with your son, then how will you go about living separate lives again? How could I even trust that you even want to fully be with me in every way? You're going to end up choosing one of them, like my father did, and I don't want to be a part of abandoning a child from his father" *cue break-up*)

 

The thing that I would do to make this whole drama arc better would be to have Felicity find out about the kid asap, even in 409. I know that WM implied that she wouldn't find out for a while, but I would appreciate a slow burn of build-up for the break-up instead of just a rushed fight that was in 408. They set the building blocks for trouble between Oliver and Felicity at the end of 408 with Felicity knowing that something is up with Oliver, but her ultimately finding out not doing anything too abrupt due to her compartmentalizing and her support in Oliver would be appreciative and slightly more mature IMO. My ideal timeline would be finding out in 409, ending with the cliffhanger in 409, and then 410-412 deal with the aftermath of Felicity healing/Oliver and Felicity dancing around the problem together refusing to acknowledge the new elephant in the room until something monumental, Felicity's dad, comes up and brings it upfront again. But, since these writers live for the dramatic reveal, I'll learn to deal with the dramatic break-up to come.

[looptab]

Am I the only one thinking that Felicity might already know that her father is the Calculator? 

[kismet]

I think DS will brought in to give the single mom perspective to the situation. I feel like she I going to provide support to OQs argument that he was trying to do best by the child by listening to the BMs demands. That OQ was really trying to do what he thought was best by FS, BM & William. It's short sighted but it was not done maliciously. And I feel like DS will help FS understand that. Or perhaps she will just call OQ out that what BM do was utter BS with her manipulation.

I still think OQ should have told FS. But so long as there is not any new lies because of BM, I feel like the more I sit with this deception the less im worried it will cause a severe break up, especially if they parallel it to papaSmoak. Because although OQ regressed temporarily it can still be explained and forgiven. It's a learning opportunity for O&F.

FTR - I still think it's a dumb storyline done for plot purposes. And the melodrama is over the top and poorly written. Also I hate the way they decided to tell it. But I think I can work with it. I just wish I didn't have to.

[Morrigan2575]

Ok this was just posted in the fanfic thread. I almost never agree with jbuffyangel but this is seriously funny and I think she's nailed the Writer's plan.

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/134556153148/inside-the-writers-room-a-little-ficlet-if-you

[SmallScreenDiva]

It's scary how that whole thing could be very real, LOL! (I think I may need the writers' therapist)

[way2interested]

Am I the only one thinking that Felicity might already know that her father is the Calculator? 

 

Codenames were a big deal in the comics, The Calculator was obsessed with Oracle while not knowing who she really was. So I'm guessing that Felicity's new codename, given to her just in time in 411, will play into her show-down with The Calculator, with them not knowing who each other really are. By the end of the episode, they'll probably find out each other's identities and Felicity will probably recognize her father/his name, or at least that's what I'm assuming.

[wonderwall]

Codenames were a big deal in the comics, The Calculator was obsessed with Oracle while not knowing who she really was. So I'm guessing that Felicity's new codename, given to her just in time in 411, will play into her show-down with The Calculator, with them not knowing who each other really are. By the end of the episode, they'll probably find out each other's identities and Felicity will probably recognize her father/his name, or at least that's what I'm assuming.

 

Do we know which episode apart from 12 Tom Amandes will be a part of? 

 

For now I can see him being in 13 as well because Donna will be in that episode too. Maybe she figures out who he is and asks Felicity why she's looking into her father? And then the Calculator disappears for a while after episode 13 and comes back at a later date?

 

I really want this storyline where The Calculator is obsessed with finding Oracle/Watchtower on Arrow. 

[Starfish35]

I thought it was 12 and 13, with the possibility of more in the future.

[AyChihuahua]

Unfortunately we know from spoilers that he's not going to dig himself out.  He's going to dig himself a bigger hole.  Then around 4.20 Felicity will just spontaneously get over it, bc they'll write her to get over it.  And then they'll do it all over again in S5.

 

Oliver is really the character that could strangle a kitten onscreen and get away with it, not Felicity.

[wonderwall]

Unfortunately we know from spoilers that he's not going to dig himself out.  He's going to dig himself a bigger hole.  Then around 4.20 Felicity will just spontaneously get over it, bc they'll write her to get over it.  And then they'll do it all over again in S5.

 

Oliver is really the character that could strangle a kitten onscreen and get away with it, not Felicity.

 

I'm willing to withhold judgement until I see the episodes to come. 

[way2interested]

Do we know which episode apart from 12 Tom Amandes will be a part of? 

 

For now I can see him being in 13 as well because Donna will be in that episode too. Maybe she figures out who he is and asks Felicity why she's looking into her father? And then the Calculator disappears for a while after episode 13 and comes back at a later date?

 

I really want this storyline where The Calculator is obsessed with finding Oracle/Watchtower on Arrow. 

 

Yep, he's in 2 episodes. CR even said that she and EBR were excited to share scenes with Papa Smoak in the next episode, referring to 413. And I would love that idea as well. One issue of the new Batgirl series with Stephanie Brown that I did like was an issue when Batgirl had to team up with Proxy, The Calculator's daughter, Wendy, to save Barbara after she was kidnapped by him for revenge while he used mind-control on different people, including Black Canary and the Huntress, I believe, to terrorize Gotham. I always like it in stories when side characters get their time to shine, so it was pretty cool to see Wendy save her friend and learn about her Oracle side identity. It was actually one of the reasons I kind of thought in the back of my mind that the Calculator could be her father, since the MO of Wendy seems to fit with Felicity. Funny thing there too is that The Calculator only came back into Wendy and her twin's lives after they were severely injured (Wendy's a paraplegic like Oracle).    

[dtissagirl]

Oh, man, Steph and Wendy working together during BQM's Batgirl run gave me the greatest thing that ever happened in any comic book: Steph explaining the Bat family history to Wendy in chibi form: http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dtissagirl/1158950/513665/513665_original.jpg

[apinknightmare]

Here's what I want to know: does Oliver even get another visit with the kid? When Samantha opens up her daily subscription to the Star City Ledger or reads her Google alerts for Oliver Queen and sees that Oliver got shot at on the beach of Star City Bay, publicly went after the ringleader of an organization like HIVE, got his mayoral campaign headquarters attacked, then got into whatever dangerous situation he gets into with Felicity in that bullet hole-ridden limo, she should be nipping any future visitation in the bud right quickly. And Oliver should want to stay away anyhow. Like...none of this makes a damn bit of sense.

 

Makes me wonder if Felicity's going to find out about the kid when DD publicly threatens him right around the time that her pops comes to town. Then Oliver can rescue him and send him and mama off into his own version of the witness protection program, never to be seen/heard from again.

[BkWurm1]

I feel like I should be freaking out, but I'm kind of... not. I think it's because Oliver has done so many shitty things that if him being forced to lie to Felicity about his son is the inevitable big relationship-wrecking mistake he's going to make, it is probably not the worst thing he could have done. For me, this is bad, but fixable. Cheating is where I draw the line.

And this is me being stupidly optimistic, but this is Oliver's first big screw up this season. I haven't seen anything else that indicates he's going to spiral out into bad decision-ville like he did last season, so I'm not going to panic until there's more to panic about.

Yes, but he did choose to go back to her. And then a couple episodes later they promptly wrote out the kid and his mom and they were never brought up again. I think I can live with that, depending on how they fix the Oliver lying part.

My issues right now is more to do with how completely I don't trust the writers not to do bullshit things for the sake of doing bullshit things.  If Oliver would lie and keep Felicity in the dark about surprise kid which makes no 'effing sense, that opens up the door for just about anything. 

 

Maybe something in 4-9 or 4-10 will restore some faith, like if he does try to come clean, but at this moment I'm having Smallville flashbacks, back to the seasons when I was sure they would/could never turn Clark against Chloe but then Doomsday came along.  I agree that there has been no indication that Oliver would regress even further than he has but then I don't think there is anything that would have hinted that he would have lied in the first place.    

 

But I don't think Wendy Mericle was cheerleading the O/F break-up. I think they're totally tying BM + William to Felicity's storyline with her father, and this lie is a plot device that will give Felicity a multi-episode arc, and I think they're psyched about that.

I could get behind her being excited about Felicity's storyline.  It's if she's excited about Oliver doing something that would really worry me. 

[AyChihuahua]

At least this can't open up the Lauriver door when O/F break up because of the kid whose existence came about because of Oliver cheating on Laurel.

 

Actually, Laurel's reaction is the only thing that I'm kind of interested about in this shitty storyline.  They probably won't spend any time on her reaction.  But the Laurel stuff has been so weird this season...she seems to have less to do than Roy now that Sara's back and gone again.  She's such an afterthought again.

Edited December 6, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[BkWurm1]

Here's what I want to know: does Oliver even get another visit with the kid? When Samantha opens up her daily subscription to the Star City Ledger or reads her Google alerts for Oliver Queen and sees that Oliver got shot at on the beach of Star City Bay, publicly went after the ringleader of an organization like HIVE, got his mayoral campaign headquarters attacked, then got into whatever dangerous situation he gets into with Felicity in that bullet hole-ridden limo, she should be nipping any future visitation in the bud right quickly. And Oliver should want to stay away anyhow. Like...none of this makes a damn bit of sense.

 

Makes me wonder if Felicity's going to find out about the kid when DD publicly threatens him right around the time that her pops comes to town. Then Oliver can rescue him and send him and mama off into his own version of the witness protection program, never to be seen/heard from again.

See the moment that BM actually has a good reason not to want Oliver to see her kid, that's actually the moment that Oliver would have the most power since now all he has to do is threaten to expose the secret if she doesn't let him tell Felicity.  If she's actually worried about her kid, then she wouldn't take the risk. 

[wonderwall]

 They probably won't spend any time on her reaction.  But the Laurel stuff has been so weird this season...she seems to have less to do than Roy now that Sara's back and gone again.  She's such an afterthought again.

 

And this is a problem.... why again? :p

[apinknightmare]

See the moment that BM actually has a good reason not to want Oliver to see her kid, that's actually the moment that Oliver would have the most power since now all he has to do is threaten to expose the secret if she doesn't let him tell Felicity.  If she's actually worried about her kid, then she wouldn't take the risk. 

 

But that's the same moment that Oliver should want to stay away from the kid as much as BM wants him to, because it wouldn't be safe. And honestly, it would make Oliver look like a complete asshole and a terrible potential father. It would be ten times worse than the dirtbag behavior he exhibited pre-island. Do what I want or I'll expose our kid to a madman? Yikes.

Edited December 6, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

And this is a problem.... why again? :p

Minimal Laurel is definitely not a problem, it just seems weird.  I do hope for a snarky line or two when she finds out, but please god no L/F bonding over douchebag Ollie/Oliver.

[Starfish35]

Well the way they've been writing Laurel lately, it may never even occur to them to have anyone tell her ever.

[kismet]

Random thoughts -

 

Could Roy really be related to FS? Because I wonder if they could be secret relations thanks to PapaSmoak. That might be interesting. Part of me does sorta want PapaSmoak to have a secret family. I just don't want it to be BM.

 

Could Roy be the one in the Wheelchair? He could have encountered some type of injury at the hands of PapaSmoak or an car shop accident. It could explain why its the type of wheelchair it is. It could also explain why he comes to TA for help since he is defenseless with his injuries.

 

Doing a paralyzed Roy story is better than a paralyzed FS story in my book since it would not be such a major part of the show.

[wonderwall]

Well the way they've been writing Laurel lately, it may never even occur to them to have anyone tell her ever.

 

Wait... Who's Laurel again??? (aka goals for said character because there's no fixing that, imo)

[Primal Slayer]

I would love some Laurel/Felicity bonding, hopefully it happens in 4b.

[way2interested]

Random thoughts -

 

Could Roy really be related to FS? Because I wonder if they could be secret relations thanks to PapaSmoak. That might be interesting. Part of me does sorta want PapaSmoak to have a secret family. I just don't want it to be BM.

 

Could Roy be the one in the Wheelchair? He could have encountered some type of injury at the hands of PapaSmoak or an car shop accident. It could explain why its the type of wheelchair it is. It could also explain why he comes to TA for help since he is defenseless with his injuries.

 

Doing a paralyzed Roy story is better than a paralyzed FS story in my book since it would not be such a major part of the show.

 

I would take anything over Felicity being paralyzed to be honest, as much as I love Roy. Paralyzing her would be putting way too much angst on Felicity's plate at this point, given Oliver's hiding his kid, Father returning, almost dying yet again (looking like twice in the span of one episode), not to mention DD still terrorizing the city. Even if the story seems to be heading in that direction, I'm still optimistically hoping against it. 

 

Roy seems to be more of a catalyst character re-appearing in one episode rather than having a reoccuring plot line. I would think that the writers would want to keep Roy alive and walking throughout the season to keep him in their character bank to reappear anytime they might want. As for Papa Smoak having a family, I could get behind it. It would really lay down the Papa Smoak/Oliver parallel, which is probably where the writers are going with this. I mean, The Calculator did have a son and daughter, so who knows?

[lemotomato]

My issues right now is more to do with how completely I don't trust the writers not to do bullshit things for the sake of doing bullshit things.  If Oliver would lie and keep Felicity in the dark about surprise kid which makes no 'effing sense, that opens up the door for just about anything. 

 

Maybe something in 4-9 or 4-10 will restore some faith, like if he does try to come clean, but at this moment I'm having Smallville flashbacks, back to the seasons when I was sure they would/could never turn Clark against Chloe but then Doomsday came along.  I agree that there has been no indication that Oliver would regress even further than he has but then I don't think there is anything that would have hinted that he would have lied in the first place.    

I'm with you in that I don't trust the writers at all. But I disagree that Oliver lying came out of nowhere. Yes, it felt like a sucker punch after he's shown so much maturity this season, but it's been 8 episodes (probably 6 months in-show time) of newly mature Oliver vs 3 seasons (a lifetime in-show) of really messed up Oliver. Since it's only mid-season 4, he's still got a ways to go before he figures everything out. He's going to screw up big sooner or later, and this looks like his first big mistake in the first relationship that he seems determined to preserve.

I hate that he lied to Felicity about something so important to him and that it's something that will affect her now that they're building a life together, but that is also not unprecedented. As someone pointed out in the Oliver thread, we're only about 6 months out from when he essentially lied to her about going undercover to take down the LoA and "killed" her. Is it annoying and repetitive that the first him he's under pressure and facing a huge personal challenge this season he resorts to lying? Yes. Is it surprising? To me, no.

The real question is how he's going to fix this mistake. Could it all go terribly wrong and he reverts to Ollie and Olicity gets blown up? With these writers, sure. If we start to see indications of the story going in this direction, I'll rage. But for now, given how much time they've spent showing that Oliver has grown up and matured, my inclination is to see this as just a relationship stall and maybe an attempt to take Olicity a step off the pedestal it's always been on. The EPs have said that Oliver's maturity is going to be tested. It looks like he failed the first test, and he's probably going to fail whatever happens next week too, but that's what I think 4B is going to be about. Him dealing with the usual second half season crap with a better foundation.

[wonderwall]

The real question is how he's going to fix this mistake. Could it all go terribly wrong and he reverts to Ollie and Olicity gets blown up? With these writers, sure. If we start to see indications of the story going in this direction, I'll rage. But for now, given how much time they've spent showing that Oliver has grown up and matured, my inclination is to see this as just a relationship stall and maybe an attempt to take Olicity a step off the pedestal it's always been on. The EPs have said that Oliver's maturity is going to be tested. It looks like he failed the first test, and he's probably going to fail whatever happens next week too, but that's what I think 4B is going to be about. Him dealing with the usual second half season crap with a better foundation.

 

Damn... I couldn't have put it better myself @lemotomato :) *high five*

 

Let's just hope that this is FINALLY when Oliver will learn to stop lying as his default reaction.

[statsgirl]

I would rather have a paralyzed Felicity story over a paralyzed Roy because she's such a strong person and disabilities are real.  It would also have more resonance not only to Oliver but to all the team's fighters.  There but for the grace of God.....

 

I don't think it will be Roy because MG said he's only on for one episode right now and it would be too cruel to paralyze him and then ship him off the show.

Plus: Felicity asked Oliver straight up what had him acting so strange in Central City, and he said "it doesn't matter, it's over". Well. It kinda really matters a whole lot, and it's not over.
 

But maybe Oliver really did think it was over.  He had decided what to do about the problem, namely see William and not tell anyone about him, and hope for the best in the long run (e.g. BM lets him tell people).  As a warrior, Oliver is good at seeing multiple steps down the road.  As someone trying to read people, he sucks.

[BkWurm1]

But that's the same moment that Oliver should want to stay away from the kid as much as BM wants him to, because it wouldn't be safe. And honestly, it would make Oliver look like a complete asshole and a terrible potential father. It would be ten times worse than the dirtbag behavior he exhibited pre-island. Do what I want or I'll expose our kid to a madman? Yikes.

It's not about Oliver actually ever dreaming of exposing the kid, it's about him being able to threaten it as a way to renegotiate the crazy regulations BM laid down if he ever wanted to know his kid. All it would have to be is "Ok, I'll stay away from William altogether until we agree it is safe but I won't keep him a secret from the person most important to me anymore."  It should be a pick your battle type of thing for the mom. 

 

Frankly, it feels like he should have been able to successfully make a threat to change the BM's condition even without there being a known danger about his life.  BM doesn't want William to know Oliver is his father, therefore all Oliver would have had to do when BM said you can't even tell your girlfriend is threaten to go tell William right that second the truth if she does't back off about not telling Felicity. 

 

Actually following through would be awful and not something Oliver would do but this is a woman than already assumes the worst about him to the point of lying for 10 years and having no plans on ever telling William (at least while he's a kid).  I know, I know, I'm still trying to make sense of this stupid storyline.  I keep wanting the characters to be smart.  It's too much to ask. 

 

But for now, given how much time they've spent showing that Oliver has grown up and matured, my inclination is to see this as just a relationship stall and maybe an attempt to take Olicity a step off the pedestal it's always been on. The EPs have said that Oliver's maturity is going to be tested. It looks like he failed the first test, and he's probably going to fail whatever happens next week too, but that's what I think 4B is going to be about. Him dealing with the usual second half season crap with a better foundation.

 

Ok, I'll try to hold out some hope.  I do feel a bit better about the writer's intentions after reading in the Ratings thread about how conscious WM said they all are about maintaining the season four ratings.  If they go too far, (at least too soon) I can't see how that could help with steady ratings long term this season. 

 

So maybe yes they are going to knock them around but maybe the show runner's keeping their eye on the ratings (apparently season four is a kind of indicator of it's future success and chances at getting many more seasons) will keep them from completely blowing things up into an unfixable state.  Of course what I think is fixable and what they might think is fixable isn't guaranteed to be at all similar. 

But maybe Oliver really did think it was over.  He had decided what to do about the problem, namely see William and not tell anyone about him, and hope for the best in the long run (e.g. BM lets him tell people).  As a warrior, Oliver is good at seeing multiple steps down the road.  As someone trying to read people, he sucks.

So stupidity as a defense?  Well, he certainly has shown signs of that before. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

It's not about Oliver actually ever dreaming of exposing the kid, it's about him being able to threaten it as a way to renegotiate the crazy regulations BM laid down if he ever wanted to know his kid. All it would have to be is "Ok, I'll stay away from William altogether until we agree it is safe but I won't keep him a secret from the person most important to me anymore."  It should be a pick your battle type of thing for the mom. 

 

Frankly, it feels like he should have been able to successfully make a threat to change the BM's condition even without there being a known danger about his life.  BM doesn't want William to know Oliver is his father, therefore all Oliver would have had to do when BM said you can't even tell your girlfriend is threaten to go tell William right that second the truth if she does't back off about not telling Felicity. 

 

Actually following through would be awful and not something Oliver would do but this is a woman than already assumes the worst about him to the point of lying for 10 years and having no plans on ever telling William (at least while he's a kid).  I know, I know, I'm still trying to make sense of this stupid storyline.  I keep wanting the characters to be smart.  It's too much to ask. 

 

I know Oliver would never follow through, but it's still a completely shitty empty threat. BM asked Oliver to agree to a condition that would be to the detriment of his personal life, but she didn't do anything that made him think the kid's safety was in danger. It especially doesn't make sense that he'd do that considering he wanted to convince BM that he was a changed person. This would make him look like an even bigger asshole than she probably thought he was. Not to mention that reaching out to her is the very last thing he should be doing with DD going after him personally. He should want to cut off any and all communication on the off chance that someone would follow it. 

 

I agree that he should've threatened her with telling William he's his father from the get-go, but Oliver is a moron. It would make sense if Oliver told Felicity about the kid after the attacks so that she could help Oliver make sure that DD stayed away from him (set up alerts on his name, something), but he won't do that, either, because drama.

Edited December 6, 2015 by apinknightmare

[lemotomato]

Damn... I couldn't have put it better myself @lemotomato :) *high five*

 

Let's just hope that this is FINALLY when Oliver will learn to stop lying as his default reaction.

  

Your metas are always a great read, so I'm glad that we're on the same (rather small ATM) boat on this. ::high five:: (But we should probably put on life jackets, just in case)

So stupidity as a defense?  Well, he certainly has shown signs of that before.

With the exception of this season, Oliver has always been a complete and utter idiot about how to handle emotions, his own and others. Honestly, in nearly every situation that requires consideration for someone's feelings, he picks the opposite of what a normal person would do. There's a reason his nickname in some parts of tumblr is "big dumb pine tree"

[Angel12d]

My rage has settled now. I think what I'm most annoyed about is how contrived it all is, simply to create drama down the line. Not that Oliver lying came out of nowhere - it didn't - but that we've had the 'Oliver lies and keep secrets' storyline for 4 years running now. I'm BORED. 

 

And it bugs me that Olicity gets blamed for this when really they're not the problem. The bullshit lie is. And Samantha but she's not even worth talking about. She's just a lame plot point/caricature of a real person.

 

I do think there's a way to turn this around. I don't expect any couple to be perfect anyway. Cheating is the only way I will ever stop shipping any couple so this is redeemable. I can kind of see both sides here too, especially now that I've had time to think about it. Felicity should have given Oliver time to process in that first timeline (and maybe not have been so desperate to find out what he was keeping from her, although she doesn't like mysteries and they bug her so I can kinda see why she did it) and Oliver never should have lied and continued to lie. Both of them have some growing to do. Oliver more so at this point because it's just the most unnecessary lie to keep from the woman you love and want to marry but this is what happens when we're dealing with Arrow writers. As long as we do see some growth here at some point, I'm willing to stick this out. 

 

 

Actually, Laurel's reaction is the only thing that I'm kind of interested about in this shitty storyline.  They probably won't spend any time on her reaction.  But the Laurel stuff has been so weird this season...she seems to have less to do than Roy now that Sara's back and gone again.  She's such an afterthought again.

 

I honestly think they're keeping her role as minimal as possible because she's less polarizing that way. You can't hate on someone who has barely done anything. It's a clever tactic. I see what they're doing.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Angel12d

[calliope1975]

My rage has settled now. I think what I'm most annoyed about is how contrived it all is, simply to create drama down the line. Not that Oliver lying came out of nowhere - it didn't - but that we've had the 'Oliver lies and keep secrets' storyline for 4 years running now. I'm BORED. 

 

Now I've entered rage fatigue. Honestly, I think my biggest problem is that while I survived the garbage of S3, my tolerance level is now rock bottom with this show. Plus, I was lured into the false sense of hey, these writers learned something from last year for 7 episodes. Boy, was I wrong.

 

I don't know if I can last for another season of contrivance. 

[wonderwall]

I don't know if I can last for another season of contrivance. 

 

This is why not watching the episode live and fast forwarding is your friend :p That's what I'm doing. This season I'm here for Felicity and Diggle. I'm not going to let them take that away from me. 

[wonderwall]

I agree with Laura Hurley on her proposal stance:

 

What do think about Oliver's (probable) proposal with the secret hanging over their heads?

I’m a big proponent of not freaking out about television twists until I know the context of what might or might not happen, so what I can say right now is that I hope that Oliver either comes clean beforehand or has a decent reason for not doing so.

 

If he proposes without telling the truth, I want it to be in the heat of a moment because he suddenly just has to propose because he just loves her too much to not want to take another step toward forever with her as soon as possible. He’s a total sap. It could happen.

If it’s something planned a la the thwarted souffle proposal, I’ll be pretty mad at Oliver and the writers.

Edited December 6, 2015 by wonderwall

[Angel12d]

I agree with Laura Hurley on her proposal stance:

 

Yep. The only way I'll stomach/accept a proposal in 409 is if it's a result of Oliver just being so happy and relieved that Felicity is alive, which would make sense considering it looks like he sees her nearly gassed to death first. I definitely see it as a 'throw caution to the wind' emotional moment. I hope so.

[statsgirl]

And it bugs me that Olicity gets blamed for this when really they're not the problem. The bullshit lie is. And Samantha but she's not even worth talking about. She's just a lame plot point/caricature of a real person.

 

As with most shows (including Moonlighting), it's not the relationship that's the problem, it's the need to stall the relationship that is.

Now I've entered rage fatigue. Honestly, I think my biggest problem is that while I survived the garbage of S3, my tolerance level is now rock bottom with this show. Plus, I was lured into the false sense of hey, these writers learned something from last year for 7 episodes. Boy, was I wrong.

 

I don't know if I can last for another season of contrivance. 

THIS.  I think it can be saved, that they can use it to finally make Oliver understand that he can't keep secrets from his partners (including Diggle and Thea) after 3 1/2 long years of stupidity.  They can use it to propel Felicity to some sort of mask equivalence where she realizes that she's strong and doesn't need anyone else (not Ray, not Oliver) to fight her battles for her.

 

But all the garbage they pulled in s3 to get to their end point, and the quick fixes between Oliver and Laurel, Thea and Ray, and especially between Oliver and Felicity, has worn my patience carbon copy thin.

[calliope1975]

That's how I see it happening as well. Near death scare, spur of the moment proposal, hey I have something important to tell you, crash, continuing lie for 2 to 5 episodes, lie is exposed, but I wanted to tell you - there just wasn't a good time, break-up.

 

I think it's only the continuing lie part that's really going to piss me off. It's going to take some really good, nuanced writing to make me get over it, and well, haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, yeah that's not going to happen. I'm also unsure what's going to happen after the break-up.

[kes0704]

I honestly think they're keeping her role as minimal as possible because she's less polarizing that way. You can't hate on someone who has barely done anything. It's a clever tactic. I see what they're doing.

This in relation to Laurel made me laugh that BM has essentially become Laurel 2.0 in terms of sucky introductions to the audience. As with Laurel, the way they thought they were writing BM was as a strong, brave woman who was protecting her child at all costs...and what the audience thought was "unreasonable b*tch". Introductions count, and they must be tone deaf to get this sort of thing wrong so often - let the constant attempts to rehab the character begin.

Also, I'm sure at some point SA, when asked, said he never met the BM actress on her first appearance in S2 because he wasn't on set the day her scene was done. So, if my memory is correct then that would indicate no chemistry test before casting? If the plan was always to have BM be 'real part of the show' as is per AK interview (whatever that may mean) then shouldn't they have learned that introducing a female character by having them open to the perception of being mean to Oliver (and, now, by extension Felicity) is the wrong way to go. They still have Exhibit A - Laurel as a constant reminder of how it can all go so terribly wrong.

Edited December 6, 2015 by kes0704

[Soulfire]

5 second long preview clip showing that Thea and Diggle also get taken by Damien Darhk --

 

https://twitter.com/sharona_v7/status/673590623727915009