Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

In terms of Jensen`s portrayal, in the occasional scene/episode he still perks up but overall I`m not sure he could do anything differently. If he isn`t in scenesto begin with or doesn`t do or say anything noteworthy, then there is nothing even the actor can do. 

Yeah, this is why it makes me wish they would just end things. If the writing has gotten so bad that even Jensen can no longer elevate it, than it's time, IMO. I felt similarly at the end of S8, too.

[catrox14]

The biggest issue I have with Dean arc is that I don't see his purpose this season.

At times it seems his arc to tell the deconstruction of Mythological Mary story which doesn't really make sense as an arc for him given the stated premise of Mary's resurrection was to be a "gift" for Dean.

IMO, it's almost a bait and switch in order to tell Dabb's BIGGER ARCHETYPAL story about mythologized motherhood as it relates specifically to sons and their not being able to see beyond "MOM", and for those sons to  acknowledge that women who are mothers are also full, complex people with lives beyond "MOM" which in an of itself is not a bad concept.

IMO, Dabb chose Dean because he has memories of Mary from childhood, hence the focus on Dean being shown to think about her from his childhood pictures.

The reason it does NOT work for me, is that it requires the writers to conveniently disregard the canon fact that Dean has recent profound and powerful actual literal interaction with Young Mary, who was shown to be this complete young woman, who was trying to survive and made a choice that altered their entire lives.There is no evidence that Dean doesn't remember any of that. And it's even more problematic because Dean told Mary about her life in 12.01. It also ignores that Dean spent a year with a mother who was his live in girlfriend, and her son. A woman who fully was a complete person (at least in s3) beyond being a mother.  Lisa in s6 was less so but my point stands that Dean didn't see her as JUST A MOM IMO.

IMO, they needed on some level for Dean to be regressed in order to get to this moment in The Raid for Dean to be made to seem that he was really only ever upset with Mary because he had some latent need for Mary to kiss him goodnight and make him sammiches and soup.

I can also understand the reading that this was also supposed to show Mary possibly misunderstanding Dean and not seeing Dean for who he is but IMO the staging of that final scene and Mary's almost smug response to his apparent contrition, doesn't leave me particularly convinced that was the case.

Whether intentional or inadvertently, IMO, it results in undermining Dean's newfound willingness to just own his rightful anger with Mary.

As to Dean seeming disconnected, I think he is. I think he's resigned himself to this situation because he doesn't want to lose his family.

I'm TRYING to remain hopeful that they chose this path for Dean to eventually get him back to that newfound willingness to state his mind and choose his path by some wake up call that does not require him to be contrite in order to do so. 

[catrox14]

ETA: I also understand that Dean was made to say that he has to accept other people's decisions, which I also think is a lot of BS, because he's always accepted others decision, like it or not.

MY GRAND HOPE is maybe this will send Dean to a place where maybe the lesson Dean will learn is that he will need to go be on his own for his well-being. However my hope is tempered by my fear that Dean making that choice to go be on his own will result in something horrible happening to one of his loved ones because he decided to take care of himself.

[Dobian]

I don't know, I think you can overanalyze this stuff to death, but Dean and his mom are pretty much written per standard tropes without a lot of deep thinking by the writers, from what I can see.  Their mom and son story has been told a million times (and mostly better) in other shows and movies and books.  I've never thought of Supernatural as a show built around deep character and relationship studies, it's a cheesy paranormal action show with some very engaging and charismatic cast members that makes the show fun to watch.  I've lost count of the number of scenes between Sam and Dean alone where they are having some issue or another, and I'm like, "Come on!".  Actually the show is at its weakest when it starts to take itself too seriously and we get the aforementioned, "But I was in Hell all those months and you never looked for me!" conversations.  Eeeokay, the fact that you're on a show where you have the nutty premise of people actually popping in and out of Hell kind of overrides the family drama of  "...you never looked for me!".

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I don't know, I think you can overanalyze this stuff to death, but Dean and his mom are pretty much written per standard tropes without a lot of deep thinking by the writers, from what I can see.  Their mom and son story has been told a million times (and mostly better) in other shows and movies and books.  I've never thought of Supernatural as a show built around deep character and relationship studies, it's a cheesy paranormal action show with some very engaging and charismatic cast members that makes the show fun to watch.  I've lost count of the number of scenes between Sam and Dean alone where they are having some issue or another, and I'm like, "Come on!".  Actually the show is at its weakest when it starts to take itself too seriously and we get the aforementioned, "But I was in Hell all those months and you never looked for me!" conversations.  Eeeokay, the fact that you're on a show where you have the nutty premise of people actually popping in and out of Hell kind of overrides the family drama of  "...you never looked for me!".

thats a really interesting take because I've always seen the show as being a family drama masquerading as a horror show.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

DOES Sam know how the BMOL got the Colt?  I can't stomach a re-watch, but I don't seem to remember Mary admitting to him that she stole it from Ramiel. 

I don't remember the specifics either, but Sam did find out in The Raid that the mission to the Lake house (RIP Wally) was to get the Colt.

[DittyDotDot]

Mary says she stole it from Ramiel in The Raid:

Quote

Sam: Kill? Doubt it. Hurt? Maybe. You got anything stronger? 
Mary: Where is it? 
Mick lifts a case onto the table [ Case thuds, latches open ] 
Sam: [ Exhales sharply ] [ Exhales sharply ] Where'd you get this?
Mary: I stole it. From Ramiel.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Mary says she stole it from Ramiel in The Raid:

Thanks for this.

So that leads me to think Dean doesn't know this happened because I just can't see a situation where Dean is not going to give Mary an even further piece of his mind over this weapon. Yes I do think it has that much value to Dean's entire history.

Of course, now that I've said that, I guess I'll reverse my hope and settle in for an expectation that this will actually end as Dean isn't even angry anymore and probably amped up to  "FUCK YEAH, Mom's a badass, she stole the Colt.. I really can see that happening.

Sigh.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not sure there's any deeper meaning to Dean's role this season.  The stories are still ongoing, so we don't know how it's going to end.  We have the BMOL, Cas' adventures in Heaven, the Princes of Hell and Lucifer to contend with, so I'm going to assume Dean will play a role in the resolution of some or all of those storylines.  Whether he will "get the kill" is yet to be determined, but that's not something I normally care about.  I just want some good episodes to end the season.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not sure there's any deeper meaning to Dean's role this season.  The stories are still ongoing, so we don't know how it's going to end.  We have the BMOL, Cas' adventures in Heaven, the Princes of Hell and Lucifer to contend with, so I'm going to assume Dean will play a role in the resolution of some or all of those storylines.  Whether he will "get the kill" is yet to be determined, but that's not something I normally care about.  I just want some good episodes to end the season.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by there not being in deeper meaning to Dean's role.

Tonight will be the 18th ep of the 23 ep season. That's 5 episodes for them to explain what Dean's purpose is this season other than to support Mary's mytharc. It doesn't leave me feeling great about it unless it's all a setup to something in s13. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by catrox14

[Dobian]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

thats a really interesting take because I've always seen the show as being a family drama masquerading as a horror show.

I think it was Brandon Tartikoff who once said that you should be able to describe any show in a single blurb.  For this one, I imagined them sitting around a conference room and someone piped in with, "Paranormal Dukes of Hazzard!".

Edited April 13, 2017 by Dobian

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I think it was Brandon Tartikoff who once said that you should be able to describe any show in a single blurb.  For this one, I imagined them sitting around a conference room and someone piped in with, "Paranormal Dukes of Hazzard!".

Aww, the boys are smarter than those numbnuts.

[Dobian]

My main problem with Mary is, she was supposed to be 29 when she died, and in the Dean time travel episode she was played by a young actress.  So how come Mary looks like she's in her 40s now?  Did they deliberately hire an older actress who looked mom-like?  Maybe I missed the memo on this one.  But I would have liked to see a Mary who looked younger than Sam and Dean, which would have been a lot more accurate and would have made the awkwardness of her being their mom more interesting.  Instead they went for milfy.

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, Dobian said:

My main problem with Mary is, she was supposed to be 29 when she died, and in the Dean time travel episode she was played by a young actress.  So how come Mary looks like she's in her 40s now?  Did they deliberately hire an older actress who looked mom-like?  Maybe I missed the memo on this one.  But I would have liked to see a Mary who looked younger than Sam and Dean, which would have been a lot more accurate and would have made the awkwardness of her being their mom more interesting.  Instead they went for milfy.

Many of us have the same disconnect.  They are using the same actress that played her in the teaser and a few subsequent episodes.  The actress was in her mid 30s at the time and wasn't supposed to be around that long, so it was fine. But, 12 years later, she's near 50, and looks nowhere near the 30 years she should be.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by there not being in deeper meaning to Dean's role.

I mean I don't think there's any specific plot reason why Dean seems to be a bit of a bystander this season.  I just think it's 1) Sam's turn and 2) bad writing.  I'm hoping that as we end the season, we get some stronger episodes.  And I will assume that Dean will be a part of whatever resolutions come in these last episodes.

[ILoveReading]

This episode answered my question.  Those little touches were added by Jensen since he has nothing else to do.   I don't think its leading anywhere.  Dean's role this season is just to take up space.

[Dobian]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Many of us have the same disconnect.  They are using the same actress that played her in the teaser and a few subsequent episodes.  The actress was in her mid 30s at the time and wasn't supposed to be around that long, so it was fine. But, 12 years later, she's near 50, and looks nowhere near the 30 years she should be.

Yeah I didn't even remember it was the same actress.  They should have recast it, the character wasn't supposed to have aged.

[SueB]

Based on past history, I'm less inclined to think it's "Jensen is tired" and more inclined to think this is intentional.  

Backstory: In S10, I thought Dean was showing a more "openness". A willingness to express his feelings.  This was coming on the heels of the episode where he's in the confessional and seems to let his 'hair down'.  So, at the following MinnCon, I asked him if S10 represented Dean being more comfortable with Sam and expressing his feelings.  His response, my to my embarrassment, was 'That was the Dean sliding towards becoming a demon again.' He went on further to explain that Dean being so open was Dean not giving a shit about what other people thought.  I was stunned.  I hadn't seen this progression and felt bad because he was putting in a level of performance that I missed.  We had quite the discussion on it at the time here.  Many felt that if it's something that doesn't come across just by what we see on the screen, then it 'didn't happen' -- that we shouldn't rely on off-screen info to tell us what is happening.  That's okay, I'm the person who watched all 11+ hours of the Lord of the Rings Extended Edition special features - INCLUDING flipping through the photos.  So, with that preface,  I rewatched S10 with the 'demon influence' in mind and I could see what Jensen was doing SO CLEARLY. I chalked up my mis-read to me seeing what I wanted to see (more openness in Dean).  

Now apply that "lessons learned" (for me) to S12:
- In 12.1-12.2 Dean openly admits he's unbelievably happy with Mary's return. EP 12.2 But at the end, after the "I don't cook", we see Dean drunk (per Jensen, Dean was drunk in that scene) sitting in the kitchen, relooking at childhood memories rather than talking to Mary.  My interpretation: Dean is realizing his Mom is not the woman he idolized and he's kinda saying goodbye to that notion.
- In 12.3, he's delighted by everything he and Mary have in common - junk food, loud music. My interpretation: Dean is trying to figure out who Mary is and he's trying to make connections. Later, in 12.3 Mary leaves and Dean just SHUTS DOWN.  My interpretation: He was okay with re-discovering a new Mom, but now she's rejected both he and Sam.  He heard, loud and clear, Mary's disappointment in them hunting.  He thought her 'getting back up onto the hunting horse' was something he could relate to.  But now she's running away FROM THEM.  He's just gutted.  
- In 12.4, Sam gives him the "it's not about you, she's traumatized speech."  And Dean asks Mary "should I call you Mary." And is delighted when she said to cal her Mom.  My interpretation: Dean is really floundering on what Mary wants but is still emotionally so attached -- his mood rises and falls with her texts. 
- 12.5 Dean flat out acknowledges he's sublimating his issues by hunting.  
- 12.6 Dean leaves the room after giving Mary some shit about not contacting them.  Mary refuses to kill herself so Billie can reap her. This seems to cheer Dean and Sam up some.  My interpretation: Dean gets just how traumatized Mary is and he's both worried but also understands a bit more. 
-12.7 Words with friends. My interpretation: Steady-state.
-12.8 Mary isn't even mentioned. Steady state. 
-12.9 Mary helps to rescue the boys.  Then she almost kills herself to save them from dying.  Cas kills Billie instead.  We don't actually SEE the fallout from the boys about Mary's offer.  My interpretation: Dean gets Mary is ready to die and this was an natural instinctive move. But Mary STILL leaves. I'm guessing that doesn't go unnoticed.
12.10 Dean expresses concern that Mary is off hunting by herself. Sam pacifies.  My interpretation: It stings she's off on her own. She's keeping contact but still distant.
12.11 Only mention of Mary is indicates they are still in contact. My interpretation: Steady-state
12.12 Big hunt together. Cas nearly dies. Sam and Dean don't know Mary has been working with BMoL. They seem comfortable with her but she also rejects Sam's attempt at "checking in."  My interpretation (again, for Dean): Mary both shows her skills and her naivete in getting in over her head.  Dean is likely worried about her approach to hunting. 
12.13 Shit hits the fan about Mary & the BMoL. Just a teaser. My interpretation: Dean is closed off (bodylanguage) and hurt.
12.14 Sam and Dean freeze Mary out for 3 days after Dean opened a can of emotional whoopass on Mary, including calling her "Mary" and throwing her out of the bunker. When he realizes Mary is at risk, he drops everything to get to her. He offers an unnecessary apology to her incorrectly perceived slight.  And wants her to be "Mom" again.  My interpretation: Dean realizes he's "Love's Bitch" (TM Spike), in this case it's for familial love.  Dean simply cannot turn his back on his Mom.  He's still VERY HURT but swallows his hurt to reconnect to her.  It's not a great moment for Dean.  He's basically acknowledging that he'll take her scraps rather than freeze her out.  But Dean's initial fight with Mary shows how he's feeling not just abandoned, but rejected, by her.  So Dean's pretty self-aware as well as spot-on with regards to Mary's distance. 
12.15 Casual mention by her, but this time it's Sam keeping in touch with his Mom.  My interpretation: Detente w/ Mary.  Dean's still hurt but pretending it's okay.
12.16 Not sure if Mary is even mentioned. My interpretation: The longer the detente w/ Mary goes on, the worse Dean is feeling.  
12. 17 Mention of Mary working with Ketch and that this is a concern to Dean. My interpretation: Dean's recognizing she'd rather work with that psycho than them.  That's yet another hurt.  
12.18 Ketch mentions he'd rather be working with Mary. Dean slacks off a bit on the case to sleep with a random waitress.  Could be par for the course, could be seeking comfort.  My interpretation: Ketch's comments are more salt in an open wound. Dean finds Ketch creepy.
 

Bottom Line: Dean is getting more and more morose about Mary.  She doesn't want to live. She's rejected them. She wants to be their Mom in "name only."  She'd rather work with psycho Ketch than her boys.  When he sees her again I expect:
- Some initial attempt at pleasantries
- Snide comments about her working partner choices
- An eventual blow-up from Dean AT Mary.
So, IMO, far from Dean being 'disconnected', what were seeing is Dean hiding his despair over Mary's choices.  He IS going through the motions because he doesn't know what to do.  His heart still wants her to love them but the longer it goes on, the worse he's going to be.  

[rue721]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

 My interpretation: Dean realizes he's "Love's Bitch" (TM Spike), in this case it's for familial love.  Dean simply cannot turn his back on his Mom.  He's still VERY HURT but swallows his hurt to reconnect to her.  It's not a great moment for Dean.  He's basically acknowledging that he'll take her scraps rather than freeze her out.  But Dean's initial fight with Mary shows how he's feeling not just abandoned, but rejected, by her.  So Dean's pretty self-aware as well as spot-on with regards to Mary's distance. 

This is almost definitely an UO, but I think that Dean deciding to put everything else aside to make sure she's OK was really natural and not a bad thing at all (not bad for Dean, and not even for his and Mary's relationship). It's not like Dean would be LESS hurt or upset if he didn't help and she got into serious trouble (or god forbid, died). If anything, I would think it would be EMPOWERING for him to even be in the position to be able to help her.

I mean, this is a woman who died right at home with her family while they were helpless to stop it. If anything, you'd think that they would ALL be really chomping at the bit to not be helpless and to actually protect/help/save her this time around.

I don't begrudge Mary for needing help, either. That's what family's for.

Also, I think it's natural that it would be the "child" (grown child) helping the parent instead of the other way around at this stage of Sam and Dean's lives. Mary might be kind of childlike still, etc, but THEY are grown. Of course now that they are, they're going to be the ones to take care of their family -- including their mother.

I mostly just took Dean's speech to her at the end as acknowledgement that he does 100% consider her family. Despite the betrayal. Which I think is a good thing! I think it's good that he's apparently still game for a relationship and maybe/probably still appreciates her coming back as an opportunity and a gift.

[SueB]

@rue721 I was hoping that was Dean's attitude, regarding Mary, but she's still staying away.  So, it's not getting better IMO.  I still think he's going to blow. 

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, rue721 said:

This is almost definitely an UO, but I think that Dean deciding to put everything else aside to make sure she's OK was really natural and not a bad thing at all (not bad for Dean, and not even for his and Mary's relationship).

It might be something Dean is apt to do because that is who he has become over the years, but the problem I have with it is why did they spend so much time on Dean's frame of mind and anger with her only to essentially be framed as being "wrong" for having that anger towards her maltreatment of them.

That's the part that makes me side-eye whether this is something wonderfully naturally and right and good for Dean vs him being rightfully angry with her.

It's not as though Dean abandoned HER. She walked away from THEM. 

I guess for me it's just really damn sad, that Dean doesn't really get the same in return from Mary. And just because Mary IS is parental unit, it doesn't mean he has to let her stay in his life if she is constantly hurting him. IMO, all the "steady-state" as Sue calls it, is really Dean IMO swallowing his emotions and needs aside.

If Dean could have been shown to understand Mary's state of existence and have a conversation with her about it AND not be made to be contrite for his emotions and feelings I would feel a lot better that this is good for him.

21 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Also, I think it's natural that it would be the "child" (grown child) helping the parent instead of the other way around at this stage of Sam and Dean's lives. Mary might be kind of childlike still, etc, but THEY are grown. Of course now that they are, they're going to be the ones to take care of their family -- including their mother.

I do not see Mary as childlike at all. She came back as the same woman she was when she died. She is NOT older than them and she is NOT their child. She had to adapt to a new era as a 30 year old woman. She seems to have done pretty well on that front.

Mary has largely rejected any help they offered and she is continuing to make her own decisions and it seems clear to me she intends to keep on doing that.

So I'm just not sure how that is good for Dean to keep trying to get her to accept their help or spend time with them.

[rue721]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

@rue721 I was hoping that was Dean's attitude, regarding Mary, but she's still staying away.  So, it's not getting better IMO.  I still think he's going to blow. 

When he was talking to her at the BMOL HQ, though, it seemed to me that he was telling her straight up that he loved her unconditionally. He made a choice to.

So of course it hasn't been and won't be an easy road, but I think he's committed -- so he's able to take the long view, and keep on going over the bumps in the road. I don't think he's getting ready to blow. To give what I'm seeing the most negative spin I can get on board with, IMO he's resigned.

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

the problem I have with it is why did they spend so much time on Dean's frame of mind and anger with her only to essentially be framed as being "wrong" for having that anger towards her maltreatment of them.

I don't think it was reframed that way. YMMV.

How I saw it:  Dean was upset, he thought about things and came to a decision about how he was going to move forward, and since then, he's been moving forward.

I'm not seeing the judgement on his feelings that you're seeing, not from within the show and not in a more meta way, either. Again YMMV.

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I do not see Mary as childlike at all. She came back as the same woman she was when she died. She is NOT older than them and she is NOT their child. She had to adapt to a new era as a 30 year old woman. She seems to have done pretty well on that front.

IMO she seems pretty adolescent. All this sneaking around, bad judgement, falling in with the wrong crowd, doubling down on being part of that "wrong crowd" by getting into an ill-advised "relationship" with one of the (sketchiest) guys in it...That all reads as so teenager-y IMO.

I don't think she's done well at adapting AT ALL. She hasn't gotten very far in making a new life for herself. No real friends or other nourishing relationships, no hobbies or anything else to give her pleasure, no real curiosity or exploration of the new world, no home, nothing. And IMO she fell in with the BMOL because they offered her guidance and structure and worth when she didn't feel she had any. Which also comes off as very adolescent to me.

Like I said before, I think that in order for her to actually move on, she'll probably have to let her old life go, and that will mean letting Sam and Dean go. If she were stronger, that wouldn't have to be the case, but I don't think she has the strength to be both who she was (before she died) and who she's going to be (now that she's been reborn) at the same time.

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So I'm just not sure how that is good for Dean to keep trying to get her to accept their help or spend time with them.

What would be better? Giving up on her, abandoning her, cutting her off, etc, all would result in pain, too. IMO it's pretty plausible that it would be significantly LESS painful to keep up a difficult, complicated relationship with her than to not have any relationship with her at all. And she is clearly lost and needs help, too, regardless of what she says or even thinks, so abandoning her is also not necessarily an option ethically, either, IMO. 

This is exactly the same choice that Dean made with John, as well, so I consider it very in-character for Dean -- and IMO despite all the issues that he has had with John since John's death, I don't think he ever actually regretted not cutting John off and just abandoning him to his fate.

Honestly, I don't think it's surprising or even that notable that he's willing to accept an imperfect relationship. Especially since (it seems to me that) it's imperfect because Mary is screwed up, misguided, and maybe even flat out weak -- but not because she's *bad* or sadistic. She's frustrating but not unforgivable, IMO. I think it would be a shame if Dean dipped out because his mom is a screw up. Her being a screw up doesn't make a relationship with her worthless. As always, YMMV.

[catrox14]

Just now, rue721 said:

IMO she seems pretty adolescent. All this sneaking around, bad judgement, falling in with the wrong crowd, doubling down on being part of that "wrong crowd" by getting into an ill-advised "relationship" with one of the (sketchiest) guys in it...That all reads as so teenager-y IMO

This is probably why we don't really agree about Mary. I don't see her as an adolescent, so I'm not going to give her any kind of pass for behaving like an adolescent. 

IMO, Mary is behaving as an adult who has decided this path is the a practical, logical choice to rid the world of monsters for the sake of her boys. And joining up with the BMoL to do it. Parents don't tell their children everything they do, so to me Mary not telling them is just her being a liar and not because she's behaving like an adolescent. She was 29 when she died and was the mother of two young children.  I don't think her sleeping with Ketch is adolescent behavior, either. IMO. It's just stupid given who he is.

[rue721]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see her as an adolescent, so I'm not going to give her any kind of pass for behaving like an adolescent. 

I don't understand what you mean here?

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I don't understand what you mean here?

It seems like you're more tolerant of Mary's behavior since you see her as behaving in an adolescent manner.

[Mick Lady]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Dabb chose Dean because he has memories of Mary from childhood, hence the focus on Dean being shown to think about her from his childhood pictures.

I totally agree with this. In "The Road" when The Boys were in Heaven, one of Dean's fondest memories were of his Mom making him (a sandwich? I forget.), but he certainly had very fond memories of his Mom. He put his Mom on a pedestal, and now it's crumbling. That's a hard thing to face, even as an adult. I agree with catrox, their showing us Dean's disillusionment, and he's not handling it well.

Edit to add, as usual, SueB said it so much better than I.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Mick Lady

[Mick Lady]

When push comes to shove, Amara didn't do Dean any favors.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I totally agree with this. In "The Road" when The Boys were in Heaven, one of Dean's fondest memories were of his Mom making him (a sandwich? I forget.), but he certainly had very fond memories of his Mom. He put his Mom on a pedestal, and now it's crumbling. That's a hard thing to face, even as an adult. I agree with catrox, their showing us Dean's disillusionment, and he's not handling it well.

I just meant more that Dabb chose because Sam didn't have the memories. If Sam had those memories IMO this would be his role.

Just to be clear, I don't think Dean is disillusioned about Mary because he put her on a pedestal, because I don't think he did.  The show can repeat this mantra all they want but I don't think that has been shown to be the case, especially after he met Young Mary like I mentioned above.

I don't think looking at the handful of the only pictures he has which are him as a 4 year old and her  = putting Mary on a pedestal.  IMO, Putting Mary on a pedestal would be Dean never thinking she had any flaws nor made any mistakes and he knows precisely what she did in the past that took her off that pedestal. IMO he never put her back after that.  So for me this is all just a big exercise built on a false premise.   Dean seeing Mary in Heaven IMO is not putting her on a pedestal either. It's more a young man who misses his mom and still misses her.

[Mick Lady]

Good points catrox. I just read your post to Mick, and we're off...!

Gotta admit, how many shows after 12 years can instigate so many fascinating discussions!

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Her being a screw up doesn't make a relationship with her worthless.

He is not getting anything remotely positive out of it so what makes it worthwhile? I don`t see why the character shouldn`t even be allowed to cut dead weight. 

Quote

This episode answered my question.  Those little touches were added by Jensen since he has nothing else to do.   I don't think its leading anywhere.  Dean's role this season is just to take up space.

I agree. I do not see anything indicating a spiral, the character has just magically become inept at everything. And even IF there was a reason for it, I wouldn`t care because it is wholly unsatisfying to watch.    

[ILoveReading]

The thing is I could buy Dean being upset about Mary not being the Mary of his memories.   I thought that might be the direction the show was taking when we saw Dean sitting on the kitchen floor drinking.  But he seemed to shake that off pretty quick.  The next episode, he got something he wanted, a family hunting trip.  Even if part of him knew that Mary was struggling and he didn't want to admit it, he tried to make her feel accepted.  It seemed like he was trying to adjust his expectations. 

When Mary walked away, Dean was hurt, but he didn't fall back into his pattern of self-destructive behaviors.   He didn't mope around, or drink heavily or get reckless on hunts.  In fact he was almost the opposite, and early season Dean was far closer to pre-hell Dean than I've ever seen him.  He had confidence and took charge, was smart and capable on hunts.  It was the one aspect of the season I was really enjoying.

I saw no signs of depression in Dean.

If I am supposed to be seeing a Dean whose on the verge of a break down the writers are failing because there are no signs.  Other than The Raid, the only time there was heavy drinking was a over a night of bonding with Mick. Repo Man was on a local channel the other day, and there was a scene in that ep that really got to me.  Dean has just woken up and is staring at nothing.  I can almost see the thoughts in this head of him wondering if there was any point in getting out of bed.  When Dean is being held captive in Captives and Thin Man its almost disturbing to watch just how dead inside he looks.  He didn't even flinch in that scene in Thin Man where they almost cut his throat.  I knew what the writers were aiming for.  I don't here. 

I want to believe there is something going on with Dean, but even if they're is, its gone on too long with no hints.  Its not entertaining to watch.  In s7 at least Dean got some kills and some nice emotional beats to balance things out.  He's not even getting that.  Sam has the majority of the emotional moments, speeches, kills, and interactions with guest stars.   He's not even in the "big brother" role this season since Sam seems to be able to take care of everything and everyone by himself. 

  Even if Dean was upset, I see him becoming a better hunter, not worse because I feel like he'd throw himself wholeheartedly into it to distract him from the problems with Mary and Cas.   I'm not seeing a reckless Dean, or even a sloppy Dean.  What I'm seeing is an incompetent Dean.  One who seems to have lost all this skills.   I'm not even sure I'd describe Dean as a side kick.  He's filler.  To take up the extra time needed to fill an episode.

Even if Dean does blow, I would side-eye it and wonder when he's going to get shamed into apologizing.

As for Ketch, I don't see a confrontation happening.  Ketch isn't interested in Dean.  There is no relationship there.  They shared one glass of scotch and now Ketch seems to be their boss/handler.    Dean is an assignment along with every other hunter in America.  So Dean isn't special in that regard.  Ketch taking the photo seems to be more about his feelings toward Mary than anything related to Dean.  I see Mary ultimately, being the one to confront and kill him.

I see Sam and Cas teaming up on the Dagon/Lucifer/nephilm front. 

I'm not really sure where that leaves Dean as he has no direction connection to any story this season.  Half the time this ep, I wasn't sure if I was watching a disengaged Dean or a disengaged Jensen.

TL:DR version- if I'm supposed to be seeing Dean in a downward spiral the writers aren't selling it.

Edited April 14, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

On ‎4‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 8:28 AM, ILoveReading said:

TL:DR version- if I'm supposed to be seeing Dean in a downward spiral the writers aren't selling it.

I'm just going to reiterate what I said earlier, I honestly think that it IS what Jensen is trying to sell regarding Dean's mental state, but I think he's doing that because there is nothing else for him to do with the nothing material he's getting from the writers/showrunners this season. 

Spoiler

From that one page of a future script we saw in a twitter pic, it would appear that Dean might have it out with Mary(and if that wasn't a foiler script) as to how she cannot protect them now, and never truly did even as children simply by making the deal to bring John back. BUT-if that's his "big" moment this season, I'd have to count it as a big, fat Fail as far as writing for a lead character/actor is concerned.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Myrelle

[rue721]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It seems like you're more tolerant of Mary's behavior since you see her as behaving in an adolescent manner.

I'm relatively tolerant of Mary's behavior, because the choices I see for Dean are to either to give up on ever having any relationship with Mary, which he apparently doesn't want to do and which IMO it would be out of character for him to do, or for him to tolerate it.

And I think that Mary is a screw up rather than a horrible, cruel person or something, so I don't really see what's wrong with tolerating it anyway. In an ideal world maybe there would be nothing TO "tolerate," but eh. Nobody's perfect.

Where IMO Mary acting so adolescent comes into play is in terms of them setting their expectations of her and what/how much help she's going to need or even what kind of relationship they can have with her for now. She's acting like a kid, so she probably needs the kind of help and tolerance that a kid (such as Claire) needed as an adolescent, and they are probably not going to be able to have a reciprocal relationship with her for a while yet. No judgement on her (or them) either way, just stating what I think realistic expectations for her and their relationship probably are given her behavior and mindset thus far.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

She's acting like a kid, so she probably needs the kind of help and tolerance that a kid (such as Claire) needed as an adolescent, and they are probably not going to be able to have a reciprocal relationship with her for a while yet. 

I think she got that already at the end of the vamp episode when Dean had to grovel before her and her response was a gloating smugness. Now, kids and adolscents do react like that when they get their way and not have to experience consequences for being shitty but IMO it leads to just more shitty behaviour. That is how you end up with an entitled brat.

By giving Mary carte blanche, that is IMO the relationship Dean (and Sam) can expect to have with her, period. Because unlike a kid/teenager, you can`t expect her to grow up some day. She technically is, if she can`t act like it, there is no reason to assume this will change.

[ILoveReading]

29 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I'm relatively tolerant of Mary's behavior, because the choices I see for Dean are to either to give up on ever having any relationship with Mary, which he apparently doesn't want to do and which IMO it would be out of character for him to do, or for him to tolerate it.

I don't think this paints Mary in the best light.  Its sending a message that if Dean doesn't adjust his behavior to Mary's standards he can't have relationship with her.  That Dean has to make all the effort  Its no better than the way John treated him and just reinforces Dean's self esteem issues.   If he doesn't "play his part" Mary will leave.

Even when he tried she still ditched him.  Yes, Mary is a grown woman who doesn't need permission.  If she doesn't feel connected to her sons because she doesn't know them and they're strangers I can understand that, but at this point in the season I can't feel sympathy because Mary has made no effort to get to know her children.  Her showing up at the bunker was about defending her decision to work with the BMoLs.   Not about her sons.  Same with her reaching out, felt more like a recruitment drive.

If Mary doesn't want to get to know Sam and Dean because she can't see them as her sons and can't make the leap.  Again understandable because not everyone can reconnect, but then Mary owes it to her sons to be honest with them on this point and stop using her sons as an excuse for her actions and own them.  "I'm working with the British Men of Letters because I want too."

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

If Mary doesn't want to get to know Sam and Dean because she can't see them as her sons and can't make the leap.  Again understandable because not everyone can reconnect, but then Mary owes it to her sons to be honest with them on this point and stop using her sons as an excuse for her actions and own them.  "I'm working with the British Men of Letters because I want too."

I 100% agree with all of that.

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I'm relatively tolerant of Mary's behavior, because the choices I see for Dean are to either to give up on ever having any relationship with Mary, which he apparently doesn't want to do and which IMO it would be out of character for him to do, or for him to tolerate it.

 Dean doesn't give up on relationships easily, which I mentioned before is both good and bad for Dean.

I think he puts up with a lot of mistreatment and emotional blackmail to maintain the family ties. I think he has had misgivings about Marys resurrection from the get go because he knows there is always a price to pay for these kinds of things.

Mary  is the one dictating the terms of their relationship. He hasnt really had any say so in how the relationship is conducted at all. He was rightfully hurt by her rejection. so he tried to connect via whatever way he could and took whatever emotional crumbs she gave him.

And I think he would have continued to take those crumbs until he realized she was lying to them for months about the BMoL and her lies almost killed his best friend of nearly 10 years.

He drew a line in the sand on that which was unfortunately erased when Sam revealed he had also joined the BMOL.

[devlin123]

I have no problem with how Dean is behaving and that he is off his game. The person who held a special, almost pure place in his heart has flat out rejected him. His brother has once again chosen someone over him(and doesn't seem to see them as a team) and then lied to him. I don't know if that's what the writers were going for but thanks to JA for being able to play what is not written, Dean is clearly floundering. Added to this, this poor guy is basically an 80 year old man who has spent more time in hell than he has been on earth. He has led a violent brutal life from the age of four and the times when he has needed the most support he hasn't had any(his return from both hell and purgatory). I think this latest season is the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

[Aeryn13]

Thing is, after John`s death he was in a bad place - and I enjoyed that so infinitely much more. He was engaged, he was passionate, he was a badass. The character might not have been happy but he had a real presence. And you could clearly see that he wasn`t okay and why.

This Season, I can assume but I don`t even think he is supposed to be struggling. He is just supposed to have no presence. No explanation needed or given. Well, none in the show.  

To me the difference between the two scenarios is like night and day. And one works well for a TV show and the other doesn`t work at all. Even if it was a subtle character study or whatnot, it is fucking terrible to watch. And no pay-off can be worth the price of one entirely wasted Season. A terrible Finale can destroy a good Season for example but unfortunately it doesn`t work the other way around. Not that I believe in any kind of pay-off in the first place.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Thing is, after John`s death he was in a bad place - and I enjoyed that so infinitely much more. He was engaged, he was passionate, he was a badass. The character might not have been happy but he had a real presence. And you could clearly see that he wasn`t okay and why.

This Season, I can assume but I don`t even think he is supposed to be struggling. He is just supposed to have no presence. No explanation needed or given. Well, none in the show.

Good point. I feel that at this point we are just interpreting what Dean may be feeling via Jensen's portrayal whereas in the scenario you referenced we were given actual dialogue and the behavior followed events in which we knew Dean would probably have a downward spiral. I need to see an actual scene with Dean discussing the events that have happened and to hear what he's feeling. The most we've gotten was his confrontation with Mary but since he withdrew practically the entire outburst by the end of the episode I feel that it no longer counts. I don't even necessarily need an outpouring of emotion between him and Mary because I'm indifferent to her at this point. A discussion or purging of feelings between Dean and Sam is what I would like to see with validation of his feelings much like the talk with Jody in the Asa Fox ep.

[mertensia]

If Dean isn't just a killer, why does it matter that Sam's gotten a bunch of kills this season and Dean hasn't?

[Aeryn13]

Because there is still a vast area between being "a killer" and being either a no-show in action-scenes or being portrayed as completely incompetent. 

I happen to like competent action!Dean. And I miss him terribly. If there was a reason like he is still under a spell, it would at least be an explanation. Though I would think the story went on too long but right now I see no reason why he suddenly forgot how to do the job the show is based on. He isn`t on a downward spiral, not as per the show right now. And even when he was previously, he wasn`t like this.

And it`s not just not the kills, the character hasn`t contributed anything to the recent string of episodes. Dean is usually someone who can inspire people and make good speeches? He turns mute in such scenes now. 

I hated the "brain and brawn" distinction between the brothers the show tries to sell but giving Sam both made it worse. Dean hasn`t gotten brainy scenes, he has gotten "nothing" scenes.  

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, mertensia said:

If Dean isn't just a killer, why does it matter that Sam's gotten a bunch of kills this season and Dean hasn't?

 

 

Both Sam and Dean kill monsters which is part and parcel  of Hunting.

Yet  the question seems to posit that its only Dean who must be " just a killer" if a viewer wants Dean to return to being a more effective and badass  hunter again which includes killing monsters, just as Sam does.

Maybe the question should be are both Sam and Dean "just killers" who can't live without killing.But that is probably best left for the "Bitch v jerk" thread.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean hasn`t gotten brainy scenes, 

Well then, I must have completely misinterpreted that "turns out this ape did read a book or two" line.

Edited April 17, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[ilovedean27]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well then, I must have completely misinterpreted that "turns out this ape did read a book or two" line.

Was that this season? I've forgotten so much about this season. That's how boring it's been.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, ilovedean27 said:

Was that this season? I've forgotten so much about this season. That's how boring it's been.

Yes, it was this season.  Overall, I don't think it's been boring at all.  

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, ilovedean27 said:

Was that this season? I've forgotten so much about this season. That's how boring it's been.

If I remember correctly, It was stated by Dean after he knocked Lady Toni out in Momma Mia. He was referencing the fact that he knew, from reading a book, it took making her unconscious to end the Chinese mind control she was using on Mary. 

[Katy M]

Just now, ilovedean27 said:

Was that this season? I've forgotten so much about this season. That's how boring it's been.

Yes, it was from Mamma Mia.  I think Dean's gotten quite a few brainy scenes over the years.  He's just not a bookworm, which is fine.  He did build his own EMF detector.  He doesn't like the research as much, but he does his fair share and isn't shown to be inept at in the least.  He drank phoenix ash and got Eve to bite him.  If that's not brainy, I don't know what is. 

[ilovedean27]

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yes, it was this season.  Overall, I don't think it's been boring at all.  

Ok. I forgot about that scene. Seems like it was so long ago. It's been a very long, very boring season, in my opinion. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Well then, I must have completely misinterpreted that "turns out this ape did read a book or two" line.

One little scene at the start of the Season compared to the string of utter uselessness in the last 7 episodes, that doesn`t even make a dent for me. To even approach anything remotely balance, I would need a LOT more. That`s my problem, that things are so out of whack.   

Quote

He drank phoenix ash and got Eve to bite him.  If that's not brainy, I don't know what is. 

I loved that scene but that was in Season 6? That`s been years ago. The character also had badass scenes previously in the show. But not in a long time.

Since I`m not from the US, I know very little about baseball but even I heard about the Chicago Cubs and the World Series win after 100+ years. Right now in the show I feel like I`m IN that period of 100+ years in terms of Dean`s character. And really, how is that fun? How was that fun for the fans of that sports team to watch 100+ years of losing? I can`t imagine it was any.

Is it really that outlandish to wish for something better and more exciting for a favourite character?