S02.E01: It's Time To Move On

[ShowStopper]

Good thing Michaela doesn't know about Ana/Eve, since she thinks that any same-sex contact makes someone 100% gay, and interprets her own insane, hysterical homophobic biases as hard evidence for her speculations and likes to label other people for them.

I don't necessarily think Michaela's homophobic, but honestly, if someone you're supposed to marry and love keep a secret from you like that and you realize you don't know them as much as you thought they were, you really are going to start question who they are. If he had disclosed that information beforehand and she decided stayed with him but then dumped him because of it, then that's a different situation imo.

[secnarf]

I think Michaela's attitude is fairly realistic/common.

[ShowStopper]

This podcast was hilarious, the guy with his stuffed nose sounded like those characters, Beavis and Butthead. 

 

I cracked up when he gave a shout out to Michaela to call him because he doesn't have much going for him but being a  heterosexual  man, LOL. 

 

And all the WTF's? and WTF is going on? were all hilarious. Yep, you will say that throughout this show. 

 

I particularly liked it when the girl said it in reference to Wes and Anni's relationship, like does she want to mother him or ....

 

Thanks, that was funny.

 

I also agree with the girl that Bonnie is in love with Annalise, and it's interesting because Anni keeps telling Bonnie that every "bad" thing she's done has been in the name of Sam. So yeah, we know it hasn't, it's all about Anni.  I'm just not sure why Anni seems to act like she doesn't know that Bonnie feels this way, yet she clearly acknowledges Eve's feelings. 

Yeah, I'm looking forward to them delving into the backstory for the Anni and Bonnie relationship, what on earth happened? Where did these two find one another? Rather where did Anni find her, cause you know Anni noticed Bonnie's weaknesses and vulnerability long before Bonnie noticed Annalise. 

 

Annalise is a hunter, she looks for prey.

I agree everything you said. I really enjoyed them. I'm really curious about the Bonnie/Anni/Eve thing as well. Does Anni just not know about Bonnie? Is she just ignoring in denile? Are we just reading too much into it? Lucky for me, I watch the three main shows the podcasters discussed so I was lucky to enjoy the whole show's snarky, witty but deep discussions. They even have a new Buffy podcast as well called "You're Childhood Trauma" and they just started season 1. I think they'll be doing the whole season on HTGAWM, so yay! I'll probably post them in every episode discussion when they post their new podcasts. Hopefully they'll keep it up.

[WhitneyWhit]

I don't want to go too far off-topic, but of the people present at Sam's death, Rebecca was the only one involved in trying to steal the information from Sam's computer. She, along with Nate, came up with that plan, and none of the Murder 4 knew about it.

 

None of the Murder Four knew what was on thumb drive or what Rebecca was doing with it at the time. Michaela just showed up and was surprised to see Rebecca, and when Sam freaked out at her presence, Rebecca told her to call Wes. Wes brought the other two and he tried to talk Sam into letting everyone just leave peacefully. Then Rebecca had the thumb drive out in an obvious place, which caused Sam to freak out some more. The Murder Four try to assist her, not knowing what Sam was freaking out about. At one point, Wes says to one of the others to get the thumb drive. It's at best unclear why he wanted them to, or why whoever got it did so.

 

Felony-murder doesn't apply to the Murder 4 (IMO) because none of them were participants or accomplices in the original burglary. From their actions as portrayed, it seemed like they were acting in defense of Rebecca. 

But Wes told them that Rebecca was trying to prove that Sam killed Lila, and that's why she was there, so they knew what Rebecca was doing , and willing went to join her.  Everyone was there uninvited, and stayed, even though Sam told them all to leave. Then during the fight, Laurel grabbed the thumb drive and tried to make a break for it. So they did have knowledge about what was going on.

Edited September 30, 2015 by WhitneyWhit

[wayne67]

I don't necessarily think Michaela's homophobic, but honestly, if someone you're supposed to marry and love keep a secret from you like that and you realize you don't know them as much as you thought they were, you really are going to start question who they are. If he had disclosed that information beforehand and she decided stayed with him but then dumped him because of it, then that's a different situation imo.

 

Does that mean she told him everything about her previous life, the one she apparently tried to escape from ? I doubt it... and it's not like she didn't keep secrets from him. I don't think a relationship should require you to tell your fiance about every single sexual encounter you've ever had. Anyway it didn't seem like she was upset that he kept a secret but that he was talking too much to attractive guys and that he might run off/shag one. Which is more of a lack of trust about his ability to be monogamous. Being monogamous is a completely different issue than not telling about your highschool/boarding school experimentations. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

But Wes told them that Rebecca was trying to prove that Sam killed Lila, and that's why she was there, so they knew what Rebecca was doing , and willing went to join her.  Everyone was there uninvited, and stayed, even though Sam told them all to leave. Then during the fight, Laurel grabbed the thumb drive and tried to make a break for it. So they did have knowledge about what was going on.

Knowing that Rebecca was trying to prove that Sam killed Lila is not the same as knowing that Rebecca was committing a felony in order to do so or agreeing to participate in the felony.

 

They did not know specifically what Rebecca was doing. Michaela called and told Wes that Sam had attacked Rebecca. Sam said she's doing something with my computer. Rebecca lied and said she didn't find anything. We know that was a lie. The Murder 4 does not. They could believe that she came with a flash drive and having not found anything she was just leaving with her own empty flash drive.

 

Let's say that they inferred it was a lie and guessed correctly that the flash drive had data from Sam's computer. Was their intent to help Rebecca steal it? One can certainly argue that. But given the short amount of time I would say that it's at least equally likely that their intent was not to permanently deprive Sam of the information, but to get him to calm down or some other non-criminal motive.

 

Plus, you would have to look at what each of them intended separately. The strongest cases would be against Wes and Laurel. As I just said, though, it's an open question as to why Wes yelled to get it and why Laurel took the drive.

 

There is no direct evidence from the scene above that Michaela (who just dodged Sam) and Connor (who was hit by Sam and seemed to be trying to protect Rebecca) had any intentions whatsover as to taking the flash drive.

 

In terms of being uninvited, the Murder 4 had the ability to come and go at the Keating house because they worked for Anni. Plus, it would be at least arguably justified by the perceived imminent danger to Rebecca. In any event, Sam asks them to leave and as the clip above shows, the Murder 4 struck a deal with Sam that once they could get Rebecca out safely they all would leave. 

 

Ultimately, even accepting that they had some knowledge of what was going on for argument's sake does not mean that they had the needed mens rea, or guilty mind, to commit the underlying felony. Without the mens rea, they cannot be guilty of the underlying felony, and therefore cannot be guilty of felony-murder.

[ShowStopper]

Does that mean she told him everything about her previous life, the one she apparently tried to escape from ? I doubt it... and it's not like she didn't keep secrets from him. I don't think a relationship should require you to tell your fiance about every single sexual encounter you've ever had. Anyway it didn't seem like she was upset that he kept a secret but that he was talking too much to attractive guys and that he might run off/shag one. Which is more of a lack of trust about his ability to be monogamous. Being monogamous is a completely different issue than not telling about your highschool/boarding school experimentations. 

It's the fact that in her mind, he's delibertly kept it secret. Why keep that a secret if he wasn't hiding something? Especially if it wasn't a big deal. And the fact that his mother didn't exactly deny the accusation of her son's sexual orientation just added to what she already suspected that he indeed may be gay/bi. If he's gay, then he would just be using her as a skirt without her knowledge. If he's bi, then why not tell your fiance that if he had nothing to hide. In her head, is he living a double life? No offense but I'd like to know my significant other's sexual orientation before marriage.

[wayne67]

It's the fact that in her mind, he's delibertly kept it secret. Why keep that a secret if he wasn't hiding something? Especially if it wasn't a big deal. And the fact that his mother didn't exactly deny the accusation of her son's sexual orientation just added to what she already suspected that he indeed may be gay/bi. If he's gay, then he would just be using her as a skirt without her knowledge. If he's bi, then why not tell your fiance that if he had nothing to hide. In her head, is he living a double life? No offense but I'd like to know my significant other's sexual orientation before marriage.

 

Unless it's something she specifically asked him "Have you had sex with other guys?" it would be a lie of omission and depending on how long ago it was, he may not consider it very relevant. For all we/she knows it happened when they were 14 and it was something that happened 10 years ago.

 

Micheala phrased it as "you afraid he might pick up someone worse than me, aren't you?" to his mother which could mean anything from a bimbo gold digger to a himbo.

 

In his mind he might consider it a period of his life where he experimented then went back to liking girls when he was out of boarding school. There's no indication he was using her as a beard, if so, he wouldn't need to marry her for that. He could just have an arrangement with a woman to be seen with him in public and not run the risk of emotional entanglements and pregnancy. For all we know he only ever had sex with one guy in his teenage years and it's not like Michaela asked for more details she just assumed he was still on the down low and would run off with a dude behind her back.

 

It's a bit of reach. Especially since there's been no indication that post her, he's moved on to banging dudes. Also it's hypocritical to be judging someone on something that happened way before you met them and claim some fake moral high ground about it when you recently moved a corpse...

[Stinger97]

Much like the title of this episode, it's time to move on in regard to Michaela and her apparent homophobia. Please keep discussion about the episode. Thanks!

[toomuchtv47]

I have a theory about who shot Annalise.  I think it was Eve.  She stated she hasn't stopped thinking about A since college, she's now defending Nate, putting her back into A's life, had a sleepover that could have been very friendly and the vibe I got was that Eve could very easily get caught up in all the drama.  If the FITA siblings are threatened with the death penalty, Eve could council, putting her at the mansion.  Maybe in time to see A flirting (or maybe more - please no) with Wes.  It might be crack, but I had to put it out into the universe haha

 

I found the premier the best of the night.  I liked the banter between some of the characters but I just have the feeling that the potential of a really fun show is going to wither and die with HTGAWM too.  Oh well, I can be entertained in the meantime.

[secnarf]

Yeah, that idea has been thrown around on these forums quite a bit in the last week - I can definitely see them going that route, but I'll be pretty upset if they do.

[sjohnson]

Knowing that Rebecca was trying to prove that Sam killed Lila is not the same as knowing that Rebecca was committing a felony in order to do so or agreeing to participate in the felony.

 

They did not know specifically what Rebecca was doing. Michaela called and told Wes that Sam had attacked Rebecca. Sam said she's doing something with my computer. Rebecca lied and said she didn't find anything. We know that was a lie. The Murder 4 does not. They could believe that she came with a flash drive and having not found anything she was just leaving with her own empty flash drive.

 

Let's say that they inferred it was a lie and guessed correctly that the flash drive had data from Sam's computer. Was their intent to help Rebecca steal it? One can certainly argue that. But given the short amount of time I would say that it's at least equally likely that their intent was not to permanently deprive Sam of the information, but to get him to calm down or some other non-criminal motive.

 

Plus, you would have to look at what each of them intended separately. The strongest cases would be against Wes and Laurel. As I just said, though, it's an open question as to why Wes yelled to get it and why Laurel took the drive.

 

There is no direct evidence from the scene above that Michaela (who just dodged Sam) and Connor (who was hit by Sam and seemed to be trying to protect Rebecca) had any intentions whatsover as to taking the flash drive.

 

In terms of being uninvited, the Murder 4 had the ability to come and go at the Keating house because they worked for Anni. Plus, it would be at least arguably justified by the perceived imminent danger to Rebecca. In any event, Sam asks them to leave and as the clip above shows, the Murder 4 struck a deal with Sam that once they could get Rebecca out safely they all would leave. 

 

Ultimately, even accepting that they had some knowledge of what was going on for argument's sake does not mean that they had the needed mens rea, or guilty mind, to commit the underlying felony. Without the mens rea, they cannot be guilty of the underlying felony, and therefore cannot be guilty of felony-murder.

She was taking something from his house and they were trying to help her and they had no reason to think her stuff was somehow in his private quarters. Claiming no mens rea is much like pleading insanity in this case I think. And all parties seemed to be conspiring at the theft, which is the underlying felony that led to the murder.

 

But maybe you're right and maybe a defense along these lines would get a not guilty verdict. I think the prospects of a trial that would have derailed their law careers, maybe permanently, was very real and exactly why so many did not want to call the cops, because they themselves knew there was indeed a reasonable case against all of them for murder (Wes and Rebecca, maybe Laurel,) and felony murder (Michaela, Connor.) 

[funkopop]

I saw this posted on Tumblr and it made me laugh. 

 

Bonnie can jump in front of a bullet for Annalise and Annalise would be like "oh you trying to die so you can go see Sam, huh".  

[SneakyCentipede]

I'm surprised at all the confusion about Eggs911 - we saw Rebecca texting someone of that screen-name when she was being held at Annalise. Obviously what happened to her is not going to stay a secret forever so whoever this person is, is going to come to play on the show at some point. 

Last season Rebecca used Michaela's phone to text someone (with a 215 area code, so local) the message "Eggs 911. At Lawyer's House."  So Michaela wanting to know who it was saved the contact as Eggs 911 in her phone. So Eggs 911 is not the person Rebecca was texting's nickname, it's some kind of weird code. Tho I guess Eggs could be Rebecca's nickname since she was using Michaelas phone she would need to identify herself. Tho I figured the person wasn't that close to her because if someone I was good friends with texted me 911 and their location I would be right over there; the person didn't text back. I wanted to reach through my screen and strangle drunken Michaela for texting the number. It's opening them back up as suspects again. But I do wanna know who it is. For some reason my money is it being on Nate, and he didn't come because he knows more about all that has been going on that we are lead to believe. However, I'm only on episode 1, I have some catching up to do so I may have already been proven wrong.

[SneakyCentipede]

  Connor & Oliver are adorable. Oliver is clearly a good influence on Connor, otherwise he wouldn't be celibate, taking PrEP nor moving in with him of his own free will. Connor's telling Oliver that seeing him is the best part of his day was sweet. Connor had better not break Oliver's heart.

 

When Oliver was talking about Connor taking PrEP, Conner made this really weird guilty face over Oliver's shoulder. It made me think he hasn't started the medication which makes me think Connor lied about his test results and is also positive; which is kind of the feeling I got from the beginning. There are so many reasons (some known to Oliver and some not) for Oliver to want to tell Connor to gtfo. The cheating, the murder, the fake drug addiction; I think by not telling Oliver he is positive too it kind of evens the playing field a little. Makes Oliver more needy and dependant on him. I'm wording this terribly, hopefully you can get the gist of what Im saying

[DollEyes]

 I respectfully disagree. If Connor was positive then either he would've said so himself or the show would have. I interpreted Connor's look as his wondering what he did to deserve someone as awesome as Oliver.

[discoprincess]

 

 

So Bonnie killed Rebecca. I am not impressed since they probably made this up a second before writing the episode. Poor Asher though.

 

I'm not quite buying Bonnie as Rebecca's killer. It seems to be way too convenient for the show to pin it on her. The possibility of Laurel being the murderer was more interesting. (The fact that even Frank seemed to be alarmed at Laurel turning out to be a sociopathic killer was amusing.) Why would Bonnie kill Rebecca? It doesn't seem to make sense. Up to that point, her hands and Asher's hands were the only ones from the Keating office to not have blood on them. I hope this confession is fake, and that scene was a deliberate red herring. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

We have been shown Bonnie suffocating Rebecca. So that is what happened. It would be too much of a cheat for the show to be like, "Just kidding! What we showed you isn't what actually happened."

 

As for Bonnie's motives, she has been shown as incredibly devoted to Anni. Live Rebecca posed a risk to Anni. As in, she could blow up the many many lies that Anni told covering up for the Murder 4, and at the very least, she would implicate Anni in her kidnapping. No matter what Rebecca said about her being good, she couldn't be trusted. So obviously Rebecca had to go. 

[aradia22]

So I was out after the boring slog of last season but i couldn't help but be curious... Famke Janssen + that final scene? Damn you, show. I'm back in.

 

I hope Famke sticks around because she's awesome and the law students still don't act that well/have interesting lives.

I'm undecided about how I feel about Annalise and whatever Famke's character was named. There's an uncomfortable bit of this going on and part of me thinks it was a cheap attempt to be shocking and to give Annalise more depth. But we'll see how it plays out.

The club scene made me laugh.

I don't think Wes shot Annalise because there was no blood on him.

I hope they keep last season's mystery in play or resolve it instead of just jumping into the adopted rich kids and pretending last season didn't matter.

[aradia22]

 

Connor and Michaela high fiving each other was adorable. And Laurel and Michaela have seemingly buried the hatchet. Wes has to watch Michaela`s purse! I like the gang kind of bonding. They even got to go to the club together and had fun! Actual fun!

I liked having real levity and not just quips and sass. This show gets too angsty sometimes.

 

And poor Michaela, girl can't catch a break when it comes to being attracted to guys who are gay.

Haha. I forgot about that. While I find Oliver/Connor adorable I almost wish they could break up for a time so that guy could stick around.

 

And yes, her relationship with Wes passed "creepy" a long time ago. They need to either take it somewhere in terms of the storyline, or tone it down.

For real. Just make a decision. There are diminishing returns on just being creepy for no reason.

[discoprincess]

We have been shown Bonnie suffocating Rebecca. So that is what happened. It would be too much of a cheat for the show to be like, "Just kidding! What we showed you isn't what actually happened."

With this show, anything is possible. :)