Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

But not Mary. He hasn't really been allowed to be angry with Mary or to voice his hurt and pain over her doing the exact same thing that John did to them all of their lives after she died. She's the one that he likely feels the need to have it out with(and especially over that) more than anyone else this season.

I am taking my reply to this back to the spoilers and speculation thread. 

[SueB]

13 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I just want to be clear that I'm in no way trying to deny Dean's right to feel angry and betrayed by the ones he loves, but my question is; has Dean really been suppressing those feelings?

Off the top of my head, during this weeks episode he was pretty upfront with Castiel about the anger and worry his disappearing act caused, and he showed a similar level of anger later in the episode when they find him after he found the Colt. Earlier in the season, during Lily Sunders Has No Regrets,  he has no issues with expressing his anger and worry over Castiel's decision to kill Billie.

In addition to this, Dean also had no issues with telling Sam that he needed to pick a side during The Raid. Then there was his speech to Mary during the same episode.

I am not trying to deny Dean's right to feel the way he feels. I'm just pointing that IMO he has expressed said feelings especially towards Castiel. 

I think it's kinda both. On the one hand, ITA with Wayward that we've seen some really healthy expression of emotion from Dean.  Even when he was having a less than healthy "silent treatment" moment in Lily Saunders Has Some Regrets, he was really clear that he was happy and thankful Cas saved them -- he was just worried.  There have been at least half a dozen frank and open conversations (IMO).  

OTOH, he's been a bit uneven regarding the Mary feels.  Like saying he's okay but not eating pie, and then admitting to Sam he's sublimating with hunting.  I think it's mostly been open and acknowledged but I think his recent comment about "Would you want your Mom hanging out with Ketch?" shows that Mary is still an open wound.  

I think what he wants is to know Mary is safe and in their lives. But she's pushed back so hard on him (unfairly IMO) that he's not pushing any expectations on her.  And I think he's stewing about it.  

[Myrelle]

I'd say that the predominant emotion that he's been expressing in the second half of this season IS anger; but my point was that he doesn't seem "happy" to me at all; not since Regarding Dean anyway-except for maybe right after he borrowed some sugar from the waitress.

I DO think that that episode(Regarding Dean) was a type of good-bye to some aspects of Dean that we did get to see more of in the first half of this season, however.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, Myrelle said:

I'd say that the predominant emotion that he's been expressing in the second half of this season IS anger; but my point was that he doesn't seem "happy" to me at all; not since Regarding Dean anyway-except for maybe right after he borrowed some sugar from the waitress.

I understand you don't see it the same as me, I have a different view of it is all. That's why I posted my opinion in the Unpopular Opinions thread to begin with.

[Aeryn13]

I don`t believe Dean is happy either. And if he is, I want him to be unhappy, stat, because this current version is thouroughly unappealing to me. Like, exactly the kind of fictional character I don`t care for. Only one other type that is worse. 

Though I don`t know how I would describe him right now emotionally. Yes, he has expressed anger here and there. And usually Sam flitters around with a displeased "Dean" in response which, good god, are you the feelings police, Sam? I didn`t think Dean`s anger at Cas in the last episode was out of line or the way he expressed it. What with the way the ep went and how Cas deliberately manipulated him like this, it will only make the next encounter that much worse. 

Resigned overall might be a good term. I mean, being a BMOL lapdog, letting their crap slide, not listening to his better instincts, basically not hunting whatsoever and not even questioning why he suddenly seems unable to? He questions nothing, it seems. The only thing he showed interest in was when he acted super-weird initially about the hook-up. 

If they revealed that Rowena had placed a different spell on him that muted, well, everything about him, it would make lots of sense to me.  

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I didn`t think Dean`s anger at Cas in the last episode was out of line or the way he expressed it.

Of course it wasn't out of line, I wasn't suggesting it was. It was perfect, he honestly let Cass know what he was feeling rather than suppressing it and letting it fester to a huge blowup. I think that's healthy, myself.

[Aeryn13]

But when the show always has Sam on hand, wringing said hands and chastitize Dean for expressing negative emotions, Dean`s emotions tend to look over the top. As if his feelings or expressions of them were continously out of line. Anyone would look like a rage-freak if that happened.  

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But when the show always has Sam on hand, wringing said hands and chastitize Dean for expressing negative emotions, Dean`s emotions tend to look over the top. As if his feelings or expressions of them were continously out of line. Anyone would look like a rage-freak if that happened.  

For me, Sam chastising Dean only reflects on Sam, not Dean.

[Aeryn13]

Depends on how the episode presents it. We had a couple episodes this Season on "Dean does feelings wrong (by having them)" that annoyed me a lot. Only in the Asa Fox episode I thought there was some positive interaction with Jody. I enjoyed Dean being waspish with Mary because I need to vicaruously live through at least one character when she is onscreen. So I was happy to see Jody just being unintrusively supportive. She offered up a viewpoint without invalidating him, I truly appreciated that.   

[catrox14]

I have a longer reply I'm working on that I'll post later probably in the UO thread but IMO Dean is not quite as repressed as is thought in general but to Dean in this season I'll say this.

Dean was open and honest with Sam, Cas and Mary on his terms (IMO this is not really new behavior at all but that's part of my longer thing I'm working on) but what's happening is that Sam, Mary and even Cas have been there to react in the background to Dean, with an eyeroll, a sour lemon face, or sighing and outright saying "Dean and telling him why he's wrong when he's not actually in the wrong IMO . So why have the other characters react this way? It seems like they are trying to manage Dean and unfortunately it has a shaming/invalidating affect on Dean. It's almost like it's creating this underlying message that either Dean is wrong, or 'UH OH He's gonna blow so we must get him in line".  I don't like and I don't think it does much for the other characters.  

I can't decide if they are trying to say Dean is wrong to feel this way, or are they saying that the others who react to him, are wrong or is it just showing that families are kind of fucked up at times? I'm not sure what it's all about but it leaves me frustrated.

[ILoveReading]

Maybe repressed anger isn't the right word.  It's hard to really put my finger on it because I don't know if its storyline reasons or not.

I might describe it as an increasing sense of isolation.  (Not a perfect word, but probably the best I can come up with).  Mary has rejected him repeatedly.  The one time he told her off, she still seemed standoffish.   Almost more so because the show didn't make the effort to show Dean keeping in touch with Mary like they did in the early eps.  I do believe that when Dean told Sam to pick a side, what he really meant was pick my side.  Then Sam picked Team Brit and Mary.  Then despite all the hurt Mary caused by lying Sam preceded to do the same thing.   He lied for weeks and made Dean work for them without his knowledge.

When asked "what about Dean." Sam didn't consider Deans' feelings.  He just said 'give me time"  Sam's response suggests that he's going to make sure Dean comes around, regardless of what Dean wanted.  i 'm not saying he needed Dean's permission but Sam did owe it to Dean to be upfront about it.  While true Dean didn't have a gun to his head, there was some manipulation on Sam's part because Sam knows Dean won't leave him out there by himself with a bunch of douches that he didn't trust.

When Cas came back, Sam came across as being more on Cas's side.   Dean even said they're batting zero too.   Not to mention, Cas betrayed him 3 times this episode alone.

That all has to weight on someone with Dean's self-esteem/abandonment issues so maybe Dean is angry about the Mary/Cas/BMoLs sitution but he also probably feels very alone and that no one is on his side right now. 

If Dean was happy and unburdened, it wouldn't explain why he's become so incompetent on a hunt for reasons other than those that would belong in the bitch/jerk thread. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Quote

so maybe Dean is angry about the Mary/Cas/BMoLs sitution but he also probably feels very alone and that no one is on his side right now. 

Which is IMO correct. I think if he stuck to his guts, noone would be. Mary and Sam had chosen the BMOL so if he didn`t, they would side against him. Cas just sided against him as well. And there are pretty much not any other characters left. Crowley always chooses himself so he is not a valid candidate.  

This is not to say I`m happy Dean basically caved to peer pressure but the character isn`t like House or Sherlock who can happily be an island onto themselves because they don`t thrive on being social creatures. Dean is so I can see why he did what he did. I don`t like it, I think it`s degrading but I understand it.   

 

Quote

I can't decide if they are trying to say Dean is wrong to feel this way

When the conflict ends with him apologizing or acknowledging how he was wrong, then IMO the narrative is saying he was wrong. Granted, the narrative is an asshole but it is what it is. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

I am taking my reply to the relationships thread because my reply is focused on the Dean / Cas dynamic this year rather than specifically Dean. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Wayward Son

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

This is not to say I`m happy Dean basically caved to peer pressure

I think it is selling Dean short to say he caved to peer pressure in this case.

Dean didn't like or trust the BMOL, and he still doesn't. But when he realized that the valid cases they had been working had come from the BMOL, he reasoned that they work with untrustworthy people -- i.e Crowley -- all the time when it seems likely to help the bottom line of saving people. That strikes me as a pretty rational position to take.

Since Dean and Sam have been working with the BMOL, I can't recall them doing anything -- expect perhaps "reporting" to the Brits -- that they wouldn't have done if they had found the cases on their own. They are still working the cases their way, according to their code. So, while if Dean had decided to move into the BMOL compound to be close to Mary, I'd agree that he was allowing himself to be pressured, I don't think the fact that he is pretty much living his life as usual, but with an added source of intel, is him caving to anyone.

Even after the last few seasons of brodependence, I also don't really buy the idea that Dean is so reliant on his emotional ties to others that he would do anything to maintain them. Whenever someone close to him (usually Sam) leaves him, it upsets him (sometimes, IMO, with good justification, and sometimes less so). But Dean has hunted without Sam before, and sometimes by choice, as in early season 5, or even when he ran off (albeit briefly) to help out Benny. In the Lisa year, Dean kept his distance from Bobby -- probably out of a desire to keep Lisa and Ben well away from hunting, but he stayed away all the same. And he's the one who finally asked Mary to leave the bunker, so even with her he has limits. 

I agree that Dean cares deeply about his connections to others -- if he were in the HP-verse, he'd be the most badass Hufflepuff who ever lived. But I think we've seen that he still has enough of a core of his own that he won't let himself be unduly swayed by others -- like anyone else, he is capable of being persuaded by the arguments of others, if he comes to buy them, but that's not a bad thing. 

To sum up: I think if Dean really, really thought that working with the BMOL under any circumstances and to any extent was a mistake, he would have stood his ground -- which, by the way, wouldn't have necessarily meant a major feud with Sam; it is possibly to disagree, even on an important point, and still maintain a relationship. They couldn't have continued hunting together, but again, no reason Dean couldn't chase his own hunts, as he did while Sam was at Stanford. I hope that by this point in their relationship, if either Dean or Sam ever did leave the hunting life, the fact that they were no longer hunting partners wouldn't mean that they couldn't remain integral parts of each other's lives. 

[ILoveReading]

Since The Raid has anyone taken Dean side of things or really seen his POV?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

To sum up: I think if Dean really, really thought that working with the BMOL under any circumstances and to any extent was a mistake, he would have stood his ground

I think past!Dean would have but that guy had strength and passion and would generally listen to his instincts. Which were often very good. In short, he had many attributes that made me gravitate towards him. Right now, he is devoid of that so I can buy that currently he`d do stuff I would normally find out of character.

[ILoveReading]

38 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

To sum up: I think if Dean really, really thought that working with the BMOL under any circumstances and to any extent was a mistake, he would have stood his ground -- which, by the way, wouldn't have necessarily meant a major feud with Sam; it is possibly to disagree, even on an important point, and still maintain a relationship. They couldn't have continued hunting together, but again, no reason Dean couldn't chase his own hunts, as he did while Sam was at Stanford. I hope that by this point in their relationship, if either Dean or Sam ever did leave the hunting life, the fact that they were no longer hunting partners wouldn't mean that they couldn't remain integral parts of each other's lives. 

I think an in character Dean would have objected or at least made a case why they shouldn't.  I even agree they could have gone their separate ways without getting into a fight and neither would have been right or wrong, but show mandate says the brothers can't be separated so there was no other option than  Dean caving without a fight. (And I don't mean that in a bitch/jerk kind of way it just is what it is). 

I'm not sure I'd put Crowley on the same page with the Men of Letters, mostly because he has proven himself to be useful on more than one occasions and whenever the brothers work with him, they know he has an ulterior motive and expect to get stabbed in the back.  They very much treat him like the Devil you know.  That skepticism is missing with the Brits. 

Dean clearly is uncomfortable at the start of Ladies Drink Free and tells Sam that he didn't sign up for reporting for duty and just to take cases and Sam's response is to defend the Brits.  So to walk away also acts against Dean's prime directive.   So there is room for doubt on Dean's feelings because of that need to keep Sam safe.

At this point, the biggest problem with the Brits is that there is more than enough evidence to know their sketchy.  On the hunt, Mick screws up with Hayden.  They give him another chance.  Mick screws up and loses Claire they give him another chance. 

You (general you) could make an argument that Mick is already on his fourth chance.  Then they want to kill Eileen for what is no more than a tragic accident..  If that isn't sketchy, I don't know what Sam and Dean are waiting for?   The next weeks its just business as usual and not only that their filing reports.

I think its mostly down to a writing failure because Dean (and Sam too) should have picked up on this stuff already and it should be a problem .  MMV  

[companionenvy]

Responding in UO/Bitterness.

[Goldmoon]

Quote

I agree that Dean cares deeply about his connections to others -- if he were in the HP-verse, he'd be the most badass Hufflepuff who ever lived. But I think we've seen that he still has enough of a core of his own that he won't let himself be unduly swayed by others -- like anyone else, he is capable of being persuaded by the arguments of others, if he comes to buy them, but that's not a bad thing. 

Now I won't be able to watch or read Harry Potter without seeing Dean as a badass Hufflepuff!  But for the rest of the paragraph - and great post by the way - Your assumption is that a person with a "core of his own ... won't let himself be unduly swayed."  The problem that I see here is that anyone's "core" can be eroded under the right circumstances and if it is under siege for a long period of time.  (I have been there and it's not pretty.)   Dean must be feeling like he's talking to himself now since no one seems to value his opinion.  Given enough of that coupled with the betrayals and the apparent lack of respect from those he holds dear, he could well be sliding down that rabbithole of depression.  In many ways, no matter our "core" selves, we are the reflection of how others see and treat us.  If he is not already thinking about giving up on Mary and Sam, and maybe Cas, he will be considering it soon, as in, "They don't give a fuck, so why exactly should I care?  Screw them!" I wouldn't be happy to see Dean like that, but if the writers are actually paying attention to what they have been writing for Dean, that is a logical conclusion of his character arc.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Since The Raid has anyone taken Dean side of things or really seen his POV?

Maybe not - I'm not sure - but that one in "The Raid" was a big one.

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Though I don`t know how I would describe him right now emotionally. Yes, he has expressed anger here and there. And usually Sam flitters around with a displeased "Dean" in response which, good god, are you the feelings police, Sam? I didn`t think Dean`s anger at Cas in the last episode was out of line or the way he expressed it.

For some reason, it seems to be Sam's turn to play mediator. When Dean was mediator back in season 1, he often "Sam"ed Sam when Sam would get angry - often for good reason - at John and tried to get Sam to just go along and "play nice" - i.e. just do what John said and not ask questions - until Dean finally decided he, too, had enough of John being... well John and objected himself.

I'm hoping that this thing with Sam will pass, because I don't like the writers version of having Sam as the mediator very much. I like it better when Sam wants Dean to express his opinion and not sublimate emotions.

Edited May 1, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

I thought Sam took Dean's side by lojacking the phone.  Sam was TRYING to make peace but he recognized Cas was not answering Dean's questions. So, IMO, Dean was grilling Cas and Sam backed him up by lojacking the phone (once he realized Cas couldn't look at them). 

[AwesomO4000]

Good point, @SueB.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, SueB said:

I thought Sam took Dean's side by lojacking the phone.  Sam was TRYING to make peace but he recognized Cas was not answering Dean's questions. So, IMO, Dean was grilling Cas and Sam backed him up by lojacking the phone (once he realized Cas couldn't look at them). 

I have to say I could not figure out for the life of me why Sam said Cas couldn't look them in the eye because Cas was talking to them like he always does - some eye contact, some weird looking around. Dean and Cas were literally making all kinds of their regular eye contact in Dean's room. I don't get it.

[SueB]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I have to say I could not figure out for the life of me why Sam said Cas couldn't look them in the eye because Cas was talking to them like he always does - some eye contact, some weird looking around. Dean and Cas were literally making all kinds of their regular eye contact in Dean's room. I don't get it.

I'm reminded of that time Dean said 'Hey, Shifty!' (When Cas was all about bees). Sight-line engaged or not, Cas was squirmy when questioned IMO, when first talking to both.  

Edited May 1, 2017 by SueB

[ILoveReading]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Maybe not - I'm not sure - but that one in "The Raid" was a big one.

I should have been more specific, I meant the end the end of The Raid has anyone taken Dean's side or seen his POV?  Because this seemed to be Dean's apathy started appearing.   Sam sided with Dean initially but then Sam eventually went too Mary and chose the Brits side.  Again, not saying he needs Dean's permission or that its wrong for Sam to want to see him mom, but don't lie about it. 

If Sam suspected Cas was up to something, why didn't he give Dean the heads up and mention this to him? 

IMO, Dean's family needs to stop doing things to spare his feelings because in the end the all they end up hurting him more. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The problem that I see here is that anyone's "core" can be eroded under the right circumstances and if it is under siege for a long period of time. 

I agree. Some fictional characters can avoid that but there needs to be an element of sociopathy in them, not even in a villainous way but the way they process or don`t process emotions.

Dean, for good or ill, is a very emotional character. Usually. He is a passionate person who mostly doesn`t sugarcoat or hide how he feels. This pattern of repression over the course of the show is IMO not a natural response of the character but the result of being shown and told how inconvenient his feelings are at a given time and his feelings turned around on him when he does share them. He has been painting a few gigantic targets on his back this way.

This Season, the usual "suck it up" message has been morphed into "what your feeling is wrong, you shouldn`t be angry bla bla". Which is IMO even worse. Processing anger means there needs to be a time allowed where you actually get to feel and express it. So that enire thing in that ep with Magda? Hated it. Why did he need to be all happy and content about what Mary did? It`s not like he wanted to track her down and shoot her in the face for it so him being angry as he was was for me necessary and healthy. But nope, can`t have that.

And the thing in the Raid was so much worse. It didn`t help Dean one iota to grovel IMO.

I just want Dean to regain himself somehow. To become the character he was instead of this shell. It`s not maturity or happiness I see in him right now, it`s nothingness.     

[SueB]

Another moment of backing Dean was Sam's immediate 'We're done.' When he found out about Mick killing Hannah.  Dean wanted out if it went bad and Sam was completely on-board. Yes, they gave him a second chance but that was also clearly pre-discussed. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

I'm reminded of that time Dean said 'Hey, Shifty!' (When Cas was all about bees). Sight-line engaged or not, Cas was squirmy when questioned IMO, when first talking to both.  

I didn't see Cas as being squirmy  or shady in "The Future" when he first talks to them. He walks right into the bunker, stands at the top of the steps, looks directly at them and says "Hello".  Once he gets to the bottom of the stairs, IMO he was apologetic for not staying in communication and staying radio silent. He came right out and said where he had been and IMO the only time he looked down was when he admitted to Dean that he had gotten his messages and essentially ignored them.  I think he felt ashamed about that.

Even if they were going for "Cas was acting shady" why not have Sam just say exactly that instead of "You couldn't look us in the eye" when pretty much the opposite of that was shown. That is just bad writing IMO. 

What should have happened was to have Dean say, " I thought something was off at the end of our last phone call before you went radio silent. Cas. Then you said you went to Heaven and didn't answer my messages/prayers, I got worried so I asked Sam to put the tracker on your phone." That ties back to Dean's initial instincts at play and his on going worry about Cas.

[Diane]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't see Cas as being squirmy  or shady in "The Future" when he first talks to them. He walks right into the bunker, stands at the top of the steps, looks directly at them and says "Hello".  Once he gets to the bottom of the stairs, IMO he was apologetic for not staying in communication and staying radio silent. He came right out and said where he had been and IMO the only time he looked down was when he admitted to Dean that he had gotten his messages and essentially ignored them.  I think he felt ashamed about that.

Even if they were going for "Cas was acting shady" why not have Sam just say exactly that instead of "You couldn't look us in the eye" when pretty much the opposite of that was shown. That is just bad writing IMO. 

What should have happened was to have Dean say, " I thought something was off at the end of our last phone call before you went radio silent. Cas. Then you said you went to Heaven and didn't answer my messages/prayers, I got worried so I asked Sam to put the tracker on your phone." That ties back to Dean's initial instincts at play and his on going worry about Cas.

He is being shifty though.  He keeps looking down and away.  Yes he would look at them but then quickly looked away.  He did it again when he was in Dean's room.

[catrox14]

Just now, Diane said:

He is being shifty though.  He keeps looking down and away.  Yes he would look at them but then quickly looked away.  He did it again when he was in Dean's room.

Cas doesn't just stare unblinkingly at Dean anymore when he talks to him. That hasn't been a thing in like I dunno, 5 years now.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't hold constant unbroken eye contact when I have lengthy or difficult conversations with people. I have to avert my eyes because I get uncomfortable but that doesn't mean I'm being shady or shifty or lying.  It's just a communication thing. That's how I read all that between all three of them and then later between Dean and Cas. 

IMO, it plays shifty in retrospect because Cas stole the Colt or for some viewers because they suspected Cas was up to SOMETHING. That still doesn't IMO translate to a line of "You couldn't even look us in the eyes".   YMMV. That's my take on it.

[Diane]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Cas doesn't just stare unblinkingly at Dean anymore when he talks to him. That hasn't been a thing in like I dunno, 5 years now.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't hold constant unbroken eye contact when I have lengthy or difficult conversations with people. I have to avert my eyes because I get uncomfortable but that doesn't mean I'm being shady or shifty or lying.  It's just a communication thing. That's how I read all that between all three of them and then later between Dean and Cas. 

IMO, it plays shifty in retrospect because Cas stole the Colt or for some viewers because they suspected Cas was up to SOMETHING. That still doesn't IMO translate to a line of "You couldn't even look us in the eyes".   YMMV. That's my take on it.

IMO it does, I have watched the episode 4 times now.  I think he was acting shifty from the very beginning.  YMMV.

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, Diane said:

IMO it does, I have watched the episode 4 times now.  I think he was acting shifty from the very beginning.  YMMV.

FTR, I have watched that particular scene and the scene in Dean's room, a number of times, so I'm not coming at from 2 watches. I studied it quite a bit as a result of my side-eying that line from Sam. 

I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one then :)

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Even if they were going for "Cas was acting shady" why not have Sam just say exactly that instead of "You couldn't look us in the eye" when pretty much the opposite of that was shown. That is just bad writing IMO.

I haven't had a proper rewatch to say whether I agree or disagree on whether or not Cas was acting shady, but I agree that the "You couldn't look us in the eye" was not the best way to go. I guess it was easier and/or a shorter "explanation" than the likely truth that Sam and Dean should have been suspicious as soon as Castiel said that he had been up in heaven... because almost every time Castiel goes to heaven and/or interacts significantly with other angels, it messes with his head in some way. Season 4's reprogramming, season 6's clash with Raphael, season 7's disastrous heaven cleanse, season 8's Naomi brainwash and Metatron interaction, and to a lesser extent his interactions with Hanna. Basically pretty much Castiel going to heaven = messing him up in the head somehow - either due to manipulation or Cas ending up in a bad place emotionally.

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

IMO, Dean's family needs to stop doing things to spare his feelings because in the end the all they end up hurting him more.

I actually agree with you somewhat on this point, but it's going to be a hard habit to break for Sam at least (Mary has less excuse, not having lived alongside Dean like Sam has). Dean, himself, set the precedent with his burying stuff and generally endorsing that tactic. "Sam Interrupted" is a good example when Dean told Sam flat out to bury his anger and forget about it, "because that's how we keep going. That's how we don't end up like Martin." And that's what Sam has mostly been used to.

For me, I'm not sure that Sam's "Dean"s in response to Dean's angry outbursts are as much Sam trying to be the "emotional police" as maybe Sam being surprised at/uncomfortable with/not used to Dean expressing his anger so much that way - especially to people not Sam - and I'm not sure that Sam knows how to react to that... and it's translating a little bit into Sam also worrying about making Dean angry in the first place.

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Processing anger means there needs to be a time allowed where you actually get to feel and express it.

Dean generally has not been a proponent of that before, so as I said above, Sam might have to take some time to get used to it. Sam himself is used to having people telling him to stow his anger - as in my above example from "Sam Interrupted," when Dean made the deal for his soul: "Don't be mad at me," the Amy incident: "Stop being a bitch," to a lesser degree, season 9, etc.

So, in my opinion, Dean expressing his anger more outright might be something that might take Sam some time to get used to and figure out the best course of action with.

Edited May 1, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

Last night got me to thinking about just how many text messages and voicemails Dean has sent over the last few months that went unacknowledged until they needed him/something from him. Looking at  you, Mary & Cas. 2/3 of the most important people in his life ignore and/or betray him (for the 'right reasons' of course <insert eye rolling emoji>) and yet he is still forgiving and reaching out. And people still insist he's the emotionally stunted one.

[ILoveReading]

13 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Last night got me to thinking about just how many text messages and voicemails Dean has sent over the last few months that went unacknowledged until they needed him/something from him. Looking at  you, Mary & Cas. 2/3 of the most important people in his life ignore and/or betray him (for the 'right reasons' of course <insert eye rolling emoji>) and yet he is still forgiving and reaching out. And people still insist he's the emotionally stunted one.

I think the writers tend to write the shallow characterization for some reason can't see past Dean saying no chick flick moments. 

I have two minds about the unanswered text messages.  First, is that I wish Dean would wipe his hands off all of them and refuse to clean up their messes, but if he did that he wouldn't be Dean anymore.

One thing I wish they would do is for Dean to decide he needs space.  Let the other characters see how much they take him for granted.

[gonzosgirrl]

On 5/6/2017 at 0:05 AM, ILoveReading said:

I think the writers tend to write the shallow characterization for some reason can't see past Dean saying no chick flick moments. 

I have two minds about the unanswered text messages.  First, is that I wish Dean would wipe his hands off all of them and refuse to clean up their messes, but if he did that he wouldn't be Dean anymore.

One thing I wish they would do is for Dean to decide he needs space.  Let the other characters see how much they take him for granted.

I would consider a trip to the crossroads for this to happen. Unfortunately, with this crew, they would probably just let him go and get on with their lives.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would consider a trip to the crossroads for this to happen. Unfortunately, with this crew, they would probably just let him go and get on with their lives.

I figure if by some cross roads deal it did happens, i figure something bad would happen that will just end up piling more grief and guilt on Dean's shoulders.

[ILoveReading]

I thought to help pass the time until the new season, I thought we could do an episode by number discussion.   This is not really a ranking, or top 10 lists (although feel free to if you want), just more of a general discussion of Dean in the premier eps.

So out of episode 1

Pilot

In My Time of Dying

The Magnificent Seven

Lazarus Rising

Sympathy for the Devil

Exile on Main Street

Meet the New Boss

We Need to Talk about Kevin

I Think I'm going to Like it Here

Black

Out of the Darkness, Into the Fire

Keep Calm and Carry On

Favorite ep- Lazarus Rising.  It was such a great introduction to Dean's post hell story.  It introduced Cas, and Ive loved watching Dean's relationship with him grow.  I liked the introduction of the angels.  Jensen's acting was stellar. 

Least favorite- Magnificent Seven- Just a major let down to what should have been the start of a demon war.  I think the scope was too big for the budget and it showed.   Although, I was intrigued that even Dean seemed to be the only one not really effected by the sin who came after him. 

Top Dean moments

1. Pilot - It was a small moment, but i liked Dean's admission to that he doesn't want to do it alone when Sam tells him he can.  I also loved "Whoa, easy here Tiger." Because it was our introduction to Dean.
2. Lazarus Rising- Dean's first meeting with Cas.
3. We need to Talk About Kevin- Purgatory.  I have a lot of issues with how the storyline was handled over all but, I really liked Carver's approach that it was something Dean almost embraced.  I loved that it opened with the monsters on the run from Dean.  Plus, the introduction of Benny.
4. Black- Jensen was fantastic as Demon Dean. 
5. I think I'm going to Like it here- Jensen was just stellar this whole season.  Dean's desperation and grief were so palpable.  Plus, I got a laugh out of the scene between Dean and the grief Councillor when it was told from Her POV. 

Least favorite moment

The Magnificent Seven- What's in the Box line.  I cringed, and not even Jensen could save that line.  It just seemed so out of place.

Curious as to everyone else's thoughts on Dean in the premier eps.

Edited June 5, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I thought to help pass the time until the new season, I thought we could do an episode by number discussion.   This is not really a ranking, or top 10 lists (although feel free to if you want), just more of a general discussion of Dean in the premier eps.

So out of episode 1

Pilot

In My Time of Dying

The Magnificent Seven

Lazarus Rising

Sympathy for the Devil

Exile on Main Street

Meet the New Boss

We Need to Talk about Kevin

I Think I'm going to Like it Here

Black

Out of the Darkness, Into the Fire

Keep Calm and Carry On

Favorite ep- Lazarus Rising.  It was such a great introduction to Dean's post hell story.  It introduced Cas, and Ive loved watching Dean's relationship with him grow.  I liked the introduction of the angels.  Jensen's acting was stellar. 

Least favorite- Magnificent Seven- Just a major let down to what should have been the start of a demon war.  I think the scope was too big for the budget and it showed.   Although, I was intrigued that even Dean seemed to be the only one not really effected by the sin who came after him. 

Top Dean moments

1. Pilot - It was a small moment, but i liked Dean's admission to that he doesn't want to do it alone when Sam tells him he can.  I also loved "Whoa, easy here Tiger." Because it was our introduction to Dean.
2. Lazarus Rising- Dean's first meeting with Cas.
3. We need to Talk About Kevin- Purgatory.  I have a lot of issues with how the storyline was handled over all but, I really liked Carver's approach that it was something Dean almost embraced.  I loved that it opened with the monsters on the run from Dean.  Plus, the introduction of Benny.
4. Black- Jensen was fantastic as Demon Dean. 
5. I think I'm going to Like it here- Jensen was just stellar this whole season.  Dean's desperation and grief were so palpable.  Plus, I got a laugh out of the scene between Dean and the grief Councillor when it was told from Her POV. 

Least favorite moment

The Magnificent Seven- What's in the Box line.  I cringed, and not even Jensen could save that line.  It just seemed so out of place.

Curious as to everyone else's thoughts on Dean in the premier eps.

Favorite Ep-In My Time of Dying.  Loved pretty much everything about it.

Least Favorite-The Magnificent seven.  Not a terrible ep, just not season premiere material.

Top Dean Moments

Pilot: The bridge scene

In My Time of dying-His whole conversation with Tessa re: how he has to stay and he can't die yet.  Also loved his, "I feel like I'm at a slumber party" line

The Magnificent seven-I don't know that Dean, or really anyone, has any "great" moments in this epi.  I guess I would go with "Hello, bleeding"  But, it's just not a great episode, so not really a lot of great moments.

Lazarus Rising-I love both his reunion with Bobby and Sam.  I think I like the Bobby one better which seems wrong somehow, but there it is.

Sympaty for the Devil-Last scene when he tells Sam that he tried but he doesn't trust him anymore.

Exile on Main Street-I love the opening montage showing Dean's old life and new life

Meet the New Boss-"I don't want to hurt you."  "I'm the one with the gun, son."  "Yeah, I get that."

We Need to talk about Keivn-Whatever you thik of the episode or season as a whole, that teaser was epic.

I Think I'm Going to Like it here-More of a Sam epi, so not really a lot of great Dean moments.

Black-I'm one of the few non-lovers of Demon-Dean so I don't really like him at all in this epi.

OUt of the Darkness-I feel like he had some great moments, but can't remember any

Keep Calm and Carry On-I love his first scene with Mary.  He's just so...something that I can't even put into words.

 

Least fave Dean moment

Black when he calls Anne Marie a slut.  I know he was a demon, but I've just never understood how someone can be having sex with someone and have the hypocrisy to call that person a slut.  Dude, you're having sex with her, too.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I thought to help pass the time until the new season, I thought we could do an episode by number discussion.   This is not really a ranking, or top 10 lists (although feel free to if you want), just more of a general discussion of Dean in the premier eps.

So out of episode 1

Pilot

In My Time of Dying

The Magnificent Seven

Lazarus Rising

Sympathy for the Devil

Exile on Main Street

Meet the New Boss

We Need to Talk about Kevin

I Think I'm going to Like it Here

Black

Out of the Darkness, Into the Fire

Keep Calm and Carry On

Okay, I`ll try:

Favourite episode:   Lazarus Rising,   runner up:  In my Time of Dying

Least Favourite:  I think I`m gonna like it here - they made Death into Becky, nuff said

Best moments in each one:

Pilot - I guess the smartass moments

IMTOD - pretty much everything, the interaction with Tessa was wonderful and John finally gave him some overdue acknowledgment

Magnificent Seven - Dean had some badass moments fighting the demons here

Lazarus Rising - breaking free from his grave, the entire teaser and of course the first interaction with Cas proclaiming Dean has been saved for a task, god, I was so happy about him having a plot

Sympathy for the Devil - technically, I like him spilling some truth tea on Sam but it is much less satisfying in hindsight 

Exile on Main Street - hm, not much of a fan of this, I guess I like the moment his new friend marvels on how Dean gets hit on at every bar

Meet the new Boss - I can`t really remember that, Season 7 is so boring to me, I blocked it out

We need to talk about Kevin - the return from Purgatory

I think I`m gonna like it here - see above, urgh, Dean taking on some angels in the hospital was cool

Black - I liked Demon!Dean but I wanted powers so sigh

Out of the Darkness - every flashback scene Dean had with Amara was fantastic, I LOVED those, so much potential

Keep Calm and Carry On - him trying to convince Mary who he was, I guess, the episode was overall a real letdown 

[DeeDee79]

15 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I thought to help pass the time until the new season, I thought we could do an episode by number discussion.   This is not really a ranking, or top 10 lists (although feel free to if you want), just more of a general discussion of Dean in the premier eps.

So out of episode 1

Pilot

In My Time of Dying

The Magnificent Seven

Lazarus Rising

Sympathy for the Devil

Exile on Main Street

Meet the New Boss

We Need to Talk about Kevin

I Think I'm going to Like it Here

Black

Out of the Darkness, Into the Fire

Keep Calm and Carry On

Favorite ep- Lazarus Rising.  It was such a great introduction to Dean's post hell story.  It introduced Cas, and Ive loved watching Dean's relationship with him grow.  I liked the introduction of the angels.  Jensen's acting was stellar. 

Least favorite- Magnificent Seven- Just a major let down to what should have been the start of a demon war.  I think the scope was too big for the budget and it showed.   Although, I was intrigued that even Dean seemed to be the only one not really effected by the sin who came after him. 

Top Dean moments

1. Pilot - It was a small moment, but i liked Dean's admission to that he doesn't want to do it alone when Sam tells him he can.  I also loved "Whoa, easy here Tiger." Because it was our introduction to Dean.
2. Lazarus Rising- Dean's first meeting with Cas.
3. We need to Talk About Kevin- Purgatory.  I have a lot of issues with how the storyline was handled over all but, I really liked Carver's approach that it was something Dean almost embraced.  I loved that it opened with the monsters on the run from Dean.  Plus, the introduction of Benny.
4. Black- Jensen was fantastic as Demon Dean. 
5. I think I'm going to Like it here- Jensen was just stellar this whole season.  Dean's desperation and grief were so palpable.  Plus, I got a laugh out of the scene between Dean and the grief Councillor when it was told from Her POV. 

Least favorite moment

The Magnificent Seven- What's in the Box line.  I cringed, and not even Jensen could save that line.  It just seemed so out of place.

Curious as to everyone else's thoughts on Dean in the premier eps.

Hmm...

Favorite Dean premier: Lazarus Rising. The entire sequence from him awakening in the coffin & clawing his way out, his reunion with Bobby and Sam & first meeting with Castiel makes this my favorite premier and one of my overall favorite Dean episodes.

Least favorite: Keep Calm and Carry On. Watching Dean who is an experienced, badsass hunter get his ass handed to him by Lady Toni's henchwoman set the tone for the suckfest that was season 12.

Top Dean Moments:

Pilot: The opener with Dean & Sam's interaction in his apartment.

In My Time Of Dying: Dean's scene with Tessa where he's going through the 5 stages after he's realized that he can't run from his reaper any longer.

Lazurus Rising: The entire opening sequence had me hooked without any dialogue whatsoever. We can feel Dean's confusion and wariness the entire time from his emergence from his grave up to his scenes in the convenience store without having to be told.

Sympathy For The Devil:  Dean held strong after everything that had happened leading up to this ep and we got one of my fav Dean lines: "But what I do have is a GED and a give-'em-hell attitude, and I'll figure it out."

Least Favorite: The Magnificient Seven and the "what's in the box?" line. I agree, even Jensen couldn't save that clunky line.

[PAForrest]

22 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Pilot

In My Time of Dying

The Magnificent Seven

Lazarus Rising

Sympathy for the Devil

Exile on Main Street

Meet the New Boss

We Need to Talk about Kevin

I Think I'm going to Like it Here

Black

Out of the Darkness, Into the Fire

Keep Calm and Carry On

Favorite ep-

Least favorite-

Top Dean moments

Least favorite moment

Nice to see a little Dean discussion here.

Favorite premiere for Dean - tie between In My Time ... and Lazarus Rising. Everything between Dean/Tessa and Dean/John was pure emotional magic, as was Sam being singularly focused on and broken up about Dean, angry with John about it, and wanting to do everything he could to save Dean.

In Lazarus Rising the entire sequence with Dean crawling out of the grave and trying to find his way back was brilliant, as was his introduction to Castiel.

Least favorite - Keep Calm and ... suck. Dabb made it clear in that episode that Dean was going to be useless as tits on a bull in his vision, and he pretty much stuck to that all season long.  Just nine kinds of awful, as was season 12.

Top Dean moments - certainly those I already mentioned from the season 2 & 4 premieres; everything to do with Demon Dean and his interactions with Crowley, especially for as brief as they were; Dean really trying desperately to play at a normal life in Exile ... and being angry with Bobby and Sam for lying to him for a year; post-Purgatory Dean in We Need to Talk ... and the introduction of Dean's friendship with Benny; and Dean dealing with angry angels in quintessential Dean fashion in I Think I'm ... Those are just the ones that come to mind right now.

Least favorite Dean moments - did I mention season 12? Pretty much everything in that premiere. And like Aeryn I honestly can't remember much of anything about the season 7 premiere, so that whole thing is a wash too.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Least favorite Dean moments - did I mention season 12? Pretty much everything in that premiere. And like Aeryn I honestly can't remember much of anything about the season 7 premiere, so that whole thing is a wash too.

There was one good thing in the S12 premiere:

Dean: Mom, I get it. I do. If I had kids, I wouldn't want them in this. But Sam and me... saving people and hunting things, this is our life. I think we make the world a better place. I know that we do.

In fact if there was one good thing about this entire season, it was Dean's reaffirmation of his belief in the family business and their value to/in the world.

[gonzosgirrl]

Hands down my favourite premier: In My Time of Dying. It's definitely my most re-watched premier and probably in the top 3 most re-watched episodes, period. As latecomer to the series and newly minted fan, I saw Devil's Trap and IMTOD back-to-back, and it cemented Dean as an all-time favourite TV character, and Jensen as one of my favourite actors. So much to love about his performance, I could wax poetic about the whole thing, so I'll just mention one smaller moment - the disbelief on his face and in his voice when he asks John if it's really him talking, because he simply can't believe his father would thank him, be proud of him. Combined with just having seen him know John was possessed because he didn't 'tear him a new one' for wasting a bullet to save Sam...  he knocked my socks off.

Least favourite: Keep Calm & Carry On. I hated seeing Dean get his ass handed to him by the hench-bitch, and then have to be saved by Mary. I didn't like it on first watch because I feared it was setting the tone for the season, and IMO, I was right.

I have some favourite moments from each, but not enough time right now to answer them all. I'll add to the list as I am able, but for now:

Pilot - "Easy there, tiger" goes without saying. And of course "Driver picks the music..."

In My Time of Dying - The scene I mentioned above of course, and his interaction with Tessa. Even near death and a spirit himself, his first instinct is to help her. And I loved everything about the communication/connection with Sam in this episode.

[PAForrest]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There was one good thing in the S12 premiere:

Dean: Mom, I get it. I do. If I had kids, I wouldn't want them in this. But Sam and me... saving people and hunting things, this is our life. I think we make the world a better place. I know that we do.

In fact if there was one good thing about this entire season, it was Dean's reaffirmation of his belief in the family business and their value to/in the world.

Yeah, I'll give you that much. It was a good line, and it certainly speaks to the man we know Dean Winchester to be, always.

Unfortunately for most of the season, short of Dean saying as much there, the on-screen mandate played out very differently, giving us instead a Dean Winchester who suddenly didn't seem to know how to do anything or know how to take charge most weeks, as if he hadn't been doing this all his life. He just wasn't given much opportunity to save people and hunt things in season 12.

I don't want lip service to the belief - I want my proactive badass Dean Winchester back again, please. 100%. When we have this Dean, honestly, I'm hard-pressed to pick favorite moments and scenes because I love them all when Dean is truly allowed to be the character he's supposed to be.

[catrox14]

1) S4 Lazarus Rising (also in my top 10 eps of all time)-  Iconic game changing episode that altered the course of the show forever in the best way IMO. There is not a moment in this episode that I don't love Jensen's work. Not one false note IMO. It's not just the fantastic 6 minute opening which is a dialogue free acting tour de force by Jensen IMO but every other subtle expression, reaction, with a little bit of underplayed comic moments when he reunites with Bobby and Sam, and meeting Pamela. And then on the opposite side, the terror behind Dean's eyes about what he really remembers. The closeup on his eyes as he's looking around in terror when he's being rescued by Castiel?  GTFO with that brilliance! How does he do that?  And IMO he was kind of scary when he slapped the demon waitress at the diner. (In retrospect, was that a little hint of 'Torturer!Dean :(:( ? ). And his meeting Castiel for the first time Just I can't even express it's brilliance. Just fucking fantastic and all the awards to Jensen for this episode. 

2) S10:  Black - Controversial and likely UO pick but seeing him be so completely different as demon!Dean, and I don't just mean his hair style. Dean was different and it especially showed IMO with his scene with Ann Marie. I do think it was fleshed out better in Riechenbach and Soul Survivor (which BTW, how did he play demon!Dean's demise in the episode he directed first before they filmed Black and Riechenbach) 

3) S2 In My Time of Dying - For all the reasons everyone else picks it LOL.

4) S8 We Need To Talk About Kevin - Again, a different kind of Dean. Hard, edgy. Just not right. Dean even walked differently after Purgatory. He walked with his head up and his shoulders back, with purpose. Whereas Dean in most other cases, has a slight hunch in his stance especially once he is out and about on a hunt. I don't mean he's like the hunchback of Notre Dame but there is a difference in how he carries himself.

5) S9 I Think I'm Gonna Like it Here : I don't really LIKE this episode overall but I think it's one of Jensen's best performances with all that he had to do with playing desperate-to-save-Sam!Dean, worried-BFF!Dean, coma!Dean, already-rueful-he-knows-he-done-fucked-up-by-letting-Gadreel-possess-Sam!Dean. 
6) S1  - Pilot - Good introduction to Dean. I loved the subtle shift from cocky!Dean to being kind of worried about himself when he's being held by the sheriff. Right then and there, you could seen there was a vulnerability to Dean that IMO was unexpected.

7) S5 Sympathy for the Devil

8) S7  Meet the New Boss

9)  s3 - Magnificent Seven

10) S6 - Exile on Main Street

11) s11 - Out of the Darkness

12) s12 - Keep Calm and Carry On

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

@catrox14 you got me thinking about Demon Dean (thank you... and curse you!) and how incredible Jensen was. I never really thought about him filming his demise first - makes it even more amazing. I will always lament that he wasn't able to give us more of this:

This whole scene is pure gold. Going from meh, killed a scumbag, go me! to scary mofo who knocks the KoH on his ass...  His 'Or what?' is awesomely menacing. Probably my favourite DD line of the arc though: "You're the guy who's supposed to put a bullet in Sammy's brain. Did you miss?"

Edited June 8, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

23 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This whole scene is pure gold. Going from meh, killed a scumbag, go me! to scary mofo who knocks the Koh on his ass...  Hi 'Or what?' is awesomely menacing. Probably my favourite DD line of the arc though: "You're the guy who's supposed to put a bullet in Sammy's brain. Did you miss?"

Maannnn, Riechenbach is just when demon!Dean was becoming awesomely scary. There should have been at least ONE more episode of him and Crowley going toe to toe, not because Demon Dean wanted to be KoH but just because he could fuck it up for Crowley. What better vengeance could Dean have gotten on Crowley for luring him into taking on the Mark, than cause him problems in Hell.

Or make it so that Crowley kept trying to give Demon Dean a chance because we all know Crowley loved Dean. And then when he said,"You're not relationship material", I would have bought it much more.

Instead of stupid Paper Moon, why not give us one more episode where Dean gets out of the bunker and goes after Crowley for turning him over to Sam and then Sam and Cas capture him again and they finish the cure. Make it so that a partially cured demon!Dean wants to stay a demon because he doesn't have to deal with his issues that came out about John, which matched up with Dean's dream-walk battle with himself in s3. Dean clearly has unresolved issues with John and that needs to get addressed.   Honestly, when they had Dean talk about John like he did in s10, that's one of the major reasons I really thought he would have been who Amara brought back. Not Mary...cause IMO, Dean resolved his feelings about Mary YEARS ago  (just another reason I hated Mary being brought back).

[MysteryGuest]

This should probably go in the Unpopular Opinions thread, but am I the only one who has no need for John to come back?  To me, his story is done.  I don't need him to come back just so Dean can tell him how much he screwed him up.  I won't be surprised if we see him in the final episodes of the series, but I could easily live without it.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

This should probably go in the Unpopular Opinions thread, but am I the only one who has no need for John to come back?  To me, his story is done.  I don't need him to come back just so Dean can tell him how much he screwed him up.  I won't be surprised if we see him in the final episodes of the series, but I could easily live without it.

I'll actually be pissed off if Dean and John never have the conversation where Dean tells John where to get off and how much he damaged him. Even though I don't think the show had much support for the SL that Dean hated Mary and needed to forgive her, they did it. But John screwed up Dean's life far worse than Mary. John parentified Dean, not Mary. So for me, that has to happen. I'll settle for one episode of JDM and Jensen going toe to toe, if that's all I can get.