Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[ILoveReading]

Will I think most of this season has been poor, directionless and I have enjoyed how Jensen is portraying Dean this season. (outside of Perez episodes) It's such a nice change from mopey, depressed Dean.   He seems to have gotten his confidence back.  He seems to be enjoying the hunt again.   He's gotten his leadership skills back.  He's been holding his own in fights, observant and shown as smart.  (Again outside of Perez eps)

I like that he's also holding Mary at arms length.  The last couple of seasons I feel like he would have been drinking.  He was hurt but he didn't fall back into his self-destructive behavior.   While he keeps up polite conversation, I don't feel a lot of warmth and affection towards her from Dean.  He keeps those walls up.  I can't blame him since he doesn't want to get rejected again.   That little step back, the refusal to look at her when she left.  It's all those little extras that make me love Dean feel so much. 

I just to to hug him. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Will I think most of this season has been poor, directionless and I have enjoyed how Jensen is portraying Dean this season. (outside of Perez episodes) It's such a nice change from mopey, depressed Dean.   He seems to have gotten his confidence back.  He seems to be enjoying the hunt again.   He's gotten his leadership skills back.  He's been holding his own in fights, observant and shown as smart.  (Again outside of Perez eps)

I like that he's also holding Mary at arms length.  The last couple of seasons I feel like he would have been drinking.  He was hurt but he didn't fall back into his self-destructive behavior.   While he keeps up polite conversation, I don't feel a lot of warmth and affection towards her from Dean.  He keeps those walls up.  I can't blame him since he doesn't want to get rejected again.   That little step back, the refusal to look at her when she left.  It's all those little extras that make me love Dean feel so much. 

I just to to hug him. 

I agree with this entire post. Dean has never been his biggest fan but he's been so downtrodden since he returned from Hell it's depressing to see. I miss the cocky confidence of the earlier seasons without all of the baggage that he's acquired since then but it doesn't make me love the character any less. And I feel that he should hold Mary at arms length because while she is indeed his mother at this point his memories would be better than the reality is turning out to be as others here have stated. He deserves tons of hugs that aren't due to relief at someone returning from the dead or evading death.

[PAForrest]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Will I think most of this season has been poor, directionless and I have enjoyed how Jensen is portraying Dean this season. (outside of Perez episodes) It's such a nice change from mopey, depressed Dean.   He seems to have gotten his confidence back.  He seems to be enjoying the hunt again.   He's gotten his leadership skills back.  He's been holding his own in fights, observant and shown as smart.  (Again outside of Perez eps)

I like that he's also holding Mary at arms length.  The last couple of seasons I feel like he would have been drinking.  He was hurt but he didn't fall back into his self-destructive behavior.   While he keeps up polite conversation, I don't feel a lot of warmth and affection towards her from Dean.  He keeps those walls up.  I can't blame him since he doesn't want to get rejected again.   That little step back, the refusal to look at her when she left.  It's all those little extras that make me love Dean feel so much.

Yeah, in the few minutes he was in that first Perez script, Dean had that mopey moment trying to call Mary that I didn't appreciate at all. And we did have that one horrible scene of him drinking on the floor in the kitchen of the bunker earlier this season when he was depressed about Mary that I despised, in whatever episode that was because none of them are sticking with me. I just recall the scene because it looked like we were sliding right back down into Gamble's season 7 depressed Dean that I never ever want to see again. Unfortunately I feel that there was too much Dean-depression in the beginning surrounding Mary because Dean wanted so badly to connect with her, and she wasn't interested, which is the sure fire fastest way to make me hate a character. And he wasn't doing much else on screen, so that's unfortunately what jumps out in my mind - again, much like season 7 Dean.

But I agree we at least seem to be past that awfulness, and Jensen does appear to be trying to instill a little more fun and gravitas to whenever Dean is on screen. I feel like there's a lot more adlibbing going on in his performances this year, giving us those little extras you talked about, and it's a good thing because what Jensen likes about Dean are the same things most of his fans want to see too, like the lightness and strength that you mentioned. Getting to see Dean be child-like, happy, and excited in Regarding Dean was the best part of that episode. Too bad it was a one-off.

I too like that Dean appears to be keeping Mary at arm's length, and I'm not seeing any warmth between the characters. Granted, Mary isn't exuding warmth in general anyway, but Dean also doesn't look like he's going out of his way with her anymore either. But I would love some actual scripted confirmation that this is what's happening, and not just have to rely on how Jensen appears to be playing his limited interactions with her.

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Yeah, in the few minutes he was in that first Perez script, Dean had that mopey moment trying to call Mary that I didn't appreciate at all. And we did have that one horrible scene of him drinking on the floor in the kitchen of the bunker earlier this season when he was depressed about Mary that I despised, in whatever episode that was because none of them are sticking with me. I just recall the scene because it looked like we were sliding right back down into Gamble's season 7 depressed Dean that I never ever want to see again. Unfortunately I feel that there was too much Dean-depression in the beginning surrounding Mary because Dean wanted so badly to connect with her, and she wasn't interested, which is the sure fire fastest way to make me hate a character. And he wasn't doing much else on screen, so that's unfortunately what jumps out in my mind - again, much like season 7 Dean.

But I agree we at least seem to be past that awfulness, and Jensen does appear to be trying to instill a little more fun and gravitas to whenever Dean is on screen. I feel like there's a lot more adlibbing going on in his performances this year, giving us those little extras you talked about, and it's a good thing because what Jensen likes about Dean are the same things most of his fans want to see too, like the lightness and strength that you mentioned. Getting to see Dean be child-like, happy, and excited in Regarding Dean was the best part of that episode. Too bad it was a one-off.

I too like that Dean appears to be keeping Mary at arm's length, and I'm not seeing any warmth between the characters. Granted, Mary isn't exuding warmth in general anyway, but Dean also doesn't look like he's going out of his way with her anymore either. But I would love some actual scripted confirmation that this is what's happening, and not just have to rely on how Jensen appears to be playing his limited interactions with her.

The Dean trying to call Mary scene didn't bother me too much.  What bothered me more was Dean being made to call himself a dick because he was hurt by it.  Because Mary barely responding it part of the reason why I feel Dean's walls around are reinforced concrete and steel.   She didn't  have a charger isn't an excuse to not to call.  Landlines still exist and she had their number.

Ironically Mary leaving at the end The Foundry might have been what kicked Dean out of a downward spiral.  She was around and she didn't seem to want to bond with him, his child hood memories were shown to be more fantasy than reality.  I think it was what lead to  Dean's over the top enthusiasm in The Foundry.  When Mary left, the walls went up and the depression seemed to get trapped inside those.  I'm not going to hold my breath that this will ever get addressed.  I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop where Mary accuses Dean of rejecting her.   Dean's usually not allowed to be angry or hurt by events. 

As for s7, Dean's mental state is such a minefield that a real storyline related to his depression could have been interesting.  But I never really saw that as anything more than a response to the "what about Dean" criticism that followed s7 comic con.  Mostly because no actor, or PTB even mentioned it at comic con.  Then suddenly the season description was updated with a blurb  about Dean having a secret and Singer suddenly says out of the blue, Dean will be depressed for 13 episodes. 

How do you have Dean's depression any real focus when can't tell reality from fantasy.  Both brothers can't be out of commission.

The "story" played out exactly like I thought it would. Despite not being able to handle any more grief and guilt, the show would dump even more on his shoulders.  Then someone would tell him to suck it up then it would be dropped.  That's exactly what happened when they killed off Bobby.  Dean got a nice boo hoo speech from Frank, Elliot Ness and told he wasn't a person from Bobby.  Then it was dropped. 

ETA

I fully credit Jensen with the way he's playing Dean and for this change.  Not the writing.   I think Jensen is acting against it.

Edited February 22, 2017 by ILoveReading

[FlickChick]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

ETA

I fully credit Jensen with the way he's playing Dean and for this change.  Not the writing.   I think Jensen is acting against it.

 

I agree with this. And I also believe that when Jensen does change the script (in words or nuance), that TPTB let it stand. Why shouldn't they? Jensen knows Dean better than any writer, producer, director, or show-runner. He's lived with Dean for twelve years now. I'm going to be really sad when Dean Winchester goes away, for I believe he's one of the best characters EVER on TV.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I'm going to be really sad when Dean Winchester goes away, for I believe he's one of the best characters EVER on TV.

LALALALALA I can't hear you......Dean is never going away and Dean from 20 to 70 will never be played by anyone other than Jensen Ackles.  I will not be moved on this point.

[Myrelle]

22 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I fully credit Jensen with the way he's playing Dean and for this change.  Not the writing.   I think Jensen is acting against it.

I don't think I've ever seen an actor who's better at doing this than Jensen. And it goes directly to the root of how he makes every character that he's ever portrayed more his, than the writer's. A smart writer would see that, learn from it, and take that into consideration(as opposed to fighting it him on it), when writing for him. Of this new bunch, I think that, so far, Meredith Glynn has. Maybe Yockey, too. Hope they can keep it up. I used to think Berens got it, too, but I think he's fallen into the same trap that so many of them have and still do-that of giving too much weight to the opinions some of the people on twitter and tumblr(especially the small but loud subsets) and attempting to please them first and foremost instead of just focusing on writing a good script while taking into account the previous show canon AND the actors that they're writing for.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

10 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I don't think I've ever seen an actor who's better at doing this than Jensen. And it goes directly to the root of how he makes every character that he's ever portrayed more his, than the writer's. A smart writer would see that, learn from it, and take that into consideration(as opposed to fighting it him on it), when writing for him. Of this new bunch, I think that, so far, Meredith Glynn has. Maybe Yockey, too. Hope they can keep it up. I used to think Berens got it, too, but I think he's fallen into the same trap that so many of them have and still do-that of giving too much weight to the opinions some of the people on twitter and tumblr(especially the small but loud subsets) and attempting to please them first and foremost instead of just focusing on writing a good script while taking into account the previous show canon AND the actors that they're writing for.

It is probably the biggest fail of all on the part of the writers/showrunner(s) that they don't write to Jensen's strength as an actor and his depth of knowledge of character. We've been mesmerized by what he's been able to do with some of the mediocre material he's been handed. Just imagine what he could do with some real meat. Eh, we don't have to imagine, we've seen it, as recently as Regarding Dean.

I had a meet & greet in Vegas two weeks ago, and I wish I was allowed to be more detailed about it, but I can promise you that I have more respect than ever for Jensen and his love of Dean Winchester. One thing he did speak to at length was the line in First Blood about the isolation being worse than Hell, physical vs psychological torture. The gist of his answer was that for Dean, it was worse - but that he, Jensen, would not feel the same way. Mostly all the questions were character/show related, and he gave considered, thoughtful answers to each and every one. I believe that no one, not Kripke and certainly nobody writing today, knows Dean better than Jensen.

Edited February 23, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
because I have never not edited, ever

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

can promise you that I have more respect than ever for Jensen and his love of Dean Winchester. One thing he did speak to at length was the line in First Blood about the isolation being worse than Hell, physical vs psychological torture. The gist of his answer was that for Dean, it was worse - but that he, Jensen, would not feel the same way. Mostly all the questions were character/show related, and he gave considered, thoughtful answers to each and every one. I believe that no one, not Kripke and certainly nobody writing today, knows Dean better than Jensen.

Maybe some things were cut because IMO the narrative sure didn't build it up enough to show why Dean would think being alone was worse than Hell. Maybe the next time someone can ask him  how Dean would feel about the 10 years he tortured other people and if that would be better than being alone. Maybe he's forgotten Dean did that.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe some things were cut because IMO the narrative sure didn't build it up enough to show why Dean would think being alone was worse than Hell. Maybe the next time someone can ask him  how Dean would feel about the 10 years he tortured other people and if that would be better than being alone. Maybe he's forgotten Dean did that.

I think it just wasn't meant to be taken so literally. Not worse than everything he suffered in, and as a result of being in, Hell, but the physical vs psychological torture. My opinion (not Jensen's): It was hyperbole, meant to underscore the belief that they were never getting out of there alive, justifying the deal with Billie.

 

ETA: It's something we all do. I'm 100% certain that losing a limb is worse than a paper cut under the fingernail, but goddamn when I do it, it's THE WORST THING EVER!

Edited February 23, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

Apropos of nothing, this is my licence plate. :)

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think it just wasn't meant to be taken so literally. Not worse than everything he suffered in, and as a result of being in, Hell, but the physical vs psychological torture. My opinion (not Jensen's): It was hyperbole, meant to underscore the belief that they were never getting out of there alive, justifying the deal with Billie.

I get that it was probably meant to be hyperbole but the writer (Andrew Dabb) should really know better than to compare something to Hell especially with Dean given that Dean didn't just suffer his own physical and mental torture. He did it to other people. Dabb should have just left it at "We thought we would never see another human being again ever" . Throwing in a "It's worse than Hell" comment is just asking for trouble.  LOL

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Apropos of nothing, this is my licence plate. :)

LOL that's commitment!! LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I get that it was probably meant to be hyperbole but the writer (Andrew Dabb) should really know better than to compare something to Hell especially with Dean given that Dean didn't just suffer his own physical and mental torture. He did it to other people. Dabb should have just left it at "We thought we would never see another human being again ever" . Throwing in a "It's worse than Hell" comment is just asking for trouble.  LOL

LOL that's commitment!! LOL

This probably belongs in the unpopular opinion thread, but your post reminded me of something that's always bugged me a little. Yes, Dean tortured other souls - but - he tortured other souls in Hell.  He didn't snatch innocents from Earth and kill them, and presumably they didn't all get there by trading their souls for anothers', or eating fish on Fridays. Gotta assume they were bad people that probably deserved to be in Hell. I get that it was a terrible thing for a truly righteous man (which I believe Dean is and was) to live with, but it always irked me that this was never even mentioned.

[ILoveReading]

Given Dean's make up I can agree that psychological torture would be worse than physical for him, but the problem was that 6 weeks was just too short a time frame.  6 months I could start to buy Dean climbing the walls out of sheer boredom, and wanting to get away from his own thoughts. 

Plus, it also made Cas and Mary look like they gave up too soon. 

They could have done so much more.  If being confined started giving Dean hell flashbacks and we saw him having nightmares of DT's from alcohol withdrawal, it would make more sense on why he acted so quickly.

As cool as Dean;s "your trapped in here with us" line was, I'd give it up for if we could have spent more time with Dean in that cell. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Given Dean's make up I can agree that psychological torture would be worse than physical for him, but the problem was that 6 weeks was just too short a time frame.  6 months I could start to buy Dean climbing the walls out of sheer boredom, and wanting to get away from his own thoughts. 

Plus, it also made Cas and Mary look like they gave up too soon. 

They could have done so much more.  If being confined started giving Dean hell flashbacks and we saw him having nightmares of DT's from alcohol withdrawal, it would make more sense on why he acted so quickly.

As cool as Dean;s "your trapped in here with us" line was, I'd give it up for if we could have spent more time with Dean in that cell. 

that's my major beef with the whole thing. It's not long enough. Or even if it was 6 weeks SHOW US the deterioration.

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't think Dean's drinking enough for the DTs these days, lol. That's the one good thing I have to say about S12 - we are getting a much more together Dean than we've had for a long while. Being proud of what he and Sam have done with the family business, not drowning himself in a bottle over Mary, his delight and pride in killing Hitler. He's hardly beaten himself up at all this season.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This probably belongs in the unpopular opinion thread, but your post reminded me of something that's always bugged me a little. Yes, Dean tortured other souls - but - he tortured other souls in Hell.  He didn't snatch innocents from Earth and kill them, and presumably they didn't all get there by trading their souls for anothers', or eating fish on Fridays. Gotta assume they were bad people that probably deserved to be in Hell. I get that it was a terrible thing for a truly righteous man (which I believe Dean is and was) to live with, but it always irked me that this was never even mentioned.

I dunno. It really depends on why they were in Hell. Some faiths believe committing suicide is a path to Hell but not all. So if someone chose to end their own life and they went to Hell, were they bad people? What if one of those were the person Dean was torturing?

But even if the people Dean was torturing in Hell were bad people, Dean would forever feel guilty for doing. He even said nothing could ever make up for that. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I dunno. It really depends on why they were in Hell. Some faiths believe committing suicide is a path to Hell but not all. So if someone chose to end their own life and they went to Hell, were they bad people? What if one of those were the person Dean was torturing?

But even if the people Dean was torturing in Hell were bad people, Dean would forever feel guilty for doing. He even said nothing could ever make up for that. 

Oh, I totally agree that for Dean it made no difference - he will never get over having done it. I'm just saying that no one ever attempted to ease his pain/conscience at all by even suggesting it. Because regardless of how they ended up there, being in Hell is supposed to be, well, hellish.

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Oh, I totally agree that for Dean it made no difference - he will never get over having done it. I'm just saying that no one ever attempted to ease his pain/conscience at all by even suggesting it. Because regardless of how they ended up there, being in Hell is supposed to be, well, hellish.

Well he did get the 'Dean, it's not your fault' like once from Sam....but yeah...that's about it. LOL

[ILoveReading]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think Dean's drinking enough for the DTs these days, lol. That's the one good thing I have to say about S12 - we are getting a much more together Dean than we've had for a long while. Being proud of what he and Sam have done with the family business, not drowning himself in a bottle over Mary, his delight and pride in killing Hitler. He's hardly beaten himself up at all this season.

You're right about the drinking.  I think we've only seen him touch the hard stuff once this season (Sipping from the flask in Asa Fox).

Dean's increased sense of self worth, and seeing value in what he does the very best part of this season.  I also like that Dean seems to be standing up for himself more.   Calling Mary out on the drive to Canada and now

Spoiler

being suspicious of Mary and not just accepting her because she's his mom. 

I hope this continues.  I worry after Dean finds out Mary is betraying them.  I hope he gets angry, and not mopey.

ETA

I always thought it would have made an interesting episode where Sam and Dean encounter a demon who turns out to be a soul Dean tortured. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by ILoveReading

[bearcatfan]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

that's my major beef with the whole thing. It's not long enough. Or even if it was 6 weeks SHOW US the deterioration.

I'm not disagreeing that it seemed too short. The problem is the Lucifer baby story. If they are locked away for a longer time period, then they have to immediately resolve that story.

Edited February 24, 2017 by bearcatfan

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

I'm not disagreeing that it seemed too short. The problem is the Lucifer baby story. If they are locked away for a longer time period, then they have to immediately resolve that story.

Why? They could time jump both of them let's say 4 months.

[ILoveReading]

Keeping in mind @catrox14 thoughts on Dean and alcohol I went and re-watched the opening scene of Mother's Little Helper.

Compared to that scene it puts 12.14 in a much different perspective.  In MLH, Dean displays many more traits associated with alcoholism.  He has the bottle hidden and doesn't pull it out until Sam leaves.  The depression is so heavy you can actually feeling it weighing Dean down.  He finishes off the entire bottle, then lies to Sam and goes out for more. 

Whereas, yes, Dean wanted a drink, but I think when he saw the tatoo, he decided to both drink and try and gather intel.  Plus, he left for a hunt, not more booze. 

[ahrtee]

24 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Keeping in mind @catrox14 thoughts on Dean and alcohol I went and re-watched the opening scene of Mother's Little Helper.

Compared to that scene it puts 12.14 in a much different perspective.  In MLH, Dean displays many more traits associated with alcoholism.  He has the bottle hidden and doesn't pull it out until Sam leaves.  The depression is so heavy you can actually feeling it weighing Dean down.  He finishes off the entire bottle, then lies to Sam and goes out for more. 

Whereas, yes, Dean wanted a drink, but I think when he saw the tatoo, he decided to both drink and try and gather intel.  Plus, he left for a hunt, not more booze. 

I think that for a while they *were* writing Dean as a functional alcoholic, starting in s. 4 and his downward spiral.  IMO he tends to use alcohol to drown out his own fears/despair, so it kicks in more when he's stuck in a mode where he's up against something he can't do anything about (ie, feeling helpless (as in fighting off the MoC or not being able to save Sam from the Pit); guilty (about Amy, Gadreel, or lying to Sam at other times) or hopeless (as in trying to stop Amara.)  When he has something he can actually do (fighting Abaddon/Lucifer, even the trials, though he wasn't the action role there, or just hunting in general)--he's focused on the job and doesn't need to drink himself into oblivion.  He may still be one step away from cirrhosis, but IMO he's not craving or needing to drink.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Keeping in mind @catrox14 thoughts on Dean and alcohol I went and re-watched the opening scene of Mother's Little Helper.

Compared to that scene it puts 12.14 in a much different perspective.  In MLH, Dean displays many more traits associated with alcoholism.  He has the bottle hidden and doesn't pull it out until Sam leaves.  The depression is so heavy you can actually feeling it weighing Dean down.  He finishes off the entire bottle, then lies to Sam and goes out for more. 

Whereas, yes, Dean wanted a drink, but I think when he saw the tatoo, he decided to both drink and try and gather intel.  Plus, he left for a hunt, not more booze. 

I think though, there is a big difference with Dean's drinking in s9, s10 and in 'The Raid' and that's the effect the Mark had on Dean.

Pre MoC - Dean drank a lot. He used alcohol in very specific ways and he was drinking all the time. In s9, Dean was visibly drunk in First Born, because he had betrayed Sam by lying to him and that lie got Kevin killed. He was emotionally separated from Sam because of his actions.  He was guilt-ridden and filled with shame so he left and got hammered at the bar where Crowley tracked him down.

However, after he got the Mark IMO, he continued to drink but he wasn't getting drunk. He was depressed and angry...yet he was also energized by the Mark too.

IMO, alcohol had no effect on Dean after he killed with the First Blade the first time. He drank a full bottle of alcohol at home and the left to the bar to drink more. But he was never drunk in MLH. He was trying to dull the bloodlust.  He realized by the end of MLH that he wanted the First Blade so he could satisfy the bloodlust. That's why he could drink bottles of scotch and he didn't do anything to him. He could still go out and hunt but that's not what was driving him. He was unsuccessfully burying himself in the scotch to no avail because it did not dull the bloodlust. By the time 9.23 rolled around, Dean didn't want alcohol or burgers because the Mark was changing him and as it turns out, killing him if he didn't kill.  Nothing he ate or drank was going to help that desire be quelled.

Dean was again trying to control the bloodlust throughout s10 but most of the time alcohol didn't do anything. I think he was flat out shit faced when he was a demon and in the s10 finale after Charlie's death, and he killed All the Stynes.  I dunno maybe he just drank so much that he couldn't NOT get drunk. 

IMO, Dean's quest for scotch in The Raid was on par with his drinking in s4 and s5. He drank a fuckton then, seemed to show a little bit of inebriation and still hunted. And now this season Dean's drinking has been brought up a couple of times.  Sam said, "I want to crawl inside a bottle too sometimes Dean", and here he's like "I want all the drinks".

I guess what I'm saying is that his alcohol use whilst he had the Mark is not a reliable measure of whether he's an alcoholic or not.

[rue721]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I guess what I'm saying is that his alcohol use whilst he had the Mark is not a reliable measure of whether he's an alcoholic or not.

Fair enough. I'm not understanding, though, whether you do think he's currently an alcoholic or not? And why or why not? Honest question(s).

Edited March 6, 2017 by rue721
no more run-on sentences I promise and lemme tell you about this other thing...

[catrox14]

59 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Fair enough. I'm not understanding, though, whether you do think he's currently an alcoholic or not? And why or why not? Honest question(s).

Just to be clear,  I'm no expert on alcoholism and I know this is a touchy subject that can be  personal. So anything I say here about Dean is not meant to offend or be a blanket commentary on alcohol use/abuse. I've dealt with it in my family since I was a teenager, (Al Anon been through all that counseling etc) and my experience is not going to be the same as another person's. 

IMO, it's a spectrum. Not every alcoholic has to drink every day or they suffer DTs and withdrawal or immediate death if they stop drinking nor do they want to kill all the things to get that drink. They don't have to have a drink in the morning to cope.  Not everyone who has a glass of wine or a beer with dinner is an alcoholic or a problem drinker nor does it mean they are not.

I think right now Dean is at worst a functional alcoholic and at best a problem drinker. (FWIW, I think Sam is a binge drinker). When Dean himself says he's a functional alcoholic, I tend to take him at his word. Dean said that when he was de-aged and the Mark was gone..so.I think Dean is fully aware that he has a problem with alcohol. I don't think think he has a false perception of that

He can't exactly go to counseling to address that he's killed monsters since he was a kid; that his mother was burned alive by a demon; that his dad sold his soul for him and he sold his soul for his brother; that he was demon and killed people because of a curse from God. So Dean drinks to ameliorate emotional distress.  I don't think Dean would be alive if he didn't alcohol and sex as his coping mechanisms.  His liver may think otherwise LOL

 

 Dean was an established embiber throughout s1 and s2. That escalated after his deal to go to Hell. And remained so from s4 through s7.  Dean stopped drinking entirely for a year in Purgatory, (talk about cold turkey) and he didn't drink as much in S8 post purgatory but then the events of the end of s8 and beginning of s9 he started drinking heavily again. s9 and s10 I addressed already as somewhat unreliable given the MoC.

IMO, Dean's drinking is directly tied to how much mental and emotional duress he's under at any given time. If he has a scotch and a beer at the end of the day of hunting? Meh, he's probably not all that stressed. If he seeks to drink an entire bottle of Jack Daniels and a 12 pack of Pabst...he's in a bad place. IMO, that makes him a problem drinker/borderline functional alcoholic.

IMO, if Dean stopped using alcohol as part of his unhealthy coping skills, he'd be a lot worse off. 

No one need concur with my interpretation of Dean and not everyone's own personal experience with alcohol or alcoholism is the same as mine. That's just how I see it.  YMMV

[AwesomO4000]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

(FWIW, I think Sam is a binge drinker).

Agreed.

Rest of my comment taken to the Sam thread.

[rue721]

What's weird to me is that on the one hand, there's no doubt that he drinks too much (just based on quantity)...but on the other hand, his drinking seems to have absolutely zero consequences. Not even interpersonal consequences. So I'm not sure that it's problematic, or meant to be. I mean, if there are no adverse consequences, then what's the problem?

And why *aren't* there any consequences?

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

When Dean himself says he's a functional alcoholic, I tend to take him at his word.

Yeah, I do, too. But he's SUPER functional though. Like, completely functional. Arguably more functional than he would be if he never drank another drop. I guess that's where I get most confused!

[catrox14]

Just now, rue721 said:

What's weird to me is that on the one hand, there's no doubt that he drinks too much (just based on quantity)...but on the other hand, his drinking seems to have absolutely zero consequences. Not even interpersonal consequences. So I'm not sure that it's problematic, or meant to be. I mean, if there are no adverse consequences, then what's the problem?

Well the reality is that this show will never deal with those consequences because it becomes "A Very Special "episode of Supernatural. But IRL, not every person who drinks too much faces consequences. There are also the enabling behaviors of those around the person who drinks too much.  Unless they have some kind of event that pushes them over the edge into extremely negative behaviors they can continue on.

But withing the context of this show and this world, IMO it's the culture surrounding Hunter's Helper. Bobby drank too much and he admitted it. John drank too much. IMO alcohol use/abuse is commonplace and as long as no one is shooting anyone else in anger or gets a DUI or gets injured in a drunk driving accident, or a hunt goes sideways because of the alcohol usage no one really cares that much.

Dean spends most of the time on back roads and he's less likely to get pulled over and be given a field sobriety test than if he's cruising around a suburban neighborhood.

Dean has been resurrected like 3 times and I'm going with his liver was repaired each time so the cirrhosis (if it happens at all) is not going to happen.

Maybe Dean's superpower is drinking to excess and still saving the world.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Yeah, I do, too. But he's SUPER functional though. Like, completely functional. Arguably more functional than he would be if he never drank another drop. I guess that's where I get most confused!

More TMI time.

My dad was super functional at his job. It was the one thing that brought him peace and his drinking never compromised his work for god knows what reasons and given his work...thank gods. IMO it's because he worked for 30 years before he developed a drinking problem. He got treatment and was able to resume working in his career.

I think of it that way with Dean. He's been a hunter his entire life. He hunted before he had his first beer. IMO the hunting is second nature to him, so the drinking wouldn't necessarily compromise his work. Maybe Dean is self-medicating. Instead of taking xanax and zyloft, he drinks. Yes it's counterintuitive but these guys don't partake of counseling for all the reasons I've mentioned. They have to find some way to cope with the constant trauma they live with every day.

[rue721]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well the reality is that this show will never deal with those consequences because it becomes "A Very Special "episode of Supernatural.

To be fair, I think that they are currently trying to frame it as, Dean is a heavy drinker but doesn't have a drinking *problem.* In which case, no need for consequences. ;)

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But IRL, not every person who drinks too much faces consequences. There are also the enabling behaviors of those around the person who drinks too much.

Relying on other people enabling you could be a consequence, too, though. I'm not necessarily talking about any really dire consequences, like Dean shoots his thumb off while cleaning his gun in a drunken haze or something! (LOL I know nothing about guns, dunno if that's even possible).

WRT Sam mentioning drinking to Dean a couple times this season (I don't remember it but think someone mentioned that in the episode thread?), maybe that could be a nascent consequence. It could potentially be a wedge between them, or something that bothers Sam. I know if I were Sam and relying on Dean for backup (and company, since they're pretty isolated), I would definitely be very conscious about his drinking, and not that happy about it. Everybody's got to take the edge off, but if dude drinks heavily every night, that's kind of burdensome for whoever has to work with him or rely on him. Also, that's just annoying to be around. Imagine being stuck every night alone in the bunker with someone on his fourth or sixth (etc) drink aghghhhhhhh. ;)

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He's been a hunter his entire life. He hunted before he had his first beer. IMO the hunting is second nature to him, so the drinking wouldn't necessarily compromise his work.

The thing about Sam and Dean's work in particular is that it has zero structure or boundaries. I think that would make it a lot harder to keep up a firewall of functionality around it. Like, if you know when you're going to be expected to work, and you have some kind of structure around your work (infrastructure, routine, etc), then you can probably power through at least somewhat. But the thing of having no schedule or structure or routine or ANYTHING would have to make it a lot harder. They really can't coast AT ALL.

[catrox14]

Just now, rue721 said:

Relying on other people enabling you could be a consequence, too, though. I'm not necessarily talking about any really dire consequences, like Dean shoots his thumb off while cleaning his gun in a drunken haze or something! (LOL I know nothing about guns, dunno if that's even possible).

I understand you're trying to fit this into the genuine real world of alcoholism but like I said in my first comment, not everyone's alcoholism manifests the same way.  I guess I don't know what else you're looking for here from me. If you disagree with my reading that's fine.

[rue721]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I understand you're trying to fit this into the genuine real world of alcoholism but like I said in my first comment, not everyone's alcoholism manifests the same way.  I guess I don't know what else you're looking for here from me. If you disagree with my reading that's fine.

LOL sorry not disagreeing, just wondering what you think. Genuinely asking

[rue721]

Basically, I don't understand why it's an element in the show. And I don't understand how the show is trying to frame it.

In this past episode, I think they were trying to make it not worrying. Like, leaving behind the scotch was a sign of Dean being able to say when enough is enough. But at the same time, they HAVE emphasized his drinking quite a bit over the years. Why make it a pretty major character trait int he first place? Hm. I just don't really get it.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

The thing about Sam and Dean's work in particular is that it has zero structure or boundaries. I think that would make it a lot harder to keep up a firewall of functionality around it. Like, if you know when you're going to be expected to work, and you have some kind of structure around your work (infrastructure, routine, etc), then you can probably power through at least somewhat. But the thing of having no schedule or structure or routine or ANYTHING would have to make it a lot harder. They really can't coast AT ALL.

 

Just now, rue721 said:

LOL sorry not disagreeing, just wondering what you think. Genuinely asking

Okay. I felt like I was having to defend this reading with a 100% real world view and that's not entirely possible.

IMO this show is not going to say that "drinking is bad" don't drink and hunt monsters. They just won't do it. The boys suffer consequences for their actions in other ways,I think the alcohol is the escape. The show isn't going to take that away

 

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

The thing about Sam and Dean's work in particular is that it has zero structure or boundaries. I think that would make it a lot harder to keep up a firewall of functionality around it. Like, if you know when you're going to be expected to work, and you have some kind of structure around your work (infrastructure, routine, etc), then you can probably power through at least somewhat. But the thing of having no schedule or structure or routine or ANYTHING would have to make it a lot harder. They really can't coast AT ALL.

Dean didn't grow up with any structure other than hunting, looking out for Sammy and living in motels. IMO I don't see why structure would help him at all. His structure is a lack of structure. IMO that's partly why he drank so much with Lisa. He was trying to live in a structured existence that didn't suit him.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

Basically, I don't understand why it's an element in the show. And I don't understand how the show is trying to frame it.

In this past episode, I think they were trying to make it not worrying. Like, leaving behind the scotch was a sign of Dean being able to say when enough is enough. But at the same time, they HAVE emphasized his drinking quite a bit over the years. Why make it a pretty major character trait int he first place? Hm. I just don't really get it

It's an element in the show because Kripke wanted to show a blue collar world where guys drink a lot. I'm  not being snarky. I think that is something he's talk about before.

[rue721]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Okay. I felt like I was having to defend this reading with a 100% real world view and that's not entirely possible.

Oh no, sorry. Didn't mean to make you feel attacked!

Just trying to use the real world as a frame of reference, because real life experience is all I've got to go by! How drinking works IRL makes sense to me, at least, even if how it works on the show doesn't ;)

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO I don't see why structure would help him at all.

I mean structure could help in a really practical way. Probably irrelevant for the purposes of the show. I'm thinking things like it's a lot easier to build your work around your drinking (or vice versa) if you know WHEN you're going to be working.

Will try to swallow that Dean can drink half a bar and then be unaffected on a hunt, but it's really difficult for me to suspend my disbelief on that. Which seems kind of silly given that it's a show with vampires and demons and etc etc etc. But somehow it's easier to just accept the existence of angels and things than it is that the human digestive tract works differently in the SPN-verse than ours lol.

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's an element in the show because Kripke wanted to show a blue collar world where guys drink a lot. I'm  not being snarky. I think that is something he's talk about before.

Bleh if it's supposed to be world-building, then how come Dean is the only character who they actually show drinking so much? It's not like they're always showing Jodi getting lit. Or even Sam really. I dunno how Kripke managed to create a show I love so much, because practically everything I hear about or from him irritates me endlessly.

In any case, I guess the main reason that I'm so befuddled is still because of the lack of consequences. Dean seems perfectly functional, so I guess Dean's drinking is not meant to be worrisome or a problem. It's supposed to be a neutral character trait? The supposed "neutrality" of it (as something that Dean does) makes me kind of angry, though.

It makes me kind of angry that they will show a character doing something so destructive and then never show any destruction at all -- but *also* refuse to really laugh it off or acknowledge that they're going a lighthearted route with it (the AbFab route, I guess). I'm frustrated that they would just put it out there and give no within-show reaction or acknowledgement/allowance for audience reactions. It's not really fair to be angry or frustrated, because why shouldn't they do as they want, and give characters whatever habits and traits they want -- but it still bothers me anyway.

[catrox14]

59 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Bleh if it's supposed to be world-building, then how come Dean is the only character who they actually show drinking so much? It's not like they're always showing Jodi getting lit. Or even Sam really. I dunno how Kripke managed to create a show I love so much, because practically everything I hear about or from him irritates me endlessly.

Recently Dean seems to be the primary character drinking. I don't know if it's character trait or a character problem.wonder if there is has been a note from the network to back off on the drinking but Dean gets to for...character reasons? (I really don't know). In the past, they showed most of the main characters drinking heavily or at least it was implied

Dean
Bobby
John
Rufus
Crowley
Sam - binge drinking
Kevin - binge drinking in s8

Ellen owned the Roadhouse so I don't know how much she drank vs owning the bar. 

Random hunters

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

What's weird to me is that on the one hand, there's no doubt that he drinks too much (just based on quantity)...but on the other hand, his drinking seems to have absolutely zero consequences. Not even interpersonal consequences. So I'm not sure that it's problematic, or meant to be. I mean, if there are no adverse consequences, then what's the problem?

And why *aren't* there any consequences?

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

WRT Sam mentioning drinking to Dean a couple times this season (I don't remember it but think someone mentioned that in the episode thread?), maybe that could be a nascent consequence. It could potentially be a wedge between them, or something that bothers Sam. I know if I were Sam and relying on Dean for backup (and company, since they're pretty isolated), I would definitely be very conscious about his drinking, and not that happy about it.

If I'm remembering correctly, Sam does sometimes mention it, or get annoyed. I seem to remember him sometimes in the past saying "Dean, you're drunk," in an annoyed way and refusing to discuss anything with him seriously after that (though unfortunately, I can't remember a specific example right now.) And Sam was very concerned in season 7 and mentioned Dean's drinking and wanting Dean to get help on several occasions.*

It doesn't happen as much lately, but unfortunately Sam and Dean were not in usual places relationshipwise through seasons 8 to 11 where Sam might have reason to make mention of it - either because Sam was angry with Dean or apologetic/guilty because he did something. And with season 10, Dean was more affected by the mark of Cain, and drinking was a much lesser worry anyway as @catrox14 pointed out. But starting last season, Sam and Dean's relationship was starting to get more back to normal, so maybe that's why Sam mentioning it has started showing up more this season: because they are in a better place in their relationship now where Sam might feel like he can show concern.

* Though I have no proof and didn't actually hear anything in this regard, based on how Sam mentioned it so often in season 7 and it seemingly coming to a head, and then Dean going to purgatory and so having to live without drinking while he was there, I got the impression that if Gamble had continued, she would've somehow addressed Dean's drinking problem in some way or another. Either by having Dean realize that he can cope without it - because of purgatory - and then maybe struggle with whether he would start up again or not, even casually because of potentially getting dependent again. But as I said, I have no proof, it was just a feeling I got with the way it seemed to be headed.

[catrox14]

47 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

WRT Sam mentioning drinking to Dean a couple times this season (I don't remember it but think someone mentioned that in the episode thread?), maybe that could be a nascent consequence. It could potentially be a wedge between them, or something that bothers Sam. I know if I were Sam and relying on Dean for backup (and company, since they're pretty isolated), I would definitely be very conscious about his drinking, and not that happy about it.

The thing is that even with Dean drinking he's always been there to back up Sam unless he's been taken out of the fight for whatever reasons. Or some kind of separation. They know each others habits and techniques. Sam has obviously trusted Dean throughout their lives even with all his drinking so I don't think he'd stop now.

For me, hunting is so ingrained in Dean that he'd have to be literally unconscious or lost his memory for him to not be a competent hunter. TMI time. My dad never lost any of his competency at his job despite drinking. I know it defies logic but it was nontheless true.

Edited March 7, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They know each others habits and techniques. Sam has obviously trusted Dean throughout their lives even with all his drinking so I don't think he'd stop now.

I agree that Sam definitely trusts Dean when it comes to hunting. As I mentioned above, I think it's usually some kind of discussion Sam is not wanting to have when he's annoyed by Dean's drinking. (Unless I'm remembering incorrectly - which could be possible. My brain works in mysterious ways and remembers details without always remembering the exact context.)

[mertensia]

On 2/23/2017 at 5:08 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

This probably belongs in the unpopular opinion thread, but your post reminded me of something that's always bugged me a little. Yes, Dean tortured other souls - but - he tortured other souls in Hell.  He didn't snatch innocents from Earth and kill them, and presumably they didn't all get there by trading their souls for anothers', or eating fish on Fridays. Gotta assume they were bad people that probably deserved to be in Hell. I get that it was a terrible thing for a truly righteous man (which I believe Dean is and was) to live with, but it always irked me that this was never even mentioned.

I don't think it matters where or who these people were. Whether he was torturing Pollyanna or Pol Pot, torturing is evil. I don't even care that it was done in Hell; torturing is always wrong.

[PAForrest]

Hi Dean Squad, been dealing with family matters for a couple weeks. Not a lot of time to post. And I still haven't watched/FF'd through the last episode - and quite honestly from everything I've read about it, it may just sit on my dvr for a few more weeks/months. I'm not jonesing. Or I'll watch the first part where Dean rips Mary a new one, delete it, and pretend the episode ends there.

WRT to the drinking discussion, I really believe Kripke decided that was just the kind of thing a blue-collar manly hunter would do. Part and parcel of the on-paper character description. And because Jensen makes everything look cool, it increasingly became Dean's thing, along the same lines of Dean's eating that Jensen adlibbed back in season 1 with the little weanies that ballooned for the writers from that point on.

The drinking habit did seem to reach epic proportions under Gamble, but I don't believe she ever intended to address it/give a name or storyline to it.  To me it just looked like another sidelining maneuver. No one was writing anything else for Dean specifically in those two years in terms of an individual storyline, especially in season 7 - his role was to react to what was going on. I think Gamble and Singer used the drinking as a "storyline" excuse when pressed, but I honestly don't believe they gave it a lot of thought.

But as someone who has lived and dealt with a legit alcoholic for many years, I can tell you that Dean isn't functioning so much as unbelievably superhuman in how it doesn't affect him at all like it would a real person - emphasis on the "unbelievable" part. In other words, it's very obviously playacting drinking for television, and nothing else. And because it's not believable, I honestly don't even pay attention to it. It's on par with breathing at this point.

[SueB]

At a Con, Jensen made it clear that the S7 drinking WAS a plot point they had to drop at the end of the year because they ran out of time.  Which leaves us with plot holes to plug.  But IMO, they are easily 'plugged':

-Dean started drinking less when Cas got vertical (even when chasing bees) and he could see a solution to Dick Roman.  

- As Jensen said, Purgatory dried him out. I'm not sure he actually ate in Putgatory.  Or slept.  But he came back 'cleaned'.  

- I think he's made enough claims and we've seen enough that functional alcoholic (which also comes in a spectrum) is a reliable assessment.  Unlike most functional alcoholics, Dean has more than enough situational awareness that if he had to be without alcohol for a period of time, he'd be able to put it down. He certainly did that for a few weeks in S10 before he said 'screw it'.  

- Since alcoholism is both a physical and mental issue, I think we have to look for its consequence in both aspects. Physically, I think he's reset his liver at least a few times.  And his physical dependency seems like he keeps under control.  He gets angry** and anxious without it IMO but usually during those times, other matters are pressing and he gets past it. Mentally, episodes like last week are when he NEEDS a drink.  If he doesn't have another distraction, he'll find his way to alcohol.  

**TMI both parents were functional alcoholics, Dad far worse than my mother.  You wouldn't have known my Dad was putting away a six pack a day if you didn't see the beer cans.  And he drove us, and took care of my sister and I for at least 16 years in this state. Died of liver cancer (surprise).  My Mother's alcoholism didn't really kick in till she was older. Then it was two double Martini's a night.  She died of Renal Failure.  In BOTH cases, I saw less DTs and more irritablility and depression when alcohol was taken away (for medical purposes). My father was quickly on drugs so he didn't suffer much, but my Mom had a rough year, and at least half of it seemed from the loss of alcohol and the rest from her illness.  

Long term, Dean could lose a step as he ages and that might cause a change in behavior.  One or two close calls and I suspect he'd make a concerted effort.  But unless he's screwing up hunts, I don't see him changing. He expects to die bloody so he's not super worried about his liver. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by SueB

[ILoveReading]

As for s7, I remember and interview with Jensen either at comic con or shortly after where the reporter point blank asked what Dean's story was.  Jensen point blank said, he doesn't have one.  (I wish I saved that link).  Everything at comic con centered about Sam's hallcinations and the Leviathan.  There wasn't a word mentioned about drinking or depression for Dean.  There was a lot of "What about Dean" comments and then a few days later, Singer is suddenly talking about it.

I'm not so sure it was a plot point so much a damage control.  They took what they had and put a spin on it.  The official season description was suddenly changed to include "Dean is hiding something."  That turned out to be Amy.  

I do also remember another interview at the end of the season and some asked about it.  Jensen remarked about how he wasn't sure because he felt that Dean was headed toward a break down but they hadn't done anything with it.

For me, it showed that it was never really a storyline the writers were interested in telling.   But I'm getting a bit to close to bitch/jerk territory so I'll leave it at that. 

As for the topic at hand, its one aspect of Dean's character that I've always found interesting.  That we can gage his mental state.  When the Purge opened  and we saw that Dean had been up all night and was drinking scotch for breakfast than i knew things weren't going to go well for him.    I'm wondering how this weeks ep is going to open up.  Is Dean going to be shown drinking hard stuff again this week.  He has to be suspicious of his mom and his brother.  Dean's pretty observant and he had to see Mick and Sam talking. 

Plus, the framing of the final scene almost seemed to indicate Mary and Sam being on one side and Dean on the other.  (Not saying this will happen, just what the staging looked like). 

Also what what will his relationship be like with Mary.  Is he going to continue to hold her at arms length or will he be more open.  If he's more open, I'll consider the tension between them over and done with that Dean's issues with her aren't going to be brought up again.  But if he's still distant then I might have hope they will be addressed down the line.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

As for s7, I remember and interview with Jensen either at comic con or shortly after where the reporter point blank asked what Dean's story was.  Jensen point blank said, he doesn't have one.  (I wish I saved that link).  Everything at comic con centered about Sam's hallcinations and the Leviathan.  There wasn't a word mentioned about drinking or depression for Dean.  There was a lot of "What about Dean" comments and then a few days later, Singer is suddenly talking about it.

I'm not so sure it was a plot point so much a damage control.  They took what they had and put a spin on it.  The official season description was suddenly changed to include "Dean is hiding something."  That turned out to be Amy.  

I do also remember another interview at the end of the season and some asked about it.  Jensen remarked about how he wasn't sure because he felt that Dean was headed toward a break down but they hadn't done anything with it.

For me, it showed that it was never really a storyline the writers were interested in telling.   But I'm getting a bit to close to bitch/jerk territory so I'll leave it at that.

I remember all of this, too. Maybe at some point, they thought about making the alcoholism a storyline for Dean, but I'm immensely relieved that they never did as that seems like just another soap opera plot/storyline that, IMO, had no place on this show back then and still doesn't. I hope they never go there. 

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

But as someone who has lived and dealt with a legit alcoholic for many years, I can tell you that Dean isn't functioning so much as unbelievably superhuman in how it doesn't affect him at all like it would a real person - emphasis on the "unbelievable" part. In other words, it's very obviously playacting drinking for television, and nothing else. And because it's not believable, I honestly don't even pay attention to it. It's on par with breathing at this point.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

As for the topic at hand, its one aspect of Dean's character that I've always found interesting.  That we can gage his mental state.  When the Purge opened  and we saw that Dean had been up all night and was drinking scotch for breakfast than i knew things weren't going to go well for him.    I'm wondering how this weeks ep is going to open up.  Is Dean going to be shown drinking hard stuff again this week.  He has to be suspicious of his mom and his brother.  Dean's pretty observant and he had to see Mick and Sam talking. 

I think it's a good gauge of Dean's mental state, too. And I think that is what they've settled on it being and it works fine for me. But I also agree that it's clearly only TV alcoholism which can only be translated to functional alcoholism being that he rarely seems affected by it while on the job; so either he waits until after a job to drink(we've seen him do this numerous times) or his tolerance is so high that it's off the charts OR, taking a page from the movie Flight, his job performance may even be enhanced by the fact that he is a greater risk taker precisely because he drinks as he does-yet another reason why,personally speaking, drying him out is not something I'd ever want to see as any kind of a storyline idea for the character. And then there is this:

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

WRT to the drinking discussion, I really believe Kripke decided that was just the kind of thing a blue-collar manly hunter would do. Part and parcel of the on-paper character description. And because Jensen makes everything look cool, it increasingly became Dean's thing, along the same lines of Dean's eating that Jensen adlibbed back in season 1 with the little weanies that ballooned for the writers from that point on.

which I believe has happened, too. BUT-Dean drinks a lot, yes; but he doesn't always drink to escape, IMO. Sometimes he just likes drinking to drink. We saw him take four shots of tequila before riding Larry just a few episodes ago in Regarding Dean. We've seen take shots with a burger for dinner. I know people who do this kind of stuff, too. So there's realism there too-somewhat-and I like that and would never want to lose it. And as others have pointed out-when he's been healed his liver was likely made new; and in the end he doesn't now nor has he  ever expected to die from old age or cirrhosis anyway, so he likely figures it to be one of the few things that he's allowed himself to enjoy considering the life that he lives and has lived. And again, I wouldn't want to see that taken away from the character. It has become one of his defining qualities and whether one views that as a positive or a negative quality, it is what it is, at this point in the show for Dean-a Hunter's Helper-as it likely was for his father and Bobby and many other hunters as the name implies.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Myrelle

[ahrtee]

Never mind....not adding anything to the conversation, but you can't just delete without explanation.

Edited March 7, 2017 by ahrtee

[MysteryGuest]

Personally, I think the show portrays drinking in a really bad way, and that's not to mean that they can't show someone who has a drinking problem.  I just think they're extremely inconsistent with it.  I get that the hunting life is not normal, and Sam and Dean especially have a lot of shit in their lives that they'd probably love to forget, but the drinking is just sort of there, with no explanation.  They've pretty much always got a beer in their hands.

It's been established that Dean likes to party, and in Regarding Dean, it was just assumed that he had tied one on the night before, to the point of actually passing out.  That wasn't what had happened, but neither Dean nor Sam saw that possibility as anything other than something to sort of laugh off.  It's difficult to tell what message, if any, the show is trying to convey.

A few seasons ago, it did appear as though they were trying to show that Dean had a serious problem, but then that was dropped or just forgotten about.  Now, I don't think we're supposed to see him as someone who can't get along without a drink, but just someone who likes to let off steam by getting drunk.  Unfortunately, I do know a lot of people that still find that to be the most fun way to spend an evening.  It lost it's allure for me when I was in my early 20's, but that's not the case for a lot of people who I wouldn't consider to be alcoholics or even problem drinkers.  

[rue721]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

That we can gage his mental state.  When the Purge opened  and we saw that Dean had been up all night and was drinking scotch for breakfast than i knew things weren't going to go well for him.

I think that a lot of shows on the CW (and on the WB before that) tend to use drinking as shorthand like that. Drink a lot = upset. Drink a little = happy/partying. Drink nothing = serious but probably pretty content.

I hate it, and I'm happy if it's going out of fashion!

IMO it's a little bit of overkill on the part of the writers/producers in this case, too. It's not like Dean is difficult to read otherwise. We don't need to see props in order to understand how he's feeling.

But yeah, I think that the explanations that it's there for local color, as writing shorthand, and, within the show, as a method of escapism for Dean all make sense. Out of those three, the only reason I can get behind for including it is the "escapism" thing, though. That seems in-character, actually.

13 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I got the impression that if Gamble had continued, she would've somehow addressed Dean's drinking problem in some way or another.

 

4 hours ago, SueB said:

At a Con, Jensen made it clear that the S7 drinking WAS a plot point they had to drop at the end of the year because they ran out of time.  Which leaves us with plot holes to plug.

Where were they going with it? There was enough emphasis on it that I can believe it was a plot point, and that was also the season of Sam's Hellucinations, so Dean having mental problems would have been in keeping with the other storylines in the season....

But I can't really think where they wanted (or would have wanted) that plot to go?

12 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree that Sam definitely trusts Dean when it comes to hunting. As I mentioned above, I think it's usually some kind of discussion Sam is not wanting to have when he's annoyed by Dean's drinking.

Yeah, I think the interpersonal problems it could create would be more interesting than the hunting/logistical problems anyway. Not that interpersonal and logistical problems don't go hand-in-hand anyway, but I would be more interested in Sam and Dean's feelings about Dean's drinking and how it effects their relationship than in how it effects Dean's ability to drive or whatever.

The kind of thing I'm thinking of is, Dean and Sam are alone together A LOT. If Dean is always in his cups, that would have to be really maddening for Sam. He has nobody sensible that he can talk to then. In that context, it's no wonder that Sam acts so exasperated by Dean's jokes ;)

5 hours ago, PAForrest said:

I can tell you that Dean isn't functioning so much as unbelievably superhuman in how it doesn't affect him at all like it would a real person - emphasis on the "unbelievable" part.

Yes, I agree. But IMO it's hard to just ignore his drinking anyway, because the show really emphasizes it.

TBH, I think it's obnoxious if they're just using it as ~local color.~ And lazy, if it's meant to be a writing crutch to convey Dean's moods.

I'm not saying they have to be Very Serious and create Very Special Episode(s) around it or anything -- in fact, I think that would be really awkward and weird. But to just throw it out there in a way that's totally divorced from reality, and to never give any payoff (even comedic payoff) to all that set-up is unsettling IMO.

YMMV.

 

Also, TIL that my dad's drinking is pretty bad (ETA:  I mean I learned from this discussion, from hearing other people's definitions or experiences of problem drinking). He blew way past "functional" years and years ago. No job, certainly. No responsibility in general, not even driving. Taking alcohol away from him or making him cut back is not possible. On a broad scale, I get pretty frustrated and worried that he can't take care of himself -- there's no way he could ever support himself financially, stuff like that. But day to day, I find it much more difficult to deal with never being able to actually talk to him about anything (because he's just not ever going to be in a state of mind to have a normal/real conversation, and can't be reasonable).

Anyway, that's my frame of reference for when Dean will say things to Sam like about how he's resigned to dying young and badly, or when he will be drinking A LOT or in a really destructive way. It bothers me. It's hard not to take seriously because in real life, that's a pretty serious situation. It's so serious that I can understand a reasonably "light" show like this even handling it as comedic. Like, if you can't cry, then laugh. Etc. But to have no impact at all...that actually does make me kind of mad. Not that I know exactly what the show should do to in terms of having it have "an impact."

I am finding the discussion really interesting and also pretty sad. Going to have to visit my dad tonight lol.

Edited March 7, 2017 by rue721