BkWurm1 October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Assuming Nyssa makes it out alive (mental note, find wood, knock on it) perhaps why she's not around while they deal with the aftermath of Sara's return is because to Nyssa, that thing brought back will never be Sara to her. The anguish of having a loved one look at you and always be repelled is a big enough burden. They don't have to heap the pain on Sara by making her the cause of Nyssas death. Just Nyssa utterly rejecting her (and Sara always left to wonder if she's right about her being a monstrous copy) that would be angst enough IMO. 8 Link to comment
apinknightmare October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Why do they do this? So many people telling Laurel she's wrong, and Laurel is admitting she's being reckless,and...why couldn't they just have had Rip Hunter bring her back, then have some weird storyline where Sara shows up, and everyone's trying to figure out how it happened/if she's real. 8 Link to comment
looptab October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Because Laurel NEVER GIVES UP/NEVER GIVES UP HOPE or whatever 2 Link to comment
EmilyBettFan October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I can't believe how selfish she sounds in that new clip. Why am I surprised though? Link to comment
AyChihuahua October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Why do they do this? So many people telling Laurel she's wrong, and Laurel is admitting she's being reckless,and...why couldn't they just have had Rip Hunter bring her back, then have some weird storyline where Sara shows up, and everyone's trying to figure out how it happened/if she's real. That is why I sometimes think the writers really do hate Laurel, because while they have had moments of screwing up most other characters, they have consistently done terrible things with Laurel. If they just really wanted Laurel to be the one to bring her back for whatever reason, they still could have done it in a way that didn't make Laurel come across as a moronic reckless nutjob. I just do not understand. It makes me feel kind of bad for KC, because while I think she's a weak actress, this crap writing is not her fault. I think a much better actress would improve the character, but I'm not sure Meryl Streep could fix the character. 4 Link to comment
Hipkarma October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Reading about this preview clip just makes me more comfortable in my choice to not watch anymore. I abhor Laurel Lance as written and interpreted by Katie Cassidy. I watch little TV and when I do, it's to enjoy and inform. Nothing about that character has been enjoyable for me and now her continued presence in Team Arrow infects scenes which previously ameliorated my desire to reach through the screen and excise the canker. I am glad though that Nyssa seems to be the Greek Chorus in this. Someone needed to speak for many in the audience. Or not in my case. I'm with John Campea, I may return if they kill Laurel off. Link to comment
Happy Harpy October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I don't know why, but I'm with you on the I don't think they will kill Nyssa. I used to think they would, but now I feel they will keep her alive and just ship her off to a mountain somewhere. There is little they can gain beyond a quick gotcha moment if they kill her. The emotions will resonate with the characters & the audience - but they also would have killed off one of their best grey female characters. The cost of her death for a quick twist will definitely outweigh the benefits/ I feel like bringing back SL will push Nyssa over the edge though and make her want to be more of a bad guy again. I think she will leave the show to find clarity on a mountain somwhere and the next time we see her she will be coming after LL, MM & TA. I actually think the story potential is so much greater to keep her alive, that the writers will avoid killing her despite their inner desire to get the big emotional death. I would love this scenario. But I have to admit that no filming for Katrina Law since 4x03 and the discussions here give me huge déjà-vu of September 2014, when we were speculating that they wouldn't kill Sara, they wouldn't be that stupid, she'd be back later in the season, it would be terrible for Laurel etc. There's another factor that might count as flag for Nyssa's death, unfortunately. In doubt, I will use spoiler bars in this thread because it's a spoiler for LoT and not Arrow; but I post it here because it would affect Nyssa, a character of Arrow. It seems they're going to pair Ray and Sara on LoT, a producer confirmed it from what I've read. I could 100% see the writers sink the Sara/Nyssa pairing through Nyssa's death, in order to suppress any obstacle in the way of what they want for one of their pet characters; and I think that S3 of Arrow showed that Ray is one of them. Sara herself is a precedent of that tendency. Nyssa becoming 100% Evulz also works, but it might not be enough. 1 Link to comment
Chaser October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I am curious about how they write this. We know that things go sideways. We know that because of the severe side effects that Sara experiences no one else will want to use the LP in the future (and it will explain why it wasn't used previously). We also know that Laurel finds closure with Sara before Sara leaves and her and Oliver are on better terms after 4x05. Basically, Laurel moves forward in a 'positive' place. We also know that Sara will struggle with regaining her humanity on LOT, that it's an ongoing fight. So from what I'm understanding, Laurel does something ill-advised and there are consequences for her actions. But those consequences include her having her family back and having better relationships with the people in her life? Sounds like Sara is going to be the one really dealing the negatives, since hers last behind a few episodes. I don't understand this at all. I almost want to say Lance has to die as a consequence so that something will stick with Laurel. 4 Link to comment
hogwash October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I'm getting deja vu to S01's finale. Is Moira's ghost gonna warn her next? 3 Link to comment
Proteus October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I would love this scenario. But I have to admit that no filming for Katrina Law since 4x03 and the discussions here give me huge déjà-vu of September 2014, when we were speculating that they wouldn't kill Sara, they wouldn't be that stupid, she'd be back later in the season, it would be terrible for Laurel etc. There's another factor that might count as flag for Nyssa's death, unfortunately. In doubt, I will use spoiler bars in this thread because it's a spoiler for LoT and not Arrow; but I post it here because it would affect Nyssa, a character of Arrow. It seems they're going to pair Ray and Sara on LoT, a producer confirmed it from what I've read. I could 100% see the writers sink the Sara/Nyssa pairing through Nyssa's death, in order to suppress any obstacle in the way of what they want for one of their pet characters; and I think that S3 of Arrow showed that Ray is one of them. Sara herself is a precedent of that tendency. Nyssa becoming 100% Evulz also works, but it might not be enough. No one confirmed that. 1 Link to comment
statsgirl October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I would love it if Moira's ghost came back to warn her not to do it. So from what I'm understanding, Laurel does something ill-advised and there are consequences for her actions. But those consequences include her having her family back and having better relationships with the people in her life? Sounds like Sara is going to be the one really dealing the negatives, since hers last behind a few episodes. This is a big problem with the writing for Laurel because unless you 100% love her and maybe even if you do, you're going to want to see her go through consequences for ill-advised actions. And it provides good storylines -- just look at Moira/Oliver or Oliver/Diggle. I know there were consequences for not telling Quentin about Sara's death, but as has been said other people bore consequences not just Laurel (e.g. Oliver, Felicity and even the cops who got killed because Quentin wouldn't answer the phone). WM saying that Laurel will stand beside her sister makes it sound like any consequences for Laurel for digging up the grave, making Thea go back to Nanda Parbat, lying to everyone and most of all pitting Sara, are going to be minor. I can understand breaking up Sara and Nyssa so that Sara is free to get an exciting new love interest on LoT but not but which would tie up both characters. Also, too close to the sister swapping since Oliver slept with Sara and Felicity with Ray before. 1 Link to comment
kismet October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I can't help but wonder if they are surprised by the backlash. They can't have written it this way intending for people to be disgusted. They must have thought we would empathize and support it somehow. I feel like the writers will assume that people are raging against the storyline simply because of LL. Which I don't think is the case for everyone. At least for me personally, my hatred of the storyline is not just because LL is doing it. It's because anyone who chooses to do what she did without talking it over and really understanding it from different angles is extremely self-absorbed and selfish. And I can't tolerate stories like that when its so simple for them to not write the most extreme or thoughtless decision. Anyone of the main "good" cast could have dug LL up the way they did and my hatred level of the storyline would be the same. One of the biggest problem as we all have been addressing, is this moment, decision & most likely the lack of consequences to LL is "so LL" that the cumulative effect of her decisions have finally made me hate her character. But the writers won't see that they wrote a horrible storyline & character moment for LL, they'll just take any constructive criticism as hate or backlash for LL. It's similar to last year when Ray was doing shady things that I disliked and the writers assumed that the only reasons I hated Ray was because I wanted O/F together. The writers cannot differentiate valid constructive criticism from unfiltered hatred, even when explained to them in simple & clear points. They just assume its all the same. So I totally see them missing the point of why people are upset with LL's resurrection of SL. They will lampshade it in future scripts because that is how they acknowledge and process it. But it won't make one iota of difference in how they actually move forward with LL, the story or future characters/plots - and that is the most frustrating part.. 11 Link to comment
Chaser October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I would love it if Moira's ghost came back to warn her not to do it. This is a big problem with the writing for Laurel because unless you 100% love her and maybe even if you do, you're going to want to see her go through consequences for ill-advised actions. And it provides good storylines -- just look at Moira/Oliver or Oliver/Diggle. I know there were consequences for not telling Quentin about Sara's death, but as has been said other people bore consequences not just Laurel (e.g. Oliver, Felicity and even the cops who got killed because Quentin wouldn't answer the phone). WM saying that Laurel will stand beside her sister makes it sound like any consequences for Laurel for digging up the grave, making Thea go back to Nanda Parbat, lying to everyone and most of all pitting Sara, are going to be minor. I can understand breaking up Sara and Nyssa so that Sara is free to get an exciting new love interest on LoT but not but which would tie up both characters. Also, too close to the sister swapping since Oliver slept with Sara and Felicity with Ray before. The spoiler portion made me laugh. Oliver Queen is the dirty Kevin Bacon. I just don't understand the mixed messages with this storyline. The consequenes are so bad for using the LP! Poor Sara and her no humanity! The show is going to suffer a loss that the LP can't fix because it's just so bad! Oh and Laurel is going to have a positive outcome. Yeah. Sounds super terrible. 4 Link to comment
Velocity23 October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 John Barrowman interview with TV Line: Arrow's John Barrowman Previews Malcolm's 'Bizarre' Dilemma and a 'Jaw-Dropping' Twist in Nanda Parbat http://tvline.com/2015/10/20/arrow-season-4-preview-john-barrowman-sara-lazarus-pit/ Link to comment
Happy Harpy October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 No one confirmed that. I'm not following LoT since I don't plan to watch, but good! It's one flag less for Nyssa, imo. Link to comment
apinknightmare October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 (edited) That JB interview doesn't give me the fuzzies. NYSSSSSSSSAAAAAAA Edited October 20, 2015 by apinknightmare Link to comment
Morrigan2575 October 20, 2015 Author Share October 20, 2015 I'm not following LoT since I don't plan to watch, but good! It's one flag less for Nyssa, imo. Not sure if this needs a spoiler tag but it's a spoiler about LoT not Arrow so I'll put it behind there. From what I've heard/read the EP made a comment at NYCC He was asked about Sara/Ray romance and his answer was something to the effect of people being in tight spaces on a time traveling space ship going through life and death situations and things are bound to happen 1 Link to comment
dtissagirl October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Ugh, Malcolm. WHY ARE YOU STILL HAPPENING? 2 Link to comment
Starfish35 October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 (edited) From the interview: Malcolm has said before that when somebody goes into the Pit, a piece of everybody’s soul who has been in there prior goes into that person. When did he say this? I don't remember that. Beyond that, yeah, that didn't make me feel any better about Nyssa's survival chances. And what is Malcolm going to do to Thea now? :( Edited October 20, 2015 by Starfish35 3 Link to comment
BkWurm1 October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 John Barrowman interview with TV Line: Arrow's John Barrowman Previews Malcolm's 'Bizarre' Dilemma and a 'Jaw-Dropping' Twist in Nanda Parbat http://tvline.com/2015/10/20/arrow-season-4-preview-john-barrowman-sara-lazarus-pit/ As forArrow-Sara-Dead the whole Sara thing: Unlike when Thea went into the Pit freshly dead, Sara… has seen better days. Do we turn the Pit to “11”? [Laughs] I think it goes up to “55.” Yeah, that’s a little bit more of a “risk,” shall we say. Malcolm has said before that when somebody goes into the Pit, a piece of everybody’s soul who has been in there prior goes into that person. Well, Sara’s going to need a lot more than just a piece of everyone’s soul. It’s going to need to fill her a lot more than it did Thea, so Malcolm is very intrigued by how she might come out. But would he want her to come back when he got rid of her in the first place? Um, no, Malcolm never was given a chance to say that on the show before and really, it would have been good information to have. It sounds like Malcolm is going to let Laurel do it just to see what happens. 5 Link to comment
AyChihuahua October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 (edited) When did he say this? I don't remember that. No one has ever said that. I'm quite sure we'd remember something like that. "Yeah, that’s a little bit more of a “risk,” shall we say. Malcolm has said before that when somebody goes into the Pit, a piece of everybody’s soul who has been in there prior goes into that person. Well, Sara’s going to need a lot more than just a piece of everyone’s soul. It’s going to need to fill her a lot more than it did Thea, so Malcolm is very intrigued by how she might come out. But would he want her to come back when he got rid of her in the first place? God this show is so dumb. Keeping Malcolm as a regular truly shows how dumb. WHY CAN'T I QUIT YOU, YOU DUMB SHOW?!? Edited October 20, 2015 by AyChihuahua 1 Link to comment
apinknightmare October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 (edited) No one has ever said that. I'm quite sure we'd remember something like that. Maybe it's something they filmed but cut, and JB doesn't know? Edited October 20, 2015 by apinknightmare 2 Link to comment
bijoux October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Um, no, Malcolm never was given a chance to say that on the show before and really, it would have been good information to have. It sounds like Malcolm is going to let Laurel do it just to see what happens.Honestly, I have no problem with Malcolm doing it for shits and giggles. It makes sense for his character. If in turn the pit dries up and he's robbed of the chance to prolong his life, so much the better. 14 Link to comment
apinknightmare October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I would actually love it if he allowed Sara to take a dip just for shiggles. 4 Link to comment
Angel12d October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Ugh, Malcolm. Not saying she is, just speculating here, but if Nyssa dies I can't see how Laurel reaches a more positive place with both Sara and Oliver when she's responsible for Nyssa's death. Nu-uh. Nope. Sorry, my brain stumbled on a possible Ray/Sara romance on LoT. Why are they doing that to Sara? HASN'T SHE BEEN THROUGH ENOUGH?! Poor thing. 3 Link to comment
AyChihuahua October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Maybe it's something they filmed but cut, and JB doesn't know? So he just doesn't watch his own show? That seems totally crazy to me. That interview also makes me think Malcolm appreciates Thea's new bloodlust and doesn't want to fix her. That would be pretty in keeping with what an utter piece of shit Malcolm is, which is why OLIVER NEEDS TO JUST FRIGGING KILL HIM ALREADY, JFC! 1 Link to comment
looptab October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I think JB just let out new info about how the Pit works, info included in the next episode/s. 1 Link to comment
AyChihuahua October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Y'all realize that if a piece of each prior Dippee's soul goes into the person that some RAG is in Thea, and some RAG and Malcolm (I'm guessing he's taken at least one soak since he attained his RAGdom) will be in Sara, right? 1 Link to comment
Balaclava October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Y'all realize that if a piece of each prior Dippee's soul goes into the person that some RAG is in Thea, and some RAG and Malcolm (I'm guessing he's taken at least one soak since he attained his RAGdom) will be in Sara, right? Will also some Thea be in Sara? 2 Link to comment
bethy October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I don't watch spoilers closely, so I don't know if this is a possibility, but what if Laurel actually has second thoughts, and Malcolm LPs Sara behind Laurel's back? Link to comment
apinknightmare October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 So he just doesn't watch his own show? That seems totally crazy to me. I think it depends on which cut he watches? Stephen has mentioned scenes being in an ep that weren't- probably because he watched the network cut, but those scenes were cut for broadcast. 5 Link to comment
catrox14 October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 So he just doesn't watch his own show? That seems totally crazy to me. That interview also makes me think Malcolm appreciates Thea's new bloodlust and doesn't want to fix her. That would be pretty in keeping with what an utter piece of shit Malcolm is, which is why OLIVER NEEDS TO JUST FRIGGING KILL HIM ALREADY, JFC! Plenty of actors don't watch their own shows until well after they air or follow the mythology as closely as we do. Of course JB is kind of a blabbermouth so maybe that is something we learn in this episode and he just spoiled it. 4 Link to comment
calliope1975 October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 "Yeah, that’s a little bit more of a “risk,” shall we say. Malcolm has said before that when somebody goes into the Pit, a piece of everybody’s soul who has been in there prior goes into that person. This sounds dumb, so right on par for this show. I feel like they just made this up a few weeks ago. What about the first person to use the LP? Are people too full of souls or a bunch of fractured souls? Like Freddy Krueger? Anyway, yeah, dumb. 3 Link to comment
quarks October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I AM SO EXCITED EVERYONE BECAUSE YOU KNOW WHO ELSE WAS PROBABLY IN THE PIT BRUCE WAYNE AND THAT MEANS THAT SARA IS NOW BATMAN! (What?) 24 Link to comment
Angel12d October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I don't watch spoilers closely, so I don't know if this is a possibility, but what if Laurel actually has second thoughts, and Malcolm LPs Sara behind Laurel's back? That might be the twist they're talking about, although that's hardly 'jaw-dropping' IMO. It would be better for Laurel if that happened though. But the episode description for 404 kind of makes it sound like Laurel has to deal with the fallout of her actions so I'm not sure. Link to comment
apinknightmare October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Laurel also seems pretty adamant about what she's doing, so I'm not sure exactly what would change her mind at this point. Link to comment
catrox14 October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 This sounds dumb, so right on par for this show. I feel like they just made this up a few weeks ago. What about the first person to use the LP? Are people too full of souls or a bunch of fractured souls? Like Freddy Krueger? Anyway, yeah, dumb. This would explain why Constantine is becoming involved. Laurel also seems pretty adamant about what she's doing, so I'm not sure exactly what would change her mind at this point. If she had to swap her soul for Sara's. I don't think she would do it. Like at all. 2 Link to comment
calliope1975 October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I would actually love it if he allowed Sara to take a dip just for shiggles. If Laurel changed her mind, but then MM tossed her in for funsies, it would go a long way for me to not hate Laurel. 2 Link to comment
Happy Harpy October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Well, Sara’s going to need a lot more than just a piece of everyone’s soul. I can't help but think that she's going to need a lot of tissues and body parts, too, considering she's a freaking mummy. I don't watch spoilers closely, so I don't know if this is a possibility, but what if Laurel actually has second thoughts, and Malcolm LPs Sara behind Laurel's back? It seems difficult, considering the spoilerific promos -Laurel is there, and seems to wait, free of her moves- but I hope it can somehow happen. 2 Link to comment
bethy October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 The consequences of her actions could be that she dug up her sister and hauled her corpse to Nanda Parbat at all. I mean, Laurel would have set it all in motion. That would make this whole thing a LOT easier for me to deal with. If Laurel listens to Nyssa and changes her mind about pitting Sara, that would go a long way toward starting the redemptive journey for Laurel in my eyes. 3 Link to comment
foreverevolving October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 (edited) I just can't with those Twitter comments.. I mean the ones that are supporting Laurel. I can't anymore. I'm actually considering killing off my twitter account. I freakin hate Twitter!! Edited October 20, 2015 by foreverevolving 1 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 October 20, 2015 Author Share October 20, 2015 (edited) Duplicate post Edited October 20, 2015 by Morrigan2575 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 October 20, 2015 Author Share October 20, 2015 (edited) From the interview: When did he say this? I don't remember that. Beyond that, yeah, that didn't make me feel any better about Nyssa's survival chances. And what is Malcolm going to do to Thea now? :( Closest I could find, which isn't really much. Which this wouldn't. The waters change a person. In the soul. Even if they work, the Thea you get back will not be the one you lost. Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=17934 Edited October 20, 2015 by Morrigan2575 Link to comment
lemotomato October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I just can't with those Twitter comments.. I mean the ones that are supporting Laurel. I can't anymore. I'm actually considering killing off my twitter account. I freakin hate Twitter!! I recommend liberal use of the "block user" button. I almost had to give up browsing tumblr and Twitter on my phone (because filters don't work as well on mobile, for some reason) until I found all the block options. 1 Link to comment
AyChihuahua October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I swear to god, the waters "change a person. In the soul," makes me want to punch someone. This show is so dumb, but you guys are so funny, you continue to save my Arrow-watching self. In the soul. 1 Link to comment
Proteus October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 (edited) Question. Why is everyone so angry at Laurel? Everyone wanted Sara back and now she's coming back. Would all the anger be directed at any other character other than Laurel? I'm not even a Laurel fan, in fact I've always disliked her, and I really don't get the Laurel hate over this Sara issue. Yeah, she is coming off reckless to get her sister back. But so what? Didn't most people want Sara back and resented Laurel for her being killed off so she could be Black Canary? Edited October 20, 2015 by Proteus Link to comment
Starfish35 October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 I don't watch spoilers closely, so I don't know if this is a possibility, but what if Laurel actually has second thoughts, and Malcolm LPs Sara behind Laurel's back? In the promo, it looks like Thea and Laurel are the ones lowering her into the pit. Link to comment
Angel12d October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Question. Why is everyone so angry at Laurel? Everyone wanted Sara back and now she's coming back. Would all the anger be directed at any other character other than Laurel? I'm not even a Laurel fan, in fact I've always disliked her, and I really don't get the Laurel hate over this Sara issue. Yeah, she is coming off reckless to get her sister back. But so what? Didn't most people want Sara back and resented Laurel for her being killed off so she could be Black Canary? I can't speak for anyone else but for me personally, I just hate the way it's being handled. I have no issues with Laurel wanting her sister back. Perfectly human reaction, tbh. I just don't like how she's not really thinking of Sara in all of this. She's thinking of herself. And the way she dragged Thea into the mess after she lied about taking her to the spa just made it worse, IMO. 12 Link to comment
dtissagirl October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Question. Why is everyone so angry at Laurel? Everyone wanted Sara back and now she's coming back. Would all the anger be directed at any other character other than Laurel? I'm not even a Laurel fan, in fact I've always disliked her, and I really don't get the Laurel hate over this Sara issue. Yeah, she is coming off reckless to get her sister back. But so what? Didn't most people want Sara back and resented Laurel for her being killed off so she could be Black Canary? The Laurel thread and the 402 episode thread have explanations aplenty on people's feelings towards Laurel. You should take a look. :) 8 Link to comment
calliope1975 October 20, 2015 Share October 20, 2015 Question. Why is everyone so angry at Laurel? Everyone wanted Sara back and now she's coming back. Would all the anger be directed at any other character other than Laurel? I'm not even a Laurel fan, in fact I've always disliked her, and I really don't get the Laurel hate over this Sara issue. Yeah, she is coming off reckless to get her sister back. But so what? Didn't most people want Sara back and resented Laurel for her being killed off so she could be Black Canary? For me, it's the way it's being done and the disconnect from the show telling me Laurel is bravestrongloveswithherwholeheart (#carlycorinthos) and what I see on my screen which is a really selfish, insufferable character. There were a hundred ways to get Sara back, and this is the one they chose. I've been clear that the end of S2 was the end of my ever caring what happens to Laurel, but I don't actually like hating a character on a show I genuinely and generally love. I can FF'd her scenes when they don't involve plot lines I'm interested in, but the spoilers indicate Laurel is going to have a larger presence on the show. I think this is a shitty thing to do to a beloved family member, but mostly, it's the (presumed) lack of consequences that annoy me the most. 13 Link to comment
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