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Spoiler Discussion Thread

Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

Challenge accepted.

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Guest

Guest

Does she only ever get to show up in crossovers? Because I can live with that.

 

I hope so. But the repercussions are gonna be felt on Arrow. 

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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

(edited)

Right, and if he's meeting the kid, rather than just looking on from afar, then--1) what an insanely huge thing to happen to Oliver on a show that is NOT Arrow, and 2) they will certainly come to SC after this. Not permanently, maybe, but obviously the Oliver is a Daddy storyline is happening. It's not just gonna be a little chuck on the shoulder and see ya in a year situation. UGH I hate kids on action shows.

 

Also, now that we do know this is happening, and we know that there is talk of kids in the premiere, I have a suspicion that Felicity doesn't want kids, or is unsure if she does, or at least doesn't want them anytime soon. I've been thinking about how they could do organic conflict between O/F, and honestly they're so good for each other that there aren't a lot of obvious avenues, except that they could be at different stages of readiness as far as settling down and starting a family (two different things). We know the first is true--Oliver is happy with his quiet life and doesn't want back in the Arrow life, and Felicity isn't and she does. I won't be at all surprised if we learn that the second part is true as well, and that it puts some distance between them.

Edited by Carrie Ann
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Guest

Guest

I'm fine with some conflict between O/F regarding the subject of kids. It certainly feels more organic than a contrived love triangle nonsense. Plus I always kind of thought that having kids was a topic Felicity hadn't really thought about? I don't know. But I remember EBR saying something about Felicity loving Oliver's child (anyone else remember this?) so I'm a bit cautious about how they're going to approach this from Felicity's side.

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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

She's a little young and early in the relationship to be thinking about kids, plus new CEO gig and all.  He on the other hand is 30 and ready to go.  That would be a pretty typical thing in a relationship, that one is ready for the next step and the other isn't quite there.  Unless they manufacture angst out of it, it should be fine.  

 

Oh wait, we're all screwed.  These EPs are the emperors of manufactured angst.

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Guest

Guest

Man, this kid stuff kills all my excited buzz. That's just not a story line I'll ever be interested in. 

 

Same. My excitement level just took a nosedive. *Tries to think happy thoughts of Olicity in bed tomorrow*

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Chasity

Chasity

(edited)

I'm fine with some conflict between O/F regarding the subject of kids. It certainly feels more organic than a contrived love triangle nonsense. Plus I always kind of thought that having kids was a topic Felicity hadn't really thought about? I don't know. But I remember EBR saying something about Felicity loving Oliver's child (anyone else remember this?) so I'm a bit cautious about how they're going to approach this from Felicity's side.

I remember EBR saying that as well. She said it at that Paris con. 

 

ETA: Here's what she said about the kid reveal: 

- How is Felicity gonna react when Connor - "I don't believe that Felicity will be upset with the fact that there's a kid now."

- Felicity will be upset that there's another secret in his life

- Felicity would be hurt cuz she's supposed to be the one he loves and who knows everything about him and boom! Another secret.

- Emily thinks she would be hurt, but also would be a brilliant mother

 

Edited by Chasity
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Soulfire

Soulfire

(edited)

While I don't want it, I can see them playing the classic storyline of Felicity taking a step back and putting her and Oliver on pause by her volition, to give him time and space to think about and sort out what he wants in his life, whom, and how he's going to make it work while also balancing being Green Arrow and his political aspirations. Regardless if Oliver and Felicity are put on pause or not, I do believe the two of them will only come back together stronger. 

 

Sigh. Couldn't you have waited til the second half of the season, Arrow? Not looking forward to the Legends build-up and now this storyline being introduced before the mid-season finale. 

Edited by Soulfire
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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

Man, this kid stuff kills all my excited buzz. That's just not a story line I'll ever be interested in. 

 

Ditto.

 

I'd be fine with the kids thing being a problem for O/F in general, because I would believe anything about Felicity's feelings as far as kids are concerned. And yeah, there are five years (or...whatever) between her and Oliver. Pretty big years. Even if she did want them, I wouldn't expect someone of her age and career situation to be ready for kids right now. I'd put it five years out, if I had to guess. So! While I would certainly not enjoy seeing O/F having angst about it, it would be believable if done right, and that's all I ask.

 

But the CC Kid is never going to be interesting or appealing to me at all. It involves two characters the audience has no emotional investment in; even their backstory is, like, negligible in terms of Oliver's character. She was a blip on the radar for him, in a string of girls he cheated on Laurel with, and maybe he felt sad for a few weeks after he thought she miscarried, but it's not like this was formative in his life. He went on to continue cheating afterward. It's just...ugh.

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Genki

Genki

(edited)

I'm not anti-kid storyline, I'm interested in the impact on Oliver & Felicity, plus the initial meets, but I hope the kid storyline is similar to how it was on Nikita, introduced reoccurs for emotional stakes and kept mainly in off-screenville. When do you bring out a "bastard-child" reveal.?..during political storylines, so I'm not surprised they are doing it this season.

 

I'm interested in Diggle's darker path, I think, besides the secrets & lies with TA, it might also raise some interesting points between him and Lyla, since she has operated for years in the Argus Grey zone and that has been their main source of contention. Also it's probably why O/D conflict isn't resolved immediately, with Dig not happy with Oliver he will be more prone to keeping things away from him and TA.

 

For some reason I'm giving them the benefit of doubt this year, inspite of S3....haha I don't know why!!

Edited by Genki
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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

I hope seeing Oliver Jr. doesn't get Oliver's baby hormones all glowing and suddenly he wants to push Felicity into having one.  For once, I'd be okay with having Oliver broody and worrying about whether he can keep the people he loves safe.

 Sigh. Couldn't you have waited til the second half of the season, Arrow? Not looking forward to the Legends build-up and now this storyline being introduced before the mid-season finale. 

Could this be ep 4x10?  They're filming out of order.

 

Shorts!  They're wearing shorts!  it makes me want to be on the warm BC coast.

Edited by statsgirl
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Guest

Guest

(edited)

It could be that Felicity does want kids, just not yet. She's only 25 and she's just inherited the position of CEO of a huge company, one that is in financial trouble. Thinking about babies is probably the last thing on her mind. Oliver, however, has probably been picturing having kids with Felicity since he saw baby Sara at the hospital in 301 and he's built the idea of it in his head that whole time. So this is all organic conflict. I approve of that.

 

I just have no interest in seeing Oliver's kid at all. None. I'm just not invested in that because kids on this kind of show is a bad thing, IMO. So this whole thing makes me wary. 

Edited by Guest
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calliope1975

calliope1975

I just have no interest in seeing Oliver's kid at all. None. I'm just not invested in that because kids on this kind of show is a bad thing, IMO. So this whole thing makes me wary. 

 

It's my previous experience watching shows where a surprise kid was introduced that is making me wary and weary. It's rarely handled well, and usually only serves to irritate me, and most child actors are iffy, at best. Plus, TPTB aren't known for their organic, stellar story telling. On the upside, last year taught me how to use my FF button. 

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Ann Mack

Ann Mack

I remember EBR saying that as well. She said it at that Paris con. 

 

ETA: Here's what she said about the kid reveal: 

Question though how could Felicity be upset about Oliver keeping a secret that he didn't even know about? Now unless they are going to let him find out and then struggle with how to tell her so that its not immediate but maybe a week or 2 okay. But if they are as "in love' and trusting of each other as they are portraying them why wouldn't he let Felicity know as soon as he knows. I feel unnecessary angst about to take place just so they can have some drama, ugh....!

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Guest

Guest

Question though how could Felicity be upset about Oliver keeping a secret that he didn't even know about? Now unless they are going to let him find out and then struggle with how to tell her so that its not immediate but maybe a week or 2 okay. But if they are as "in love' and trusting of each other as they are portraying them why wouldn't he let Felicity know as soon as he knows. I feel unnecessary angst about to take place just so they can have some drama, ugh....!

 

I think EBR was just speculating on how the kid reveal would happen. I think she's saying that if Oliver finds out he has a kid and keeps it a secret from her, then yes, Felicity will be hurt. That's how I read that anyway.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

(edited)

Well, she shouldn't be upset about a kid he didn't even know he had, but that's where the concern with these writers come in.

I honestly hope her reaction is some variation on surprise that there's just the one. Because seriously, how lucky did he get?

Edited by apinknightmare
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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

Also, something could have been a little lost in the translation in that question from the French con...? But anyway, if the CC Kid causes problems between them, I would imagine it would just be that Felicity doesn't quite know how to feel about it. Like, maybe Oliver's really excited about it and she's like "...yay..." and then takes steps back from him just because she's sort of uncomfortable and doesn't feel that she can be honest that she doesn't know how to handle this.

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Ann Mack

Ann Mack

I think EBR was just speculating on how the kid reveal would happen. I think she's saying that if Oliver finds out he has a kid and keeps it a secret from her, then yes, Felicity will be hurt. That's how I read that anyway.

Oh okay . I am not a big fan of children in action shows. Someone earlier mention "Nikita" (OMG one of the best shows EVER) I do love how they did the introduction of Michael's kid, gave the kid and mom a few episodes and then dismissed them with a quickness. I hope the EPs of Arrow watched and follow that same pattern. Kids usually come into a show when its struggling not when its just finding a new swing that has a lot of its audience excited. This did put a momentary damper on my excitement but I truly hope they introduce kid and mom and have them both exit stage right quick, fast, and with a huge push in a hurry!

Well, she shouldn't be upset about a kid he didn't even know he had, but that's where the concern with these writers come in.

I honestly hope her reaction is some variation on surprise that there's just the one. Because seriously, how lucky did he get?

That could be comedy gold especially with her and Oliver both hitting surprise faces, and Felicity and him both babbling. Emily has really good comedic instincts I think the show could work the introduction for small laughs with her and she could pull it off, possibly Stephen too.

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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

I'd be okay with him taking a few days to get over the utter shock before telling Felicity.  Knowing these writers, he'll make it a big secret for months and she'll find out on her own and blah blah manufactured drama cakes.

 

Also, I think Sandra or whatever her name is is despicable.  I think she was despicable to take the money and lie in the first place, but I think she was truly despicable not to tell him when he returned.  Despicable.  Yes, Ollie was a douchecanoe, and yes Oliver was an unknown, but she didn't have to send the child to live with Oliver or anything.  Just let Oliver know he has a child and let the child know who his father is.

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lemotomato

lemotomato

While I don't want it, I can see them playing the classic storyline of Felicity breaking up with/putting her and Oliver on pause by her volition, to give him time and space to think about and sort out what he wants in his life, whom, and how he's going to make it work while also balancing being Green Arrow and his political aspirations. Regardless if Oliver and Felicity are put on pause or not, I do believe the two of them will only come back together stronger.

That's kind of what happened on Nikita (the CW version). Nikita wasn't ready/didn't want kids, Michael couldn't abandon his son once he found out about him. She broke up with him so he would have the chance to figure things out for himself. Hmm. That reveal also happened half a season after they got together.
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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

I'm only interested in laurel's reaction, haha. And I hope it doesn't cause ship drama, because it might shock Felicity, but I don't think it's drama or breakup worthy.

You mean lack thereof? I would be surprised if the writers remember to have her around or find out about it or that she/Oliver were even together during that period.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

They were together, the scene was Oliver moping around Laurel, she went home then Oliver told his mother that he got a girl pregnant. Or do you mean they will forget that they were together at that point because they've rewritten the Oliver/Laurel history so many times?

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tarotx

tarotx

(edited)

I can deal with kids in action shows. Though Casting is critical because you need one who can act.

 

I will have issue with Felicity having issues with Oliver having an unknown son enough for it to cause them breakup potential. I can see her unease because she has issues with her mother (as well as her father's abandonment) but never completely anti to the point of angst. Having your own children isn't the same as dating a guy with a child has has a fully alive birth mother. (And I doubt the show will kill the mother because that leads to having the kid full time). How can it be a deal breaker? That doesn't seem like Felicity.

 

I can see how it will open Felicity's eyes to the man Oliver used to be and that to scare her. Oliver has never had to be fully present in any relationship, or job or place. This summer was the closest he has got to it. 

 

I personally want Laurel to throw up and think about how she has only allowed herself to be with really one man since Oliver. Hopefully it will wake her up. She needs to get a life. 

Edited by tarotx
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EmilyBettFan

EmilyBettFan

(edited)

Felicity getting the ring of the woman she talked crap about at the woman's funeral after Felicity's nosiness destroyed the woman's family so that the last months of her life were spent mostly being hated by her children. Disgusting, but par for the course on this show, unfortunately.

Felicity was talking to Diggle not to anyone else about how she felt about Moira. She still felt bad for saying it because of Oliver. She had every right with how Moira threatened her in the mansion. Felicity gave Moira a chance. Felicity's character is known as to tell the truth to Oliver because of the closeness they share.

Edited by MuuMuuChainsmoker
[Edited by mod to remove references to fan reaction to the character.]
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wonderwall

wonderwall

Forget that they were together due to b the constant changes they've made to their history.

They've certainly added on to their history but I don't see how they changed it... Could you provide examples? Other than Oliver not having time to moon over LL becuase he was worried about Thea when he went back in 3x14?

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

If Baby Mama and Surprise Kid are really in 410, then all I need is for Donna Smoak to react to it somehow.

Also, I think stalking Charlotte Ross on social media is how we're gonna figure out if they're really filming 410 or not.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

(edited)

There was also the reveal that Sara had a crush on Oliver went to a party to try to get with him which probably would've worked since she was at the party, drinking while Laurel was at home studying and narking on her little sister. Then after getting her in trouble, went after Oliver herself. 

 

I also saw it as, once Sara was introduced both in the flashbacks and the present day. Laurel was barely a blip on Oliver's radar. He showed a ton more interest in Sara. 

Edited by Sakura12
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Guest

Guest

(edited)

I don't think they've rewritten O/L history, just added to the toxicity as the time has gone on. We knew he was a crap boyfriend and then they just expanded on that with more cheating. I do think a lot of O/L fans were expecting Oliver to throw Laurel heart eyes in 314 flashbacks and were mad that didn't happen. That's the only thing I can think of tbh.

Edited by Guest
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bijoux

bijoux

Didn't one of the premiere reviews mention that O/F have a talk about kids? I suspect we'll know how they both feel about the subject before Oliver Jr. shows up.

  

I think it was about their neighbors mentioning kids. Something like, when are you two having one?

I'm only interested in laurel's reaction, haha. And I hope it doesn't cause ship drama, because it might shock Felicity, but I don't think it's drama or breakup worthy.

This is true. It should definitely make Laurel madder than Felicity who didn't even know Oliver at the time.

The only reason why I really dislike this spoiler is that I know about it already. I think I'll need to take a step back. But I can see it going either way. It makes sense for the kid to show up in S4, what with the theme of the season and the mayoral race. Who knows, maybe it's just another tease and neither Oliver nor the audience find out anything for sure. Maybe they're there as a threat of scandal but it turns out that it's not his kid after all but one that Sandra had relatively soon after a miscarriage or an abortion. Maybe he's reluctant to believe Sandra because she's đenying what she herself told him and Moira isn't there to defend herself, but Felicity is more open to the idea as she experienced Moira threatening her.

As for wanting kids, I wouldn't be surprised if Felicity either wanted or didn't want them (right now). Her age and current situation point one way. however, she's been shown as a woman ready to grab life by the horns so far - she's kept up a full time job and thrived in it while being on a crime fighting team and also wanted a real relationship. She might just react to the idea of having a child with, 'bring it.'

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Chaser

Chaser

I wonder if this is a backdoor way to introduce Felicity's father. Maybe not phyiscally but the conversation could certainly come up between the parties.

 

Why is it when they bring MamaSmoak back they throw in something I don't want?

 

3x18 - MamaSmoak! and Ray!

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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

They've certainly added on to their history but I don't see how they changed it... Could you provide examples? Other than Oliver not having time to moon over LL becuase he was worried about Thea when he went back in 3x14?

I guess you could say they added on, but to me i always saw it as changing things to fit things to the new story they wanted to tell. In s1 they wanted O/L to be this big romance. Oliver was in love with Laurel (in the writers own weird demented way), her picture was "important" to him, he wanted to be with her. S2 happens they change it to gear more towards Sara and s3 it was as if nothing had happened, now they are adding a new epic love romance to the flashbacks to help parallel Olicity.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

(edited)

It could be that Felicity does want kids, just not yet. She's only 25 and she's just inherited the position of CEO of a huge company, one that is in financial trouble. Thinking about babies is probably the last thing on her mind. Oliver, however, has probably been picturing having kids with Felicity since he saw baby Sara at the hospital in 301 and he's built the idea of it in his head that whole time. So this is all organic conflict. I approve of that.

 

The conflict between one half of the couple wanting kids and the other half not wanting kids would be enough to break a pair up but if the conflict is I don't want them now, I'm not ready and it's Felicity that has lots of time (versus the woman watching her clock tick and the guy not being ready) that's cause for a conversation but not a break up. 

 

Surprise kid is a wrinkle but as long as the mother is there, Felicity wouldn't be a full on parent.  The role and responsibility would be so different than putting being a CEO on pause and having a baby. 

 

This sounds like a part of "throwing everything at them" that was talked about and seeing how they handle it. 

 

The big issues on Gilmore Girls when they pulled the surprise kid was the secret keeping at first but even that was quickly put in the past.  It was how the mother of the child messed with the surprise Dad's head and him in turn thinking he had to figure it out then all on his own which pulled the couple apart. (among other issues)  

 

I just have a hard time seeing that sort of thing being an issue between Oliver and Felicity.  They could have Oliver revert to long term secret keeping but it seems like if he's learned his lesson so maybe a week or even two but just long enough to get over the shock.  After that, I can't see Oliver so insecure as to push the emotional and practical help Felicity would offer away.  Maybe Felicity would freak out but she's brave.  She'd take that leap with Oliver even if she was scared of the responsibility herself.  

 

The bigger concern I would think all around is the threat of DD finding out and using it against him. 

Edited by BkWurm1
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wonderwall

wonderwall

I guess you could say they added on, but to me i always saw it as changing things to fit things to the new story they wanted to tell. In s1 they wanted O/L to be this big romance. Oliver was in love with Laurel (in the writers own weird demented way), her picture was "important" to him, he wanted to be with her. S2 happens they change it to gear more towards Sara and s3 it was as if nothing had happened, now they are adding a new epic love romance to the flashbacks to help parallel Olicity.

 

They certainly changed the message of O/L but they didn't change their history. O/L was always toxic (I mean, it can't not be toxic if the dude cheated on her with her own sister). They've only added to the toxicity. Them dropping the romance and making it into nothing was the writers addressing the toxicity. 

 

I think what's good about what the show was selling by letting Oliver move on from LL and in a sense have them to a point not acknowledge each other is the fact that the show is telling the audience NOT to accept a toxic romance. Be BETTER than it. They're acknowledging that both LL and Oliver deserve better. 

 

The way I see it is, yes, the picture was important to Oliver. But as the series went on, the more he let go of his past, the more he put less importance on that picture. Oliver started living in the present, and LL was not a part of it. Which is why she became less important to him. 

 

Just because he loved her in the past and LL was important to him in the past, doesn't mean that she means the same to him now. When relationships change, so do people's viewpoints regarding said relationship history (does that make sense?). By that I mean when Oliver and LL's relationship changed over the course of the series, Oliver started to romanticize LL and their relationship less which was important. It wasn't good for him to romanticize what they had because in reality, what they had was toxic. And his romanticizing his relationship w/ LL less is shown by them dropping the romantic aspect of their relationship in S3. 

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kismet

kismet

 

From the Spoilers thread - "Executive producer Wendy Mericle told press at an Arrow screening that Diggle’s search to find out why his brother was killed will “take him to a dark place.” He’ll be keeping secrets from the team and, essentially, doing “all the things he once condemned Oliver for. How’s that going to reverberate?” The writers are excited to explore what happens when Diggle is no longer the moral compass Oliver can refer to."

This intrigues me. I wonder if we will get a flip of characterization. Perhaps Dig will go more introverted and dark, while OQ will be extrovert and light. It will be a nice building stone to their friend foundation if OQ is the one to help Dig find his way to the light this season. It will also be nice to see DR take on some meaty material.

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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

Just because he loved her in the past and LL was important to him in the past, doesn't mean that she means the same to him now. When relationships change, so do people's viewpoints regarding said relationship history (does that make sense?). By that I mean when Oliver and LL's relationship changed over the course of the series, Oliver started to romanticize LL and their relationship less which was important. It wasn't good for him to romanticize what they had because in reality, what they had was toxic. And his romanticizing his relationship w/ LL less is shown by them dropping the romantic aspect of their relationship in S3.

I'm fine with the present but I'm talking about how i think they've changed the past. And how now that past doesn't seem to matter which is why i wouldn't be surprised if they forget to involve Laurels feelings in the kid storyline.

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