Caitlyn Jenner: Call Me Caitlyn

[Kromm]

Brody Jenner gets along better with Caitlyn than Bruce

 

Caitlyn is now getting the attention she craved now that she's not Bruce anymore.

It's not the fault of either of these posters, but look at the way we're happy to talk about this situation. Brody "gets along better with Caitlyn than Bruce". "Caitlyn is now getting the attention she craved now that she's not Bruce anymore."

Again, the default seems to be to talk about them like they're two different people.

There really are no excuses for the people who mess the pronouns up (because as I've said elsewhere I think it's often INTENTIONAL). But for the few where it's not intentional, I suppose I have a little bit of sympathy, because it's occurred to me they're getting massive mixed messages delivered to them when even in casual speech what's hanging out there for all to see is all this confusion about referring to people who have simply changed their names and genders as if they're different people. The idea that the name and gender changed but not the person seems to fall by the wayside pretty easily, even simply from one post to another.

Does Brody really get along better with Caitlyn now than he did when Cait's name was Bruce and she acted like a man? Well that's nice, but it's because their behaviors towards each other have been mutually adjusted, not because Cait is some kind of new player who's been introduced.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Kromm

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

 

But for the few where it's not intentional, I suppose I have a little bit of sympathy, because it's occurred to me they're getting massive mixed messages delivered to them when even in casual speech

I can only speak for myself but mine was certainly unintentional. It's pretty difficult to talk about someone who identified as a "he" and now identifies as a "she" and not sound like it's two different people. It's not like Bruce is still being called Bruce but identifies as a woman.  He's changed physically (although not completely) and outwardly but not necessarily totally changed emotionally (although this remains to be seen in the future). Sounds like a pretty gray area right now. 

[mmk1987]

I think it is pretty extreme for someone to change their entire gender just to get attention. So I don't believe that is why Caitlyn transitioned. Seems pretty ridiculous. Is she enjoying the attention though? Sure she probably is.

[jonesingjay]

I think it is pretty extreme for someone to change their entire gender just to get attention. So I don't believe that is why Caitlyn transitioned. Seems pretty ridiculous. Is she enjoying the attention though? Sure she probably is.

 

I've never agreed with the opinion that Caitlyn did this for attention. I believe that she's transgender, and is finally living the life she wants, which is fantastic. She's definitely enjoying her moment in the sun, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I do hope that she follows through with her comments on wanting to be involved with and help the transgender community. I'm enjoying all of the press coverage of her.

[Kromm]

I've never agreed with the opinion that Caitlyn did this for attention. I believe that she's transgender, and is finally living the life she wants, which is fantastic. She's definitely enjoying her moment in the sun, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I do hope that she follows through with her comments on wanting to be involved with and help the transgender community. I'm enjoying all of the press coverage of her.

There's no way Bruce Jenner did this just to get attention. Becoming Caitlyn was real. That doesn't mean all of the rest of what we've seen around this is though.

Caitlyn is the same person, and so that doesn't mean a better one necessarily. Maybe in increment, yes, being happier, but it's also possible that the extra attention may be bringing out bad qualities too.

[jonesingjay]

There's no way Bruce Jenner did this just to get attention. Becoming Caitlyn was real. That doesn't mean all of the rest of what we've seen around this is though.

Caitlyn is the same person, and so that doesn't mean a better one necessarily. Maybe in increment, yes, being happier, but it's also possible that the extra attention may be bringing out bad qualities too.

 

Yup, I don't think Caitlyn did it for attention. I think she's having a fabulous time, doing as she pleases. I can't say what's real and what isn't as I've never followed her or the Kardashians closely. 

 

I didn't mention whether or not she's a changed person, that I don't know. 

[Artsda]

She has a blog out.

 

http://www.people.com/article/caitlyn-jenner-whosay-blog-conversations-with-caitlyn-journey-begins

 

New promo with Kim telling Caitlyn that Kris has the same dress that she likes. lol

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/caitlyn-jenner-reveals-same-style-as-kris-jenner-in-i-am-cait-promo-201567

 

And Brody's changing his tune on appearing on Caitlyn's show. Now he says he may do it. I guess depends on the promotion he needs.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/07/07/brody-jenner-caitlyn-bruce-jenner-today-show

Edited July 7, 2015 by Artsda

[Kromm]

Okay, I don't know where I stand on this one.

 

In the current newscycle (because Caitlyn is basically in EVERY current newscycle back to back to back) are stories reading like this:

 

Caitlyn Jenner's 1984 Olympic Torch Could Fetch $20,000 at Auction

 

Keeping in mind the point of view I know I personally have espoused (that they're the same person other than the name), I don't know how I feel about referring to events in 1984 and attributing the name "Caitlyn" to them. I'm totally flummoxed on if it's more important to reinforce the idea that they're the same person by using the same name, or if it's more important to keep events in the context that makes more sense for the time (so, "Bruce" would apply there).

 

I wonder if Strunk & White's The Elements of Style has been updated to address this... er.... tough journalistic situation.  Okay, I'm sure it hasn't.  Someone needs to though!

Surely at some point Chaz/Chastity Bono (someone else widely in the media on both sides of his transition) must have done something that required a standard being set.

Speaking of Chaz Bono, he's got to have a real "what am I, Chopped Liver?" feeling about all of this Caitlyn Jenner media obsession.

[GaT]

Personally, I think it was Bruce Jenner who did all the Olympic stuff, not Caitlyn Jenner. I'm against changing the records.

[Kromm]

Well keep in mind that Bruce didn't participate in the 1984 Olympics. This is strictly for a torch he ran with through Lake Tahoe. So it's not even a matter of changing record books, but rather how media refers to an event very noticeably done by a male Bruce Jenner.

[Artsda]

I agree, I look at it like that was male Bruce who carried the torch back then just like the kids view Bruce as then and Caitlyn as now. 

Edited July 7, 2015 by Artsda

[GaT]

Well keep in mind that Bruce didn't participate in the 1984 Olympics. This is strictly for a torch he ran with through Lake Tahoe. So it's not even a matter of changing record books, but rather how media refers to an event very noticeably done by a male Bruce Jenner.

True, but a male Bruce jenner only got to run with the torch because of the gold medals he won. Caitlyn Jenner couldn't have even competed in his event because it was for men only.

[Aw my lahgs]

It can be confusing, because when Caitlyn announced to the world that she was a female, she still wanted to be referred to as Bruce and him... Now for Caitlyn that magazine cover may have been the official kick off of her become another Kardashian, for others it may still be confusing. It's easy to mix it up.

[iwasish]

True, but a male Bruce jenner only got to run with the torch because of the gold medals he won. Caitlyn Jenner couldn't have even competed in his event because it was for men only.

Didn't the Olympic committee say they would change the record books to reflect the change in name if Caitlyn wanted them to? That I do not agree with. They are just trying to be PC.

[GaT]

I think they said they would think about it, I don't know if it's definite.

[iwasish]

I think they said they would think about it, I don't know if it's definite.

Most likely they'd gauge public opinion and go with the PC decision.

[jonesingjay]

If they changed the records to show Caitlyn Jenner won the decathlon I'd get a kick out of it. 

[HumblePi]

I'm so sick and tired of all this Caitlyn Jenner publicity. Okay so he became a she, his lifelong dream. Done deal. The end.  Oh what? Could Caitlyn now be unabashedly cashing in on her transgender fame?  Nah, she wouldn't do that, would she? After all, she wants to be an example for all transgender people of the world and encourage them to be what they want to be, right? Oh wait, yes there is that multi-million dollar paycheck she's going to get from E for her new series 'I Am Cait'. And oh yes there's that ESPY (Excellence in Sports Performance Yearly) Arthur Ashe Courage Award being presented to her. Wait kids, there's more. The 'journey' for Caitlyn Jenner appears to be paved in nothing less than 24 carat gold. There's the television interviews, the magazine covers, the books that are yet to come, and more.

 

There comes a point when I stop giving Bruce Jenner kudos for his transgender transition to Caitlyn and thereby achieving what he longed for since he first stepped into a pair of his sister's high-heeled shoes, after a while it begins to smack of commercialism, crass exploitation and plain old gold-digging. I have to agree with the remarks made by Bob Costas regarding his receiving the Arthur Ashe Courage Award. It's ESPN's way to plump up the viewing audience, not because of the validity but because of the 'gawker' value and TV ratings.

 

Bruce Jenner was squarely to blame for an accident that killed a woman in Malibu and he went totally underground about it, he disappeared and let all the publicity just die down and go away. But when it came to him trans-gendering to Caitlyn he broke Twitter with the news. There are so many outstanding courageous athletes that are more deserving than Caitlyn Jenner.  One athlete that I would give that award to is Lauren Hill who touched the nation with her desire to play for her college basketball team, even as she battled an inoperable brain tumor. Her battle ended April 10 at age 19, but she saw the end of her life as the beginning of something bigger. Hill would've been my choice. She used the final months of her life to raise awareness and money for cancer.

Through 'The Cure Starts Now', she helped raise $1.5 million. The only thing Caitlyn Jenner has done so far has all been self-serving and for monetary gain, publicity and fame.

[jonesingjay]

Another 'I Am Cait' promo. I'm really looking forward to this series, and the new forum for it. I'm especially curious about the relationship she has with her mother, and siblings (If any of Caitlyn's siblings are on it.). 

[millennium]

Speaking of Chaz Bono, he's got to have a real "what am I, Chopped Liver?" feeling about all of this Caitlyn Jenner media obsession.

 

Or the many others who pioneered this movement and have never received even a moment's attention from the mainstream media.   I wonder how they feel watching the famewhore at work.

[millennium]

I'm so sick and tired of all this Caitlyn Jenner publicity. Okay so he became a she, his lifelong dream. Done deal. The end.  Oh what? Could Caitlyn now be unabashedly cashing in on her transgender fame?  Nah, she wouldn't do that, would she? After all, she wants to be an example for all transgender people of the world and encourage them to be what they want to be, right? Oh wait, yes there is that multi-million dollar paycheck she's going to get from E for her new series 'I Am Cait'. And oh yes there's that ESPY (Excellence in Sports Performance Yearly) Arthur Ashe Courage Award being presented to her. Wait kids, there's more. The 'journey' for Caitlyn Jenner appears to be paved in nothing less than 24 carat gold. There's the television interviews, the magazine covers, the books that are yet to come, and more.

 

There comes a point when I stop giving Bruce Jenner kudos for his transgender transition to Caitlyn and thereby achieving what he longed for since he first stepped into a pair of his sister's high-heeled shoes, after a while it begins to smack of commercialism, crass exploitation and plain old gold-digging. I have to agree with the remarks made by Bob Costas regarding his receiving the Arthur Ashe Courage Award. It's ESPN's way to plump up the viewing audience, not because of the validity but because of the 'gawker' value and TV ratings.

 

Bruce Jenner was squarely to blame for an accident that killed a woman in Malibu and he went totally underground about it, he disappeared and let all the publicity just die down and go away. But when it came to him trans-gendering to Caitlyn he broke Twitter with the news. There are so many outstanding courageous athletes that are more deserving than Caitlyn Jenner.  One athlete that I would give that award to is Lauren Hill who touched the nation with her desire to play for her college basketball team, even as she battled an inoperable brain tumor. Her battle ended April 10 at age 19, but she saw the end of her life as the beginning of something bigger. Hill would've been my choice. She used the final months of her life to raise awareness and money for cancer.

Through 'The Cure Starts Now', she helped raise $1.5 million. The only thing Caitlyn Jenner has done so far has all been self-serving and for monetary gain, publicity and fame.

 

I don't believe the attention lavished on Jenner these days has much to do with society developing an understanding or acceptance about transgender people.   It's just today's version of what used to be called a sideshow, and Jenner's only too happy to step up on the stage and pocket the proceeds afterwards.   And why not?  Jenner's insulated from virtually all the hazards and obstacles facing most transgender people.   I still think mainstream society considers transgender people to be freaks and/or mentally ill, something to be pitied or laughed at; all Jenner's done is to put it in a neat package for them.   Now they can slake their morbid curiosity in primetime and in People magazine rather than browsing the backwaters of the internet.   Yup, Jenner has performed a real service -- but not for the transgender population of the world.

Edited July 9, 2015 by millennium

[ByTor]

Speaking of Chaz Bono, he's got to have a real "what am I, Chopped Liver?" feeling about all of this Caitlyn Jenner media obsession.

Or thrilled that he's being left alone to just live his life. Edited July 8, 2015 by ByTor

[iwasish]

Or thrilled that he's being left alone to just live his life.

And isn't that the goal ultimately? Just live life like everyone else?. Perhaps Caitlyn has been a famewhore like the Kardashians all along, just not in the right gender. now she can Twitter and Instagram and blog to her hearts content.

[DangerousMinds]

Eh, she's waited many decades for this and I'm with the attention so far, as she is a public figure associated with the Kartrashians. Better a focus on her than them. In a few months, the media will move on for the most part, IMHO.

[Kromm]

Or the many others who pioneered this movement and have never received even a moment's attention from the mainstream media.   I wonder how they feel watching the famewhore at work.

Certainly true, but I was trying to make an apples to apples comparison. Chastity Bono may not have been quite as big a star as Bruce Jenner, but she was a public figure nonetheless.  Not that Chaz went unreported, or uninterviewed, but the scale of it was SO different from Bruce to Caitlyn that it's ridiculous.  Chaz even went on Dancing With The Stars (and I think did badly) so it's not like he was trying to duck the limelight. The funny thing about Caitlyn's transition is you'd think the news would be filled with references to him as well, but if you search Google News for "Chaz Bono" you get like scant few current references.

 

Or thrilled that he's being left alone to just live his life.

I doubt that. Chaz is in showbiz (music and acting).

 

Hmm.  And also really active in the LGBT movement, since Chastity was lesbian before transitioning.  Maybe the public finds Caitlyn much less threatening, since she's about as politically active as well... a Kardashian.

[ByTor]

I doubt that. Chaz is in showbiz (music and acting).

Oh I understand that, my comment was more with regard to the gender change.

[Kromm]

Okay, I know Clint Eastwood is capable of being a real pig/sexist/right wing nut.  I know there's a pretty fairly based assumption that he's going to be wrong/insensitive.  But frankly him being edited out on this joke this story reports on seems like a total P.C. overreaction.  

 

Clint Eastwood’s Jenner Joke Cut From Spike’s Guys Choice Awards

 

Here's the joke:

 

 

According to Hollywood Life, the multiple Oscar winner compared (Dwayne) Johnson’s career change to those of “Jim Brown and Caitlyn Somebody.”

Now if that was truly the extent of the joke and there wasn't more to it?  Good lord. This is like fuel to the fire--censoring things that don't need to be is only going to give ammo to people who are looking for it.

[howmanywords]

Since Caitlyn joined social media on June 1st she has a total of 16 tweets and she only started blogging this week. She's not out everyday making sure she's photographed by paparazzi and she's not acting like the Kardashians posting selfies on Instagram so IMO she is living her life and isn't being a day to day attention whore.

Edited July 9, 2015 by howmanywords

[jonesingjay]

Since Caitlyn joined social media on June 1st she has a total of 16 tweets and she only started blogging this week. She's not out everyday making sure she's photographed by paparazzi and she's not acting like the Kardashians posting selfies on Instagram so IMO she is living her life and isn't being a day to day attention whore.

 

Yeah, I don't have an issue with her being out and about. I think she's just living her life, and since she's a public figure combined with the gender change she's going to be in the media. I agree with you. I wouldn't qualify her as a fame whore. Especially if it's in comparison to the Kardashians or anyone of their ilk.  

[millennium]

Since Caitlyn joined social media on June 1st she has a total of 16 tweets and she only started blogging this week. She's not out everyday making sure she's photographed by paparazzi and she's not acting like the Kardashians posting selfies on Instagram so IMO she is living her life and isn't being a day to day attention whore.

 

My Google News page is littered daily with photos and press releases about Jenner donning a "sexy animal print" while attending a Broadway show, or Jenner sobbing "I want my children to be proud of me" or how hot Jenner looks in the latest photo shoot for the upcoming series, or that Jenner has a blog now, or any of the other Jenner-related bullshit foisted upon the public every day.    And that's merely the headlines that I see -- God knows what's on the actual pages if you follow the links.

 

This is the same person who played coy with the paparazzi after every doctor's appointment during the "speculation" period -- but, as Humblepi noted, conveniently vanished during the aftermath of killing that woman in the car wreck, emerging only to villify her stepchildren, or when there was an assurance of positive transition coverage.

 

Personally, I think the most compelling evidence that Jenner's a famewhore is the acceptance of the ESPN courage award.   Jenner already won the greatest athletic honor known to mankind, and enjoyed a lifetime of riches that came from it.   Everything after that should be peanuts by comparison.   If Jenner had any integrity left, or any respect for fellow athletes, the Courage award would have been politely and respectfully declined, with the suggestion that there are other individuals more deserving.    But of course that would have meant sacrificing a night of worldwide fame and attention.   Jenner's public statement on the matter: "What the hell am I going to wear?" 

Edited July 9, 2015 by millennium

[Dejana]

You'd think Caitlyn was stealing someone else's Medal of Honor and not a made-up sports award like the ESPY. I mean, all awards are made up, but sports have "real" awards in terms of competition (medals/championships) and achievements that really matter within the sport (MVPs, Player of the Year, Golden Gloves, Halls of Fame, etc.). Then there are the made-for-television spectacles like the ESPYs. Not that made-for-television spectacles can't be moving or meaningful, but publicity often plays into how they are presented and who's selected to win them. Last year, the Courage Award went to Michael Sam, and he probably got a lot of grief in some corners compared to earlier winners, too.

 

Some people seem to believe that if Caitlyn were more retiring or had transitioned more "quietly", then someone else would get to be the shining beacon of the transgender movement and receive the exact same amount/level of publicity she's getting, but instead she's being a "famewhore" and usurping their attention. IMO, it doesn't work that way, and if not for her, the spotlight would just be dimmer (in comparison), and the same number of headlines on People.com, Google News, etc. that she gets now, simply wouldn't be there about different transgender public figures. A celebrity of her enduring fame/stature just hasn't undergone a gender transition in the public eye, so she's getting a lot more attention than Laverne Cox, Chaz Bono, Janet Mock, et al. Caitlyn's clearly enjoying the paparazzi attention but as far as I can tell, she seems very public about speaking out about issues that transgender people face at large while acknowledging that she has a lot to learn, from other prominent trans women and LGBT teens. I'm sure someone will pick apart her motives to find the purely selfish/shallow motivation in those things, too.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Dejana

[Artsda]

Since Caitlyn joined social media on June 1st she has a total of 16 tweets and she only started blogging this week. She's not out everyday making sure she's photographed by paparazzi and she's not acting like the Kardashians posting selfies on Instagram so IMO she is living her life and isn't being a day to day attention whore.

I don't even think Caitlyn's using social media as social media. She's following nobody, she throws out some PSA type tweets here and there, shout outs to the family (who none she is following) and that's it. I was wondering if it's even her running it or someone from her team. 

[Kromm]

Just saw Conan O'Brian's Comic-Con special and here's the Caitlyn joke made:

 

He's being asked "Comic-Con Citizenship questions" by Nerdist's Chris Hardwick and the joke-question is:

 

Hardwick: "If Caitlyn Jenner was on a Superhero team, which one would it be"

O'Brian: "The Ex-Men".

 

Good on TBS for not editing out this joke the way the even tamer Caitlyn joke (made by grumpy conservative Clint Eastwood, admittedly) was edited out of that recent Spike TV awards show.

[jonesingjay]

I'm sure someone will pick apart her motives to find the purely selfish/shallow motivation in those things, too.

 

Which is pretty disheartening.

[Mu Shu]

Why anyone thinks she's even mildly compelling is a mystery to me.   Bruce Jenner was a crotchety, boring  old man,  and I fully expect her to be a crotchety, boring  old woman, albeit a ridiculously mutton dressed as lamb  crotchety old woman.    

[iwasish]

They released a video compiled of stills from the cameras at the accident scene that Caitlyn was involved in. Whoa. That poor woman that was killed. Her car was hit just the right way to send in reeling into the opposite lane. Very sad.

[millennium]

Here is an article about the car crash and the newly released video:

 

http://www.etonline.com/news/167636_caitlyn_jenner_exclusive_fatal_car_crash_surveillance_video/

 

It's from Entertainment Tonight's site, a long-established, mainstream source of entertainment news.

 

There's nothing remarkable about the article itself.     What caught my attention was the Comments section.

 

It's dripping with hatred.   I can't decide if it's genuine hatred of transgender people or intense hatred of Jenner, the Kardashians and the phenomenon of celebrity itself.   I suspect it's the latter, and the commenters are sadly resorting to anti-transgender hate speech as the handiest and most vehement means of lashing out against Jenner and the publicity machine.

 

The conflation of transgender and the public's disdain for the Jenner/Kardashian phenomenon is part of what I feared would happen when this whole circus began.    The belief that Jenner's celebrity will furnish a get-out-of-jail-free card re: the car wreck isn't helping matters either.  

 

I keep reading op-ed platitudes about how Jenner's "journey" will help to combat bias against transgender people; however, internet discussions like the one going on at Entertainment Tonight lead me to believe quite the opposite, that instead the Jenner situation is stoking it.   The sad part is, the transgendered are taking the hit even though it may be other factors associated with the story that are more actively fueling the hate: media oversaturation, the Kardashian element, the privilege of the wealthy, the farce of celebrity justice, and the Inquisition of political correctness telling people what they can and can't think or say about Jenner. 

 

Prior to Jenner's coming out, I would have said things were slowly but gradually getting better for transgender people.   It seemed to me that more and more people were coming around to a "live and let live" mindset (okay, not so much in the Bible belt, but still ...)   Maybe they didn't understand transgenderism, maybe they didn't agree with it, but they didn't have any good reason to actively hate on it.   Now I wonder if things might be headed in the opposite direction, as Jenner laughs all the way to the bank.

Edited July 10, 2015 by millennium

[Dejana]

When haven't comments sections been a cesspool? So many of them have given the worst of humanity a public venue they simply didn't have in the past. I take the view that the prejudice was always there, but with fewer transgender public figures garnering mainstream attention, there was less of a reason for people who privately thought horrible things to discuss them openly. I seem to recall there were a lot a nasty comments about "respectable" transgender celebrity Chaz Bono for his season of Dancing with the Stars. Frankly just discussing the concept of respectable vs. non-respectable reminds me a lot of the debates you saw in the past about being "a credit to the race". Some thought that if minorities only showed the rest of the world "positive" portrayals, that if people carried themselves with enough dignity, got enough of an education, displayed the right morals, dressed the right way, etc., then the majority would be more accepting and would have fewer reasons to be so exclusionary and disdainful. The problem is that prejudice often isn't logical and if people want to look down on someone, they will cling to the flimsiest of reasons if they must. But if you want to believe that in the absence of Caitlyn, that those saying horrible things about transgender people on the internet wouldn't be as prejudiced, and having a Jenner/Kardashian as a public figure is setting the movement back, nothing is going to change your mind.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Dejana

[jonesingjay]

But if you want to believe that in the absence of Caitlyn, that those saying horrible things about transgender people on the internet wouldn't be as prejudiced, and having a Jenner/Kardashian as a public figure is setting the movement back, nothing is going to change your mind.

 

I know that there are plenty of people that don't agree with Caitlyn's decision to transition. You've made a strong point that in their staunch disagreement, it seems that some people lean on her setting back the transgender movement. I just can't subscribe to the notion that Caitlyn just being herself, and rather harmless with a handful of social media posts and pap shots popping up sets the movement back. I don't think she's really being given a chance to make good on her word to want to get involved and shed more light on the issues that transgender people face. Maybe, she isn't ready. Perhaps, she wants to learn more before speaking out and addressing issues publicly. People just seem quick to jump the gun with her because of her association with the Kardashians, I think she's been unfairly judged and her motives questioned.

[truthaboutluv]

When haven't comments sections been a cesspool? So many of them have given the worst of humanity a public venue they simply didn't have in the past.

This. Seriously, one only has to take a look at comments under stories on US Weekly.com, People.com, Yahoo, etc. And it's not even necessarily hate against any minority group. Some of it is just plain, "celebrities are rich and famous so they're evil and we'll be as hateful towards them as possible." An example just yesterday - Carrie Underwood apparently tweeted about having to break into her own car because her dogs accidentally locked the car with them inside, as well as her baby. The comments saw her being called a bad mother, self-involved, dumb blonde for making something like that happen, etc.

I seem to recall there were a lot a nasty comments about "respectable" transgender celebrity Chaz Bono for his season of Dancing with the Stars.

As an avid DWTS viewer, I can fully attest to that. People threatened to boycott the show, the Pro partner who got assigned to him, Lacey Schwimmer, was raised Mormon and she later talked about people from the Mormon faith criticizing and attacking and judging her, Ellen Degeneres even addressed the backlash on her show and there were many hateful comments every week Chaz was on. Not to mention all the drama that took place on Television Without Pity's DWTS board.

In a more recent example, there is a board that I will not name, where Laverne Cox gets A LOT of hateful comments, the most common being that she is referred to as he repeatedly because the posters don't believe she is anything but a man because "that's how God made her." Her recent cover on Essence magazine with the other cast members of Orange is The New Black sparked pages of angry comments that Essence, a black women's magazine, put "that man" front and center on the cover.

Then there are the comments about Shiloh Jolie Pitt, a child who no one even knows is transgender but she has already spawned many hateful comments, most notably against Angelina Jolie who some believe is an evil, batshit crazy shrew who is deliberately dressing Shiloh like a boy and manipulating her into being confused, just so she can later say she has a transgender child and seem that much more accepting. I'm not kidding and this is all about an 8 year old kid.

I am no fan of the Kardashian/Jenner brand. It's why I've never watched their reality show and I do a very good job avoiding most media around them. I watched the 20/20 interview to see the truth for myself instead of all the tabloid rumors and that's it. I will not be watching the reality show and I have no interest in any media appearances and all the tabloid news. That being said, I feel like the same way some feel Cailtyn may be being too lauded (I have my opinions on the ESPN Courage Award but won't go into it) as some beacon of change largely because of her fame, I think those who hate her because of the Kardashian/Jenner connection are unfairly maligning her at times.

To suggest that Caitlyn may be doing more harm than good to the entire transgender movement for as far as I can tell doing little more than living her life is a stretch in my opinion. It is naive in my opinion to believe that the hateful comments and reactions that exist about Caitlyn wouldn't if she didn't, I don't know, ever go out in public, have the reality show, etc. The fact is Caitlyn by nature of who she is, will be photographed every time she leaves the house and those pictures will be published and people will comment and some of those comments will be hateful not because she's setting the cause back but because there are many transphobic, hateful, ignorant people in the world. And they were there before she transitioned and would be even if she hadn't. I hesitate to say this but it almost feels like some resent Caitlyn for living her truth because of who she is and that inherent dislike of her pre-transition and that's unfair in my opinion.

Edited July 12, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[millennium]

The fact is Caitlyn by nature of who she is, will be photographed every time she leaves the house and those pictures will be published and people will comment and some of those comments will be hateful not because she's setting the cause back but because there are many transphobic, hateful, ignorant people in the world.

 

Or perhaps because there are a lot of people in the world who resent famewhores, are sick of the Kardashians, sick of seeing the rich and famous receive special treatment, sick of having this story shoved in their faces every time they turn on the news, and take offense at being told what they're allowed to think or say about it.   People who may not be transphobic first and foremost, but who may gravitate towards that and take a firmer stance against the transgendered because of the individual and media machine now representing that community.

Edited July 12, 2015 by millennium

[truthaboutluv]

I am not negating the notion that there are people who plain hate the Kardashian/Jenner machine and that inherent resentment is thrown at Caitlyn. However in my opinion, I think it's a cop out to say that resentment is what is spurring transphobic and offensive comments about her. And that that may not necessarily be who some of these people are but that's what they gravitate towards just because of their intense anger at the famewhoring nature of Cailtyn and her family. No, if one is angry and upset and resents Jenner's famewhoring and resents her family and all that, then state that.

 

If one's first instinct is to go the transphobic and offensive road, then guess what, they already had those ignorant and offensive beliefs. That's like someone saying that because Kanye is ridiculous and quite possibly batshit crazy that people who weren't necessarily racist, they may gravitate towards referring to him with the N-word because they're just so fed up by his famewhoring wife and his crazy behavior. No, the truth is they were already racist tools and that just gave them an excuse to spew their hate and bullshit.

 

And may I just say again, that I don't buy into this notion that people are almost helpless and powerless to this family and having to deal with them. As I've said, I am no fan of the Kardshian/Jenner brand. I don't hate them because I don't care enough about them to hate them. Essentially my feeling is mostly indifference. And trust me, there is a lot about that family I don't hear about or know about because I don't care.

 

I have never watched their shows and have no desire to. Sure I see headlines on my twitter feed but I have to make the conscious effort and choice to click on these headlines to read and know what's happening and I don't. Because I don't care. That some act like these people are the evils of the world that they simply cannot avoid at all is ridiculous in my opinion. You can ignore them if you so choose but I feel like some, for all the complaints, want to keep reading the articles, want to keep reading the stories, etc. so they can rant and judge and feel superior to these awful, awful famewhores. 

Edited July 13, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[millennium]

I wasn't suggesting transphobia doesn't exist.    There's plenty.

 

My concern is that Jenner, for the reasons stated above, may ultimately make things worse.

Edited July 13, 2015 by millennium

[Kromm]

When haven't comments sections been a cesspool? So many of them have given the worst of humanity a public venue they simply didn't have in the past. I take the view that the prejudice was always there, but with fewer transgender public figures garnering mainstream attention, there was less of a reason for people who privately thought horrible things to discuss them openly. I seem to recall there were a lot a nasty comments about "respectable" transgender celebrity Chaz Bono for his season of Dancing with the Stars. Frankly just discussing the concept of respectable vs. non-respectable reminds me a lot of the debates you saw in the past about being "a credit to the race". 

Chaz lived what he preached though--as someone who was politically active before transitioning. Are we supposed to deny that this brings a certain amount of credibility?  That kind of (somewhat) objective criteria never existed for people tarred with that questionable honor, "a credit to the race".

 

Caitlyn Jenner is not an apples to apples comparison to Chaz Bono precisely for that reason.  There may be plenty of things people admire from Caitlyn's past as Bruce, but how many of them surround/impact the same area that Caitlyn is now a symbol for? Whereas Chastity Bono was active in the LGBT community long before transitioning, right?  It doesn't mean Caitlyn Jenner has nothing to say or teach, but how can you argue it's with the same authority as someone who stood up a lot longer, a lot more directly?  If people attack Caitlyn, while a good deal of it will simply be because of the Trans issue, ENOUGH of it is because of the Kardashian issue that it's all muddied.  When people attacked Chaz for being on the Dancing Show was there really ANY doubt it was because of the Trans issue? I bet not.

[Dejana]

Chaz lived what he preached though--as someone who was politically active before transitioning. Are we supposed to deny that this brings a certain amount of credibility?  That kind of (somewhat) objective criteria never existed for people tarred with that questionable honor, "a credit to the race".

 

Caitlyn Jenner is not an apples to apples comparison to Chaz Bono precisely for that reason.  There may be plenty of things people admire from Caitlyn's past as Bruce, but how many of them surround/impact the same area that Caitlyn is now a symbol for? Whereas Chastity Bono was active in the LGBT community long before transitioning, right?  It doesn't mean Caitlyn Jenner has nothing to say or teach, but how can you argue it's with the same authority as someone who stood up a lot longer, a lot more directly? 

 

Caitlyn just came out this year and seemed to be running for her gender identity issues, to varying degrees, before then. Lots of people still struggling aren't going join groups with people further along in their journeys, or become activists, years before they make peace with themselves. Caitlyn admits to being new to the LBGT world and having a lot to learn. I don't see her asking to run LGBT organizations or speaking as some expert on all things transgender. The media may hold her up as the only trans woman in the world who matters, but that's hardly how she's presenting herself. She's getting more attention than others before her because she's a lot more famous than ever they were. That's simply how celebrity has worked for a very long time, a century before the public could even spell Kardashian.

 

I'm kind of perplexed by this expectation that famous transgender people must have credibility and lengthy histories of activism. Through the decades, there have been many celebrities who could be considered a minority of some sort. Was it demanded that all of them be serious activists first, celebrities second? Or could they just be singers, actors, personalities, etc. who might have been flashy or demure, stylish or badly dressed, but lived their lives, had fun with family and friends, while also acknowledging the injustices that their group faced and that things could be better in terms of equality in law and in practice? The media may hold Caitlyn up as the only trans woman in the world who matters, but that's hardly how she's presenting herself. She's getting more attention than others before her because she's a lot more famous than ever they were. That's simply how celebrity has worked for a very long time, a century before the public could even spell Kardashian.

 

If people attack Caitlyn, while a good deal of it will simply be because of the Trans issue, ENOUGH of it is because of the Kardashian issue that it's all muddied.  When people attacked Chaz for being on the Dancing Show was there really ANY doubt it was because of the Trans issue? I bet not.

 

What an interesting idea, to suggest that people have to be saintly and spotless, lest they risk not being taken seriously if they're ever attacked in any way...

 

 

New Caitlyn blog with Q&A 

[Kromm]

I'm kind of perplexed by this expectation that famous transgender people must have credibility and lengthy histories of activism.

Because, I'm sorry, you're re-framing the point of view being given to fit your argument.

Nobody here (that I've seen) has delivered the point of view that transgender people must have histories of activism, or even be credible. That's how you're re-framing things.

What was actually said was specifically in answer to the idea that people criticizing Caitlyn Jenner for anything Kardashian is somehow exactly like people criticizing Chaz Bono for doing Dancing With The Stars. And while there are certainly people who criticized both who might be coming from the same place, the counter-point was that there were plenty criticizing Caitlyn for other things, whereas the criticisms of Chaz almost ALL had to do with being Trans.

That's where things like "credibility" come into it. Someone jumping all over Chaz is showing their true colors. Whereas someone criticizing Caitlyn isn't necessarily showing that same bias, because Bruce had and Caitlyn has so many family issues. Like it or not, we can't really equate all of the people getting on Caitlyn case with those who did with Chaz.

[jonesingjay]

New Caitlyn blog with Q&A

 

Thanks for sharing the link to her newest blog entry. I come away from it with the viewpoint that I've always held, there isn't any one way to be transgender. Caitlyn is making her own path, and I think that's fantastic. Every time I see her I can't help but smile because she's finally getting to live the life she wants for herself. 

[Artsda]

TMZ reports everyone will be attending ESPY's except Rob (obvious reason), Brandon (Leah's pregnancy), and no mention of Kourtney (obvious reason). 

 

 

 

And the kids will be there in force ... Kim, Khloe, Kendall and Kylie. Brody, Burt and Cassandra will also be at the ceremony, but Brandon is up in the air because his wife, Leah, is about to give birth. Caitlyn's mom and sister will be in attendance too.
Then there's Rob Kardashian ... we're told he's definitely invited, but it doesn't look good because he's shunned every public appearance for more than a year.

http://www.tmz.com/2015/07/14/caitlyn-jenner-espys-family-kids-no-kris-jenner/#ixzz3ftajB6ER

[iwasish]

TMZ reports everyone will be attending ESPY's except Rob (obvious reason), Brandon (Leah's pregnancy), and no mention of Kourtney (obvious reason). 

No ex wives "because they obviously aren't family any more"

[Crucial]

TMZ reports everyone will be attending ESPY's except Rob (obvious reason), Brandon (Leah's pregnancy), and no mention of Kourtney (obvious reason). 

Ugh so we will be getting the Kim, Khloe, Kendall, and Kylie at the award?  I'm sorry, it's no longer an award, it's the Kardashian Award now with all four of the fame hunters in tow.  Blame this anger on the K-family for it.  It's now about  all the family being photographed showing, interviewed, etc.  It's now not about the award (which she should have won next year I think) and it's about this fame hungry family and Caitlyn is included too. Not watching this year because I don't want to see the duck lip poses of this family.