Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[rue721]

A choice isn`t negated for me if one option carries a bad self-image or looks bad to others. People do say: screw the pressure and responsibility and then walk away.  Is this not then seen as their choice? Are they not then blamed and looked down upon occassionaly for that choice? If so, the inverse must also be true. It`s can`t only be a choice if you choose door number two but otherwise, it`s the responsibility of another person.    

 

The bad consequence isn't a poor self-image or others thinking less of you, it's YOUR LOVED ONE BEING DESTROYED.

 

That's such a horrible consequence that, how can you honestly turn your back and let that happen? And yes, technically, some people can and do. But imo it's forcing someone's hand once you make clear to them that either they're going to do what you need them to do, or you're going to destroy yourself.

 

That's a trump card. I don't think that Dean twirled his mustache and thought, "hmmm better use my trump card." But he pulled that trump card nonetheless -- consciously or not. And Sam folded. He came back.

 

ETA: and I don't think that Dean was making any bones about it that without Sam, he was DONE. It also had to be something that Sam was worried about, because this is the man who had sold his soul and damned himself before. It's not like self-destructiveness is totally foreign to Dean.

Edited February 21, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

After Dean went to Hell, Sam began binge drinking himself into oblivion and was willing to make deals with all manner of devil and angel to get Dean out of Hell even after Dean told him to go on with his life. He continued that downward spiral by fucking Ruby and drinking her demon blood and trying to kill Lilith. 

 

  He did those things because he was severely depressed after Dean died and was sent to fucking literal Hell. Sam  could barely go on. And yet when Dean shows up alive, Sam wasn't particularly eager to give up his ways just because Dean didn't like what he was doing.  Hell one would think just Deans' being alive would enough reason for Sam to stop. 

 

But he couldn't because he was too far gone. He lied to Dean about ceasing and desisting from Ruby.  Sam's choices were a betrayal of all the suffering Dean experienced in Hell, but Sam could never see it that.  He could only see his own pain.  Dean was compelled to try and stop Sam because Dean thought it was wrong and Cas told him the angels would stop him if Dean didn't.  So by the reasoning of Dean manipulating Sam consciously or not to compel Sam to come back to him to save him, Sam did the exact same thing in s4 because Sam's actions were essentially suicidal whether Sam knew it or not.  YMMV

[rue721]

So by the reasoning of Dean manipulating Sam consciously or not to compel Sam to come back to him to save him, Sam did the exact same thing in s4 because Sam's actions were essentially suicidal whether Sam knew it or not.  YMMV

 

Yeah, I agree, which is why I said yesterday that I thought that Sam fucked up similarly in S4 when Dean got back from Hell and Sam was too wrapped up in his own pain about his brother going to Hell to actually be there for him. I do think that they're relatively analogous situations.

 

It bugs the shit out of me to have someone's pain over having to *witness* someone suffering be the focus, rather than the pain of the person *actually suffering.* So I felt like Sam needed to get his act together and put Dean first when Dean got back from Hell, and Sam was too wrapped up in his pain over watching Dean go to Hell to actually do that. And I felt like Dean needed to get his act together and put Sam first when Sam kicked out Gadreel, and Dean was too wrapped up in his pain over the threat of losing Sam to actually do that.

 

ETA:

 

That was also my issue with Pac Man Fever, and that episode's obsession with Charlie's pain over her mother's injury/death, to the exclusion of giving *any* focus to her mother's pain. And in that episode, too, it was all about Dean being upset about witnessing what Sam was going through, rather than Sam being upset by what he himself was going through.

Edited February 21, 2015 by rue721

[Aeryn13]

The bad consequence isn't a poor self-image or others thinking less of you, it's YOUR LOVED ONE BEING DESTROYED.

That's such a horrible consequence that, how can you honestly turn your back and let that happen? And yes, technically, some people can and do. But imo it's forcing someone's hand once you make clear to them that either they're going to do what you need them to do, or you're going to destroy yourself.

That's a trump card. I don't think that Dean twirled his mustache and thought, "hmmm better use my trump card." But he pulled that trump card nonetheless -- consciously or not. And Sam folded. He came back.

ETA: and I don't think that Dean was making any bones about it that without Sam, he was DONE. It also had to be something that Sam was worried about, because this is the man who had sold his soul and damned himself before. It's not like self-destructiveness is totally foreign to Dean.

 

We see this completely differently. The very fact that some people can do that and walk away makes it a choice IMO. So staying is also one. The loved one who is getting destroyed, well, in some cases they made choices that led them there. So their destruction is on them ultimately. 

 

However, handling depression is not something you just do IMO. If Dean had said "Sam, you don`t forgive me right this instant, I`m going to kill myself", THAT is manipulation to me. But being depressed while someone else is around? It`s just being depressed while someone is around. It`s not as if you magically get better if they weren`t around. Or that if you weren`t depressed in the first place if they weren`t around.  

 

So, Dean happened to be depressed. He happened to not be able to do anything about it this time. He happened to be suicidally reckless. Sam happened to be around. And happened to see it. And happened to have responses to it. Everything Sam-related here is IMO Sam`s choices. Taking on the MOC recklessly was Dean`s. But not how Sam reacted. If or if he didn`t forgive him. If he stayed around or not. Any of that, it is 100 % Sam`s choice for me. If he felt compelled or forced to do it? It`s not less of one.   

 

And I felt like Dean needed to get his act together and put Sam first when Sam kicked out Gadreel, and Dean was too wrapped up in his pain over the threat of losing Sam to actually do that.

 

Again, if depressed people were able to do that, they probably would.  

 

And in that episode, too, it was all about Dean being upset about witnessing what Sam was going through, rather than Sam being upset by what he himself was going through.

 

That has been the writing trope for the brothers most of the time, though. Sam had the mytharcs, stuff happening to him. Dean reacted to that and emo-ed about it. In lieu of major stuff not happening to him, that is what they filled his screentime with. I didn`t care for it because this has to be the only show in history incapable of writing for more than one person simulteanously but it is what it is.

 

If Sam had the emo over his own mytharcs, what was Dean to do? Just be the goofy comic relief character? The exposition dumbboard? Neither are beats for the character I particularly cherish.

[catrox14]

 

And I felt like Dean needed to get his act together and put Sam first when Sam kicked out Gadreel, and Dean was too wrapped up in his pain over the threat of losing Sam to actually do that.

 

But Dean has the additional pain of knowing that his ill-conceived spur of the moment decision to save Sam's life for both Sam and him, resulted in Kevin's murder.  That seems to be getting lost here as to why Dean went off the rails even further. The entire reason Dean left was to find Gadreel to make up in whatever pathetic way he could for that.  And he truly believe he was poison.  And by the time the Purge rolls around, Sam is telling Dean that he is in fact poison.  So I'm really failing to understand why Dean's pain is being disallowed her.

[rue721]

The loved one who is getting destroyed, well, in some cases they made choices that led them there. So their destruction is on them ultimately.

 

It doesn't matter who gets *blamed* for their destruction -- who cares who it's "on"? Imo the perception of other people who aren't involved or even your own desires are basically trivial once there's a clear crisis like that. What matters at that point is that someone you love is being hurt and might be killed. That's specifically why instigating a crisis like that is pulling a trump card -- once it's a crisis like that, the well-being of the person in crisis has to come first, it has to trump everything. That's why you'd have to go back to them. To try and stop them from being hurt or killed -- regardless of who is doing that to them, themselves or anyone else.

 

That doesn't leave everyone around or who love the person in crisis much of a choice other than to focus on them. Yes you can choose to throw your loved one into the trash and walk away, but I don't see that as a viable option for Sam specifically.

 

However, handling depression is not something you just do IMO. If Dean had said "Sam, you don`t forgive me right this instant, I`m going to kill myself", THAT is manipulation to me.

 

Dean made it clear that if Sam didn't forgive him ASAP, he was going to kill himself. After Sam said he needed space, Dean was drinking himself into a stupor, hanging out with Crowley, and taking on the Mark the very next episode.

 

Again, if depressed people were able to do that, they probably would.

 

Obviously Dean knew that Sam couldn't just dump the demon blood and focus on Dean, and Sam knew that Dean couldn't just dump his own angst and focus on Sam. Which is why they each went back to their brother's side at those moments, despite being angry/upset and needing help themselves. And why they both struggled with their supposed choice to stand by their brother when they themselves were floundering.

 

That's where Sam's anger in The Purge was coming from imo, and why I find it galling that Dean took that in the worst possible and most personal way, didn't give Sam's feelings or argument any credence, and then crowed to Sam as he WAS DYING IN SAM'S ARMS that Sam had come around to his way of thinking after all. Dean wouldn't give an inch, not to his dying breath.

 

I was 100% fine with Dean being pissed off and upset when Sam was self-absorbed and canoodling with Ruby while Dean was struggling with coming back from Hell and needed him to be his rock, and I'm 100% fine with Sam being pissed off and upset that Dean was wallowing and similarly acting self-destructive and wrapped halfway around Crowley's pinky finger when Sam needed some space from him and to get his own head on straight after the possession.

 

I found Sam selfish when he was focused on the demon blood and Ruby and I found Dean selfish when he focused on his own terror over losing Sam. And I do think that they each had the literal ability to have been less selfish than they were, but they were oblivious to that and/or didn't bother.

 

But Dean has the additional pain of knowing that his ill-conceived spur of the moment decision to save Sam's life for both Sam and him, resulted in Kevin's murder.  That seems to be getting lost here as to why Dean went off the rails even further. The entire reason Dean left was to find Gadreel to make up in whatever pathetic way he could for that.  And he truly believe he was poison.  And by the time the Purge rolls around, Sam is telling Dean that he is in fact poison.  So I'm really failing to understand why Dean's pain is being disallowed her.

 

Because Kevin's death was a direct result of Dean's decision to keep Sam alive via the possession -- which in and of itself I don't fault him for, because how could he foresee that consequence -- but then when Sam brought up that Kevin's death needed to serve as a lesson for them that Dean's SAVE SAMMY obsession often has terrible consequences for the rest of the world (which is something that Sam was already worried about -- for good reason, considering all the blood he feels (and other hunters apparently feel) is on his hands from him being kept alive through the past apocalypses/psychic kids/Dean-selling-his-soul/etc fiascoes), Dean still wouldn't even *consider* changing his perspective on his SAVE SAMMY mission. He wallowed in his guilt over Kevin's death, but as soon as the idea came up that maybe next time, he should change his perspective on keeping Sam alive at all costs, and he flipped out and acted like JEEZ DOESN'T SAM EVEN LOVE HIM. If Dean is going to rake himself over the coals for Kevin's death but then not actually consider changing his perspective (or really anything) because of it, then that's just masochism, imo. And very theatrical masochism imo given that he was saying he'd burn for it and that it's proof he's poison etc etc etc.

 

Anyway, I'm not understanding what it means for Dean's pain to be disallowed? Obviously it is allowed, since it has since taken center stage in both his and Sam's lives.

[Aeryn13]

 

Dean made it clear that if Sam didn't forgive him ASAP, he was going to kill himself. After Sam said he needed space, Dean was drinking himself into a stupor, hanging out with Crowley, and taking on the Mark the very next episode.

 

 I guess I can`t say more than I totally disagree with this. What Dean did, I don`t even see remotely as a message to Sam in the way you see it. Let alone in a manipulative "forgive me or else" sense. When Dean took on the Mark, Sam HAD his space. They were separated then and I`m not sure Dean thought they would be un-separated in the near future. Them meeting up again happened after the Mark. At which point, Dean could hardly go back in time and not take it. The deal was done.  

 

 

That's where Sam's anger in The Purge was coming from imo, and why I find it galling that Dean took that in the worst possible and most personal way, didn't give Sam's feelings or argument any credence, and then crowed to Sam as he WAS DYING IN SAM'S ARMS that Sam had come around to his way of thinking after all. Dean wouldn't give an inch, not to his dying breath.

 

Then I guess I`m worse than Dean because I thought those were the most vile, insulting words ever spoken to Dean by a non-villain. In fact, I don`t think I`ve heard such a denigrating speech even from a villian.

 

The entire speech was one big generalization that boiled down to "you are a callous coward who thinks he does good but never does". It held NO qualifiers whatsoever or pertained to the Gadreel issue. It said Dean was crap and has been crap his entire life, before, during and after the Gadreel issue. I hated the hell out of that speech. And Sam was as good as dead to me after phrasing it as such. I would have barfed had Dean been forced to "acknowledge" any "truth" in that drivel. 

 

The ONLY thing I had no problem with in this speech was "I wouldn`t save you the same way". That was fair. Anything else? Pure and utter loathing. As such, you can be sure I crowed about it in the Season 9 Finale, too. I fistpumped when Dean made that crack.    

 

 

It doesn't matter who gets *blamed* for their destruction -- who cares who it's "on"?

Generally speaking, I do. I`m a tally-person, competitive as heck, I admit it. For me it is important who does what, who does the save, who wins the fight, who has the arc, who is THE hero and also who is responsible for that. I can`t help it. Very rarely do I think a team won, as in actually a group of people had equal input in a win, Usually, it`s one or two stand-outs even then and thus, they deserve the bigger recognition.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Aeryn13

[Demented Daisy]

Disclaimer: all that follows is wrapped in a big bow of IMO.

 

Let's analyze what Sam said in The Purge:

 

You think you're my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you're doing is worth it because you've convinced yourself you're doing more good than bad...

 

 

Fair enough.  Dean admitted he doesn't always think these things through, but he believes he did the right thing.  Sam disagrees.  Fine.

 

But you're not.

 

 

Sam could not have hit below the belt any harder than this.  Dean has devoted his life to saving people -- not just Sam.  Now Sam implies that the good he's done is completely outweighed by the bad.  This is something that Dean has wondered about himself, but it's one thing to have self-doubt.  It's another when the person you love most in the world tells you that your life has been a waste.  That none of the good matters because of the bad.  How does one not take that personally?

 

You are certainly willing to do the sacrificing as long as you're not the one being hurt.

 

 

This is a flat-out lie.  This was calculated to hurt Dean.  Dean sold his soul to save Sam.  Dean was thinking of saying yes to Michael if it would save Sam and the rest of humanity.  Dean was Death for a day so Sam could get his soul back.  

 

Sam knows that Dean has sacrificed for him -- whether Sam wanted it or not.  The implication here is that everything Dean has done has been for selfish reasons.  That the brother he raised from a baby means nothing in comparison to his own wants, needs, and desires.  

 

I never hated Sam until that moment.  To me, it was the most arrogant, self-serving, petty, ungrateful, and deliberately hurtful thing he could have said to Dean.  I have since forgiven "Sam" because, IMO, TPTB realized they made a huge mistake with that speech.  But at the time, I was utterly disgusted.  I still hate that episode and the majority of S9 for that reason.

[rue721]

Generally speaking, I do. I`m a tally-person, competitive as heck, I admit it. For me it is important who does what, who does the save, who wins the fight, who has the arc, who is THE hero and also who is responsible for that. I can`t help it. Very rarely do I think a team won, as in actually a group of people had equal input in a win, Usually, it`s one or two stand-outs even then and thus, they deserve the bigger recognition.

 

Tally? Recognition? I have no idea how that would come into it.

 

Faced with the threat of watching someone you love kill himself, I would assume that the reason you would feel compelled to put everything else aside in order to help him is because you don't want him to die. Or at least not be in so much pain.

 

Dean was in a lot of pain, to the point that he was self-destructing. He was letting Crowley steer him pretty much wherever Crowley wanted him to go. He was getting drunk and lying to Sam about what he was doing. When Cain told Dean that he couldn't kill Abaddon himself because AS A DEMON he felt like killing (even killing his wife's murderer) made him a worse person than he wanted to be and a worse person than his late wife would have wanted him to be -- Dean said that *he* would do it then. If that's not someone who thinks he's damned, I don't know what is. When you're doing a DEMON'S dirty work, you're DONE imo. Dean was debasing himself imo.

 

He had said pretty explicitly to Sam before and his actions have always backed up that he sees Sam/their relationship is his lifeline. When it was gone, he seemed to feel that *he* was as good as gone. I'm incredulous that Sam would be oblivious to that. Dean hasn't made it a secret. Dean literally said at some point "if there's no you, there's no me."

 

When Dean was falling apart, I assume that Sam was going to feel compelled to put everything else aside in order to help him, since Sam DOES NOT WANT Dean to destroy himself. And his desire to stop Dean from being destroyed was going trump any of Sam's other feelings, like anger over Gadreel or fear over being out of control of his own life, because those things would seem trivial to Sam in the face of Dean being destroyed. But obviously those other feelings and Sam's other problems weren't actually going to go up in a puff of smoke just because there was a bigger crisis afoot. Even simmering on the backburner, those feelings and problems were going to boil over and need to be dealt with from time to time. That has happened a whole lot with Dean in the past, too.

 

My perspective:  the threat of being separated from Sam triggered Dean to put himself into a rapid nosedive toward the Pit (because he would *literally rather die* than lose Sam, and having lost him, he was going to make sure he died). I don't think it was a bluff, I think it was half him punishing himself and half him creating a visible crisis because he was already feeling like a five-alarm fire was going on inside himself. I think that was Dean expressing his emotions as loudly and explicitly as Dean basically ever expresses them. Of course YMMV. I thought it was pretty communicative. Faced with the threat that Dean would literally rather die than be without him/alone, Sam decided that his brother's well-being trumped even his own (imo justified) anger, so he came back to the bunker to try and slow that nosedive. They were both still desperate/distrustful/angry because that in and of itself didn't solve the conflicts that had split them up in the first place, though, and they went at each others' throats. I think that Dean was on tenterhooks because he was worried that he didn't really have his brother (or his lifeline) back and maybe never would. I think that Sam was still stewing over the fall out from the Trials and the possession. Even this season, Dean is still locked into that nosedive (with the Mark), even as Sam has been trying to help him pull out of it. Sam's anger at him also didn't just disappear, nor did Sam's previous hangups about autonomy/control. Both those issues caused problems imo and are still causing problems now.

 

It seems less plausible to me that Sam was just wishy-washy, and came back to the bunker, etc, immediately after Dean started that nosedive just out of indecision rather than out of any worry for or out of a sense of responsibility toward his brother. It seems less plausible to me that Dean's quick deterioration after Sam learned about Gadreel and requested that they split up, was just the continuation of the depression that Dean had been suffering from for about five years by that point, and wasn't about Dean feeling that he was forsaken and struggling with the hope that Sam might extend him that lifeline again (and whether he could still be saved). I mean YMMV, I just honestly didn't even think that that would seem more plausible to anyone else, either.

 

Sam knows that Dean has sacrificed for him -- whether Sam wanted it or not.  The implication here is that everything Dean has done has been for selfish reasons.  That the brother he raised from a baby means nothing in comparison to his own wants, needs, and desires.  

 

I think he meant to imply that what Dean had done w/r/t Gadreel had been for selfish reasons, but things escalated and he went for Dean's jugular as hard as he could. They were both escalating that fight, imo, but Sam really *took it there.* He was so pissed, I couldn't even tell if he realized how crushed his brother was. Though then Dean proceeded to bring it up a bunch more times through the end of the season, so I guess he eventually realized and was like, I LIED, OK?!

 

Tbh I can't imagine a scenario in which things WOULDN'T escalate when you're arguing with someone who's in his cups, and instead of instigating, it probably would have been smarter for Sam to have left the bunker so fast an afterimage was left behind him or to have buried himself so deep in work, Dean would have needed a lantern to get him out. But that's not cinematic, and besides, Sam is infinitely more confrontational than I am, so at this point, I just expect him to be outrageously confrontational and didn't frankly even think much of it when they got into what I felt like was yet another blowout that left Sam seeming full of adrenaline and Dean seeming like he'd just run the gauntlet and was about to puke.

Edited February 22, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

 

. They were both escalating that fight, imo, but Sam really *took it there.* He was so pissed, I couldn't even tell if he realized how crushed his brother was. Though then Dean proceeded to bring it up a bunch more times through the end of the season, so I guess he eventually realized and was like, I LIED, OK?!

 

I do not understand at all how Dean escalated that argument in the Purge.  Sam pretty much blind sided Dean with the most disgusting, soul-crusing, mean shit either brother ever said to the other one. Sorry but I'll never see what Dean did other than say he would save Sam again which was not great but Sam unleashed emotional Hell on Dean. 

 

Oh and BTW Sam also brought up Lisa in the episode too.  I fucking HATED Sam in that episode.

Edited February 22, 2015 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

Tally? Recognition? I have no idea how that would come into it.

 

That was in answer to your question about who cares about blame. Which I meant as an outside viewer, I do care about such things. I wasn`t talking from the viewpoints of the characters. Generally, stuff that bothers me or stuff that I like is coming from my own point of view, different than those of the characters. That is, I can like or love a character I have nothing in common with. Conversely, I don`t often like or love what they like or love. I don`t really want or need to get inside their head like that.   

 

So to me, Dean wasn`t manipulating Sam through depression. Because his actions didn`t appear that way to me. If Sam felt this way, his beef. I don`t have to agree. 

 

 

I think he meant to imply that what Dean had done w/r/t Gadreel had been for selfish reasons, but things escalated and he went for Dean's jugular as hard as he could.

 

He was generalizing from the start. To escalate, he would have had to start out adressing the situation that actually bugged him and - when met with resistance - go wider. But he went all wide, all in. That`s why I don`t buy him talking specifics. He wanted to say Dean`s entire life was a waste and he said it. Or rather, I think he was a writer mouthpiece in that scene and I wanted to drop-kick them. If that was supposed to be a "harsh truths" scene, it missed the truth part by half a planet.

 

 

When Dean was falling apart, I assume that Sam was going to feel compelled to put everything else aside in order to help him, since Sam DOES NOT WANT Dean to destroy himself. And his desire to stop Dean from being destroyed was going trump any of Sam's other feelings, like anger over Gadreel or fear over being out of control of his own life,

 

I remember when Bobby was giving Dean that shit speech about basically getting over his anger because Sam possibly destroying himself was flat-out more important and he, Dean, was a whiny little princess for daring to be hurt and angry, Bobby was cheered on by many. Not by me, the character was half-dead to me after that as well. But if the principle is that Dean has to get over it with no sympathy given, then I`m not gonna cry big bubbly tears if Sam is put in the same position. Equal time and all.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Aeryn13

[rue721]

That was in answer to your question about who cares about blame. Which I meant as an outside viewer, I do care about such things. I wasn`t talking from the viewpoints of the characters. Generally, stuff that bothers me or stuff that I like is coming from my own point of view, different than those of the characters. That is, I can like or love a character I have nothing in common with. Conversely, I don`t often like or love what they like or love. I don`t really want or need to get inside their head like that.  

 

The scenario was about abandoning loved ones in their time of need, and why someone wouldn't feel they were able/willing to do that. So whether you personally are the one adjudicating blame or it's some character within the show, I'm still not seeing where blame or recognition or any kind of tally would come in to it. There's not a contest between different individuals going on there. There's no "win" to be had, so I'm not seeing where credit/blame would come into play or be relevant.

 

Also, more to the point of having that conversation in the first place:  you talked about the consequences for abandoning someone as being other people thinking less of you or you thinking less of yourself. But the terrible consequence that I would think is what's compelling you not to abandon them would be *to the person you're abandoning.* You wouldn't abandon someone you're afraid for because *of what might happen to them.*

 

I can believe that Dean was worried about Sam still abandoning him, I guess. But that's because he's messed up. From a viewer's perspective, no way would I think that Sam wouldn't feel compelled to help Dean if/when he realizes that Dean's in trouble.

 

This is how Dean started the conversation in the Purge:

 

You know, Sam, I saved your hide back there. And I saved your hide at that church... And the hospital. I may not think things all the way through. Okay? But what I do, I do because it's the right thing. I'd do it again.

 

If I had been Sam, I would have turned around and walked out of the room right then and there, because those are already fighting words imo.

 

And a debate with someone who was just sitting alone in a quiet room drinking liquor is not likely to turn out well for anyone imo. I mean who knows what mental gymnastics were going on in Dean's head that he got to the point that he wanted to make that declaration right when he saw Sam. But Sam was pissed and he's very confrontational anyway, so he didn't walk away from the fight. Then at the end of the fight, once things had already gotten pretty nasty, Dean tried to call Sam out by saying he wouldn't do any differently, and Sam was like I TOTALLY WOULD.

 

Idk, I just didn't think that was a huge deal because it seemed like such an obvious attempt on Sam's part to make Dean feel bad rather than the actual truth (which is that Sam was standing right there with him in their kitchen, so he can say that he can walk away from Dean any time he feels like, I guess, but that's obviously not the case since if it were HE WOULD HAVE WALKED AWAY AND STAYED AWAY ALREADY. Whatever the reason, it's obvious that he's not going anywhere atm).

 

But meh I guess I just don't take their fights that seriously in general. To each her own.

 

Oh and BTW Sam also brought up Lisa in the episode too.  I fucking HATED Sam in that episode.

 

Yeah, that was so cold of Sam that it gave me a shiver. Sam just didn't give a shit.

 

I feel like it's par for the course in a close relationship that goes on for decades on end to have some bad fights and get hotheaded and say some really nasty things to each other. But it's not par for the course to become utterly *indifferent* to someone's feelings. Idk, I guess the pettiness and casualness of it was actually what bothered me, it made it seem like they *weren't* going to be brothers anymore.

 

Again though, to each her own.

[SueB]

 

Dean made it clear that if Sam didn't forgive him ASAP, he was going to kill himself. After Sam said he needed space, Dean was drinking himself into a stupor, hanging out with Crowley, and taking on the Mark the very next episode.

I feel a little like we're seeing the events of Road Trip, First Born, Sharp Teeth, and The Purge very differently.

 

I think the sequence is different than you are suggesting. 

- Road Trip: Dean left Sam because he bought into the whole "I'm poison" bit. Sam was furious with Dean and let him go but said the "I'm poison" bit was not the problem. It's left for interpretation but I believe "the problem" was Dean's unwillingness to let Sam die.

- First Born: Sam has no idea what Dean is doing, but Sam is in the bunker with Cas getting healed and then trying to extract grace residue.  So Sam went back to the bunker immediately post Road Trip. We, the audience, see Dean is a mess, but Sam doesn't see it.

So this comment:

 

Faced with the threat that Dean would literally rather die than be without him/alone, Sam decided that his brother's well-being trumped even his own (imo justified) anger, so he came back to the bunker to try and slow that nosedive.

Makes no sense to me.  Sam was IN the bunker. Dean is the one who walked out and was on the road.  Now Sam had gone on a solo hunting trip to New Mexico but Sam was the one based out of the bunker, not Dean.

 

Sharp Teeth is where they get back together physically:  And at first, in Sharp Teeth, Dean tried to send Sam away:

 

 

DEAN: Yeah. Where you comin' from?

SAM: New Mexico.

DEAN:Well, that's a haul. Especially considering that I got this, uh... pretty much covered, so if you want to...

[Clicks tongue and motions to the door]

Now that was a shitty thing to do, BTW, but Dean even lied about photos of Garth in a second attempt to push Sam away. He tries a third time before the deputy calls with his trap. So, at least during half of the episode he tried to ditch Sam. It's true Dean admitted to working with Crowley and taking on the Mark of Cain, but he said it in a rather off-hand fashion and it was not a long discussion.  Further, there was no heavy drinking (or drinking at all, actually) during this episode.  

It IS, however, at the end of this episode that Sam agrees to ride with Dean.  Sam is already in the bunker, he's basically allowing Dean to come back in.  But looking at the conversation, I see zero indication that he's driven remotely by a sense that Dean is in any kind of tailspin.

At the end of Sharp Teeth the conversation is:

 

 

SAM [opening the door and getting out]: I'll send you that postcard.

DEAN: Yeah.

[sAM almost reaches his car before DEAN gets up the nerve to get out as well.]

DEAN: Hey. [sAM turns around] Uh, listen, that night that, uh... You know, we went our -- our separate ways --

SAM: You mean the night you split?

DEAN [pauses, nods] Fair enough. I was messed up, man. Kevin was dead, and I...I don't know what I was.

SAM: Okay.

DEAN: Hell, maybe I still don't. But, uh... I know I took a piece of you in the process, and for that...[DEAN struggles to say the right thing. He finally just vents] Somebody changed the playbook, man, you know? It's like what -- what -- what's right is wrong and what's wrong is more wrong, and... I just know that when... When we rode together... [He pauses, looking for the right words.]

SAM [finishing his sentence]: We split the crappiness.

DEAN [sighs]:Yeah. So...

SAM [decides]: Okay.

DEAN: Okay.

SAM: But something's broken here, Dean.

DEAN: I'm not saying that it's not. I... I just think maybe we need to put a couple W's on the board and we get past all this.

SAM: I don't think so. No, I-I wish, but... We don't...see things the same way anymore -- our roles in this whole thing. Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up hell? Or -- or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? I can't trust you -- not the way I thought I could, not the way I should be able to.

DEAN: Okay, look. Whatever happened... We are family, okay?

SAM: You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family.

DEAN: So, what -- we're not family now?

SAM: I'm saying, you want to work? Let's work. If you want to be brothers...[He pauses, letting DEAN fill in the blank] Those are my terms.

So, I think it's clear that Dean is the one to tries a rapprochement (and its a really WEAK attempt BTW) and asks Sam to ride together again.  Sam is the one who sets him straight that he'll ride with him and hunt with him but their relationship is badly broken.  Dean accepts Sam's terms of "no brothers" but working partners.  This just does NOT strike me as Sam attempting to stop Dean from a tailspin. If anything, Sam is emotionally rejecting Dean more than he did at the end of Road Trip.  Now personally I think Sam was right to set some boundaries.  I thought the "no brothers" thing was kinda stupid but Sam needed SOME space.

Ultimately, I don't see Sam remotely motivated by Dean's mental deterioration when he decides to re-partner with him. In fact, I see kinda the opposite.  Sam is still (rightly IMO) protecting his own issues but accepting that they are better hunters together, despite the problems.  

 

The Purge is where the dynamic gets really ugly. Sam, IMO, certainly notices the tailspin starting in The Purge, but I think part of his vitriol was a rejection of letting Dean's suffering get to him. I think in Sam's opinion he'd had enough.  Dean was doing the drinking and self-righteousness thing again and it pissed Sam off.  I can understand that completely.  So Sam spit out some harsh words. Like you, I see it a serious escalation due to emotions rather than truth (when he suggested Dean never sacrificed himself).  It was fugly as could be. And I don't think Sam was saying "I don't love you." but that is what Dean heard. 

 

In Captive, Sam keeps the doors of communication literally and figuratively closed, even with Dean's sniping.

 

In #THINMAN Dean does the passive/aggressive move to go on a hunt without Sam.  Sam doesn't let him do that, however, and goes on the hunt.  In that episode, it seemed obvious to me he was still debating whether or not he could stick with Dean. At the end, I think watching Harry and Ed split up made Sam think that he probably wasn't going to leave Dean (wow, that sounds so relationship-y ...sorry).  

 

And the very next episode is Blade Runners. It's here that Sam's priorities shift IMO. First he sees Magnus kidnap his brother and then the physical impact of the Blade becomes obvious. He sees exactly what a mess Dean is in when Dean goes primal after killing Magnus.  I believe it's at the end of this episode that Sam starts to put aside his own emotional needs and worry about Dean's mess.  Dean, of course, goes into hide/denial mode. 

 

But even in Mother's Little Helper, while Sam could tell Dean was hiding shit, it wasn't until he found out Abbadon's plan that he gets on board with the taking out Abbadon is really Job #1.

 

In Meta Fiction Sam gets two pieces of data: first he sees Dean went overboard with Gadreel and was out of it and then he sees Cas' concern about the Mark. So Sam now has further proof Dean is in a mess.

 

Alex Annie Alexis Ann showed Sam an unapologetic Dean after being bloodthirsty. Bloodlines had nothing in there for their relationship.

 

King of the Damned gave Sam a faceful of 'supernatural' Dean and Dean being an ass about the Blade.  If Sam wasn't on fairly high alert already, he is now.

 

Stairway to Heaven ends with Dean going feral with Gadreel and now Sam has to lock him up (in the next episode).

 

In Do You Believe In Miracles we FINALLY get Sam referring again to their messed up relationship (talking about living with seeing his own hands kill Kevin) but Sam overtly puts that to the side to take out Metatron.  And he supports Dean's suicide run.  

 

So... while I think Sam noticed in The Purge that Dean was tailspinning, I think he specifically did NOT let himself get manipulated by that. He pushed back, hard, on Dean at the end because he wasn't anywhere near ready to accept Dean back as "family".  To me, it's clear that he was trying to sort out what to do in his head and it did get truncated due to the Mark of Cain/First Blade issue.  But it wasn't due to Dean's drinking, it was due to the mess Dean put himself in. And Dean IMO, didn't take that Mark on to win back Sam.  So...I while I think it's fair to say that Dean drinking in The Purge was potentially an example of him trying to show his suffering to Sam, I think Sam rejected that.  It was The Mark/Blade that took priority, and even then, Sam didn't let go of his anger.

 

I think Sam let go of his anger when Dean died.  I'm not sure that means the issue is resolved, BTW, but it just was no longer the priority for Sam. 

Edited February 22, 2015 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

Disclaimer, part deux: As with Demented Daisy above, all that follows here is in my opinion. Just in case I don't say it enough...

 

I do not understand at all how Dean escalated that argument in the Purge.

 

I'm not so sure about escalating per se, but in my opinion, Dean started the argument, and even though he was speaking softly, he came out swinging. Sam was ready to go to sleep. He even let Dean know, giving a sort of good night, but Dean called him back supposedly to "talk," but what Dean really wanted to do was to prove that he had been right, taking credit for "saving Sam" during their hunt (though I thought that they both saved each other. I could be remembering that wrong, but since I hate that episode, I don't plan on watching it again to be sure,) at the hospital (legitimate, but a sore spot), and back at the church - another sore spot, considering they hadn't made much progress on the "saving people" since then and by saying them together as examples, trying to equate those things (which no, Dean, they aren't the same). And then to push it even farther rather than just leaving it at that, Dean gives the coup de gras, guaranteed to piss Sam off "I'd do it again."  So maybe Dean didn't escalate the fight in progress, but he sure asked for a fight, in my opinion, and he got one.

 

I disagree a bit however on the generality of the fight that follows, though - at least at first. In my opinion, Sam was answering directly to what Dean was saying before about saving Sam's ass. Sam says "my savior," and even though he says "my brother, the hero" which could be construed as a general statement, he brings it all back to just him, Sam, with his examples of "more good than bad" - Kevin getting killed *, Crowley getting away, the angel problem, and the "what's the upside of me being alive." ** So in my opinion, Sam is talking about the times that Dean brought Sam back when it was a questionable idea (I don't think Sam would count his soul, because the "damage" had already been done by Castiel in that case, Dean was fixing it there, and Sam had very much already expressed his gratitude on that one.) and then Sam emphasizes again about it being about him with his being ready to die and "I should have died."  He's basically feeling here like Dean did when Dean felt like he was "on borrowed time" and someone else had to pay for it, and Sam was pissed off when Dean was all "confused" about Sam's saying Dean did it for him (Dean). (In "Faith" Sam admitted that he wasn't very sorry and that he was glad that Dean was back, even if it was selfish because someone else had to die. I'm thinking Dean looking confused and saying "what are you talking about?" in this case when Sam wanted Dean to admit that Dean did it for himself I think annoyed Sam greatly.)

 

But when Sam got to the doing the sacrifice as long as he wasn't the one hurt - that was where Sam got general and was outright saying ugly lies for me. Way out of line and completely crappy even if he was understandably angry. And of course the writers went there, because making Sam say "ugly" things is one of their go tos for "drama" (a la "Sex and Violence"), so that we can have Dean's devastated face in the final shot. Haaaate. (The writers doing that, not Dean's face).

 

* Which I'm pretty sure was what Sam meant by the "even when you mess up." Either that or that Gadreel was not who he said he was. (My opinion, YMMV.)

 

** And Dean's answer of "You kidding me? You and me fighting the good fight together," was an awful response, in my opinion, considering Sam's mood and Sam just talking about how they weren't making any progress. *sigh* It was like Dean was purposely trying to push all of Sam's buttons and piss him off, and it was maybe worse because he probably wasn't trying but was just clueless as to what he was doing.

[catrox14]

 

** And Dean's answer of "You kidding me? You and me fighting the good fight together," was an awful response, in my opinion, considering Sam's mood and Sam just talking about how they weren't making any progress. *sigh* It was like Dean was purposely trying to push all of Sam's buttons and piss him off, and it was maybe worse because he probably wasn't trying but was just clueless as to what he was doing.

 

I didn't have that read on Dean's comment. I think in Dean's mind, right up until that moment, he truly believed that fighting the good fight together is what they needed to fix their problems. It's short sighted but I didn't think he was poking the bear intentionally.

[rue721]

Thanks for the episode-by-episode rundown SueB, that looks like it took a lot of work. You're right, and I'm mixed up on what the viewers knew about at a given time as opposed to what any specific character knew about at a given time, and have mashed that whole string of episodes (and all of S9, probably) together in my memory. To me, Dean is already spinning out of control in First Born. Going anywhere with Crowley and agreeing to get branded by a demon and do that demon's -- and the King of Hell's -- dirty work is already far beyond the pale imo. But I don't remember when Sam finds out about the MoC or about Dean and Crowley being "buddies." So I think I've conflated the viewers' knowledge of what's going on with Dean at that point with Sam's knowledge.

 

So... while I think Sam noticed in The Purge that Dean was tailspinning, I think he specifically did NOT let himself get manipulated by that. He pushed back, hard, on Dean at the end because he wasn't anywhere near ready to accept Dean back as "family".  To me, it's clear that he was trying to sort out what to do in his head and it did get truncated due to the Mark of Cain/First Blade issue.  But it wasn't due to Dean's drinking, it was due to the mess Dean put himself in. And Dean IMO, didn't take that Mark on to win back Sam.  So...I while I think it's fair to say that Dean drinking in The Purge was potentially an example of him trying to show his suffering to Sam, I think Sam rejected that.  It was The Mark/Blade that took priority, and even then, Sam didn't let go of his anger.

 

I think Sam let go of his anger when Dean died.  I'm not sure that means the issue is resolved, BTW, but it just was no longer the priority for Sam. 

 

I think that Dean didn't take the Mark with the specific intention of getting Sam's attention for it, but I think that deciding to literally be branded with the mark of a demon and channeling Lucifer's power through your body in order to help the King of Hell keep his position is making a *major* statement. Becoming drinking buddies with a demon rather than a hunter (and rather than your own brother!) is making a *major statement.* I felt like that was self-destructiveness on a really ostentatious level. How could Sam miss statements like that?

 

I'll rewatch and see how he behaves, but it just doesn't seem to me like Dean was trying to keep his feelings all that secret. Especially since he had already said approximately infinite times over the course of the years that losing Sam would destroy him, so you'd think that Sam would have his eye out for Dean deteriorating, too. *shrug.* I do think that Sam can be a little bit...laissez faire about Dean, but I guess that's the flipside of the same thing that makes it so that Dean can look at this ginormous trained killer who survived literally centuries in hell and see him as vulnerable and worry about him -- Sam doesn't see his big brother as vulnerable or worry about him, I guess, even when he should and imo basically anyone else *would,* because that's just not how their dynamic has been. I think the purpose of About A Boy was to give Sam more insight and to see his brother as someone to try and protect. WELL ANYWAY.

 

I don't think that Dean was even *trying* to keep himself together at that point, not really. Because it wasn't that he was just withdrawing from the good stuff he would have wanted to do if he were able. It was like he was *actively* looking for self-destructive, debasing things to do to himself -- things that would be a betrayal of who he'd been and wanted to be. I mean, Dean of all people becoming drinking buddies with a demon? Meg was bad enough, but damn. That's like if human!Gordan had been clinking glasses with a vampire.

 

Like I said, I think that was partly Dean punishing himself, and partly him trying to reflect on the outside how horrible he felt inside. Reflect his (nightmare) "real" self. He thinks he's damned? Why not walk around with a gigantic brand on his body making that literally and explicitly true. He thinks he's poison? Why not be attached at the hip and working together with the most corrupt (and corrupting) person in the universe, the King of Hell. If that's not an attempt to show that he's DONE, and that he knows he's doomed, than what is? Just like he told Sam that he knew he would burn for Kevin, I think he was setting his life up so that *everybody* would see/know that he's going to burn.

 

Wouldn't he expect Sam to pick up on that and to do something about it? If not, then why was Dean so shocked by Sam saying that he wouldn't save him, in The Purge?

 

I don't think that Dean had *totally* given up hope, because he was still trying to reconcile with Sam. But he was meanwhile destroying himself and making his hope of maybe still being saved less and less possible to actually come true. That actually chokes me up right now. Maybe this sounds like I'm trying to tear Dean down like he's just The Worst. That is not at all the place it's coming from. My point from the beginning is that this makes me *upset for him* because I think this is the exact opposite of who he would have wanted to be. And it seems to me that he's aware of that, and is torn between continuing to hurtle into becoming his worst nightmare and feeling aghast at what he's doing/becoming.

 

I think that we're focusing on different things w/r/t Sam, because I don't think that it mattered whether Sam was angry or not. He was going to be angry. He was going to have to backburner that anger, too, because it's not like he could/would dedicate his life to that anger and vengeance on Dean or something.

 

I think that Sam found out bit-by-bit over the season that he couldn't (and didn't want to) let his brother go, and I think that made him feel a lot more settled into his life and in himself/his choices. But the only way that I think that Dean himself was involved in that was because he was getting himself ready to *go,* and was doing everything but diving straight into Hell face-first, he seemed so ready for the end and oblivion. 

 

The Purge is where the dynamic gets really ugly. Sam, IMO, certainly notices the tailspin starting in The Purge, but I think part of his vitriol was a rejection of letting Dean's suffering get to him. I think in Sam's opinion he'd had enough.  Dean was doing the drinking and self-righteousness thing again and it pissed Sam off.  I can understand that completely.  So Sam spit out some harsh words. Like you, I see it a serious escalation due to emotions rather than truth (when he suggested Dean never sacrificed himself).  It was fugly as could be. And I don't think Sam was saying "I don't love you." but that is what Dean heard. 

 

I guess I figure that Dean's tailspin had to have been on Sam's radar fairly early, because Sam had already been clear that, in his perspective, the crux of the conflict between them was that he felt that Dean had betrayed his trust. If he felt that Dean had become untrustworthy (because obviously Sam didn't think Dean had always been so -- and imo Sam implied that the start date of that untrustworthiness was S8/post-Purgatory, since he mentioned the Trials when he said he didn't feel he could trust Dean and Dean's judgement anymore), that new untrustworthiness had to be linked in Sam's mind with *some* sort of overall deterioration on Dean's part. *Some* sort of tailspin that Sam was now realizing had gotten bad. Because going from trustworthy to untrustworthy is a consequence of a tailspin that must have already gotten pretty major.

 

Also, by bringing up the Trials specifically, imo Sam made it clear that he had issues with Dean as a hunting partner (not just in terms of their personal/familial relationship). By making the "no brothers" declaration, I think that Sam was trying to force Dean to compartmentalize the hunting from their family/personal feelings. Imo Sam thought that could solve the problem, because he thought that Dean's personal feelings had been leaking in and poisoning their relationship as hunting partners and that had been undermining their ability to do their job (for example, Dean not wanting to lose his brother was why he asked Sam to stop the Trials).

 

But then in The Purge, Dean refused to compartmentalize (and the whole MotW was also about the monsters trying and sometimes succeeding/sometimes failing to compartmentalize various things -- family, monstrosity, etc). So I think that by that point, Sam was fed up, and thought, "you don't want to compartmentalize? OK, I'll show you not compartmentalizing!" and tried to drown Dean in a big wave of all the ugly stuff he could come up with about how Dean's personal feelings were fucked up and caused him to do fucked up things that got people hurt. I don't think Sam was concerned about being literally truthful, I think he was just trying to be as hurtful as he could because he was seeing red. Maybe he was trying to make Dean hurt like he was hurting, make Dean feel betrayed like he felt betrayed, Idk. I don't think that Sam was going for truthfulness even about pretty tertiary stuff -- I highly doubt that Sam honsetly thinks Dean thinks he's his "savior," etc.

 

Anyway, before that point, I think that Sam had been thinking that maybe he could trust Dean as a hunter, as long as he took the (untrustworthy) brother stuff out of the equation. But then it became clear that that *couldn't* be taken out of the equation, and Sam was like, "fuck it then." But he still stayed, and they still kept working together. He didn't seem like he thought he could trust Dean to look out for him in any capacity once it became clear that compartmentalizing wouldn't work, but despite not feeling that Dean could help *him,* he still didn't decide to try and split up again. Why not? I think that maybe he thought that Dean needed him. But Idk, that is another spate of episodes that all blend together for me.

Edited February 22, 2015 by rue721

[AwesomO4000]

I didn't have that read on Dean's comment. I think in Dean's mind, right up until that moment, he truly believed that fighting the good fight together is what they needed to fix their problems. It's short sighted but I didn't think he was poking the bear intentionally.

 

Oh, I think you're right about that, and I actually said that in the second part of my comment there; that Dean likely wasn't poking the bear intentionally. But as I said there too, that might almost be worse or at least just as bad, since Sam had just been complaining about them not making much progress, and so Dean right after talking about how they were "fighting the good fight" was likely not what Sam wanted to hear at all (since Sam apparently thought they were losing that fight, so not the best argument for Sam being alive while Kevin wasn't). Dean used to be really good at reading Sam, and here he was pretty much saying all the wrong things, in my opinion. I was thinking "Oh, no, Dean, bad idea, bad idea" through the entire conversation.

 

Now in no way does this excuse the crappy thing Sam said about Dean only doing things because they didn't affect him (Dean), but at the same time I could see why Sam was really frustrated and angry. It was like Dean's mind was on one track and whatever Sam was trying to tell him was just getting run over and / or wasn't registering, because it didn't fit into Dean's narrow point of view. Again my opinion only there.

[7kstar]

Disclaimer: all that follows is wrapped in a big bow of IMO.

 

Let's analyze what Sam said in The Purge:

 

 

Fair enough.  Dean admitted he doesn't always think these things through, but he believes he did the right thing.  Sam disagrees.  Fine.

 

 

Sam could not have hit below the belt any harder than this.  Dean has devoted his life to saving people -- not just Sam.  Now Sam implies that the good he's done is completely outweighed by the bad.  This is something that Dean has wondered about himself, but it's one thing to have self-doubt.  It's another when the person you love most in the world tells you that your life has been a waste.  That none of the good matters because of the bad.  How does one not take that personally?

 

 

This is a flat-out lie.  This was calculated to hurt Dean.  Dean sold his soul to save Sam.  Dean was thinking of saying yes to Michael if it would save Sam and the rest of humanity.  Dean was Death for a day so Sam could get his soul back.  

 

Sam knows that Dean has sacrificed for him -- whether Sam wanted it or not.  The implication here is that everything Dean has done has been for selfish reasons.  That the brother he raised from a baby means nothing in comparison to his own wants, needs, and desires.  

 

I never hated Sam until that moment.  To me, it was the most arrogant, self-serving, petty, ungrateful, and deliberately hurtful thing he could have said to Dean.  I have since forgiven "Sam" because, IMO, TPTB realized they made a huge mistake with that speech.  But at the time, I was utterly disgusted.  I still hate that episode and the majority of S9 for that reason.

I can agree with a lot of your post and that TPTB handled this all poorly.    I also agree with a lot of @Sue B's post.  I think you have to remember some things that each character knew but the other didn't.

 

Sam knew he was ready to die, but Dean only knew that Sam was willing to fight it together, to keep fighting together.  He couldn't save Sam and he couldn't let him die.  So he did the unthinkable and allowed an angel to heal Sam, but he tried to put on conditions.  He even tried to tell Sam, hey you need to know what I've done but at this point it was really too late.

 

Now fast forward to Kevin's death.  It puts Dean in a tail spin and he believes he poison and the worst human in the entire world.  He honestly doesn't understand Sam's last comment but Sam is too angry and let's his brother leave.  Not blaming Sam for this part.

 

Sam doesn't realize how far gone Dean is off the rails.  He doesn't see what we see and Crowley takes advantage of a messed up Dean and gives him a powerful goal & drive.  So he needs the mark to do it, fine he isn't going to live and he deserves every horrible thing that happens next.  He isn't thinking about a future or Sam at all.

 

But the mark isn't a simple issue.  It starts messing with Dean and at first Dean isn't aware how it is doing something to him.  Sam seeing Dean drink heavily isn't anything new.  So for Sam, he isn't seeing anything to cause him to be concern.  He tries to set the boundaries because he really would like to hunt alone, but if he's going to keep running into Dean, why not hunt together and set some rules so it is liveable for him.

 

The Purge is where I get really furious with Sam and really don't give a fig about whether he has a point or not.  He crosses a line that shouldn't have been crossed.  He's no angel and has done some really bad stuff that Dean forgave him for and tried to work through it even when he didn't feel he knew who is brother was.

 

But Sam is a bit slow to put the pieces together and I think he doesn't really get how big it is, even with the signs because he is so mad at Dean.  He just doesn't think it will end like it does, but when Dean dies in his arms, he finally realizes what he is losing.  Now is he over what Dean has done, no I don't think so, I just think he finally accepts that he and Dean will never see some things eye to eye, but his brother's heart is in the right place.

 

This season, Sam has had his eyes opened and like Dean has had to do in the past, he is now spinning in how can he Save his brother, because like Dean, he can't kill him either.  JMV  and I can agree to disagree.  I don't think I can feel sorry for Sam like TPTB wanted me to, and I think it really surprised them when the fans got so angry at Sam.  again, IMO.

[7kstar]

Oh, I think you're right about that, and I actually said that in the second part of my comment there; that Dean likely wasn't poking the bear intentionally. But as I said there too, that might almost be worse or at least just as bad, since Sam had just been complaining about them not making much progress, and so Dean right after talking about how they were "fighting the good fight" was likely not what Sam wanted to hear at all (since Sam apparently thought they were losing that fight, so not the best argument for Sam being alive while Kevin wasn't). Dean used to be really good at reading Sam, and here he was pretty much saying all the wrong things, in my opinion. I was thinking "Oh, no, Dean, bad idea, bad idea" through the entire conversation.

 

Now in no way does this excuse the crappy thing Sam said about Dean only doing things because they didn't affect him (Dean), but at the same time I could see why Sam was really frustrated and angry. It was like Dean's mind was on one track and whatever Sam was trying to tell him was just getting run over and / or wasn't registering, because it didn't fit into Dean's narrow point of view. Again my opinion only there.

I think Dean was too messed up to read Sam.  I think this is something that the audience wasn't suppose to get.  Dean couldn't focus and although he was trying to act like nothing was wrong I think he could no longer care about Sammy's little feelings.  He's drowning and when someone is drowning they can't save someone else no matter how much they want to.  Speaking from personal experience. 

 

I lost a friend who was spiraling downward due to being bi-polar, she reached out to me and I missed it.  I regret that and always will, but at the time I just couldn't help her, I wasn't handling things in my own life and was on overload at the time.

 

This is how I see Dean's speech.   He's desperate and clinging to the one thing that helped.  The two of them fighting the good fight together.  He still isn't thinking correctly, he's still very messed up and pretending with all he's worth he's okay.  He can't hear Sam.  And his speech shows that. 

 

I think Sam somehow get's it but not enough yet, but knows he will keep running into Dean so he sets the ground rules so that if they are going to work together they work.  Sam's reactions would have been fine if Dean hadn't been so messed up, but Sam has never been really good at reading Dean...he always had Dean be strong and pretend to be find.  Sam still falls into the pattern of little brother.  He has to learn how to react differently to get to equal partners and doesn't realize it will be harder for the one that changed the diapers to forget that stuff.  He just doesn't get it and I think on some degree it is okay.  JMV  Hopefully this is clear,  I am a bit tired.

[shang yiet]

Sam had the mytharcs, stuff happening to him. Dean reacted to that and emo-ed about it. In lieu of major stuff not happening to him, that is what they filled his screentime with. I didn`t care for it because this has to be the only show in history incapable of writing for more than one person simulteanously but it is what it is.

 

Now major stuff is happening to Dean and he is still emo-ing big time and still hogging the emo arc as well as the mytharc.  It's like two characters can't have emotions at the same time.

[AwesomO4000]

Sam's reactions would have been fine if Dean hadn't been so messed up, but Sam has never been really good at reading Dean...he always had Dean be strong and pretend to be find

 

We'll have to agree to disagree here, since I thought that Sam was actually pretty good at reading Dean for much of the series, especially since he generally saw right through Dean's "pretending to be fine" act (both in season 2 and in season 3) and then again when Dean started going off the rails (he even guessed where Dean would go when he ran off on his "suicide tour") in season 5. Sam was even was able to tell something was really wrong with Dean and knew to use cases as a distraction even while he himself was having hallucinations in season 7. For me, it mostly seemed to be the Carter era where Sam started being really off in that regard.

 

The Purge is where I get really furious with Sam and really don't give a fig about whether he has a point or not.  He crosses a line that shouldn't have been crossed.  He's no angel and has done some really bad stuff that Dean forgave him for and tried to work through it even when he didn't feel he knew who is brother was.

 

This is true, but Sam also took his lumps for it and knew and admitted that he was wrong. He may not have gotten quite as bad as Dean got from Sam in "The Purge" in some respects, but at least Sam was willing to work with Dean even if it was in a working relationship for a while. Dean, on the other hand, had pretty much told Sam - even after Sam admitted that he was wrong and that if he had to do it all over again, he would've done it differently - that there was nothing Sam could do to make things right, they couldn't ever be what they were, and that Dean couldn't trust him. And for Sam's version of "The Purge" speech, Dean disowns him and tells him they're better apart, pick a hemisphere, have a nice life, "bye, Sam." The reason Dean came back was due to seeing Zachariah's future, but he didn't really forgive Sam, and it came out in remarks here and there. Sam took the lumps and worked to gain Dean's trust back. Dean didn't really actually forgive Sam until more than 3/4 of the season was over (18 episodes).

 

The interesting thing to me is that it is somehow perfectly reasonable for Dean to be angry and disown Sam, and the sympathy is with him, but when Sam is the one wronged and is angry, the sympathy is still with Dean. Yes, Sam said horrible things. He was angry, but he didn't start the fight. He'd been trying to be civil and work with Dean. And Dean in this case didn't even really admit he was wrong. He said he was sorry for Kevin, but insisted that he "had no choice" and then deflected with "I'm poison," pulling the sympathy card (yes, Dean meant it, but that's beside the point. It was still passive-aggressively taking away from Sam's right to be angry right after finding out about the betrayal by making it all about Dean.) Sam even told Dean that that wasn't what it was about. So 3 episodes later, Sam was trying to get over his anger, but Dean decided to pick at the scab trying to heal and make it worse, trying again to say "see, I'm right". Yes, Dean was messed up, but so was Sam. So when Dean waved the red flag in Sam's face, he attacked.

 

Sam was also freaked in "The End", but Dean didn't really seem to care, and basically told Sam as much. He had no intention then of even giving Sam a second chance, and didn't even seem to care that Lucifer was trying to influence Sam. It's not saying "you're crap, I'm done with you, and I couldn't care less" in actual words, but it's saying it none-the-less, in my opinion. I personally don't get why that is somehow a more acceptable response, myself, since I think they were both crappy responses even if they both had a point, but I guess mileage varies.

Edited February 22, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

The scenario was about abandoning loved ones in their time of need, and why someone wouldn't feel they were able/willing to do that. So whether you personally are the one adjudicating blame or it's some character within the show, I'm still not seeing where blame or recognition or any kind of tally would come in to it.

 

I was initially talking about it in the context of the people who do walk away. If they`re cold-blooded enough to do that, then IMO their consequence is not a loved one being destroyed - because they have shown that this is not their priority and they can put that aside - but a negative image. Ironically, for some people they would care about THAT and try to migitate that. There are enough people who care about their image and perception way more than people in their lives.

 

 

But meh I guess I just don't take their fights that seriously in general. To each her own.

. 

It depends on the fight. For me, such things can make or break a character. And this one was crossing ten thousand of my lines.

 

 

But I don't remember when Sam finds out about the MoC or about Dean and Crowley being "buddies." So I think I've conflated the viewers' knowledge of what's going on with Dean at that point with Sam's knowledge.

 

So, you still think Dean was manipulative to the degree you thought he was? Because if Sam hadn`t had that knowledge and awareness to that degree, then that couldn`t have been his impetus for staying around.

 

 

Maybe this sounds like I'm trying to tear Dean down like he's just The Worst.

. 

Maybe that`s because, again, tally person, because yes, that is how I`ve taken most of what you said which is why I`m coming from a place of defending the character. So maybe we`re talking at cross-purposes and admittedly, I get passionate in defending characters.

 

 

And for Sam's version of "The Purge" speech, Dean disowns him and tells him they're better apart, pick a hemisphere, have a nice life, "bye, Sam."

 

And if Sam had done that after the Gadreel situation, I actually wouldn`t have had a problem with it. If he feels he can`t forgive it or even look at Dean anymore, that`s his right. I have no problem with having lines and then, if they crossed, cutting people out of your life. If that`s what you need to do, that`s what you should do.

 

But I have a problem with denigrating someone`s entire life. I know, they may be just words but words are important to me. If you cast such a value judgment on a person - and even the "then you are a monster" comment in their Season 4 fight was contingent on "if you do this" aka a certain action taken NOW and thus being a monster NOW - that is not something I can take. That speech was hateful. And the writers needed to be kicked in the teeth for it.    

Edited February 22, 2015 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

Quote

Sam's reactions would have been fine if Dean hadn't been so messed up, but Sam has never been really good at reading Dean...he always had Dean be strong and pretend to be find

 

I strongly disagree that Sam has never had a good read on Dean; just as I think Dean has always had a good read on Sam. Sam knew Dean would want to fix baby and would be pissed if Sam scrapped her as Bobby suggested in In My Time Of Dying. Sam also knew that Dean was reeling from John's death in S2 even though Dean was refusing to talk about it, Sam kept trying. Sam knew Dean had made a deal for Sam's life at the end of S2 before Dean outted himself and Sam knew Dean was scared and didn't really want to go to hell in S3. Sam knew Dean was lying to him about remembering Hell in S4 and Sam knew exactly where to find Dean in Point Of No Return. Sam knew Dean was keeping something from him in early S7 and also knew Dean was reeling from Bobby's death in late S7. I agree with AwesomO, this Sam not having a good read on Dean seems to be something more of the Carver years to me too. But, I'd also say that I don't feel like Dean generally has much of a read on Sam any more either.

 

Personally, I think The Purge exchange was just TPTB maintaining the holding pattern between Sam and Dean. It seems to me Dean was just waiting for Sam to get over it and forgive him so they could go back to normal. And Sam was waiting to hear Dean say he wouldn't do it again so he could forgive him and they'd go back to normal. But, Dean kinda forces the issue here and Sam basically lashes out at Dean. Was it fair or truth that Sam spouted? Oh hell no! Nor do I think Sam actually believed it or that TPTB believe it either, but felt like a somewhat natural argument between two people who can't see the other right then. I don't know, I've been pretty angry at my siblings and spouted some stuff I regretted at times. The difference is, I usually owned up to it and apologized later. That's why I say I would've preferred a better through line with this other than an "I lied" and an "I'm proud of us" at the end of the season.

 

 

ETA: I don't think Dean was trying to pick a fight with Sam at the end of the episode, but I do think he started the tit-for-tat crap at the top of the episode that lead to Sam bringing up Lisa. I think that's why Dean was trying to resolve the issue at the end of the episode, him realizing that things could just keep escalating until really hurtful truths were said. Ironically, his trying to push for resolution only led to angry spouting of hurtful lies and half-truths. I'm not saying I liked what Sam said or even that I have totally forgiven him yet, but I understand what they were trying to do with it anyway. To bad they didn't do it better is all.

Edited February 22, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[7kstar]

Nothing on this show, IMO, is cut-and-dried or one-sided.  Every single one of the main characters (and some of the minor) have made decisions that had unintended consequences, some good, some bad.  It's what makes the show dynamic and compelling, IMO.

I can agree with this and it is the layers of the two leads that makes it watchable after many stupid issues created by bad writing.  IMO.

 

I strongly disagree that Sam has never had a good read on Dean; just as I think Dean has always had a good read on Sam. Sam knew Dean would want to fix baby and would be pissed if Sam scrapped her as Bobby suggested in In My Time Of Dying. Sam also knew that Dean was reeling from John's death in S2 even though Dean was refusing to talk about it, Sam kept trying. Sam knew Dean had made a deal for Sam's life at the end of S2 before Dean outted himself and Sam knew Dean was scared and didn't really want to go to hell in S3. Sam knew Dean was lying to him about remembering Hell in S4 and Sam knew exactly where to find Dean in Point Of No Return. Sam knew Dean was keeping something from him in early S7 and also knew Dean was reeling from Bobby's death in late S7. I agree with AwesomO, this Sam not having a good read on Dean seems to be something more of the Carver years to me too. But, I'd also say that I don't feel like Dean generally has much of a read on Sam any more either.

 

Personally, I think The Purge exchange was just TPTB maintaining the holding pattern between Sam and Dean. It seems to me Dean was just waiting for Sam to get over it and forgive him so they could go back to normal. And Sam was waiting to hear Dean say he wouldn't do it again so he could forgive him and they'd go back to normal. But, Dean kinda forces the issue here and Sam basically lashes out at Dean. Was it fair or truth that Sam spouted? Oh hell no! Nor do I think Sam actually believed it or that TPTB believe it either, but felt like a somewhat natural argument between two people who can't see the other right then. I don't know, I've been pretty angry at my siblings and spouted some stuff I regretted at times. The difference is, I usually owned up to it and apologized later. That's why I say I would've preferred a better through line with this other than an "I lied" and an "I'm proud of us" at the end of the season.

 

 

ETA: I don't think Dean was trying to pick a fight with Sam at the end of the episode, but I do think he started the tit-for-tat crap at the top of the episode that lead to Sam bringing up Lisa. I think that's why Dean was trying to resolve the issue at the end of the episode, him realizing that things could just keep escalating until really hurtful truths were said. Ironically, his trying to push for resolution only led to angry spouting of hurtful lies and half-truths. I'm not saying I liked what Sam said or even that I have totally forgiven him yet, but I understand what they were trying to do with it anyway. To bad they didn't do it better is all.

I can see the places that Sam tries and has understood his brother, but there are also places where even though Sam said the words, it didn't feel for me that he really meant it.  I know there have been plenty of places that Sam's words of asking forgiveness was destroyed just a few moments later by his actions. 

 

Some places Dean didn't understand what Sam wanted or needed.  Yes he still saw him of the baby brother that needed protecting and since that was his role in life far longer than Sam wanted him to be that, he kept doing it.  Also just about every time he caves and does what Sam thinks is the right thing, it turns out the worst thing ever.

 

Sam couldn't control Lucifer for instance and had Dean not shown up even though I think they were trying for this and kind of failed at it....Sam wouldn't have gotten control long enough to jump in the cage.

 

Also sometimes Sam's reads are not correct.  In families that fight this happens all the time.  I can remember my  mother telling me why I felt a certain way and she was so off course it was easier to just shut up and let her think she was right.  Although on one hand I should relate to Sam more, I really relate to Dean more.  I also see both brother's making mistakes.  I also see Sam not hearing Dean but picking the point that for him made sense.

 

I blame the writers for the Purge mess.  It backfired because they didn't have a handle on the fans of Dean nor Jensen's acting range.  Sam is in the Dark about so many things and because Sam's missing so much information, he doesn't have a clue how far off the rails Dean is.

 

If Dean had let Sam die like he wanted...just what would have been the outcome?  Charlie would be dead...Sam still doesn't know this.  Cas would be dead, again Sam doesn't know this.  Then Kevin dies at Dean's hand because he didn't let him in on the secret.  I will say this was the one death I didn't even react too, because I no longer cared who died on this show.

 

Sam could have walked away and I wouldn't have had a problem.  He could have said I don't know if I can forgive you which is what I heard Dean do to Sam in Season 5.  Sam stayed because he wanted to get a second chance and also because being on his own was way too dangerous.  It was the reverse mode the show loves to do so much.

 

Right now I agree Dean isn't reading Sam very well, he isn't even able to take care of himself.  He's also doing something different from season 3.  Instead of hiding, he is coming out in the open and just telling Sam what he is feeling.  This is the difference and I think it scares Sam to death. 

 

This is also where the story is so compelling and complex.  The two can't be really separate from each other because their actions and reactions are really effecting each other. Which is why I kept this all in this thread.

 

I also think this is where my life story that is also complex influences my view on this.  I see the points you make about Sam doing something positive, but in the next part I see where Sam goes and does something that totally negates it.  I think Sam's "I lied,"  was his way of saying I get it a little better now.  It's not so easy as I thought.

 

I also still wonder how many stories like 'Bad Boys' does Sam have?  In 'the End', Dean tells himself I know what you're doing to them.  How can you do this?  He is the only one that can read himself and can't believe that his older self would be willing to sacrifice everyone to achieve the goal.

 

I'll end with I don't think either character will be allowed to do the right thing.  Because it will never be over and just when they think they've got it solved another obstacle gets thrown into the mix to screw it all up again.

 

Dean is hanging on by a thread, I doubt he's told Cas what Cain told him.  It will be interesting to see how Sam can deal with the issues that Dean dealt with Sam all through the first 5 years. 

 

It is interesting for me because it is allowing Dean to grow and who else can Sam turn to understand what is going on.  Interesting this time he is reaching out to an angel, the same issue he had with Dean he is now grasping at because the weight is too heavy to bear.  I think this is what he is finally understanding.  He didn't deal with the weight in the same way before, so I hope where they go next is interesting. 

 

So far this season I've liked Sam and Carver wrote this Sam.  So I'm hoping that we'll finally get the brothers fighting together.

 

Dean thought he could keep fighting until he couldn't but he didn't count on the obstacles that Cain threw at him.  How can he tell Cas and Sam what he is really so scared to death about.  How can he open up to them, when he's never really been able to before and now the mark is messing with his ability to think and feel. 

 

These questions make me excited and dreading what is coming.  I don't know that we are really all that far off, but there are points we just disagree on, but that is what makes life interesting isn't it?  JMV and hopefully it makes sense.  Unless a new point is made I'll drop it because it will get redundant if I don't, right?  :)

Edited February 22, 2015 by 7kstar

[Mcolleague]

Sorry to get too snotty about it. Everyone has their own experience. Ime self-destructiveness and even acting/being suicidal can become a choke chain that someone uses to keep the people who love him acting how *he* wants them to act, regardless of what's good for them. It's the ultimate trump card, *especially* if it's not a bluff. To make things more maddening in this specific scenario, imo:  First, Dean decides that he needs Sam alive, so he makes the decision about the possession. Fine. But then when Sam tries to become autonomous again and says he's going to take some space, Dean starts spiraling out, tugging on that choke chain, and then Sam is right back next to him in the bunker. I don't think it's usual for Dean in particular to pull that kind of thing, it's his first time to do so afaik. But it's something that gets my back up. On the one hand, it's got to be burning Sam up with rage and fear inside, he must feel trapped and powerless, but on the other, it's not as though he can turn that on Dean, because Dean's fragile right now. Let alone do what he would usually do, and look to Dean for help! And where else would he want to be, anyway? Meh, terrible situation imo.

 

I don't mean to get snotty about this either, but as you say, we all come from different experiences, and some of these issues are hard not to take personally. My issue with your rationale in this specific situation is that your assumption of Dean's manipulative intent is based primarily on the impact of his behaviour on Sam. Sam's feelings of guilt/responsibility etc. towards Dean does not have a direct causal relationship to Dean having ulterior motives with his self destructiveness. Family members being negatively affected by someone's depression is not evidence of manipulative behaviour on their part. This kind of rationale surrounds RL depression with a lot of stigma, because this speculative attribution of malicious intent is so unspecific and can be applied to everyone with depression, and DOES, to blame them for not "choosing" to get better. I'm very uncomfortable with the implication that Dean should not have reacted to his own traumatic experiences because of how it can adversely affect Sam, that because it can hurt Sam, Dean's own grief, trauma and immense guilt can be dismissed as being invalid/irrelevant, and that he is wrong/failing for not being able to overcome it. 

 

Many other people have already given a lot of reasons for why we see Dean's intentions differently (thank you SueB for looking up the transcripts!). I'm just going to add a few more of mine:  

1. Dean did not make demands for Sam to stay with him. If anything, he tried to separate from Sam (Road Trip) and drive Sam away (Sharp Teeth). The textual explanation given for them staying together was that for reasons of practicality, they needed to hunt together as hunting alone was dangerous.

2. Dean being self destructive and seeing his worth only in weaponizing himself for the greater good is not specific to this arc with Sam, it has been fairly consistent through most of the last ten years. It is heightened in Season 9, and his approach to it is more immediate/urgent - but it is not new. There is plenty of precedence for Dean exhibiting this trait and pattern of behaviour in the past when it had nothing to do with Sam. 

3. There is also an explicit explanation given within universe for this new found immediacy - the discovery that the angel possessing Sam is not Ezekiel (the good angel vouched for by Cas), but an unknown psycho angel who made off with Sam's body and caused Kevin's death. Dean's change in behaviour was immediately following this specific event in the plot, and not following any confrontation with Sam. 

 

I could go on, but this comment is already long enough as it is so I'll stop here.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Mcolleague

[rue721]

I was initially talking about it in the context of the people who do walk away. If they`re cold-blooded enough to do that, then IMO their consequence is not a loved one being destroyed - because they have shown that this is not their priority and they can put that aside - but a negative image. Ironically, for some people they would care about THAT and try to migitate that. There are enough people who care about their image and perception way more than people in their lives.

 

If you see that someone is in pain and could die without help, the risk is that if you don't help them, they will be in pain and could die. I don't even understand how this is contentious. I also don't understand why you're trying to construct some bizarre hypothetical case where a person sacrifices for someone else and cares for them out of selfishness or vanity. That's a big sacrifice to make for vanity. Probably better to just get a boob job or something.

 

So, you still think Dean was manipulative to the degree you thought he was? Because if Sam hadn`t had that knowledge and awareness to that degree, then that couldn`t have been his impetus for staying around.

 

Sam's knowledge and awareness and even his impetus for staying around have nothing to do with whether it was terrible (for a multitude of reasons) that as soon as Sam said they should split up, Dean basically soaked himself in gasoline and lit a match, and figured he would either get to Hell a little early or, on the off-chance, Sam would save him. (And he obviously had not given up all hope and thought there was at least an off-chance of that since he got so upset/hurt in the Purge when Sam said that he wasn't planning to save him).

 

I have said ad nauseam at this point, Dean wasn't sitting there twirling his mustache and thinking of ways to get attention, but he obviously decided that he was either back with Sam or he was DONE. When he and Sam got back together, he apparently thought that that meant he wasn't DONE after all, and to him, not being DONE meant continuing to "fight the good fight" just as before. He didn't seem think he had to change, and he really underlined that imo when he said he would do exactly the same thing all over again. And he still hasn't changed his thinking one iota, as far as I know. *Sam* has changed his perspective, apparently, but otherwise, everything has been ignored or put on the backburner in order for them to focus on the crisis at hand.

 

Though I don't think Dean is being consciously manipulative, I do think that this perpetual state of crisis has basically been a get-out-of-jail-free card for him so far, in terms of having to actually deal with the problems between him and Sam and in his own life, and I think it's keeping the bulk of the power in the situation and in their relationship in his hands.

 

Not that the crises themselves have been a cakewalk -- they haven't. I think Dean has been legitimately putting himself through the wringer. But I think that, in a way, it's easier to say I'M JUST POISON and give up on yourself than it is to really *try* to be a better person even if you're afraid you're not capable (which is what Cain did for his wife and why he refused to kill Abaddon himself imo), and to really *try* to make things right even if you don't think you can (which is what Crowley *didn't* do after he "connected" with Sam in the church and started crying about how he didn't even know where to start with being forgiven). So even as Dean's punishing himself beyond all reason in some ways, I *also* think he's going easy on himself in the ways that actually matter. It's like when he was forcing himself to starve on egg-white omelettes and nasty kale sandwiches, but barely hesitated to grab a big knife.

 

Again, I think that slow-motion-suicide and abdication-of-familial-responsibility-via-prioritization-of-perpetual-crises was virtually the same as what John was doing in S1, and I know that Dean struggled with his doing that that because it was onscreen, so it aggravates me and also makes me sad for him that he'd do the same thing to Sam. I know it's an UO but it it seems to me that in terms of how he behaves, there's not all that much difference between Dean in S10 and John in S1. The reason I bring this up yet again is to emphasize that I see this as history repeating itself -- I don't think this reaction is entirely in Dean's hands or conscious on his part, I don't think he can help it all that much, and the more self-aware he is about it the more I would expect it to pain him because he gets the double whammy of being in pain himself and also being able to empathize with Sam for *how he himself* is distressing Sam.

 

Imo it's analogous to a (hypothetical) storyline like:  given that Bobby decided not to have kids because he was afraid of being like his own father and terrorizing and beating them, if how things had turned out was that Bobby had then agreed to babysit and came to feel like a father to some children, and ended up actually scaring them and hitting them.

 

FWIW, that's also similarly to how I see Dean's storyline in S6 with Ben and Lisa (not that he was specifically afraid of or was going to beat them or anything like that, but I mean in terms of being so terrified of something happening again, that you dwell on it to the point of accidentally recreating it, and eventually it *is* happening again -- because *you* made that so). My heart broke for Dean in that storyline, and my heart breaks for him atm. But at the same time, imo his lack of self-awareness and his behavior now is legitimately dangerous, much more so than it was at that time, so I'm wary of him, too, and wish that he would get more insight/pull back/mold his behavior around some other goal (such as being good to Sam) rather than continuing to spiral deeper and deeper into self-destructiveness and do what I *know* he would never want to do and pull Sam into that pit along with him. I think that he's trying somewhat to do that, actually -- I think he's *trying* to find some anchor or guidance right now in S10. But he's a mess and it's not really working.

 

I also expect Sam to feel desperate and angry over getting dragged into that pit -- out of fear and resentment on *his own* behalf -- even as he knows he needs to go, because he can't just let his brother sink into it alone.

 

But apparently Sam is just chillaxing and decided to partner up with Dean for no obvious reason. (Not snarking at you guys, snarking at the show, because I think that's sloppy/dumb writing). Wtvrs.

 

Maybe that`s because, again, tally person, because yes, that is how I`ve taken most of what you said which is why I`m coming from a place of defending the character. So maybe we`re talking at cross-purposes and admittedly, I get passionate in defending characters.

 

Defend a character from what? From me having opinions about his actions?

[Aeryn13]

 

If you see that someone is in pain and could die without help, the risk is that if you don't help them, they will be in pain and could die. I don't even understand how this is contentious.

 

And I say there are people for whom that risk is more than acceptable, they simply don`t care. But they do care about how it would look to outsiders. I know people like that, I`m not making them up. That doesn`t mean they actually stay and help but they will do their damnedest to make them still look good, despite walking away. Some of them even manage that. 

 

I haven`t said that this is what Sam did. But it`s not a completely hypothetical scenario in the world.

 

 

Though I don't think Dean is being consciously manipulative, I do think that this perpetual state of crisis has basically been a get-out-of-jail-free card for him so far, in terms of having to actually deal with the problems between him and Sam and in his own life, and I think it's keeping the bulk of the power in the situation and in their relationship in his hands.

 

I don`t know how to adress this because I couldn`t disagree more. One of my big issues with the show has always been that Dean didn`t have equal power in the relationship. Not really. Let alone having the bulk of it.

 

Also, I don`t think Sam is victimized here or that Dean does to him what John did to Dean/them both. The Gadreel possession, yes, that was a terrible act on Dean`s part. But his depression, I don`t put in the same category. And the last thing I actually want to see is Dean going back to "oh, how does it affect Sam, what about Sam, what`s up with Sam, how can I be good to Sam".

 

Sam has made it clear that he doesn`t want Dean revolving around him. Now finally Dean has a supernatural problem of his own to obsess over and Sam gets Dean`s old role. I`ve waited long for this role reversal.   

 

 

But I think that, in a way, it's easier to say I'M JUST POISON and give up on yourself than it is to really *try* to be a better person even if you're afraid you're not capable

 

Despite what the character believes about himself, I don`t think he has to actually try to be a better person. He is a good person IMO. I actually find him to be the best person on the show. Which is not actually because he`s my favourite. On Vampire Diaries my fave is Damon and I can admit that 95 % of the main cast are better people than him. So it`s not about that. But with Dean, the two actually combined for me. He is too hard on himself but but I think what he managed so far has actually been pretty great and impressive. 

 

 

 

Defend a character from what? From me having opinions about his actions?

   

You said yourself you might sound like you were tearing him down but that wasn`t your intention. I said that I read your posts prior to that AS tearing him down so I tried to defend him. It`s not an uncommon thing to do when discussing characters. I was just explaining why I might have come across as too strong before.  

 

In the end, I guess we can agree to disagree on the characters. 

Edited February 22, 2015 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

but there are also places where even though Sam said the words, it didn't feel for me that he really meant it.

 

Both brothers do this, and just about equally for me, so I've come to expect it sometimes. I think it's a bad side effect of having to live their lives being a Lying Liar who Lies. Sometimes they might not even realize they are doing it and/or convince themselves that they really are being sincere.

[7kstar]

@rue721

 I can see some of you points although we really don't agree.  Depression is nasty and Dean's coping skill for his depression has been to drink and ignore it.

 

But I don't see him doing any of this to force Sam to be with him.  Nor do I see Sam as a little kid being dragged along.  Sam could have walked away from Demon Dean but he didn't.  He could have walked away when Dean asked him to hunt with him in Season 9 before the Purge, but he didn't. 

 

Dean can't go to a doctor and explain why he is depressed and get drugs.  By the way drugs don't always help, sometimes the reactions can be much worse and the person does kill themselves despite trying to do something healthy.  That's real life.

 

Most people don't make major changes from their normal patterns and reactions.  It is a very few that actually have the ablitity to see what is going on and try to find changes.  Dean has actually tried to follow Some of Sam's suggestions but it hasn't worked.

 

Sam know's that if he doesn't help Dean, he will have another Demon or worse the Father of Murder on his hands.  He's not stupid.  So I don't see your point that evil Dean dragged Sam into all of this even if it wasn't intentional.  Dean naturally shut down and didn't believe he had anywhere else to go.  He was in the dark hole that people that think about suicide reach and it wasn't a trick...or someway to manipulate Sam...it was just Dean naturally giving up because he didn't think he had something to fight for anymore.  He couldn't see a point of trying and in his mind he was saving Sam because his prior attempt to save Sam had really done so much worse.

 

I can see your point that he would hate doing to Sam what was done to him...but again he didn't see it. 

 

I will end with this thought.  I'm a teacher.  A student's father killed himself just before Christmas.  So many were furious at him for not thinking about his kids.  The oldest girl found him and actually tried to stop him before he slammed the door in her face.

But at that point all rational thought was gone.  All he had was emotions and terrible feelings and he just wanted the pain to go away.  In his mind he was saving them from him, because he was the worst Dad ever.  Suicide happens because the person is stuck in a monologue.  If you can get them into a dialogue you have a chance to get them help.  But it isn't as cut and dried as they like to paint it.  It is messy and painful.

 

I also had a relative that I loved so much and I even understood his rational for not seeing me as he went through one of his most painful times in his life.  But before he died I chose to ignore his request.  I'm glad I did.  I told him what I felt before he died and also said that love means you are there for the messy parts, the good and bad. 

 

Dean is like a wounded animal that is wandering off to lick his wounds before he dies.  But he won't get a death and Sam now knows this.  So yes, he has to suck it up and try to help his brother.  But the motivation isn't anything other than love for me.  He loves his brother and gets no matter how angry he is at his brother's actions and even that they will never see eye to eye on some things. he wants to stick with him.  Otherwise, he could chose to walk away.  That was Sam's earlier method, but he isn't walking away...he's dealing with the pain and trying to find a solution. 

 

I also know that we fans will never see everything eye to eye and will disagree.  It is okay not to see it the same.  I also agree that I wish the writing was stronger, but on the other hand I understand how difficult of a job it is to do.  I teach theatre and try putting on a one act play in 8 days.  That's a lot of lines to work up and put together.  I try doing it in 2 months with middle school kids...talk about nightmares.  :)

 

They don't get a long time to write it either.  They have 8 days to get the scripts done while the actors are bringing the scripts to life on the show they just wrote.  It's hard to act/direct/ and write.  Don't believe me, try it.  Get some kids or adults together and see what issues pop up trying to create from scratch.

 

I had an opportunity to talk with a Head Writer/Producer of another show.  His comment really stuck with me and I think he's right on.  Your lucky if during a season you have a few really great shows, a few good shows and then you have a lot of bombs.  It is much easier to pick a show apart than it is to create it.   

 

Us picking the show apart for me is done with love.  I love both Dean and Sam.  Plus it is a great distraction from real life issues that I don't want to deal with or think about.

[DittyDotDot]

They don't get a long time to write it either.  They have 8 days to get the scripts done while the actors are bringing the scripts to life on the show they just wrote.  It's hard to act/direct/ and write. 

 

While I don't disagree with your point--it's easier to nitpick than create it--but I do believe they only spend eight days shooting it, but the actual episode takes far more than eight days to complete. The writer's spend weeks on their scripts, then pre-production is about eight days, shooting is eight days and post differs depending on visual effects and such.

[AwesomO4000]

I think Dean was too messed up to read Sam.

 

ETA: I don't think Dean was trying to pick a fight with Sam at the end of the episode, but I do think he started the tit-for-tat crap at the top of the episode that lead to Sam bringing up Lisa. I think that's why Dean was trying to resolve the issue at the end of the episode, him realizing that things could just keep escalating until really hurtful truths were said. Ironically, his trying to push for resolution only led to angry spouting of hurtful lies and half-truths. I'm not saying I liked what Sam said or even that I have totally forgiven him yet, but I understand what they were trying to do with it anyway. To bad they didn't do it better is all.

 

I agree with these two points and should qualify that while I said that Dean "was asking for an argument" I was mostly looking at it from Sam's perspective. I agree that Dean wasn't trying to pick a fight. He was trying to resolve the conflict. Unfortunately, in my opinion, he was trying to resolve the conflict without really talking about it. I think he was hoping that by comparing how he rescued Sam that day to what happened with Gadreel that Sam would "see the light" and agree with him... which goes to his not reading Sam very well, because nope, the situation wasn't the same and was much bigger than that - and not just because of Kevin either, but because there was lying and deception and the question of trust involved - and instead of being a quick resolution to the situation, it was more like getting Sam's neck fur up, and then the desperate "and I'd do it again" ending to that was just about the wrongest thing he could have added - the red flag waving that I was talking about. And by saying those things I think Dean was "asking for an argument / fight" in the sense that those words were pretty much guaranteed to get him one, but I agree that that wasn't what he wanted to happen.

 

So I was maybe a little too harsh when I said that Dean "came out swinging." I think he did in the sense that he was trying to show Sam that he (Dean) was right about this - because that's what his words did seem to be trying to do, to me - but I agree his intentions weren't to start a fight about it. Actually the opposite, really, because I think Dean was hoping that Sam would agree with him (which that's some wishful thinking there), see that "yay, us together, hunting" would trump all, and the conflict would magically go away. Unfortunately his "swing" didn't land because it was the totally wrong strategy and things to say and he ended up, as I mentioned above, picking at the scabs that were trying to form (unintentionally.) The result being that it mostly just made Sam angry, because he's heard this before (season 3) where it ended really badly, and Sam struck back with a vengeance.

 

I guess what I'm saying was that it was a big misunderstanding - made worse for "teh drama" (boy melodrama moment doesn't even apply here for me as this went way beyond that in my opinion), and I wanted to smack the writer(s) in the head for doing this - to Sam's character especially... again.... especially since the end game ended up just being "oh, well, Dean was right after all..." again. In other words, it wasn't really necessary except for "teh drama." My opinion only there.

[Demented Daisy]

I guess what I'm saying was that it was a big misunderstanding - made worse for "teh drama" (boy melodrama moment doesn't even apply here for me as this went way beyond that in my opinion), and I wanted to smack the writer(s) in the head for doing this - to Sam's character especially... again.... especially since the end game ended up just being "oh, well, Dean was right after all..." again. In other words, it wasn't really necessary except for "teh drama." My opinion only there.

 

This is what I don't get.  I don't care who was right and who was wrong.  I don't care about tit-for-tat.  I don't care about tallying up wins and losses.  I don't care who gets the emotional moments or relationships or Big Hero Moments.

 

I care about Sam and Dean and their relationship.  Give me a good story of the good guys fighting the good fight.  Together.  I don't give a damn about anything else.

[AwesomO4000]

This is what I don't get.  I don't care who was right and who was wrong.  I don't care about tit-for-tat.  I don't care about tallying up wins and losses.  I don't care who gets the emotional moments or relationships or Big Hero Moments.

 

I care about Sam and Dean and their relationship.  Give me a good story of the good guys fighting the good fight.  Together.  I don't give a damn about anything else.

 

I actually agree. I'd like that story focus, too.

 

My gripe is the way that Sam is proven wrong which is what I was trying to get at in my above post without getting really wordy. Because more and more lately - to me - Sam being wrong appears to come after Sam's character is shown vehemently and damagingly supporting his wrong position. That's the part that bugs me - not his actually being wrong.

 

I expanded my rant / discussion on this over in the "Bitterness..." thread. Warning: It's pretty ranty. And long, since i explain. In depth.* Read at your own risk.

 

* And it's kind of creepy that as I type that, I am hearing the bikini clad girl from that Supernatural sit-com in "Changing Channels" saying it in my head. Okay - time to step away from the thread for a while i think  ; ) .

[rue721]

Sam know's that if he doesn't help Dean, he will have another Demon or worse the Father of Murder on his hands.  He's not stupid.  So I don't see your point that evil Dean dragged Sam into all of this even if it wasn't intentional.  Dean naturally shut down and didn't believe he had anywhere else to go.  He was in the dark hole that people that think about suicide reach and it wasn't a trick...or someway to manipulate Sam...it was just Dean naturally giving up because he didn't think he had something to fight for anymore.  He couldn't see a point of trying and in his mind he was saving Sam because his prior attempt to save Sam had really done so much worse.

 

Sam knows that if he doesn't help Dean, he will have another demon or worse the Father of Murder on his hands -- so he is *compelled* to try and help Dean. *That* is precisely how Sam is left without a real choice imo. So fine, he's going to help him. I'm just pointing out that Dean's deterioration laid responsibility on Sam's shoulders. I don't think that Sam really had the choice to shirk that responsibility because of what was at stake. I also doubt that Dean didn't realize he was falling apart and wonder whether Sam would help him or what it would take to get him to. I'm just honestly not understanding why that's appalling, but so be it.

 

Again, I don't think that Dean was trying to act as a puppeteer with Sam. I simply think he forced Sam's hand when he fanned the flames of a crisis (by allying with Crowley and getting the MoC, etc). I think that he was probably looking to fan those flames for a number of different reasons that I've brought up earlier -- punishing himself, proving to himself (and everyone) what he's capable of (terrible things/killing), explicitly damning himself, etc. I think that crises also have brought their family together in the past, and when he was fanning the flames of a crisis he held out the ghost of a hope that the crisis would bring him and Sam back together, and that Sam would step in to help him (or at least work with him again). Also for the n-th time, I don't think that's what he *expected* to happen or that he had machinations running to make that happen, but I think that he was still holding out that hope. Until Sam said in the Purge that NOPE he wasn't planning to save Dean. I think Dean was mixed up enough at that point to actually believe Sam, and to interpret that as Sam not caring about him anymore.

[catrox14]

 

also doubt that Dean didn't realize he was falling apart and wonder whether Sam would help him or what it would take to get him to. I'm just honestly not understanding why that's appalling, but so be it.

 

I'm interpreting your comments as no matter what happened to Dean, why he went off the rails or chose to redeem himself and possibly off himself at the same time as being primarily calculated moves and if not calculated then subconscious manipulations by Dean to pull Sam back to him which IMO is a particularly harsh judgment on Dean. And even with Dean's decisions to walk away from Sam it's attached to a narrative that Dean again is doing it as a manipulation to pull Sam back.

 

I guess to me, it's like the only thing Dean could have done to have it not be construed as selfish and manipulative on Dean's part was to agree with Sam that he was wrong, that he would never save Sam in the same way again. And it doesn't seem to allow for any of Dean's perspective, feelings and emotional devastation at knowing that his ONE decision to save Sam resulted in betraying Sam and Kevin's murder.  And it seems like no matter what Dean would do, he cannot be redeemed.

[Demented Daisy]

Sam knows that if he doesn't help Dean, he will have another demon or worse the Father of Murder on his hands -- so he is *compelled* to try and help Dean. *That* is precisely how Sam is left without a real choice imo. So fine, he's going to help him. I'm just pointing out that Dean's deterioration laid responsibility on Sam's shoulders. I don't think that Sam really had the choice to shirk that responsibility because of what was at stake. I also doubt that Dean didn't realize he was falling apart and wonder whether Sam would help him or what it would take to get him to. I'm just honestly not understanding why that's appalling, but so be it.

 

That sounds kind of cold and calculating on Sam's part, which I disagree with.  I think Sam is helping Dean because he wants to.  Despite everything, I believe that he still loves his brother and doesn't want to see him as a demon again.  Demon Dean said that he didn't want the cure, but Sam knew that wasn't the truth.  He knew that Dean would never want to be a demon.  He had to hate seeing Dean like that.  

 

Why would he not want to help his brother, no matter what his brother did?  

[7kstar]

While I don't disagree with your point--it's easier to nitpick than create it--but I do believe they only spend eight days shooting it, but the actual episode takes far more than eight days to complete. The writer's spend weeks on their scripts, then pre-production is about eight days, shooting is eight days and post differs depending on visual effects and such.

Guy Norman Bee ‏@guynormanbee 15m15 minutes ago

Writing I'm not too sure about... As a guest director I have 7 days to prep (casting, location scouting) and 8-9 days to shoot an ep.

 

Guy responded to a tweet so this is the directing side. 

 

Another writer responded to my tweet and said unless there is an deadline issue the writer has more than 2 weeks.  It also depends on the writer's speed of writing an ep.  I just knew the 8 and 8 and thought the writers got the same time frame.  So perhaps the writers are fair game after all.  I can get some of it though, when I've written something and then a reader sees something I never even intended which causes issues I never thought would happen.  So it's still on one hand it's difficult and on the other hand what were they thinking.

 

My real frustration with season 4-9 is that I was so ready to see the brother's fighting together.  Some of the really poor judgments were due to the writing creating the issues.

 

I don't see Sam in the same light as Rue does as for me, it means that Sam has no free will.  He could chose to walk away, but I believe he doesn't because he loves his brother enough to try, just as Dean did for him in the first few years when Sam thought he was losing his mind dealing with his powers.    So I'll just agree to disagree and let it drop. 

 

I also know that sometimes you have to walk away, and make the person deal with their harsh life choices even when it hurts like crazy. 

 

Dean thought he would die...he didn't do anything to make himself turn into a demon and I think it is why he is now angry at Crowley among other things.  So for me the real question is what are they planning and will I like it?  But I'm really hoping that for once it is the 2 brothers equally fighting the good fight together.  It's been too long since I've seen that.  That was the show I fell in love with.  I know Dean is a hero and I know that Sam can be brave.  I want to see the brother's be hero's together and maybe for a short time is it too much to ask for a win????

[DittyDotDot]

While I don't disagree with your point--it's easier to nitpick than create it--but I do believe they only spend eight days shooting it, but the actual episode takes far more than eight days to complete. The writer's spend weeks on their scripts, then pre-production is about eight days, shooting is eight days and post differs depending on visual effects and such.

 

Another writer responded to my tweet and said unless there is an deadline issue the writer has more than 2 weeks.  It also depends on the writer's speed of writing an ep.  I just knew the 8 and 8 and thought the writers got the same time frame.  So perhaps the writers are fair game after all. I can get some of it though, when I've written something and then a reader sees something I never even intended which causes issues I never thought would happen.  So it's still on one hand it's difficult and on the other hand what were they thinking. 

 

Moving to TPTB thread...

[rue721]

Honestly, I don't understand where the idea that I'm levying a harsh judgment on Dean *or* Sam is coming from. It's surprising that people are reading me as thinking the worst of either of them, apparently to the point that it's insulting, because imo I actually give each of them a huge benefit of the doubt. Way more than I give actual people in my real life. I'm not even getting how it would be possible to give *more* of a benefit of the doubt?

 

That sounds kind of cold and calculating on Sam's part, which I disagree with.

 

Most of the quote you bolded is actually a direct quote from 7kstar (it's part of her block quote in the post of mine that you quoted).

 

I don't see the cold and calculating thing. The point was that the stakes were too high for Sam to just walk away, because his brother was (is) in serious danger. Dean was in danger of destroying himself, and he was in danger of becoming dangerous to others. Sam had been torn about staying around Dean at that point in S9, and was feeling angry/betrayed, but all that had to become beside the point once it turned out that the stakes were so high, Dean was fighting for his soul, etc. Obviously, Sam wasn't actually going to leave Dean to twist in the wind, he *had* to help him.

 

Earlier, I believe that Aeryn13 was saying that Sam had the choice to just abandon Dean. Realistically, I don't think he had that choice, I think that once he knew that Dean was in trouble *of course* he had to help Dean. Whatever was going on with him at that time had to be pushed aside because there was a real crisis afoot. He could say "no brothers," but obviously that wasn't going to hold. He *couldn't* just let Dean damn and kill himself.

 

I believe that 7kstar was saying that yes, Dean was in a lot of trouble, but not trouble that Sam could help him with, because Dean was already far gone into depression or too suicidal. I think that Sam was/is still compelled to try and help him, even if it ultimately doesn't work. There's nobody else to have Dean's back. I can't imagine Sam ever just writing off Dean as a lost cause anyway. I think Dean was maybe afraid that was going to happen at one point (in S9), because *he* (Dean) was afraid that he was a lost cause. But I personally never thought that Sam thought that or would do that.

 

It just doesn't make sense to me that Sam wouldn't feel compelled to help Dean if he knew he needed it, and that both Sam and Dean wouldn't realize that. I don't think that's calculation or manipulation or anything. It seems much more brutal to think that Sam would consider it a real option to just walk out on Dean knowing that Dean was in dire straits, or that Dean would be so distrustful of Sam that he wouldn't even feel confident that Sam would help him if Sam knew he needed it.

 

I'm interpreting your comments as no matter what happened to Dean, why he went off the rails or chose to redeem himself and possibly off himself at the same time as being primarily calculated moves and if not calculated then subconscious manipulations by Dean to pull Sam back to him which IMO is a particularly harsh judgment on Dean. And even with Dean's decisions to walk away from Sam it's attached to a narrative that Dean again is doing it as a manipulation to pull Sam back.

 

I really don't know what the harsh judgment on Dean is. That his self-destructive spiral might have only-partially-and-even-that-probably-only-subconsciously been a cry for help, and that he might have carried the ghost of a hope that his brother would hear it? That he might have tried to hold onto the belief that if things got really bad, that Sam would be there for him after all -- and then thought about or even tried tipping off Sam that things *had* gotten really bad, hoping that Sam *would* put their issues aside and be there for him? Dean himself had put his issues aside to be there for Sam when Sam was addicted to blood, and for John when John was giving radio silence and trying very hard to die for their "mission," so I think it makes sense that Dean would wonder if Sam would or that he would even want Sam to do the same for him when he was struggling. I think that's simultaneously tragic and frustrating given the specific circumstances, but I don't think it's an egregious accusation. Nor do I think it's furthering the stigmatization of mental illness, honestly.

 

I don't think he was especially interested in redeeming himself, I don't think that at that point (definitely when Sam said that he didn't feel he could trust him anymore) he even thought it was possible. He told Sam he was poison and was going to burn, and then he got the MoC from a demon to make absolutely sure he would. He had been saying for *years* that there was nothing left for him but to kill until he got killed. I think that he thought he was damned already (and still thinks that), so he might as well do some dirty work so nobody else had to and just run out the last of his clock. He was trying to do as much good as he could before the end (and imo that's what he still wants to do), but I don't think he thought it would redeem him, I think he was/is just doing it for its own sake. Saving people and feeling like he's doing some good in the world just genuinely matters to him, I think.

 

Some of why it hit Dean so hard, I think, when Sam said that Dean had done more harm than good and that Sam wouldn't do everything he could to save him, was because, in the context of Dean thinking he was damned already, that made it sound like Sam saying that he thought Dean deserved to go to Hell and that he would just let him rot down there. Though like I said earlier, I don't think that's at all what Sam actually thought or meant.

 

I guess to me, it's like the only thing Dean could have done to have it not be construed as selfish and manipulative on Dean's part was to agree with Sam that he was wrong, that he would never save Sam in the same way again. And it doesn't seem to allow for any of Dean's perspective, feelings and emotional devastation at knowing that his ONE decision to save Sam resulted in betraying Sam and Kevin's murder.  And it seems like no matter what Dean would do, he cannot be redeemed.

 

What I think would have been good is if Dean had taken better care of himself, or at least not actively tried to destroy himself. If he hadn't buddied up with Crowley, or taken the MoC, or even decided that he had to be the one to kill Abaddon considering that even Cain was saying he didn't want to do it because he'd risk losing himself in the process (and Cain was already a demon!). I don't think that any of that was a grand manipulation or done out of selfishness. I think the most basic responsibility that everyone has is to try to look after himself (because otherwise who will?), though, and I think that Dean stopped looking after (or looking out for) himself. I don't think it was *just* that he wasn't capable of better, I think he really gave up even trying, because the stuff he was doing was just so obviously self destructive. I mean Crowley? Really?! I think that was selfish like Sam keeping things up with the demon blood was selfish back in S4, and like John obsessing over sacrificing everything (including himself) for "the mission" was selfish in S1.

[Demented Daisy]

I was responding to the "compelled" bit -- the implication that if Sam didn't have to help Dean, he wouldn't.  Which I consider cold and calculating.

 

But mileage varies.

[rue721]

I was responding to the "compelled" bit -- the implication that if Sam didn't have to help Dean, he wouldn't.  Which I consider cold and calculating.

 

But mileage varies.

 

What would Sam even be calculating if there's no choice?

 

I'm not understanding the implication you're seeing that if Sam didn't have to help Dean, he wouldn't. How could Sam even possibly consider it an actual option to just sit by while his brother goes to Hell, becomes a demon, etc? His only actual option is to help, he can't just let that happen to Dean and not even try to help.

Edited February 23, 2015 by rue721

[Demented Daisy]

There's a choice.  There's always a choice.  He could have let Castiel or anyone else deal with it.  He could have walked away.

 

Is that a valid choice in his mind?  No, of course not, because he loves his brother.  But it's a choice he made.

[rue721]

There's a choice.  There's always a choice.  He could have let Castiel or anyone else deal with it.  He could have walked away.

 

Is that a valid choice in his mind?  No, of course not, because he loves his brother.  But it's a choice he made.

 

If there's only one valid option, then doesn't mean there *isn't* a choice? Doesn't he *have* to take the one valid option? Theoretically  anything could happen, but I assume that Sam would dismiss out of hand the ostensible option of just abandoning Dean when he's in serious danger, and that he and Dean both would know that Sam would dismiss that out of hand.

 

I guess the crux of it is that I'm not understanding why it would be better or more loving for Sam to be perpetually choosing not to walk away, rather than them both *knowing* that Sam wouldn't ever just walk away like that (again)? I thought they were cradle to grave! Aren't they? It seems much colder to me for Sam to be choosing to help Dean atm with them both knowing that he could also choose to just walk away some other time. Or for Dean to be thinking that Sam could just decide to abandon him but happened to be choosing to help him out atm.

 

Also, how can one of them be OK while knowing the other isn't OK? I mean, if Sam knows that Dean is in trouble or in pain, how would he not by in trouble or in pain himself? Or vice versa?

[DittyDotDot]

I think that what seems to be the misunderstanding here is...

• It sounds to some like you're saying Sam is only sticking by his brother because he's forced to. Not because he loves him and doesn't want to see him in trouble, but because he has no other option.
• However, I think what you're trying to say is there actually is a choice, but to Sam walking away isn't a valid option because he loves his brother and doesn't want to see him in trouble.

 

Does that help?

[rue721]

I think that what seems to be the misunderstanding here is...

• It sounds to some like you're saying Sam is only sticking by his brother because he's forced to. Not because he loves him and doesn't want to see him in trouble, but because he has no other option.
• However, I think what you're trying to say is there actually is a choice, but to Sam walking away isn't a valid option because he loves his brother and doesn't want to see him in trouble.

 

Does that help?

 

Ah OK. Thanks. Yes, I mean the second. Of course it's because he loves him. Imo:

 

Sam doesn't want to see Dean in trouble, so if he knows that Dean needs his help, he'll help him. Dean doesn't want to see Sam in trouble, so if he can even possibly swing it, he'll try to pretend there *is* no trouble and keep Sam away from the fray. I always think of Home, when Dean slipped off to ask the voicemail on his dad's burner phone for help, rather than just letting the "everything's fine, no worries" act drop in front of Sam. But Dean still does that, to Sam's chagrin. Even when he was juiced out of his mind on the First Blade, iIrc, Dean kept Sam out of the Abaddon fight by knocking him out.

 

It seems like it goes against every fiber of Dean's being to flat out ask Sam to help him -- imo, because the last thing that Dean wants to do is to drag Sam into a mess. Because he loves him. LOVES him. LOOOOVES him. The only time I remember him telling Sam he needs help, and asking Sam outright for it, is in the pilot -- though maybe there have been other times? As a general rule imo the closest that Dean can bring himself to asking Sam for help is something like, finding himself in Sam's vicinity while clearly needing help and yet explicitly telling Sam not to help him (and meaning it. but also clearly needing help and knowing that, too). I get why Sam finds that frustrating, but you'd also think he'd be used to it by now. That's why I don't get Sam's "let's talk about things!" Dean isn't going to talk about things -- not bad things, not with Sam! He's not ever going to bring Sam into anything bad if he can help it. And if he can't help it, he's still going to fight every inch of it, imo, which in practice will probably mean that he brings Sam into whatever the trouble is painfully, in drips-and-drabs, by way of some indirect, screwed up process. Well anyway.

 

I just can't imagine that Sam would be able to sit there blowing on his nails knowing that Dean needs his help. I mean, yes, I guess he would literally have the ability to, it's not like there's a gun at his back. But that would be hell for him, to have to sit idly by while *knowing* Dean needs him, wouldn't it? Ultimately, he's always going to be on Dean's side. If they aren't ride or die, I don't know who is. Isn't that what they're talking about when they talk about being brothers, family, etc?

 

Dean *must* realize that if Sam knows he needs his help that Sam will throw himself into the fray in a heartbeat, because otherwise, why would Dean always try to make Sam believe that there's less trouble than there is (and ideally, no trouble at all)?

 

But that's part of why I just totally blew off The Purge thing. Yeah right Sam, you're going to stand on ~principle~ while your brother is murdered or dragged off to Hell? Nope, not going to /happen. That Dean would even consider that that would happen and wasn't *at worst* just grandstanding on Sam's part blows my mind. Though Dean was messed up, who knows what was going on in his head. I guess a Perfect Storm of self-loathing or something. Maybe Bobby should have been in the room during that fight, at least he would have rolled his eyes and called bullshit when Sam tried to get the last word and then make his ~grand exit~ while Dean was still speechless, and that probably would have headed a truckload of melodrama off at the pass. OF COURSE the reality is that Sam isn't just going to blow off Dean's pain/death/damnation and be like, "Meh. My brother is now suffering eternal torment, but at least I've still got my principles!"

 

When has Sam *ever* actually stood on principle anyway? Last time Dean went to Hell, Sam tried to up his game by drinking demon blood, and unlike with Yellow Eyes, he even started sleeping with his supplier. This time when Dean became a demon, Sam scammed some schmuck into summoning a Crossroads Demon. Sam's nothing if not balls to the wall. He is probably the least likely person to decide not to do something because it's against the rules -- his rules or anyone else's.

[DittyDotDot]

Sam doesn't want to see Dean in trouble, so if he knows that Dean needs his help, he'll help him. Dean doesn't want to see Sam in trouble, so if he can even possibly swing it, he'll try to pretend there *is* no trouble and keep Sam away from the fray. I always think of Home, when Dean slipped off to ask the voicemail on his dad's burner phone for help, rather than just letting the "everything's fine, no worries" act drop in front of Sam. But Dean still does that, to Sam's chagrin. Even when he was juiced out of his mind on the First Blade, iIrc, Dean kept Sam out of the Abaddon fight by knocking him out.

 

I think the main reason Dean kept Sam out of the room with Abaddon was so Sam couldn't be used against him. Yes, of course he doesn't want Sam to get hurt, but mostly I think he didn't want the distraction or have something Abaddon could use as leverage over Dean. Its the same thing John was doing back in S1 and it was also the main reason he didn't want Sam or Cass in the room when he met up with Cain. The difference with Cain was, he didn't use subterfuge and lying to keep Sam and Cass out. This is what I mean by seeing John behavior in Dean last season when he was under the influence of the Mark and First Blade, but this season he's been more in control and more communicative about what's happening with him.

 

It seems like it goes against every fiber of Dean's being to flat out ask Sam to help him -- imo, because the last thing that Dean wants to do is to drag Sam into a mess.

 

I think Dean doesn't like to ask anyone for help, not just Sam. I think it's harder with Sam because he feels like he's supposed to take care of Sam not Sam take care of him. It's a parent thing, IMO. He did kinda ask for Sam's help in S3, but I agree, the Pilot is the only other time I can recall that happening. But, I think it has to be something big for him to ask anyone for help. I think he sees needing help as a sign of weakness. This season he's had to not only ask both Sam and Cass for help, but also had to step back from that usual leadership role, too.

[Aeryn13]

 

If there's only one valid option, then doesn't mean there *isn't* a choice?

 

Fundamentally, no, I`d say. Even if in your own mind, you can only ever choose one option because the other is unthinkeable and you would never in a million years take door number 2, it`s still 100 % a choice to me. I don`t believe in "I had no choice but to do that". There are very, very bad choices, there are "well, what kind of choice is that really" choices but not a single one of them is not ultimately a true choice for me in how I see the concept. Right now I can`t even imagine a scenario where I would agree that it isn`t a choice.

 

 

I think the main reason Dean kept Sam out of the room with Abaddon was so Sam couldn't be used against him.

 

I agree. Just with Cain in the recent episode where he spelled it out, it was as much a strategic decision as done for protection. The show just loves to conflates those two issues and paint Dean as overly controlling or not willing to accept help. Whereas in certain scenarios, noone can provide actual help like it was with facing Abaddon - well, presumably, Cas could have helped against her - or it was with Cain - where we saw that even an angel could only provide blow-drying help.   .

 

 

This season he's had to not only ask both Sam and Cass for help, but also had to step back from that usual leadership role, too.

  

Not so sure on that. He might have stepped back because he now has enough on his plate just focusing on himself and getting the MOC under control but I don`t see anyone stepping up to the plate.

 

Other than him being cured as a demon (and I don`t think that counts in the above scenario), we had a few bits of the most non-vigilante wathcing over someone ever. Oh, gee, Dean stayed in the house, think someone bad will happen? Oh gee, lets send Dean to talk to the teenager who hates him now. Oh gee, lets have Dean deal with Dark!Charlie, what could go wrong? And predictably, stuff did go wrong to various degrees and Dean himself was able to handle that with various degrees of success but the most the peanut gallery could provide was hand-wringing after the fact and a speech or two. 

 

When Dean was in that support position, he was never that la-di-da about the danger. Which I think is because he had more experience with that role and maybe a bit more confidence in that aspect of leadership, if you will. Whereas the others hem and haw more. Also, I do believe the others still look upon Dean with certain higher expectations. "Of course, you can beat this thing" and all. 

 

He admitted vulnerablity as much as he could, I think. Not to mention, in his place, I`d be wary, too, with doing so. Who knows what he`s gonna hear in the next out-of-control or out-of-anger-speech directed at him then? It has been a couple of times now, I would stop painting targets on my back too.   

Edited February 24, 2015 by Aeryn13

[SueB]

I've kept this tab open since SUNDAY because I've been too busy to have a good sit and read.  Thankfully I finally got to do that today.

 

1) Such an excellent set of ideas.  While it may seem impossible, I swear I think I understand and actually enjoys everyone's POV on this.  They may read differently but I swear, it seems like nuanced discussions that all point to Sam and Dean being totally messed up emotionally and yet totally loving of each other (in a brotherly way) no matter how pissed or freaked they may be.

 

2) My favorite quote about choice comes to mind:

 

“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”
― Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning

I think in S9 (aka The Empire Strikes Back), when everything was going to shit, the worst part was that the brothers were not emotionally united. In S10, I think they are exercising "the last of the human freedoms".  They are choosing their attitudes and fighting TOGETHER.  They are emotionally united.  Dean has never been so open and honest with Sam.  He's not hiding his pain or thoughts (except for the end of the last episode when Cain gave him a whopper of a prediction). He's not protecting Sam from where he is at.  And Sam is, IMO, doing a masterful job at reading Dean and providing the right kind of support.  Sam thinks Dean's new "just live with it" is a bullshit plan but he knows Dean needs to live that way for now .... so he supports that while still looking for solutions.  I like how they are playing to Sam's strengths in terms of compassion and insight.  And I like that Dean is accepting help openly.  It's such character growth.  

Bottom Line: This series is an opus on Free Will. One of the major victories in S10 thus far has been that despite all the bad options, how they are choosing to view the situation and how they are working as a team has been a success.

[rue721]

I think the main reason Dean kept Sam out of the room with Abaddon was so Sam couldn't be used against him. Yes, of course he doesn't want Sam to get hurt, but mostly I think he didn't want the distraction or have something Abaddon could use as leverage over Dean. Its the same thing John was doing back in S1 and it was also the main reason he didn't want Sam or Cass in the room when he met up with Cain.

 

To me, this is same difference. I agree that Dean knew that if Sam were in the fight, he would prioritize protecting him over killing Abaddon, and since he was going in there specifically to kill her and was the one supposed to strike the killing blow, playing defense like that would probably undermine his ability to actually do his job on offense.

 

But I also don't really see a huge distinction between worrying about protecting Sam and keeping him out of the fray because of it, and worrying about being too worried about protecting Sam and keeping him out of the fray because of that. I mean, there *is* a distinction there, but it isn't one that's very meaningful to me, personally. YMMV.

 

I agree that it's the same thing as what was going on with John not wanting Sam and Dean around when he was zeroing in on (and confronting) Yellow Eyes.

 

I think Dean doesn't like to ask anyone for help, not just Sam. I think it's harder with Sam because he feels like he's supposed to take care of Sam not Sam take care of him. It's a parent thing, IMO. He did kinda ask for Sam's help in S3, but I agree, the Pilot is the only other time I can recall that happening. But, I think it has to be something big for him to ask anyone for help. I think he sees needing help as a sign of weakness. This season he's had to not only ask both Sam and Cass for help, but also had to step back from that usual leadership role, too.

 

Aside from the macho tough guy stuff that should probably be expected from anyone who wears that much flannel, I don't think that Dean acts like asking for help is a sign of weakness. He never seems to think less of anyone else for asking for it, as far as I remember.

 

I think he mostly just cares about getting the job done. He doesn't seem to me to really get judgmental about whether someone can cover a given task alone or if he needs some help with it. I think that he genuinely likes fixing things/solving problems/helping people, and finds it fulfilling, and he's thinking more along the lines about how he can do that, not so much about how the solution might look like to anyone else or about anybody's ego, etc.

 

He actually seems to me to like being on the receiving end of getting help, too. He seemed like he really appreciated Bobby looking out for him, John looking out for him, etc. He never seemed to worry about being too demanding with Kevin or Cas, etc. He's even fine with regular people helping out if they want to, though he's less willing to get kids involved now (normal change of perception since he's gotten older imo). I haven't felt that not getting help is a point of pride for him or like it makes him feel good to get something done alone/without help. I don't think that he feels like he has anything to prove, in that sense.

 

I think that he feels *guilty* asking for help. I think he thinks that it's an imposition and not right/fair for him to ask someone else to do (what he perceives to be) his job. He's always seemed to me to have been pretty clear on what he thinks his job/duty is, and that he *has* to do it, and to feel terrible if he fails to do it. Imo he doesn't even care that much *why* he "failed" to do it at any given time, just whether he did. I think that his reluctance to ask for help doesn't come from ego and from not wanting to look weak, imo it comes from him not wanting to let anyone down by giving up on doing his job. 

 

Also, I think that he doesn't know how or even when to ask for help, even if he *does* want it.

I think that it literally doesn't occur to him a lot of the time that asking for help is an option. That there's even help out there to *get.* Even when he *knows* he's in over his head and it's freaking him out, I think it's *still* not really occurring to him that asking for help is an actual option (that it's OK for him to ask for it, and also that someone else will be willing/able to give it). YMMV, and I think this is where a lot of the miscommunication has sprung from earlier. To go way, way back to Long Distance Call -- imo, Dean really desperately *wanted* help, because he was (justifiably!) terrified of soon being killed and sent to Hell, but he didn't know how to ask for it (he didn't know who to ask, or when to ask, or what to ask for...). When "John" called and offered help -- Dean was *all* over that. He was not *at all* embarrassed or proud about accepting that help, he wanted it desperately, imo. He wanted it bad enough that when it got taken away, he was crushed and finally came clean to Sam that yeah, he felt like the prospect of getting sent to Hell forever was too much for him to handle.

 

But imo he would never have actually asked for help directly. Eager as he was to talk to "John" once "John" was calling him and offering help, imo he would never have tried to contact John himself. In those calls with "John," Dean *still* was saying he was sorry for failing, etc, and it was "John" who was saying that he would never have wanted all this terrible stuff to happen to Dean and that he'd try to help him out of it. Dean was *still* apologizing for letting him down rather than asking for help, though he also clearly needed/wanted/hoped for help.

 

Imo that's similar to how he seemed to be feeling about the MoC, and even before that, what he seemed to be feeling when he was losing Sam (because of the Trials, and then because Sam was possessed by Gadreel, and then because Sam being distant because of feeling betrayed). Imo Dean felt completely in over his head and like he *needed* help, but didn't know how to ask for it or who to ask for it from, so he figured that he had to play the odds that no help was going to come, and just tried to do his best. If Sam had offered to help him? I think that Dean would have been really touched by that and would have leapt at the offer, just like he did even the offer from "John" back when he was worried about going to Hell in S3. I don't think that he would have been too proud for it or even embarrassed, I think he would have been happy that Sam was willing to help him and would have tried his best to put his trust in Sam.

 

I think that's what he's actually trying to do right now, without it ever being made explicit between them that that's what's happening. Ever since Sam saved/cured him as a demon, imo Dean's been sure that Sam will look out for him, and has *tried* to put his trust in Sam, and has gotten better and better at actually doing that (including being more and more honest with Sam about there being problems/what those problems are). But I think that Sam doesn't really know what to do to help him (which is fair enough, I mean, what can Sam really do atm?). More important, though, I feel like Sam is not taking it seriously enough when Dean says or acts like he can't handle something or that it's an emergency. I think Sam has a lot of faith in Dean, more than Dean has in himself at this point imo, and that that's the place where that relative nonchalance on Sam's part is coming from. Which is sweet/loving in its own way. But I figure that since Dean tries so hard to downplay problems, if even Dean is willing to say there *is* one and that he can't actually solve it on his own, Sam should assume that the scope and urgency of the problem is actually about x10000 larger than what it sounds like when Dean describes it to him.

 

And just personally, I've always loved it when Dean has told Sam that as long as he's around, nothing bad will happen to him, he'll always be there for him, etc. So I wish that Sam would say that to Dean. I think they both know at this point that that's the case. I don't think that either of them is worried that Sam will just blow off Dean or anything like that. So it's maybe redundant or unnecessary for Sam to make it explicit like that. But imo it would still be great if Sam just straight up *said it.* YMMV, I know it's kind of neurotic, but I think it's a big deal to actually say the words. Sort of like how, realistically, it's more important for someone to act like he loves you than for him to say he does -- but him saying the words still means a lot, too. That's sort of what I'm waiting for, I guess, for Sam to actually *say it.*

[AwesomO4000]

Aside from the macho tough guy stuff that should probably be expected from anyone who wears that much flannel, I don't think that Dean acts like asking for help is a sign of weakness. He never seems to think less of anyone else for asking for it, as far as I remember.

 

I think he mostly just cares about getting the job done. He doesn't seem to me to really get judgmental about whether someone can cover a given task alone or if he needs some help with it. I think that he genuinely likes fixing things/solving problems/helping people, and finds it fulfilling, and he's thinking more along the lines about how he can do that, not so much about how the solution might look like to anyone else or about anybody's ego, etc.

 

I don't know. I have mixed feelings about this, because I kind of think that at least deep down, he does. When the shapeshifter was downloading his thoughts, he seemed to imply that Dean resented having to stay and help Dad. That he maybe had aspirations to go to college himself. And demon Dean certainly seemed to be saying that he resented having to pull Sam's "sorry ass" out of the fire all the time. Now whether which if any of these things also apply to Dean might be debatable, but in my opinion, there is at least doubt with me teetering towards yes.

 

I agree with you about getting the job done, but in some respects this I think also goes towards Dean being a little bit of a control freak.

 

 

He actually seems to me to like being on the receiving end of getting help, too. He seemed like he really appreciated Bobby looking out for him, John looking out for him, etc. He never seemed to worry about being too demanding with Kevin or Cas, etc. He's even fine with regular people helping out if they want to, though he's less willing to get kids involved now (normal change of perception since he's gotten older imo). I haven't felt that not getting help is a point of pride for him or like it makes him feel good to get something done alone/without help. I don't think that he feels like he has anything to prove, in that sense.

 

I think that he feels *guilty* asking for help. I think he thinks that it's an imposition and not right/fair for him to ask someone else to do (what he perceives to be) his job. He's always seemed to me to have been pretty clear on what he thinks his job/duty is, and that he *has* to do it, and to feel terrible if he fails to do it.

 

 

I agree Dean feels terrible if he fails, but I also think that part of his wanting to take on things himself is that there are very few people he trusts can do it. Not that he isn't right about that much of the time, but I still think he pretty much feels like if he doesn't do it all the time, it isn't going to be done "right."

 

Also, I think that he doesn't know how or even when to ask for help, even if he *does* want it.

 

I think that it literally doesn't occur to him a lot of the time that asking for help is an option. That there's even help out there to *get.* Even when he *knows* he's in over his head and it's freaking him out, I think it's *still* not really occurring to him that asking for help is an actual option (that it's OK for him to ask for it, and also that someone else will be willing/able to give it).

 

 

Again I don't entirely agree, and again some of this goes to "results." In the case of season 9, Dean knew exactly where he could ask for help. There were actually quite a few options: Sam, Castiel, Kevin. However asking for help meant that there would be variables that he could not control: Would Kevin or Castiel tell Sam? Would Sam reject Gadreel? In season 2, Dean very much could have asked Sam for help. Sam was begging for Dean to let him help, but Dean told Gordon that he couldn't let Sam see him that way, and I think part of that was that if he talked with Sam, he might spill John's directive and he wouldn't be able to control how Sam reacted. The other part was to protect Sam? Or he literally didn't want Sam to see him like that? And again in season 5, Dean didn't want to ask for help, in my opinion, because he didn't trust anyone - Sam, Castiel, or Bobby - to agree with him, and he didn't want to have to discuss the options with anyone. He'd rather not ask for help so he could do things his way.

 

I also think that it's a little bit that when he does ask for help, it usually means that he has little control over the situation anyway, so he might as well now ask for help. Example: season 3 and now.

 

Now I'm not saying that Dean always does this, but I do tend to see a pattern that the more variables there are that Dean can't control as a consequence of asking for help, the less likely it is that he'll ask.

 

Imo that's similar to how he seemed to be feeling about the MoC, and even before that, what he seemed to be feeling when he was losing Sam (because of the Trials, and then because Sam was possessed by Gadreel, and then because Sam being distant because of feeling betrayed). Imo Dean felt completely in over his head and like he *needed* help, but didn't know how to ask for it or who to ask for it from, so he figured that he had to play the odds that no help was going to come, and just tried to do his best.

 

He had choices. There was both Kevin and Castiel, either who might have been helpful. Once he took on the mark of Cain, the story was different, and it didn't matter anymore. There were no more variables in question, because Sam was already saved, and Dean already had the mark.

 

If Sam had offered to help him? I think that Dean would have been really touched by that and would have leapt at the offer, just like he did even the offer from "John" back when he was worried about going to Hell in S3. I don't think that he would have been too proud for it or even embarrassed, I think he would have been happy that Sam was willing to help him and would have tried his best to put his trust in Sam.

 

How was Sam going to help him? Once Dean took on the mark, there was little to nothing Sam could have done at that point. Before that Sam had almost literally one minute after finding out about Gadreel to offer help, and he even did in his own way. It was Dean's idea that he leave, spouting how he was poison. Even as fresh as his anger was, Sam told Dean that that wasn't the problem. The next episode, Dean took the mark.

 

And just personally, I've always loved it when Dean has told Sam that as long as he's around, nothing bad will happen to him, he'll always be there for him, etc. So I wish that Sam would say that to Dean. I think they both know at this point that that's the case. I don't think that either of them is worried that Sam will just blow off Dean or anything like that. So it's maybe redundant or unnecessary for Sam to make it explicit like that. But imo it would still be great if Sam just straight up *said it.* YMMV, I know it's kind of neurotic, but I think it's a big deal to actually say the words. Sort of like how, realistically, it's more important for someone to act like he loves you than for him to say he does -- but him saying the words still means a lot, too. That's sort of what I'm waiting for, I guess, for Sam to actually *say it.*

 

I look at this differently. If Sam told Dean everything was going to be alright, they'd both know it was a lie. Too much has happened since that episode. Even Dean couldn't keep to that promise, so while it was a nice sentiment, in the end, it didn't change that Dean couldn't always keep Sam safe. Sam disappeared only 100 feet or so away when Azazel took him, almost literally before Dean's eyes.

 

So it might be just a matter of difference, but when Sam says things like "for what it's worth, I've got your back" as he did in "Mannequin 3," to me, this is Sam's version of "as long as I'm around..." To me, that's pretty darn close to "I'll always be there for you." And when Sam thinks Dean can do something like make the right decision (as in "Point of No Return") or work towards staving off the affects of the mark, as you said, this is faith he's showing in Dean. And since what Sam often wants from Dean is Dean's trust and faith in him (Sam), to me that Sam gives this to Dean, shows how much he thinks of Dean.

 

So I'm not sure what Sam can do at this point except to keep encouraging Dean, and continue looking for an answer. Sam showing faith in Dean is his version of  taking Jake's advice from "All Hell..., pt 1: "it doesn't matter if you believe it as long as they believe it." Dean's not going to believe Sam saying that everything is going to be alright. He's much more likely to believe that Sam has faith in him, and knowing that, maybe, just maybe, Dean might feel that some of that faith might rub off on him (Dean).

Edited March 1, 2015 by AwesomO4000