Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[MysteryGuest]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'll actually be pissed off if Dean and John never have the conversation where Dean tells John where to get off and how much he damaged him. Even though I don't think the show had much support for the SL that Dean hated Mary and needed to forgive her, they did it. But John screwed up Dean's life far worse than Mary. John parentified Dean, not Mary. So for me, that has to happen. I'll settle for one episode of JDM and Jensen going toe to toe, if that's all I can get.

I get what you're saying, but it's just not something that I need to see.  Dean recognizes that his father was damaged after Mary was killed.  I think people grow up and in order to survive you need to learn to forgive.  I'm not convinced Dean still needs that type of closure with John.  With Mary, he never let himself admit how he felt about her, so having her back actually put more things into perspective for him.  Just my opinion.

I used to think that I wanted this big happy ending with the entire family together again, even it if was just in Heaven, but that opinion's changed.  I want Sam and Dean to have a chance at a normal life, and the possibility of having actual relationships.  I'm sure I won't get that, but that's my fantasy ending now.   Yes, I'm a sap.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I get what you're saying, but it's just not something that I need to see.  Dean recognizes that his father was damaged after Mary was killed.  I think people grow up and in order to survive you need to learn to forgive.  I'm not convinced Dean still needs that type of closure with John.  With Mary, he never let himself admit how he felt about her, so having her back actually put more things into perspective for him.  

Dean has always recognized that John was damaged. That's always been the case. It's not a new revelation in 12.22. But what Dean started to grasp...and I think Demon!Dean actually helped Dean understand that he has some hatred for John.  And even if Dean forgives John, IMO John needs to understand just how bad it was for Dean. Yeah John said "I should never have done that too you, but I wonder how John would feel knowing that Dean sold his soul for Sam's and IMO Dean largely did that because of how John raised him.

I want the catharsis for Dean. And IMO John deserves every bit of shit Dean gives him.  See also: I hate John Winchester.

[MysteryGuest]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean has always recognized that John was damaged. That's always been the case. It's not a new revelation in 12.22. But what Dean started to grasp...and I think Demon!Dean actually helped Dean understand that he has some hatred for John.  And even if Dean forgives John, IMO John needs to understand just how bad it was for Dean. Yeah John said "I should never have done that too you, but I wonder how John would feel knowing that Dean sold his soul for Sam's and IMO Dean largely did that because of how John raised him.

I know that he's always known it, I just think that at almost 40, he's pretty much come to terms with it.  And selling his soul for Sam's life gave him a pretty good understanding of what John did for him, and why.  I'm not denying that a good air-clearing conversation wouldn't be nice, but there are other things I'd rather the show do than revisit that story.  I honestly think that both Dean and Sam have moved past that, and are in a much better place now.  They worked through their Mary issues, so why go back and drag up all that crap again with John?   I kind of like the grown up Sam and Dean we've had in the past few seasons.

And yes, I know you hate John Winchester...LOL!  I don't really hate him, but I have no need to see him again.

Edited June 9, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I know that he's always known it, I just think that at almost 40, he's pretty much come to terms with it.  And selling his soul for Sam's life gave him a pretty good understanding of what John did for him, and why.  I'm not denying that a good air-clearing conversation wouldn't be nice, but there are other things I'd rather the show do than revisit that story.  I honestly think that both Dean and Sam have moved past that, and are in a much better place now.  They worked through their Mary issues, so why go back and drag up all that crap again with John?   I kind of like the grown up Sam and Dean we've had in the past few seasons.

And yes, I know you hate John Winchester...LOL!  I don't really hate him, but I have no need to see him again.

I don't equate a lack of maturity with wanting to give someone a valid piece of one's mind nor if he does that doesn't mean that Dean is not in a better place now than before. Nor does it mean that Dean is holding a grudge either. 

Sam had the chance to air his grievances with John and he accepted Mary's return. Dean had a chance to air his grievance with Mary. To me the circle is incomplete if Dean never gets that with John.

I may or may not feel strongly about this matter LOL YMMV :)

[MysteryGuest]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam had the chance to air his grievances with John and he accepted Mary's return. Dean had a chance to air his grievance with Mary. To me the circle is incomplete if Dean never gets that with John.

I know that Dean has never said those things to John, but John basically called himself out on all of it before he died.  It's not the same, I know, but it was at least an acknowledgment of how badly he'd treated Dean, and just what Dean had done by taking care of him and Sam.  Based on Dean's confrontation with Mary, I think he sees that John was as much of a victim of Mary's deal as he and Sam were.  Yes, John was the adult, but he was broken when she died.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Based on Dean's confrontation with Mary, I think he sees that John was as much of a victim of Mary's deal as he and Sam were.

I get that. But I guess to me, the situations are just so totally different.Mary made one horrible decision in a moment of weakness and  John made conscious choices all along the way to do what he did for 18 years. Maybe Dean could have stayed with Sonny but he opted to go back with John because of Sam.

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I get that. But I guess to me, the situations are just so totally different.Mary made one horrible decision in a moment of weakness and  John made conscious choices all along the way to do what he did for 18 years. Maybe Dean could have stayed with Sonny but he opted to go back with John because of Sam.

The entire situation is tragic, really.  I can't blame Mary for what she did.  She didn't make a plan to sell her soul to bring John back, she made a knee jerk decision out of desperation, fear and hysteria.  The man she loved was killed before her eyes, and her parents were also dead, all within minutes.  She really didn't have time to consider the consequences of what she was doing.  

I think John did the best that he could, all things considered.  He probably should have sent both Sam and Dean to live with someone else, but I think he was too afraid that something would happen to them.  So he kept them close, but yet left them alone quite a bit.  

But if we're to believe the angels, it was all fated.  John and Mary were meant to be together and give the world Sam and Dean, so did any of them really have any choice in any of it?  

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But if we're to believe the angels, it was all fated.  John and Mary were meant to be together and give the world Sam and Dean, so did any of them really have any choice in any of it?

John had a choice in how he treated Dean and Sam.

I don't think the angels knew that John would put Sam in Dean's 4 year old arms; that John would belittle and berate a 9 year old Dean for not protecting Sam well enough from the Shrtiga that John should have protected them both from; that John would punish Dean harshly because Sam ran away; that John would make Dean believe he was nothing more than Daddy's Blunt Little Instrument; that John would not show up when Dean nearly died and then burdened Dean with Save Sam or Kill Sam. I could go on and on but I'll spare us all. LOL

[Myrelle]

Quote

I'll actually be pissed off if Dean and John never have the conversation where Dean tells John where to get off and how much he damaged him. Even though I don't think the show had much support for the SL that Dean hated Mary and needed to forgive her, they did it. But John screwed up Dean's life far worse than Mary. John parentified Dean, not Mary. So for me, that has to happen. I'll settle for one episode of JDM and Jensen going toe to toe, if that's all I can get.

I'd love this too.

I've always found Dean to be the most human of all the characters on this show and as such he has many conflicting feelings about everyone who enters his sphere; and while, IMO, the shoddy writing for this show has rarely actually been able to live up to and equate with all that JA's acting has given us concerning Dean, series-long, it WAS made abundantly clear to me in this season's finale that Dean has a love/hate relationship with BOTH of his parents to this very day. And those relationships and the reasons for the love/hate of them are directly tied to his still unresolved feelings over being parentified as a child(by John) and by his abandonment issues that we now know began with Mary promising to be there and protect him, as a child, but then "leaving" in the violent manner that she did and that he has since learned she already knew many facts concerning, but still chose to keep them secret from John.

But yes, John was the one who parentified Dean, and I personally have never believed this to be true

Quote

I think John did the best that he could, all things considered.

And on some level, I don't think that Dean believes this either, even now-or he still at least carries some unresolved feelings towards John over it.

I think it was in this very thread somewhere that I might have stated that the feeling that I was getting at one point in this season was that what Amara felt Dean truly "needed" was to confront Mary over all the damage that she had inflicted on their lives through the deal and the secret-keeping and her self-righteousness in believing that she knew what was best for her adult sons even after she'd learned of all the damage that had been done to them as a result of those initial self-righteous and in some ways, yes, selfish decisions; and I remember feeling that way precisely because upon her resurrection she was simply continuing on with the same type of behaviors, IMO, but this time, as an adult, Dean recognized them fro what they were and called her out on burying her head in the sand again. And in recognizing that that is indeed what she had always been doing, even when he was a child and in thinking that she actually could ever leave the hunting life for a "normal life", Dean was finally able to also recognize that there was indeed a part of him that had always "hated" her for doing those things and for being the catalyst in the dysfunctional family dynamic that John only exacerbated because he had become a shell of the man he'd once been. And these revelations, along with the ones he'd had about himself through his own journey in life, helped him to finally forgive her for things that on a conscious level, he'd never even realized he hated for. My favorite part of the penultimate episode was when Dean told Mary not once, but three times, that he hated her. That was some incredibly and oh-so-humanly strong stuff there, and again,  I can never praise the Ackting enough on this show, even when the writing disappoints me so deeply.

But IA that Dean, on some level of his subconscious, still holds a love/hate feeling for his father, too. DemonDean, and all that he said before the cure, was big proof of that, IMO, too. And if John came back thinking that he'd be able to pick up right where he left off with Dean, I'd think that Dean would have LOTS! to say about that to John. And yes, I'd love to see it, too. JDM is a much better actor than Samantha Smith, IMO, so the fireworks would be much better with those two actors. Again IMO.

I'd also just like to say thank you for joining in on the discussions and to welcome to all the new posters here. The levels of discussions have been a pleasure to behold while I've been lurking more here of late. I, personally, haven't wanted to post much after S12 because I'm still so very angry about it, but, like our Dean, my anger usually cools in time, so I hope as the summer wears on I'll feel more inclined to post again-not sure that will make everyone here happy ;-)-but I've found in my media travels that it is in the nature of most fans of this show to be obsessive about it, and about many things connected to it, and I'm no different; but lurking mode is best or me now, I think. I've always loved favorite Dean lists, though, so as soon as I can I'll be all over the present one. :-) 

Edited June 9, 2017 by Myrelle

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I don't really need John to come back, but if he did, I think that it would probably be okay.  I guess I don't have strong feeling on it either way.  I agree that Dean's pretty much made peace with John, but then again, I can understand how it might be nice to see a confrontation between them.

53 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I've always found Dean to be the most human of all the characters on this show

While I disagree that Dean is the most human character on the show - as I think Sam is also very human - I really did like the rest of your post.  :)

[Katy M]

I think I'm the opposite of everyone else.  I would love for John to come back at the end. But, I don't think Dean and John need some great confrontation.  I would prefer they didn't.  John was a horrible father.  He knows he was a horrible father. He said as much before he died.  What else is there to say on the matter?  he can't go back in time and do things differently.  OK, maybe on Supernatural he can, but I doubt it. So, basically, it's over nad done with.

[rue721]

I would love to have John come back, but because I find John himself interesting.

To me, a confrontation between Dean and John would ring hollow. They had a complicated and close relationship for 26+ years, and one conversation is just going to be so "small" compared to all that history.

Anyway, I do think that John did his best, and the question is whether his best was good enough. Given where and who his sons are now, I think that it ultimately was good enough, and that they feel it was good enough. I think that Dean made peace with his life and where he's at and who he is when he was confronting Mary, and I don't think he needs to rehash that with John now.

I do think it would be interesting to see them try to have a relationship, because their relationship was so imbalanced before, and that couldn't be the case now that Dean has come into his own as an adult. It would be interesting to see how they relate (and what they appreciate or feel frustrated by about each other) as men. But I don't think they need to (or should) re-litigate his childhood in order to do that.

ETA:  I think it would be a disservice to the complexity and intensity of their relationship and history as the show has built it so far to have it all wrapped up in a bow through a confrontation/conversation.

Edited June 9, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

TBH, I don't really see the point in Dean getting to confront John. Dean knows John was a crappy father, John knows he was a crappy father, it seems to me a confrontation wouldn't be very confrontational in this case. But, I also think Dean is okay with John and has been for years now. I think he knows that even though John didn't always get it right, he did the best he could at the time.

And, it apparently wasn't all bad considering the man Dean became. Whatever damage John did to Dean by putting so much responsibility on him, it is what made him the man he is today. I think Dean's okay with that, myself.

I wouldn't be opposed to John showing up again, but I'd prefer it to be to fill in their childhood more. I just don't think there's really anything left for Dean and John--or Sam and John--to hash out. 

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I do think it would be interesting to see them try to have a relationship, because their relationship was so imbalanced before, and that couldn't be the case now that Dean has come into his own as an adult.

I would like to see John come back.  Jensen talked about it at a con, how he'd like to see Dean get the chance to confront his father. 

I think a confrontation between the two could work depending on how it was written and the above would be a good bridge, because i can see John and Dean having an argument.  Dean wouldn't fall into line anymore, and I can see John making some off hand remark about how Dean followed orders better when he was a kid and an argument escalating from there.

I think Dean still has a lot of pent up anger and resentment in him.  He's never really had a chance to deal with it.  Because there is usually something else going on, he just buries it.  I think we've seen this anger come out at different times.  He's has let a lot of it go, but not all of it.

[gonzosgirrl]

35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I don't really see the point in Dean getting to confront John. Dean knows John was a crappy father, John knows he was a crappy father, it seems to me a confrontation wouldn't be very confrontational in this case. But, I also think Dean is okay with John and has been for years now. I think he knows that even though John didn't always get it right, he did the best he could at the time.

And, it apparently wasn't all bad considering the man Dean became. Whatever damage John did to Dean by putting so much responsibility on him, it is what made him the man he is today. I think Dean's okay with that, myself.

I wouldn't be opposed to John showing up again, but I'd prefer it to be to fill in their childhood more. I just don't think there's really anything left for Dean and John--or Sam and John--to hash out. 

I think Dean became the man he is despite John's raising, not because of it. I guess when you drill it down, yes, it was because of the responsibilities John put on him, and the tough-bordering-on-cruel discipline. But it was Dean who chose to love Sam through it rather than resent him for it. Dean chose to stay in the life and help people. I have a good friend who was raised by a horrible, physically and mentally abusive father. He could easily have become the same kind of man and used his raising as an excuse for it, but instead he is legitimately the kindest and most loving father to his children that I know. Because he chose to be. That's how I see Dean.

I am torn about having John come back. I don't need a big scene like the one with Mary - I agree that Dean has moved beyond that now. What I fear with this showrunner is that he would have John judging Dean harshly for the things that happened after (John's) death. Imagine a scene where John berates Dean for not following through on his 'orders' to kill Sam. Or damning him for taking on the Mark and becoming a demon. I shudder to think of it. So no, I don't really want Dabb anywhere near that story line.

Edited June 9, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

think Dean became the man he is despite John's raising, not because of it.

Right, and that's what I was saying. Even though it was bad, something good came out of it. And, I don't think Dean would change his childhood because it helped make him the man he is today. Which is someone he is proud to be. 

[Myrelle]

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 10:32 AM, catrox14 said:

Maannnn, Riechenbach is just when demon!Dean was becoming awesomely scary. There should have been at least ONE more episode of him and Crowley going toe to toe, not because Demon Dean wanted to be KoH but just because he could fuck it up for Crowley. What better vengeance could Dean have gotten on Crowley for luring him into taking on the Mark, than cause him problems in Hell.

My immediate plan is to re-watch s9B-10 because I know that it will make me feel better about the show again even though I'm SO! with you on wanting and wishing that we'd gotten more DemonDean/Crowley interactions. DemonDean and his Don't Give A Flying Fuck About Anyone or Anything attitude just sent me. Jensen does that dead-eyed stare better than any actor I've ever seen. And DemonDean's smiles never, ever reached his eyes. Not even close. I loved that. So much.

And again, I saw so much beauty, in myriad ways, amongst all the carnage in htose two seasons. I used to love that about this show in the beginning, too. And while it hurt like hell to lose him so fast, towards the end of s10, you could feel that MoCDean was on the rise. I actually just re-watched some of the last few from S10 on TNT-The Werther Box through the The Prisoner, to be precise-and that was what gave me the idea to try the re-watch. I actually watched some of those of with my hubs, who was on vacation and who thinks this show is ridiculous for the most part, but even he liked most of those episodes and watched them with me. ;-)

The B/W purgatory scenes with Mr. Ackles were Beyond Beautiful, IMO. JA, in that medium, does things to me. Serious things. I felt the same way about the AU stuff in this season's finale. Jensen/Dean looked To Die For Gorgeous in those scenes to me. YUM! Heh. JA is the only actor that I can think of who can make watching something just for some eye candy seem like a worthwhile endeavor to me, at times. Literally, The Only One. Heh.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Myrelle
season 10, not 9

[Aeryn13]

I think it would be awkward having John back now. Of course, I thought it would be super-awkward bringing Mary back who has missed even more of their formative years whereas John at least has an understanding about who they are as people. But since they botched it so badly with Mary, I don`t even want to see them try their hand at John.

If Dean has truly made peace with him or not, for me the time to truly fix anything has gone by. Even if John were to come back now, it just wouldn`t be the same for me. Dean is different, John would be different. They could never have proper closure on past issues the way I would want them to. That could have only happened before John died. 

Which in its own way, they did have a closure scene and at least John managed to acknowledge all that Dean had done and sacrificed for the family. Which is more than Mary "me about myself" Winchester ever did. That John couldn`t help himself and do more wrong just afterwards, well, I believe the guy was too fundamentally broken at this point to do better. There is still a difference between identifying and regretting your mistakes and changing your behaviour based on it. John seemed to manage the first in the very end but not the second. 

Meanwhile the relationship with Mary only works as long as you give and give and give. Which is something Dean is good at so he can "work it", I just personally don`t consider it worthwhile. That is what I would like him to see, that such relationships aren`t worthwhile, at least not to eternal giver. I would like to see him realize that he is worth more than that but I do not expect it to happen on the show. His character is based on the concept that he never sees that he is worth more than that.   

[catrox14]

IMO, one of the few things that I think Dean truly is repressing is his conflicted feelings about John. So for me, I don't think Dean has made any peace in his heart no matter if he defends John to someone else or believes that John was always there for him when he really needed him because I think Dean knows in his heart that wasn't true and I don't think Dean has forgiven John.

Mary's deal put John and the boys on a path but John's path was vengeance with a side of saving people. Dean's was Saving people with a side of vengeance. And Dean was already a hero before John put the Save Sam or Kill Sam burden on him.

Maybe this should be in the UO thread but IMO, John's final words to Dean were never really an apology at all.  Just for the sake of discussion here are John's words.

 

Quote

A knock at the door; JOHN hovers in the doorway.
 

JOHN
How you feeling, dude?
 

DEAN
Fine, I guess. I'm alive.
 

JOHN
That's what matters.
 

SAM
(angry)
Where were you last night?
 

JOHN
I had some things to take care of.
 

SAM
Well, that's specific.
 

DEAN
Come on, Sam.
 

SAM
Did you go after the demon?
 

JOHN
No.
 

SAM
You know, why don't I believe you right now?
 

JOHN
(pleading)
Can we not fight? You know, half the time we're fighting, I don't know what we're fighting about. We're just butting heads. Sammy, I, I've made some mistakes. But I've always done the best I could. I just don't want to fight anymore, okay?
 

SAM
Dad, are you all right?
 

JOHN
Yeah. Yeah, I'm just a little tired. Hey, son, would you, uh, would you mind getting me a cup of caffeine?
 

SAM
Yeah. Yeah, sure.
 

SAM leaves, still frowning. JOHN looks after him sadly.
 

DEAN
What is it?
 

JOHN
You know, when you were a kid, I'd come home from a hunt, and after what I'd seen, I'd be, I'd be wrecked. And you, you'd come up to me and you, you'd put your hand on my shoulder and you'd look me in the eye and you'd... You'd say "It's okay, Dad"
(pauses)
Dean, I'm sorry.
 

DEAN
What?
 

JOHN
You shouldn't have had to say that to me, I should have been saying that to you. You know, I put, I put too much on your shoulders, I made you grow up too fast. You took care of Sammy, you took care of me. You did that, and you didn't complain, not once. I just want you to know that I am so proud of you.
 

DEAN
This really you talking?
 

JOHN
Yeah. Yeah, it's really me.
 

DEAN
Why are you saying this stuff?
 

JOHN comes closer, puts a hand on DEAN'S shoulder.
 

JOHN
I want you to watch out for Sammy, okay?
 

DEAN
Yeah, dad, you know I will. You're scaring me.
 

JOHN
Don't be scared, Dean.
 

JOHN leans over and whispers something into DEAN'S ear. DEAN pulls back in shock, processing. JOHN leaves, and DEAN stares after him.

IMO I don't see how any of that, in the end, was for Dean's benefit. IMO it so John could release his own guilt, soften up Dean for the next big hit that John was going to put on Dean. I'm sure John didn't see it that way, but IMO he basically reinforced that role for Dean, saying 'I'm sorry. You were a good little boy who did what you were told and even though you shouldn't have been in that position,you did it anyway and you didn't complain'.  (He was a child, John! Of course he wasn't going to complain. He was being a helper!) 'And now, Dean, you need to be a good boy and do it again because I'm trading my soul for your life, so you can Save Sam or Kill Sam'.  JFC, that's literally John's last words to Dean. What a mind screw that is for Dean. And thank goodness, in s2, that was reflected by how Jensen portrayed Dean's messed up psyche.  JFC, no wonder Dean said what he said to Bobby in AHBL Pt2. That selling his soul for Sam's gave his life some meaning. John did that to Dean IMO (with a side of being bothered about the guy that died in his place in Faith).

IMO, Dean did not  mythologize Mary nor put her on a pedestal after meeting Young Mary twice. I will argue that til I'm blue in the face. I think he understood back then what she did and why. That's largely why the whole "I hate you. I love you" speech is so hollow for me.  IMO, the history of the show doesn't really support that assertion, but it is what it is, now. Unfortunately.

On the other hand, Dean did put John on a pedestal and idolized him by listening to his music, wearing his jacket and driving his car (despite being chastised by John for not protecting it and taking care of it as much as John thought he should ....no symbolism there between taking care of and protecting Sam...nope...nothing to see here ) and that was when John was alive. Dean obeyed John's orders mosly without question for most of his young life until Sam said he couldn't understand Dean's blind faith in John in s1.  Dean idealized and mythologized John to other people like Henry and Cas after John's death.

I get that demons don't always tell the truth, but the dream walk thing and demon!Dean did seem to speak to Dean's latent issues with John, which IMO highlights that Dean can't really even admit to himself without being in some other state.

My UO is that the "I hate you and I love you" would have made a lot more sense directed at John. 

YMMV

** ETA: Yes I know John didn't tell Dean he was trading his soul before he did it. Dean put the pieces together later.

[ILoveReading]

21 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Jensen does that dead-eyed stare better than any actor I've ever seen. And DemonDean's smiles never, ever reached his eyes. Not even close. I loved that. So much.

Yes.  This reminds me of that scene at the end of Adventures in Babysitting, when Dean was trying to practice Frank's advice about pretending to smile.   Not once did those smiles reach his eyes.  Never has a "smile" managed to break my heart so much.    I've never seen another actor with that level of ability to "turn his eyes off." 

[Pondlass1]

I don't watch a lot of TV series - I find them too predictable, but mostly because acting is poor.  People stand together having a conversation (whether medical, police or whatever show) and I think - do they REALLY think people talk to each other like that?  It's all so affected and false. 

Then I watch Jensen.  I remember reading a fan account, she was with a bunch of fans watching some street shooting in Vancouver.  She said something like "... and then Jensen became Dean".  Her simple words, buried in all the fan gushing, always stuck in my mind.  Because Jensen does step into Dean's boots.  He IS Dean... complete with Dean's history, memories and foibles.  Every expression is reactive and Dean-like. The guy's so talented. :)

[Wayward Son]

48 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't watch a lot of TV series - I find them too predictable, but mostly because acting is poor.  People stand together having a conversation (whether medical, police or whatever show) and I think - do they REALLY think people talk to each other like that?  It's all so affected and false. 

Then I watch Jensen.  I remember reading a fan account, she was with a bunch of fans watching some street shooting in Vancouver.  She said something like "... and then Jensen became Dean".  Her simple words, buried in all the fan gushing, always stuck in my mind.  Because Jensen does step into Dean's boots.  He IS Dean... complete with Dean's history, memories and foibles.  Every expression is reactive and Dean-like. The guy's so talented. :)

You should try watching Orphan Black (if you haven't already). It's lead actress is very much like that also! Only she gets to show it off even more because she actually plays 4 of the main characters and a few recurring characters. It's a show about cloning, which is why she is able to play so many. 

 

A show with Tatiana Maslany and Jensen together would be my ideal! And I don't mean a romance, although I wouldn't be against that either. It wouldn't matter if they played siblings, enemies etc, as long as they spent lots of on screen time together haha

Edited June 10, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't watch a lot of TV series - I find them too predictable, but mostly because acting is poor. 

I watch oodles of TV show and I think most of them have at least one really good performer, often more than one. And in terms of dialogue and predictability, SPN is certainly nothing to write home about. Having watched so much TV and movies, I can often predict plot "twists" and call out specific dialogue that you just know  the character will say in this situation but that doesn`t mean everything is crap. Some lines are classics for a reason.

On paper Dean is IMO often a hard-to-like character. That`s certainly true in the two terrible SPN novels I read, the character became the carricature some show writers apparently think he is also. Jensen`s strength lies in playing against a certain tone. If for example the dialogue makes the character just sound like a dick, with no underlying emotion whatsoever, he will often give the delivery a little twist to soften it up. Or anger, doesn`t have to mean you shout your lines at the top of your lungs as some actors do.   

In short, I think he doesn`t play the lines completely straight and THAT is what makes Dean Dean. And overcomes the writing for him. Sure, Dean gets emo lines/scenes on purpose as well but that`s true for much every character so that`s not an indication to me the writers really, truly care. Too much of it is surface. That`s where Jensen comes in and gives some depth to the surface. Otherwise, the character would be a travesty.

It`s the only way to make SPN palatable at this point for me. The lines are mostly as such that, if played straight or even up, I wanna bang my head against a wall. It`s not a problem if a show gives you good material to begin with but here? Game over.

[FlickChick]

On 6/9/2017 at 10:13 AM, Myrelle said:

Jensen does that dead-eyed stare better than any actor I've ever seen. And DemonDean's smiles never, ever reached his eyes. Not even close. I loved that. So much.

My favorite scene to show the "dead-eyed stare" is the one when Demon!Dean is in the car with Lester. He's smiling and talking and berating Lester even when he calls him " a punk-assed demon". But then Lester calls Dean a "freak" and his eyes just go dead in less than a second. Chilling scene! And masterful...

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I watch oodles of TV show and I think most of them have at least one really good performer, often more than one. And in terms of dialogue and predictability, SPN is certainly nothing to write home about. Having watched so much TV and movies, I can often predict plot "twists" and call out specific dialogue that you just know  the character will say in this situation but that doesn`t mean everything is crap. Some lines are classics for a reason.

On paper Dean is IMO often a hard-to-like character. That`s certainly true in the two terrible SPN novels I read, the character became the carricature some show writers apparently think he is also. Jensen`s strength lies in playing against a certain tone. If for example the dialogue makes the character just sound like a dick, with no underlying emotion whatsoever, he will often give the delivery a little twist to soften it up. Or anger, doesn`t have to mean you shout your lines at the top of your lungs as some actors do.   

In short, I think he doesn`t play the lines completely straight and THAT is what makes Dean Dean. And overcomes the writing for him. Sure, Dean gets emo lines/scenes on purpose as well but that`s true for much every character so that`s not an indication to me the writers really, truly care. Too much of it is surface. That`s where Jensen comes in and gives some depth to the surface. Otherwise, the character would be a travesty.

It`s the only way to make SPN palatable at this point for me. The lines are mostly as such that, if played straight or even up, I wanna bang my head against a wall. It`s not a problem if a show gives you good material to begin with but here? Game over.

I think this never more evident then during After School Special.   Brock played all the lines sraight up, and I think we were seeing what Dean would have been without Jensen.  I can see Dean as a cocky teenager, but I just don't see him bragging about not sticking around and calling the teacher sweetheart.  I especially cringed at that I'm a hero line. 

This is what he talked about, how the most important thing is to find what isn't written on the page.  I thought his performance in s9 was brilliant because of it.  I don't think the storyline was supposed to focus as much on Dean's decision as it did. 

3 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

"... and then Jensen became Dean".

This is so true.  This is also why I love to listen to Jensen talk about Dean and how he approaches everything.  If/When Supernatural ends, its why, as much fun as it would be to see Jensen in a Marvel movie I wish he'd find another good tv program, because of his ability to build and character and add layers.  Dean feels so real at times.  I saw the start of it with Alec from Dark Angel and he's perfected it with Dean WInchester.  I'd love to see what he could do if the had the writing to back up his talent.

 

Quote

My favorite scene to show the "dead-eyed stare" is the one when Demon!Dean is in the car with Lester. He's smiling and talking and berating Lester even when he calls him " a punk-assed demon". But then Lester calls Dean a "freak" and his eyes just go dead in less than a second. Chilling scene! And masterful..

I really liked the scene with Demon Dean and Sam in the care when Sam tells Dean that he let Cole live and Dean tells him, only because it was more humiliating to let Cole live with this failure.  He was so cold and cruel in that scene.   

Edited June 10, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I think this never more evident then during After School Special.   Brock played all the lines sraight up, and I think we were seeing what Dean would have been without Jensen. 

Perfect example. The child or very young teen scenes escaped that because children nearly always get a bit "softer" lines if you well. With Afterschool Special they apparently thought Dean was old enough to threw the kind of writing at him that trashes the character if done straight. And oh yeah, Brock Kelly played it pretty much exactly as written. Which resulted in a shitfest for Dean`s character.

Granted, even Jensen can`t save every line or scene - and I`m not fond of the improv comedy which directors should put a stop to - but he still bats a higher than normal average.  

Quote

I really liked the scene with Demon Dean and Sam in the care when Sam tells Dean that he let Cole live and Dean tells him, only because it was more humiliating to let Cole live with this failure. 

I miss Demon!Dean. If only Dean could have retained some of his "I don`t give a fuck" attitude just to balance out his tendency to accept so much family bullshit. I`d like to have seen Mary pull her asshole act with Demon!Dean. 

[ILoveReading]

Thanks for all your thoughts everyone.  Now on to episode 2. 

For reference:

1. Windego
2. Everybody Loves a Clown
3. The Kids are Alright
4. Are You There God, It's Me Dean Winchester
5. Good God Y'All
6. Two and a Half Men
7. Hello Cruel World
8. What's Up Tiger Mommy
9. Devil May Care
10. Reichenbach
11. Form and Void
12. Mamma Mia

Favorite eps

1. Reichenbach- Jensen was just so great in this episode.  He really started to get comfortable with Demon Dean.  His fight with Cole was one of my favorite sequences.  He was like a cat playing with a mouse.   He was also so cold when he explained why he let Cole live.  The 'did you miss' line was delivered perfectly, with a combination of sarcasm, mocking and seriousness. 
2. Everybody Loves a Clown- This is when we used to get Sides, I remember reading them and thinking that I was really going to dislike the episode.  It's another example of Jensen making the material work.  In the sides, we had Dean flirting with Jo and saying he was doing okay with his dads death.   But on screen, you could see Jensen played it as Dean just going through the motions with Jo, and that he clearly was not doing well handling dad's death.  I think we also go the first appearance of the OPT in this ep.  It also gave me one of my favorite exchanges between the brothers.  "At least, I'm not afraid to fly."  "Planes Crash" "Apparently, Clowns kill."  The MOTW was suffiently creepy as well
3. Are You There God, It's me Dean Winchester- I thought this was a great follow up to Lazarus Rising.  I loved Dean's conversation with Cas at the end of this ep.

Least Favorite

1. Form and Void- Unfortunately, the start of a pattern in which Dean felt shoe horned into Dabb's episodes.
2. Two and a Half Men- I disliked the whole 'Dean is rusty stuff."

Favorite Dean moments

1. Dean pounding the Impala.  A great display of non-verbal acting.  The anger and rage, coming out against the car and then Dean trying not to lose it, with the little chin wibble.  So many emotions packed into that short scene.
2. Dean fishing out Cas's coat and folding it like the flag of a fallen solider
3. All of Reichenbach
4. When Dean didn't protest Sam leaving because he wasn't ready to forgive and forget.  That, IMO, was character growth.
5. Dean's confrontation with Abbadon in Devil May Care.  I wish they had played up that rivalry more.
6. Dean punching Lady Tony in Momma Mia and telling her that ape did read a book or two. 
7. The Interrogation scene in What's Up Tiger Momma.  The way it went back and forth between showing Dean having the flashback.

Edited June 12, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

Favorite episode:  Hello Cruel World

Least Favorite: What's Up Tiger Mommy-that whole auction thing just seemed stupid to me.

Best Dean moments:

Wendigo:  Saving People, Hunting things speech.

Everybody Loves a Clown: Pounding on the Impala

The Kids are Alright-Not crazy about this episode, but it was cute when Dean was counting on his fingers and every time he and Ben did the same thing

Are You There God: I liked his conversations with Meg and Victor

Good God Y'All-The last scene.  It was nice that Dean didn't try to pressure Sam to stay for once.

Two and a Half Men-the scenes where he's taking care of the baby.  So sweet.

Hello Cruel World:  The Stone one speech. Also his conversation with Bobby's voice mail.

What's Up Tiger Mommy: I just really don't like this epi.  I don't know that I have a fave Dean moment.  Blowing off Kevin's concern about his mom, being willing to stab Crowley when inside Kevin's mom.  Not Dean's best epi, IMO.

Devil May Care: I barely remember this episode. 

Reichenbach-I liked the part where he's playing the piano and the cuts his hand and watches it heal.  I'm not even sure what he's thinking/feeling in that moment, but I know it's intense.

Form and Void-Dean trying to reason with a soulless Jenna. You just have to love his persevering optimism about such things.

Mamma Mia-Not crazy about this epi either.  Too much torture.  I guess my favorite Dean moment would be when he said something along the lines of Turns out this monkey did read a book.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

What's Up Tiger Mommy: I just really don't like this epi.  I don't know that I have a fave Dean moment.  Blowing off Kevin's concern about his mom, being willing to stab Crowley when inside Kevin's mom.  Not Dean's best epi, IMO.

 

I always felt this was part of Dean's PTSD coming back from Purgatory.  He spent a year where everything was just black and white and living in a place were the law of the land was killed or be killed.  It's hard to just turn that off that kind of thinking. 

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I always felt this was part of Dean's PTSD coming back from Purgatory.  He spent a year where everything was just black and white and living in a place were the law of the land was killed or be killed.  It's hard to just turn that off that kind of thinking. 

Sure, I get that.  I just still don't feel like it's Dean's best epi, nor do I have a fave Dean moment from it.  Just because it's understandable, or even that I don't blame him for it, doesn't mean I like it.

[gonzosgirrl]

Cute :)

[FlickChick]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Cute :)

That's really funny with the movie of that title coming out last Friday - with a pretty good review no less.

[PAForrest]

13 hours ago, FlickChick said:

That's really funny with the movie of that title coming out last Friday - with a pretty good review no less.

I'm pretty sure Robbie posted that as a riff on the movie release - like saying, see here, this is the original "Baby Driver". And, of course, it works because it's true! Heh.

A little OT, but the reviews are earned - Baby Driver the movie is awesome!!!!

[SueB]

Sorry for the pun but -- it's a wild ride. Baby Driver is definitely a character-driven quirky action movie with an actual plot. I enjoyed it.  The movie theater I was in was very full. 

[gonzosgirrl]

29 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I'm pretty sure Robbie posted that as a riff on the movie release - like saying, see here, this is the original "Baby Driver". And, of course, it works because it's true! Heh.

A little OT, but the reviews are earned - Baby Driver the movie is awesome!!!!

Sorry, I guess I should have posted the context along with the tweet - I assumed it was obvious. (I know, never assume.)  It was indeed tweeted in relation to the movie.

[Pondlass1]

They should have given the original Baby Driver Jensen a cameo.  Supernatural isn't a big deal I know,  but it would have been so super cool or an Easter egg (if I have the right terminology).

[catrox14]

Been thinking about Demon Dean and came across this cool tumblr post about Demon Dean.

Sigh...

Never gonna get over that Jensen had to play the demise of Demon Dean before he played the growing into his sea legs in Black Demon Dean and really finding himself as Reichenbach Demon!Dean.

http://whoeveryoulovethemost.tumblr.com/post/162716136896/supernatural-hiatus-creations-week-seven

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

opps wrong thread

Edited July 20, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

opps wrong thread

A fortunate mistake that brings our boy back up the page. :)  That collage of Demon Dean gifs both frustrates and pleases me. "Did you miss?" remains one of my favourite things Dean has ever said.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

A fortunate mistake that brings our boy back up the page. :)  That collage of Demon Dean gifs both frustrates and pleases me. "Did you miss?" remains one of my favourite things Dean has ever said.

Then you might appreciate and be frustrated by a video I'm going to post in the Fanfiction thread.  I'm never sure if I should put fanvids here on the fanfiction thread but I'm going with the fanworks thread

Edited July 20, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

I'm putting this one here because it's clips of Badass Dean Not set to music or anything like that.

This is pretty fun

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm putting this one here because it's clips of Badass Dean Not set to music or anything like that.

This is pretty fun

Gah! I want this Dean back SO BAD. And not once or twice a damn season.

I can't for the life of me place the scene around 9:15 or so, with the guy in the chair, Dean saying 'give me a name'.

Edited July 21, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Gah! I want this Dean back SO BAD. And not once or twice a damn season.

I can't for the life of me place the scene around 9:15 or so, with the guy in the chair, Dean saying 'give me a name'.

It was the Dark Charlie episode.  The guy that Charlie beat up.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

It was the Dark Charlie episode.  The guy that Charlie beat up.

Ah, thank you!. I think I've mentally blocked out that episode. It's near the top of my do.not.want. list, lol.

[bettername2come]

A video of people appreciating Dean is appropriate for the thread, yes?

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, bettername2come said:

A video of people appreciating Dean is appropriate for the thread, yes?

It definitely works for me ♥

ETA some thoughts.  I guess being a "Dr. Huxtable" type isn't quite the compliment it was back then. ;)  I do so love Dean interacting with kids. Even though he doesn't really look much like young Jensen, Dylan Everett is by far the best young Dean. I would like to see him again.

Question: I don't think it every occurred to me until this moment watching the vid (though now that I have, I'm sure it's been discussed). When Charlie says 'I love you', and Dean responds "I know." - was that a play on Han Solo/Princess Leia?? I always thought Dean was a bit of a jerk to answer that way and omg, it was, wasn't it? One of his pop-culture references. I feel so dumb!!

Edited July 21, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

When Charlie says 'I love you', and Dean responds "I know." - was that a play on Han Solo/Princess Leia?? I always thought Dean was a bit of a jerk to answer that way and omg, it was, wasn't it? One of his pop-culture references. I feel so dumb!!

It absolutely was that reference. Poor Dean. Forever misunderstood. LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It absolutely was that reference. Poor Dean. Forever misunderstood. LOL

LOL!! I can't believe I didn't put that together before now. Doh!!!

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

LOL!! I can't believe I didn't put that together before now. Doh!!!

Well better late than never. You don't have to burn your Dean fan card. It's okay. LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

43 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well better late than never. You don't have to burn your Dean fan card. It's okay. LOL

In my defense, I've only seen Empire Strikes Back once, and it was when it came out :O , but that's such an iconic line, I should've twigged anyway! *pets Dean* Sorry, buddy.