S02.E05: Meet Bonnie

[RedheadZombie]

I'm confused.   Didn't Frank know where to find Lila because Sam told him?

[secnarf]

I was just speculating with that theory. Given everything we know about Bonnie, and what we know about Bonnie and Frank's relationship thus far, I personally don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that the reason Frank knew where to find Lila was that Bonnie helped with getting her there or giving Frank the heads up on where to find her and "handle" the problem. It absolutely hasn't been shown on the show yet, I was giving a what if on if that was the case and what her associated charge would be if that was revealed down the line.

My apologies for the misunderstanding. When I read your original post, it sounded like you couldn't remember if that had happened or not, so I responded saying that we've had no indication of that thus far.

 

Based on what we have been shown, I don't think it's likely that Bonnie helped Frank, but it's certainly possible. I have no trouble at all buying that Bonnie wanted to get rid of Lila on a more permanent basis, so she might have helped Frank if she had known. The thing is, I'm not convinced that she would have or could have known what was going to happen.

I wonder if the others would ever find out that Frank killed Lila. I'd love to see that.

On another note, the title of this episode is "Meet Bonnie", but I really don't feel like we have "met" her yet. We've barely scratched the surface. All of the speculation above regarding Bonnie's role in Lila's death is partially because I don't think we actually know her and what she would or would not do. I was hoping to find out more about her from this episode, rather than just confirmation of something I had already guessed.

[truthaboutluv]

I'm confused.   Didn't Frank know where to find Lila because Sam told him?

 

You're right. What we were shown was Sam made Lila believe he was going home to break up with Annalise and then he called someone on a pay phone, asking them to take care of the problem and that they owed him. The next thing we saw was Frank strangling Lila. 

[Broken Ox]

Skyler Durden, on 23 Oct 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

    Since I did not see a single mention of it, I assume that I am in the wrong, but I feel like Asher said something that implied he had a son we have never met? From the Thing At The Lake

I can't think of anything anybody said that implied this. It might help if we knew what specifically you are referring to?

 

When Asher was talking to his dad at one point about the immunity deal he said something about "protecting my son". That caught me off guard, and then I realized he was talking from his dad's perspective, how it had been self-serving instead of to benefit Asher.

 

Maybe that's what this is referencing?

[wanderingstar]

Oliver commenting on the amount of hacking he does will obviously have some role in the future though, right?

When/if all of Annalise, Frank's Bonnie's and the K4's criminality comes to light, I have no doubt Oliver will be called to testify.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Gillian Rosh

[Dowel Jones]

Plus, if that is indeed the suitcase Frank stuffed Rebecca in, it would have her DNA inside.

 

If not Rebecca herself, as that is what they were expecting.  I called it right there, though, as a suitcase full of 120# of dead person weighs in at 120#.  It can't be rolled over and moved around just like that.

 

The blood on Bonnie's blouse was on her right side in the mirror, if I remember correctly.  That would make it on her actual left side.  Annalise's wound is on her left side.  Maybe they were facing each other when Annalise was shot.  Or maybe the DA fell against her when she suffered her head wound.

[JasmineFlower]

You're right. What we were shown was Sam made Lila believe he was going home to break up with Annalise and then he called someone on a pay phone, asking them to take care of the problem and that they owed him. The next thing we saw was Frank strangling Lila. 

 

This is what I remember as well. But we never actually saw who Sam called, just that he told the person he was talking to that they owed him and that's why I'm personally leaving open the possibility that the call wasn't directly to Frank. Could have been just to Frank for sure, but it's hard to assume on this show. So, for me, Bonnie is still in play in the conversation about what happened to Lila.

[SneakyCentipede]

Since I did not see a single mention of it, I assume that I am in the wrong, but I feel like Asher said something that implied he had a son we have never met? From the Thing At The Lake?

Also, real talk: If you are having hurried sex in a house full of people, just take the panties off and get to business. There is NO NEED to get fully naked. Only in movies and teevee does this happen. Come ON.

I originally misheard the same thing. I screamed out "He has a son?!?!?!" and my boyfriend had to correct me and rewind it to prove it to me. I dont remember the exact line but it was when Asher found out his Dad had also taken a plea deal, proving his dad was only "helping" Asher in this to help himself out of some possible trouble. Asher said something like "it would be crazy to think I just want to help my son" speaking as his dad. It was odd phrasing and I'm totally butchering the line, can't remember it exactly, but thats the gist. My money is on a date rape sceario with this Tiffany girl. Someone upthread pointed out his reluctance to sleep with a very drunk Bonnie which doesn't seem to go along with his frat bro persona but would would point to him maybe being wary of sleeping with a very drunk girl.

Edited October 26, 2015 by SneakyCentipede

[krimimimi]

No more mangling, I found the original quote from the show.

Asher: You know Annalise is gonna come after you, too, for the David Allen case.

Dad: I did nothing wrong there.

Asher: Dad, we're both here because of stupid stuff I did in my past, so you can be honest about yours. We're both adults here.

Dad: And I'm the only adult with an actual career to lose.

Asher: Did you... You cut a deal for yourself, didn't you?

Dad: Of course I did.

Asher: God. [Voice breaking] Is there any part of you that thought that, "maybe I should just do this to protect my kid and not to protect myself"?

Dad: I'm protecting the both of us.

Asher: [breathes deeply] But mostly you, Dad

[Eolivet]

Wow! Favorite episode since the premiere. I was going to go all "double murder in a large house" if I had to hear the dearly departed DA taunt Asher about Trotter effin' Lake again, but Asher's story opening up an entirely alternate theory of the crime, bringing in a new suspect, and forcing Annalise, Frank and Bonnie to do what they do best? (manipulate people) Here for that.

 

It occurs to me only now that Trotter Lake is sort of like the Lila mystery from season 1 (the "other" murder, one assumes). Since they haven't told us about it yet, I have a feeling we may get it in flashback.

 

But yes! No more Asher the Mole, just Asher Trying to Make Amends. I like that -- especially since he seems to be coming at it from a different perspective than the other students. He's not jumpy and crazed because he's gotten away with something, he's upset and sick about it. I loved the ending -- I hope it's because he genuinely believes Bonnie killed...whoever -- and not some cover up. That's the one wrinkle that Annalise, Frank and Bonnie just might not be able to account for: a (relatively) honest person.

 

I also liked the juxtaposition of Annalise going to see Nate and crying and saying how sorry she was, and Bonnie going to see Asher and crying and saying how sorry she was. She learned from the best.

 

Now we know why Asher has been kept out of the main mystery until now. He clearly has a conscience, they'd all be in jail and the show would've ended last season.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Hey Chicago Redshirt (or any other good folks with a knowledge of the law that, unlike mine, doesn't stem purely from Perry Mason or Law and Order), I gotta know:

1) Asher was being offered a new plea deal, but I think they mentioned in passing that the deal only happens if what he says leads to a conviction. I take it this means he can't now confess to murdering Sam and still walk. Is that correct? (In which case I need to rethink my position on where this is going.) Also, fundamental question: doesn't a clause like that predicate a need for faith in the DA? Because if you let your pants down, and they still flub the case, you're left with your backside thoroughly exposed and no immunity, correct?

2) "Reality" check - as far as we know, with respect to Sam's murder is Bonnie guilty of a crime? Maybe accessory after the fact? What does that actually boil down to? She isn't (or wasn't until this confession vis a vis Archer) hindering their investigation just because she doesn't come forward with what she knows, is she? Is the average citizen required to take what they know in such circumstances to the police? But she's an "officer of the court" (right?) and subject to more rules than your average Joe, correct? But the students probably aren't, as they haven't taken the bar yet? Is the bar exam the point where that status changes, or are there different expectations for people based on course work/ knowledge?

Thanks in advance for explaining that.

JasmineFlower and others beat me to the punch on most of this.

 

A few quick additional points:

 

1. I am not in criminal law, but I have never heard of a plea agreement being conditioned on a conviction. Putting aside the horrible lawyering for the individual that it would take to have that as a condition, it's also bad for the prosecutor. The standard tactic to discredit a witness with a plea agreement in place/pending is to say that they are testifying the way they are in order to save their own neck or to get a break. Having a plea agreement that is valid only upon a conviction amps things up where the person in the plea agreement has extra motivation to make their testimony incriminating, and would thus be less believable.

 

2. I think I may have made this point earlier, but trusting this particular DA's office to get a conviction when they have basically failed in most cases where Anni was across the aisle from them would be particularly short-sighted.

 

3. As things stand now with respect to Sam's killing, Bonnie is arguably guilty of obstruction of justice (in that she told Asher lies to feed to the prosecutor about her own alleged guilt), accessory after the fact to murder (in that she is helping the M4 get away with murder and at a minimum helping Anni get away with the coverup), conspiracy to obstruct justice (as she is working with Anni to hide the facts of the M4's potential guilt ), possibly other things.

 

A definition of accessory after the fact is:

Someone who assists another 1) who has committed a felony, 2) after the person has committed the felony, 3) with knowledge that the person committed the felony, and 4) with the intent to help the person avoid arrest or punishment.

 

Part of being an officer of the court is that you have a duty of candor to the court. But as Bonnie has not been directly representing anything to a judge about the case, that doesn't really come into play. As someone who arguably committed a number of felonies, however, she would if found guilty face some sort of discipline on her license. I would guess some sort of suspension. My understanding is that there are only a few unforgivable offenses that mostly boil down to defrauding or otherwise severely undermining a client.

 

The students in order to pass the bar would have to pass a character and fitness screening that can be fairly extensive. Failure to disclose things could be seen as a reason to not allow them to become lawyers.

 

I suppose that Anni and Bonnie could face discipline for their negligent/reckless/poor supervision of the K5.

 

Personally, I'm sick of Annie coddling Wes while being a hard ass with the rest of them. Wes is the one who actually murdered her husband. I rolled my eyes at the scene where she was asking Wes how things are going.

 

I hope there is a reason that is neither sexual attraction to Wes nor her secretly being his mother that explains why she does treat him so much nicer than the rest. I could not see Anni letting Michaela, Connor, Asher or Laurel rock on her lap or anything like that.

 

It could just be that she uses the tools that she thinks would be the most effective on each. With Connor, it's blackmail. With Asher, it's his love for Bonnie and/or his father, plus his guilt over being rich and white. With Michaela and Laurel, not sure. I actually don't think she's tried to manipulate Laurel much, come to think of it.

 

On a general note, I don't think if this is truth in TV or not, but in all of the law firm TV shows I've seen, both sides flirt or cross ethical lines--the trick is knowing how to get away with it. Although the judge may have not believed Annalise in a genuine sense, her disbelief of Annalise's evidence seemed abrupt MO.

In this specific case, the DA was like, "We didn't turn this over in discovery" (i.e. the standard way of exchanging evidence before trial.")

 

Anni's like, "I know but I got it anyway."

 

Well, that naturally raises the question as to how she got it. Anni never offered a plausible explanation how she got it if it wasn't through doing something illegal. So what is a judge to think?

 

I suppose I have to say that like every other profession, Hollywood tries to add glam and drama to lawyering. I'd like to think that every lawyer is not hacking into databases and getting incriminating or exculpatory evidence that the other side hasn't disclosed.

 

Maybe I need to re-evaluate but it surprises me that so many people questioned whether the child was really Bonnie. I know that Annalise is twisted but I think revealing something like that to Bonnie's boyfriend and using something that awful to manipulate Asher was enough. It didn't need to be faked too. And I think the show has very effectively laid the groundwork for this to be one of the 'most awful things' that happened to Bonnie as a child. My reaction was why couldn't she just tell him rather than any shock that the show was going there. The horror and pain on Asher's face watching that video was wrenching.

 

 

I think that's the thing about the show. Can't put it past Anni to have used some other girl's video and allege it's Bonnie, even if Bonnie had been molested, just to get that visceral reaction. 

 

She literally would say or do whatever she could to get what she wants, and if she calculated that showing Asher that Bonnie was the victim of child abuse would make him more determined to protect her, then that's what she would do. How many times has she forged or manipulated evidence in order to get what she wants?

 

Off the top of my head, she put a sergeant's daughter's name in the sex book in order to get him to give Nate her job back; she planted the video tape of the aunt at the spa with the date manipulated so that the Hapstalls would fire their attorney and hire her....there's probably a half-dozen others.

 

 

What the hell is "misprison"? First year silliness?

 

"Misprison" is concealment of something, according to my law dictionary. It was not a term I'd come across till the show.

[muessigkeit]

I think that's the thing about the show. Can't put it past Anni to have used some other girl's video and allege it's Bonnie, even if Bonnie had been molested, just to get that visceral reaction. 

 

She literally would say or do whatever she could to get what she wants, and if she calculated that showing Asher that Bonnie was the victim of child abuse would make him more determined to protect her, then that's what she would do. How many times has she forged or manipulated evidence in order to get what she wants?

 

Off the top of my head, she put a sergeant's daughter's name in the sex book in order to get him to give Nate her job back; she planted the video tape of the aunt at the spa with the date manipulated so that the Hapstalls would fire their attorney and hire her....there's probably a half-dozen others.

 

In all these cases we, the audience, have been made aware of the manipulation beforehand, though. As far as I understand the rules of the show are: characters may lie and information may be withheld but what we see with our own eyes is actually what happened. There hasn't been one instance in which scenes we've been shown turned out to be fake.

 

Take the scene with Bonnie and Asher in the car for example: the words she says are lies but the flashbacks we see are the truth. So I think Annalise showing Asher the tape instead of simply telling him was for the audience's "benefit" (and I'm using that word loosely.) The whole episode we've heard characters tell lie after lie, so if Annalise had told Asher about the abuse we would have thought it's just another lie. Showing the tape is the showrunner's way of saying "ok, this is the truth."

[represent]

The only reason why  I'm more inclined to believe that the girl in the tape is Bonnie, is because of the show's title, "Meet Bonnie." Somehow the writers have created a character in which even though she literally has never had any blood on her hands, you really feel like there is no boundary she won't cross. Like there is nothing she holds sacred, she's just addicted to control and power and now that she's losing it, watch out.

Edited October 27, 2015 by represent

[Chicago Redshirt]

In all these cases we, the audience, have been made aware of the manipulation beforehand, though. As far as I understand the rules of the show are: characters may lie and information may be withheld but what we see with our own eyes is actually what happened. There hasn't been one instance in which scenes we've been shown turned out to be fake.

 

Take the scene with Bonnie and Asher in the car for example: the words she says are lies but the flashbacks we see are the truth. So I think Annalise showing Asher the tape instead of simply telling him was for the audience's "benefit" (and I'm using that word loosely.) The whole episode we've heard characters tell lie after lie, so if Annalise had told Asher about the abuse we would have thought it's just another lie. Showing the tape is the showrunner's way of saying "ok, this is the truth."

 

I don't think that in all cases we see the manipulations or lies in advance. For instance, we are not shown that Frank has basically set things up so that the M4 would discover the suitcase full of cash until after the fact.

 

What we see, for the most part, is what happened. What we saw is Anni showed Asher a videotape of a man about to molest a blonde relative and Anni introduced the tape with "Meet Bonnie." (BTW, the only meaning behind these titles is that a character says them. It doesn't necessarily mean that the woman is Bonnie any more than it's true that skanks get shanked, or it was time to move on.)

 

The fact that Anni introduced the videotape by claiming it's Bonnie doesn't make it necessarily any more true than the news article she planted last season about Griffin allegedly raping her. (which we know is false).

 

The showrunner could have done a flashback to 199X or whenever and shown the scene with a caption of "Winterbottom House" if they didn't want it to be ambiguous.

 

Of course, I readily concede I could be overthinking this, especially when Bonnie being molested would explain a lot. But a twisty show like "Murder" has me at least looking for curves that might not be there. :)

[JasmineFlower]

The students in order to pass the bar would have to pass a character and fitness screening that can be fairly extensive. Failure to disclose things could be seen as a reason to not allow them to become lawyers.

 

So, not really show related, but THIS made me laugh out loud, we can drop the "fairly" from that extensive screening in most states. And given your name, I'll assume IL bar is one of the ones you've passed, so I know you know what I mean. I had to dig up jobs I didn't remember, addresses I no longer had, pay off a $500 debt I didn't know existed but they found, and dig up references from like my first grade Sunday school teachers. No "fairly" to it in my mind. TV really doesn't capture this at all. It's literally why I couldn't get into I Suits.

[bantering]

If it's real, I didn't get how the tape of Bonnie as a kid even existed. I guess I don't understand why a criminal would want proof floating around of what he was doing (not that criminals aren't stupid at times). 

Edited October 27, 2015 by bantering

[Chicago Redshirt]

If it's real, I didn't get how the tape of Bonnie as a kid even existed. I guess I don't understand why a criminal would want proof floating around of what he was doing (not that criminals aren't stupid at times). 

 

Papa Bonnie could have wanted it recorded for his own personal porn use.

 

Papa Bonnie could have wanted it recorded to share the tape with other pedos.

 

Mama Bonnie might have suspected Papa Bonnie and set up the video to catch him in the act.

 

Mama Bonnie might have set up a video recording system as a "nanny cam" or to make sure the maid was not stealing or whatever, and unexpectedly caught this.

 

As you said, criminals can be stupid and overconfident. 

 

And, JasmineFlower, I have a gift for understatement. :)

Edited October 27, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[jhlipton]

I thought Asher's "I feel sick" look worked fine for what he was going through. He has a crazed prosecutor breathing down his neck, a father who only cares about covering his own ass, a girlfriend who he believes murdered a man, and a professor/employer who helped cover it up, I would pass out. Asher believes he's reporting a crime.

I don't want "Trotter Lake" to be anything too bad, because they've set Asher up as the only decent person on the show and I'd hate for that to go away.

He can't very well go to Anna for representation when he thinks that she, and all the K4, are lying creeps.

 

 

Annalise's scenes with Nate always frustrate me as I can never work out when she's being genuine and when she's just playing him.

 

As stated, Anna is never truly genuine.

 

I also think that it's possible Bonnie didn't actually kill Rebecca.

I'm fairly sure we saw her get a bag and tie it over Rebecca's head. So I think it's a matter of fact that Bonnie killed Rebecca,

[krimimimi]

Chicago Redshirt, thank you so much for your reply as to the legalese on the show. I found it interesting and more than a little revealing that what you and JasmineFlower had to say about plea deals bordered hard on common sense, and yet I still didn't think to apply it, because the law so often seems devoid of it. But when you guys explain it that way, it makes perfect sense, as it's basically a study in behavior modification. I need to watch that bias of mine.

I also really appreciated your explanation of the officers of the court. Perry Mason (whence 60% of my "vast" legal knowledge stems) and his PI buddy Paul Drake were forever stumbling over dead bodies they'd rather have not found, which led to one of two scenarios:

Perry would tell Paul he was "an officer of the court" and

1) had to report it, or

2) "I was never here"

and Paul would respond with "I could lose my license, Perry," pretty much either way.

And I swear I haven't heard anyone use that term since, so either it was a 60s thing, or it wasn't as important as Erle Stanley Gardner would have me believe. Color me relieved to know it's a thing. Faith in classic television restored!

Now "misprision" totally did not sound like a thing. Learn something new everyday.

[maddie965]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but it's driving me insane. In the flash forward, in the beginning of the episode, there's a moment when the camera is on Asher and it seems that he's reliving all the horrible things he just saw. We see images of a body on the floor (the DA, I guess), blood on the family picture, and then we see the AUNT IN THE CAR, right before an image or Annalise on the floor. Why on earth would Asher be thinking about the aunt????? WTH?????

 

Also, I'm so worried about Oliver. The judge did say there would be an investigation about how Annalise got that audio, right? I'm afraid it will lead right to him...

Edited October 28, 2015 by maddie965

[theatremouse]

Sorry! sorry! I meant Rebecca, the scene in the basement with plastic over her head? I thought I saw it first with Frank or someone and then with Bonnie? I'm googling I let you know if I find what I was thinking.

 

ETA: Nope, can't find it anywhere, I guess I was just imagining it. :(

As far as I remember, we were shown, not in this episode but in the one when Rebecca got whacked, both Frank and Bonnie, separately going down to the basement at some point before we were shown her dead. And it was with all the quick cut edit style blah that this show does all the time such that it was implied one or the other of them probably killed Rebecca, but I don't think we know yet which. And there is room for it to have been neither. But that may have been where you got the idea?

Oliver, I have decided, is an idiot in that he knows damn well everything he does for A is very illegal and has been saying so since Connor first asked him to, yet he didn't immediately let it go when Connor was all "no you don't want to officially work for her". No shit. Plausible deniability is probably out the window given they live together and only one has hacking skillz, but yeah, sure, get paid and stack up more evidence against yourself, mmhmm, good idea buddy.

As for Trotter Lake, something about the way it's been presented made me assume it is something old, and something the Millstones covered up, successfully for quite some time, but it recently was unearthed, hence the grand jury whatevers the DA mentioned, which says to me, it's not so much Asher being decent but also saving his skin, but rather if he were not himself in need of skin-saving he would never have offered to testify against A in the first place, for either case. He is purely a witness of opportunity. Not that I think he's lying about what he plans to testify about. He plans to tell what he thinks is the truth. But he's only doing so because he needs his own immunity for other stuff.

And he's dumb and got a crappy deal anyway.

Edited October 28, 2015 by theatremouse

[truthaboutluv]

And it was with all the quick cut edit style blah that this show does all the time such that it was implied one or the other of them probably killed Rebecca, but I don't think we know yet which.

 

 

The season premiere very clearly showed Bonnie killing Rebecca, right after Annalise figures out it was her and confronts her about it. During the confrontation, viewers are shown the flashback of how it really happened. Essentially Bonnie considered Rebecca a liability and a threat to Annalise and so she killed her. It was made as clear as when they showed Frank choking Lila to death in the season finale.

[Dowel Jones]

As you said, criminals can be stupid and overconfident.

 

Witness the recent use of social media to brag about your crime, followed shortly by a knock on the front door.  "You have the right to remain silent...."

[Beth64]

So, not really show related, but THIS made me laugh out loud, we can drop the "fairly" from that extensive screening in most states. And given your name, I'll assume IL bar is one of the ones you've passed, so I know you know what I mean. I had to dig up jobs I didn't remember, addresses I no longer had, pay off a $500 debt I didn't know existed but they found, and dig up references from like my first grade Sunday school teachers. No "fairly" to it in my mind. TV really doesn't capture this at all. It's literally why I couldn't get into I Suits.

I passed the California Bar in 1990 and have no recollection of an invasive background check. I was only 25, though, basically nothing to disclose. I wonder if they've become more thorough.

[ShellsandCheese]

Except for preying on Michaela and lying to her about who he is. Don't get me wrong - I get why he wants to find out what happened to Rebecca, but to say he's done nothing wrong isn't exactly accurate. He's engaged in manipulation and duplicity, just like every other character on the show.

 

ETA:

 

 

That's my guess as well - only I think he did have something to do with Prosecutor Sinclair's death.

 

 

Amen! Even while watching and knowing Annalise is once again trying to manipulate Nate, I'm still sucked in. That's how great Viola's performance is.

 

 

They've definitely ratcheted up the tension and stakes this season. I'm loving it.

I'm still trying to figure out why everyone wants Annalise's head on a stick. LOL. It' s like she told Connor; Wes killed her husband and the rest of them were involved in the cover-up. She didn't force them to do anything - at any point, any one of them could have walked into a police station and fessed up. instead, they were perfectly cool with letting Annalise set up Nate, and now they are perfectly fine with letting everyone else think that Annalise is a monster, hell they all think she is monster. They are in a cage of their own making and they could get out at any time. All they need to do is walk into a police station and fess up. Problem solved.....except, oh yeah, then they would all be in trouble. I can't even with these bratty ass kids.