Lea Michele/Rachel Berry

[Pink ranger]

I don't think that the lack of touring would have hurt lea too much considering several million people per week where watching Glee around her album launch and the fan base overlap would obviously be high. Touring only managers to reach a few thousand people at best, in comparison.

[Hana Chan]

Touring isn't just concerts. It's also working heavily with the media to sell albums (interviews, TV appearances, etc). I know that Lea did do a few TV promotions for her album and a number of meet and greets with the fans, but I was rather surprised that even without a concert tour that more of a promotion push wasn't made. I got the impression that they were heavily depending on Lea's place in Glee to move units, but I would question how successful that was. Neither of her singles sold big numbers and while she's probably got enough sales to get the second album, the album didn't reach gold certification in the US (500,000 units sold).

 

Most recording artists spend several months promoting their albums - the media push when the album is released, the concert tour and local media spots in the cities they play in. With Lea tied to Glee, her ability to promote her album was very limited. But I think that she's also got to make a decision that if she does do a second album (which I believe is pretty certain as far as she's concerned) is how much work is she really going to put into promoting it? Is she going to give it a big priority and spend six months to a year supporting her music career or is she going to try to fit promoting the album in between whatever film or TV projects she takes on? At some point she's going to have to make a decision over what needs to take priority as far as her career goes.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Hana Chan

[caracas1914]

Yes the recording business is extremely competitive and even established artists have a hard time selling albums these days, especially with declining sales because of so many bootleg downloads.

Like Hana Chan said, the question is if she willing to invest 6-10 months pushing and promoting the album and it's singles. If she does more TV and movies it's going to be tough. It's the same dilemma Darren Criss is going to have.

Jarred Leto literally took 5 years off from acting to really push the band " 30 seconds to Mars" he fronts with his brother. Beyoncé and Justin can do it all, but that's about it. The touring, visiting radio stations, doing media, events is all part of it.

[dizzyizzy01]

I have no issue acknowledging Lea's hard work or the fact that in the first tour she did have to carry the lion's share of the songs (since the distribution sucked), but I'm also not going to make it out to be more than it was.

See to me, I think the nature of this comment highlights the way I perceive things. People can't just outright say, yea Lea had the most to do, they have to qualify it that the distribution sucked.

Also when the discussion first came around, I think people did have a hard time acknowledging she did the most on the first tour. Cory was brought up as someone with a comparable workload, and that is objectively untrue.

Lastly, I absolutely never agreed about the poor her/martyr comments. There's no poor Lea required at all in that regard, and that of course her Broadway background helped her take on the task with more ease than anyone else in that cast. But I do think people have a hard time giving Lea credit for the work she puts in without saying "but she also has this background or so and so did this that is just as hard if not harder." That's how it comes off to me anyway.

 

ETA:  fixed the quotes

Edited September 8, 2014 by dizzyizzy01

[camussie]

Then it seems to me that is your perception not what people meant since everyone has clearly explained that is not what they meant.  For example, if Matthew Morrison  had done the Glee tour and had the same song load as Lea I would have said the exact same thing - yes he worked hard but I don't think there is any reason to pity him or to assume a 10 date tour over two weeks was too much for him vocally (which is the comment that started this debate) because surely his Broadway training would have been a benefit to him in that regard.   Just like I don't think there is a reason to pity Harry Shum  (who arguably danced just as much as Lea sang, if not more especially in the second tour) or to assume that the tours were something that pushed him beyond his limits because his training is a benefit to him.

 

As far as my perception (which I fully admit may be wrong) I feel that some expect Lea to be given the lion's share of the credit for the show and everything associated with it succeeding.  And that the contribution that others made is simply not near as important in comparison.  That is something I completely disagree with.  Lea is most certainly one of the major factors for the success of the show in the first 2-3 seasons but she is not the only one.  

 

Until season 5 this was never really the Rachel Berry/male lead show.  It started out with three leads (Rachel, Finn, Will) and one other character who quickly became the face of Glee to the general audience  - Sue Sylvester.  Who the leads were changed over the first 3 seasons - Will became more supporting while first Kurt then Santana became more leads.  Then season in season 4 Kurt, Santana, and even Finn (from the Christmas episode on) became more supporting again while Marley, Sam, and Blaine became leads.  It wasn't until season 5 that Glee became a standard one female/one male lead show.  

 

ETA - I still credit the season one writing as the biggest reason for the meteoric success of the show and consistently I also blame the bad writing  as the reason the quality of the show is at barrel scraping levels now.  Of course the cast, including Lea, made that writing come alive and that also was a big factor in Glee's success.  Unfortunately not even Meryl Streep could make the mess that is Glee's writing now make for a rootable or coherent story.

Edited September 8, 2014 by camussie

[Hana Chan]

It's very dangerous to credit Lea alone for Glee's early success (over a great ensemble cast, intelligent and coherent storylines and attentive showrunners who seemed to have some sense of what direction the show should take). Because if Lea must be credited as the sole reason that Glee was great in its first two seasons, then she also must take responsibility (at least in part) for its downfall and that the audience share went into complete freefall when the show focused on her storyline to a large degree and not being strong enough to hold onto the audience. That's not fair to Lea.

 

Glee worked because Lea was one of several great performers cast (along with Matt, Jane, Chris, Kevin and Cory), a personable supporting cast and good writing. Without any of these pieces, the show would not have been nearly as good as it was (and is showing now what the loss of writing has done to the quality).

Edited September 8, 2014 by Hana Chan

[caracas1914]

Has anyone HERE said she was the sole reason for the early success of Glee?

Otherwise it's a straw man argument where you have a nonexistent claim just to knock it down.

I would say as the lead character she was a major reason for its early success, now if someone wants to specifically contradict that...

Edited September 8, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

I think Lea  was one of major reasons for the show' success but I disagree she was playing the lead character.  Rachel was one of three lead characters in season 1 with some fairly strong supporting characters who were fleshed out in their own right.  I have never bought into Glee was a true ensemble show like LA Law or Hill Street Blues or ER from season 2 on but I also don't think it has ever been a show with one or two undisputed leads (like Bones or NCIS). Well it was never that until season 5, that latter half especially when the show seemed to transition into a show centered on Rachel and Blaine with every other character seeming to exist only in relation to their stories.  So far it looks like that transition may continue into season 6 something I feel that does the characters of Rachel and Blaine no favors.  

Edited September 8, 2014 by camussie

[Cranberry]

This debate is fine (albeit repetitive), but please try to keep it to what people on this forum are saying (you might try quoting specific people instead of making generalizations). There's not much point in debating with people who aren't even reading this forum.

[fakeempress]

I just rewatched the 2010 tour on U-T. For my money, it was a collective affair, with a lot of group performances, and two main soloists - Lea and Amber. I felt Amber had quite a share of the singing too, next to Lea. Can't say what portion was sung live, and if any wasn't but I think the marquee songs by Lea and Amber were live (please correct me iiaw). They showcased everybody else as well. It is as I remember, people went to see it and showed appreciation for the whole cast. So I take issue when the tour's workload and success is attributed solely or almost exclusively to Lea. She did a lot of work, no doubt, it's there on video, as is the work of the rest. So let's not go into extremes. 

 

As for Lea's second album, I expect her to tour and promote more if she wants better success. Don't know what happened with her plans to do some shows this summer. I wonder if she put it off due to the costs and prep time associated with a full tour of the caliber that she/the record company may want. In that respect, I feel Darren was more flexible for his mini tour last summer, with a more bare-bones setup as singer-songwriter plus band type act - apart from the hardware and instruments on stage there were no elaborate sets or set changes, dancers, special video&light show, special effects, and he has done gigs before. Maybe I'm off but that's my impression. 

 

But touring is sort of a must today, and for many the bulk of earnings come from that. I think she could manage chunks of touring time around a possible movie schedule, but it's next to impossible to do it as a regular on a new TV show. I know bands who tour in chunks of time and take breaks in between, especially if they move in between continents - but that extends the tour to at least 2 years. At least with a second album, Lea will have a full roster of original material for a 2 hr show. 

Edited September 8, 2014 by fakeempress

[caracas1914]

But touring is sort of a must today, and for many the bulk of earnings come from that. I think she could manage chunks of touring time around a possible movie schedule, but it's next to impossible to do it as a regular on a new TV show. I know bands who tour in chunks of time and take breaks in between, especially if they move in between continents - but that extends the tour to at least 2 years. At least with a second album, Lea will have a full roster of original material for a 2 hr show.

 

Yes, I don't buy the argument that because millions of people know her from Glee, that her album should have automatically gone gold.   The only TV stars that get recording success  that quickly are the Disney/NIck at night ones  that have a whole synergy of promotion/packaging/touring behind them and have been doing for years.  Glee never had that type of brand or marketing  for the individual actors. 

 

Lea  I'm estimating sold 100-150 K albums in the States, and I'm guessing more than 200-250 K when you get the worldwide market.  Whatever it was it was enough for the Label to want to go forward with another album with her.

 

IF she's dedicated to letting her recording/touring/promotion for an album be a priority , there has as good a shot as anyone to make  a go of a recording career.  However if it has to be more than just a couple of months between acting projects.

[dizzyizzy01]

Then it seems to me that is your perception not what people meant since everyone has clearly explained that is not what they meant.  For example, if Matthew Morrison  had done the Glee tour and had the same song load as Lea I would have said the exact same thing - yes he worked hard but I don't think there is any reason to pity him or to assume a 10 date tour over two weeks was too much for him vocally (which is the comment that started this debate) because surely his Broadway training would have been a benefit to him in that regard.

Yes, this is my perception and my explanation of why I (and perhaps others) have the viewpoint that Lea sometimes doesn't get the full credit she might deserve.  Also, I would have the same opinion if a similar sentiment had been presented about Matt.  Secondly, I clearly said there is absolutely no reason to pity Lea and never said that it was vocally too much for her.  All I have said is that the first tour relied very heavily on Lea and that she's a critical part of the success.  I have never stated she's the ONLY reason it was successful, but I do believe they wouldn't have been able to do it without her.

 

I just rewatched the 2010 tour on U-T. For my money, it was a collective affair, with a lot of group performances, and two main soloists - Lea and Amber. I felt Amber had quite a share of the singing too, next to Lea. Can't say what portion was sung live, and if any wasn't but I think the marquee songs by Lea and Amber were live (please correct me iiaw). They showcased everybody else as well. It is as I remember, people went to see it and showed appreciation for the whole cast. So I take issue when the tour's workload and success is attributed solely or almost exclusively to Lea. She did a lot of work, no doubt, it's there on video, as is the work of the rest. So let's not go into extremes.

 

 

I have said all along that Lea and Amber carried the brunt of the vocals for the first tour with Lea doing a bit more.  Lea and Amber sang live for the majority of their songs.  Jenna's True Colors was also live.  A lot of the others were lip syncing to backing tracks.  I also never said people only went to see Lea or anyone in particular.  And again, I never said she was the only reason the tour was successful, I was stating the fact that by nature of how the tour was structured they relied on her the most with Amber being second.

 

I think it's just an interesting dynamic with Lea.  I will admit that I'm probably biased and perhaps pay more attention to comments regarding her, but I do feel that people give her a much harder time whenever someone tries to state their opinion about how much she's contributed to the show's success.  I realize part of it may be that sometimes the praise is a bit hyperbolic, but even when I don't think it's that exaggerated, I do think people have a hard time of leaving the compliments at face value.  I don't know if it's because she's such a prominent name/character on the show, or the fact that she has a somewhat polarizing personality, or what really.  It's just interesting to me.

 

IF she's dedicated to letting her recording/touring/promotion for an album be a priority , there has as good a shot as anyone to make  a go of a recording career.  However if it has to be more than just a couple of months between acting projects.

 

 

This is something I'm very curious to see play out.  Very few people can manage to have a robust acting career and music career at the same time.  One will most certainly have to take a backseat at some point, and I wonder how that will work out.  And honestly, while I liked her album overall, and I do think it showed potential, there's definitely room to grow there.  I think she has the goods, but there are a lot of variables that have to work out for her and she's going to have to put her focus there (at least of a while) for it to succeed.

[tom87]

dizzyizzy01 - I get you often times is seems like even a compliment for Lea comes with a caveat.

 

Advance35

Aug 30 2014. 8:00 am

I just hope to god she has a sweet back door deal where she get's more of a profit share than is publicly known.   Lea carried this show in Season 1, poor girl had to be put on Vocal Rest because SHE had to insure the first Glee Tour was a success.    This girl deserves a medal.    While them making other characters top tier probably took some of the load off Lea, the show sure suffered as a result.

 

 

This is the only  persons that has made the claim that people have been discussing for days now.   No on else has said she carried anything alone tour or show. 
 

 

This is something I'm very curious to see play out.

 

 

Lea at most could have only done a small tour which she talked about doing but it seems glee was a bit shakey on when it was going  to start back up so June was really her only option.  Also the fact that she actually had to push back the release of the album may have  changed some original plans too cause in May she was promoting the book.   So I have to think they decide  it just wasn't worth the money or time just for a few dates.

 

While Lea would love a hit song or two any singer would I suppose, I think acting maybe more of what she wants for now. Now sure how tied up she would want to be in another project for awhile.    I think mostly she will follow the opportunities present the best she can.    

Edited September 8, 2014 by tom87

[dizzyizzy01]

I think mostly she will follow the opportunities present the best she can.

 

 

I think this is very true.  She's been pretty savvy in picking opportunities that have worked out pretty well for her.  Not many people can claim to have worked fairly consistently over a 20-year span.  I do selfishly hope she'll do a tour at some point though.  I would like to see her perform live again.

[camussie]

I get you often times is seems like even a compliment for Lea comes with a caveat.

 

 

By the same token, through this discussion my perception has become, that some expect Lea to be given credit above all others for Glee's success and when she isn't it is assumed that people are qualifying her contributions and/or are not "being appreciative" enough of Lea and her work.

 

This is the only  persons that has made the claim that people have been discussing for days now.   No on else has said she carried anything alone tour or show.

 

 

Likewise no one said she didn't work hard yet that has been brought up repeatedly as something people supposedly posted.  

Edited September 8, 2014 by camussie

[tom87]

By the same token, through this discussion my perception has become, that some expect Lea to be given credit above all others for Glee's success and when she isn't it is assumed that people are qualifying her contributions.  

 

 

Likewise no one said she didn't work hard yet that has been brought up repeatedly as something people supposedly posted.  

 

 

Saying she doesn't always get enough credit now is not the same as saying she should get more than others or all the credit.

I think this is very true.  She's been pretty savvy in picking opportunities that have worked out pretty well for her.  Not many people can claim to have worked fairly consistently over a 20-year span.  I do selfishly hope she'll do a tour at some point though.  I would like to see her perform live again.

 

If I was in control of her career I would have had her been doing cabaret type gigs once in awhile , while glee was going but thats me.  

[Hana Chan]

Yes, I don't buy the argument that because millions of people know her from Glee, that her album should have automatically gone gold.  

 

<snip>

 

IF she's dedicated to letting her recording/touring/promotion for an album be a priority , there has as good a shot as anyone to make  a go of a recording career.  However if it has to be more than just a couple of months between acting projects.

 

Agreed. If her marketing team was planning on the Glee fans to be a built in audience for her album, that was probably a bit of a miscalculation. I don't think anyone in the cast, Lea included, can take anything for granted as far as marketing their outside projects. Glee is so dead in the water that it's probably less a help than a hindrance nowadays. There might be a little built in interest (especially since Lea putting out an album has been anticipated for several years now), but that's no substitute for the nose to the grindstone marketing that's really needed to move units.

 

Which will take priority will likely depend on what kind of film/TV offers Lea gets once Glee is done. If the offers are very good ones (and I have no reason to doubt that she would at least initially get some interesting things coming her way) then it's going to be hard to plan out a real recording career. There are plenty of actors who put out music but the only one that really makes focusing on his band a priority (as cited above) is Jared Leto. For everyone else, they put out an album or two, play a few dates here and there and keep the music as more of a sideline than an actual focus for their careers.

[caracas1914]

Christina Aguilera, highly visible as a judge on " The Voice" AND a seasoned recording artist had her last album fairly bomb so there is no way anyone can just blithely assume TV exposure guarantees sales. Obviously I'm a fan but I think it's impressive with limited marketing/promotion Lea moved between 150-200 K for her album. Which is why the Label is willing to go with a second album for Lea.

I wouldn't be surprised for marketing and profile reasons that her 2nd album is released before Amber, Chord, Darren or Naya release their first. Nothing against them, but Lea, along with Jane, has a high GA profile. Even people who don't watch Glee know Lea, she may be a "minor" celebrity but she does have magazine covers and national endorsements which transcend Glee. She can still get on talk shows so the marketing/promo is there, but yes, she needs a commercially appealing album and luck and ALOT of touring/promo and giving her recording career priority.

[tom87]

I don't see music as her priority unless some song hit it big and she may want to ride that hot hand for awhile. 

 

I actually commend her for waiting . If she did put out an album when they first approached her it may have had a better chance at selling more  but she choose to wait.   

[caracas1914]

I don't see music as her priority unless some song hit it big and she may want to ride that hot hand for awhile.

 

Could be, though I would imagine for a second album the label will insist on a more concentrated effort from Lea's part as far as marketing/promo/touring then just a few weeks.   Glee will be over by February with the shooting.   I keep on going back to Jarred Leto as an example,  but fair or not Lea is going to have to make a choice if she wants to have a legitimate shot as a recording artist. 

 

It will be very hard if she gets other tempting offers.   Supposedly they are finally making a movie version of "WICKED" , I would think Lea would audition or even be on the short list of candidates for Elphaba.  

Edited September 8, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

Could be, though I would imagine for a second album the label will insist on a more concentrated effort from Lea's part as far as marketing/promo/touring then just a few weeks.   Glee will be over by February with the shooting.   I keep on going back to Jarred Leto as an example,  but fair or not Lea is going to have to make a choice if she wants to have a legitimate shot as a recording artist. 

 

It will be very hard if she gets other tempting offers.   Supposedly they are finally making a movie version of "WICKED" , I would think Lea would audition or even be on the short list of candidates for Elphaba.  

I don't see her getting Wicked.  It is either Idina or a bigger name.  Idina only has a chance now cause of  Frozen and green paint helps hide your age.

 

But I think Wicked is as overrated as Let it go.   So what do I know. :)

Edited September 8, 2014 by tom87

[Advance35]

I have to agree,  I have nothing against "Let It Go", it was ok but I don't think it's worth all the noise the General Populace has made over it.

 

I am now more curious than ever if the writers are going to pair Rachel up before the final curtain comes down on Glee.   The show has definitely gone right when I thought it would (or often should've) gone left, but I can't swear I think Rachel will end the series as a "Star".   Many people want to be famous and sometimes for whatever reason it just doesn't happen.   I think Rachel will end the series on a good note but what that will look like is the only thing that has me curious about the future of this show, could care less about what happens to any of the other characters.

 

I'm thinking they are going to give Rachel a love interest (if maybe a subtle one) and while we probably won't get to see them break the headboard, I think we'll have a strong impression that true love has finally found Rachel Berry.

[caracas1914]

I'm leaning that they may have Rachel end up staying in Lima, happy with her new passion of teaching Glee kids the power of music. She will belt out great numbers in the choir room ( and local community theatre) to inspire others to follow their dreams , and have a couple of kids with Football Coach Sam.

It's the way to keep the Finchel happy ending Ryan originally envisioned.

Mercedes as a recording star, Kurt divorced and starring in Broadway ( with Jesse St. James, proudly now out at his side) , Mike with a dance studio, and Quinn as a TV actress (also divorced)  Tina bitter but wiser as a yoga instructor, will visit from time to time to help with the kids and choir competitions. Santana and Brittany will be blissfully happy in their SoHO loft as Santana is now the national spokesperson for yeast infection products. I'm sure Rachel will kill it in the local production of the Vagina Monologues.

The final will be Rachel singing " Fireworks" while her students lovingly gaze at her and Sam takes off his shirt to complete the circle of Star! Rachel  shown as fulfilled and happy.

Edited September 19, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

I'm leaning that they may have Rachel end up staying in Lima, happy with her new passion of teaching Glee kids the power of music. She will belt out great numbers in the choir room ( and local community theatre) to inspire others to follow their dreams , and have a couple of kids with Football Coach Sam.

It's the way to keep the Finchel happy ending Ryan originally envisioned.

Mercedes as a recording star, Kurt divorced and starring in Broadway ( with Jesse St. James, proudly now out at his side) , Mike with a dance studio, and Quinn as a TV actress (also divorced)  Tina bitter but wiser as a yoga instructor, will visit from time to time to help with the kids and choir competitions. Santana and Brittany will be blissfully happy in their SoHO loft as Santana is now the national spokesperson for yeast infection products. I'm sure Rachel will kill it in the local production of the Vagina Monologues.

The final will be Rachel singing " Fireworks" while her students lovingly gaze at her and Sam takes off his shirt to complete the circle of Star! Rachel  shown as fulfilled and happy.

Really you have to give Rachel a crappy ending an take Jesse St James too?

 

I hope you are so wrong.

[caracas1914]

I hope you are so wrong.

 

Believe me it's soo not what I want for Rachel but I think the show would go there.

 

Ryan seems fixated on his Finchel resolution  making it all come full circle in Lima Ohio.  Plus I think Ryan thinks fucking football players is the ultimate happy ending.

Edited September 19, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

I wouldn't call it a Finchel resolution as much as he is fixated on a choir room ending.  Making sure the show ended in the location he considered the heart of the show was and still probably is what drives how he wants to close the curtain on Glee.  Finn's and Rachel's stories individually and together were very much a secondary consideration to that, by far.  Basically they were going to be the props he used to drive his "choir room above all else" vision home.  With Finn gone he needs some other way to do it so now we have what we have for season 6.  It sucks, for sure, but it was never really about a Finn/Rachel ending.  Sure they ended up together but that could have (and should have) happened in New York.  By planning on it happening in the choir room, with the implication that that is where  they will remain, RM got the last say on exactly what was the heart of the show.

[tom87]

I wouldn't call it a Finchel resolution as much as he is fixated on a choir room ending.  Making sure the show ended in the location he considered the heart of the show was and still probably is what drives how he wants to close the curtain on Glee.  Finn's and Rachel's stories individually and together were very much a secondary consideration to that, by far.  Basically they were going to be the props he used to drive his "choir room above all else" vision home.  With Finn gone he needs some other way to do it so now we have what we have for season 6.  It sucks, for sure, but it was never really about a Finn/Rachel ending.  Sure they ended up together but that could have (and should have) happened in New York.  By planning on it happening in the choir room, with the implication that that is where  they will remain, RM got the last say on exactly what was the heart of the show.

Then just let Will be the glee director the guy is only in his 30's.

[caracas1914]

Rachel is yet another "facet" of Ryan Murphy so I think she's as much a star of the show as the choir room (Season 4 was an aberration where Ryan was desperately trying to make the Noobs stick) so the show has to end with her.

After Season 1 the show lost interest in the Will character, whereas Rachel is still the shining star to hitch the other characters as supporting . If anything the show now is more skewed /focused toward Rachel than ever before.

Edited September 19, 2014 by caracas1914

[Sara2009]

Can't the choir room ending easily be Rachel giving ND back to Will? I just have doubts that Will will end the series

as the VA coach.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Sara2009

[Advance35]

Really you have to give Rachel a crappy ending an take Jesse St James too?

 

I would love for Rachel too end up with Jesse, I don't think it would happen but I think that would be a suitable ending, with them both hatching a plan to become Stars.  Sigh.  If only this show was written the way I want.

 

 I think the only thing that would get J. Groff back is a one-scene wrap up with Rachel Berry.   He's the only male character I didn't grow to relentlessly hate during the course of the show.

 

Also saw some really cute pictures of Darren and Lea filming today.   They look adorable and I couldn't help but smile,   Hopefully it's a fun scene.

[caracas1914]

Jesse St. James was somewhat spared as a character but then again the show didn't really focus on him after Season 1.  He became a prop to Rachel to say she was the greatest star yet sadly his own star quality was dimmed to make him more of a buffon.  Flunking out of UCLA, a villain in the Unique SL, and fired from VA as a coach.   I just wish the show would end up showing Jesse as the Broadway icon he deserves to be .

 

Oh well, once he comes out as gay and hooks up with a divorced Kurt he might have his happy ending with their wedding.   Rachel will serve as maid of honor/best person at the ceremony and bring the ND kids to perform at the reception, with Tina being the entertainment with "Dunk the sad bitter girl in a pool of her tears" booth.

Edited September 19, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

Rachel is yet another "facet" of Ryan Murphy so I think she's as much a star of the show as the choir room (Season 4 was an aberration where Ryan was desperately trying to make the Noobs stick) so the show has to end with her.

 

 

I don't dispute the show has to end on Rachel (and when he was alive Finn) but I think having his leads/stars  end up in the choir room was his way of underscoring the choir room being the heart of the show. That is why it was never an option for it to end on Will in the choir room.  He simply wasn't an important enough character to end the show on and because in RM's mind the show had to end in the choir room to underscore its position as the heart of the show, that meant a Finn/Rachel ending in it.

 

I am hoping he has a change of heart about Rachel staying in Lima, now that Finn isn't there and probably more relevant, now that he has found a way to move everyone back to Lima for season 6 (thus making sure the audience understands that it is like Mecca for the originals) but I am skeptical that he will.  In the end it will depend on what matters most to him - Rachel's characterization or the choir room as the heart of the show.  I am betting on the latter seeing as how from season 4 on he hasn't seem to give a hoot in hell about the characterizations of his leads as long as his precious choir room was featured.  If he did he would have never planned on Finn "learning to accept" never leaving Lima, not even for college  (even though his original story was all about how Finn needed to stop coasting through life and step out of comfort zone) and Rachel giving it all up to return to Lima or for that matter Finn being fine with her doing so.  

Edited September 19, 2014 by camussie

[ThatThingYouDo]

They're all props to Rachel now that the whole star maker noobs thing is over. It's her story with a side of look how mad we can make the shippers still hanging in there with Klaine even though they obliterated everything good about that at least a season back.

[Advance35]

Well I'm looking forward to potential Rachel and Sam interaction this year.

 

I know he's been deemed a Finn replacement but I've always preferred Sam between the two and it wasn't just because he had signifigant superior muscle tone. He just always struck me as the "Aw Shucks" type that the writers probably WANTED Finn to be. Based on that one episode the other season, I like what I saw in terms of Sam/Rachel chemistry. I'm hoping the writers go through with it and I have a feeling they will. The hypnosis thing is ludicrous but this is Glee and the fact that it awakened feelings for Rachel. Yea I'm optimistic she won't end up alone.

[Advance35]

Well this thread has been quiet for a while.

 

Loser Like Me, wasn't bad.  I enjoyed Rachel's version of "Let it Go" and I like that she didn't buckle and crumble at Sue's VERY sharp barbs.   Rachel in her earlier days use to be a little TOO easy to hurt so it's good to see she's armored up to an extent.

 

LOVED Her scene with Will.   He's always seemed like he's really cared about Rachel (often times despite his own wishes, she is second only to Sue in terms of characters that can make his head explode), so him being so warm with her at the Vocal Adrenaline rehearsal was very nice to see and so was Rachel being a guest at his place for dinner.

 

Also really liked the Jane/Rachel interaction.  The Jane character seems to have the same Verve, Gusto and Omph that Rachel Berry did when the character was introduced but in a completely DIFFERENT way.   It's not the New Rachel like they tried with Marley and embarrassingly, with Tina after Rachel graduated.   Jane is Jane, if anything I'd say Jane is a LOT nicer than Rachel was in the beginning.

 

I liked the friendship that was shown between Blaine and Rachel in the beginning.  I've always felt Rachel wouldn't really want/try to keep in touch with anyone if her career took off.     I honestly don't think it's in the characters nature but her and Blaine had a really nice vibe.   It helps that I've always gotten the impression Blaine likes Rachel even when she's at her most antagonistic.

 

Also really liked Rachel's scenes with Sam.   Liked that she was frequently hiding behind her shades and liked that Sam was kind but not overly so.   I've always gotten the impression he didn't mind Rachel, even when a majority of the club did.    He's a nice easy-going counterbalance to Rachel's High Maintenance "Star".

 

Cracked up at Rachel walking through the boys locker room. LOL

 

And LOVED her wardrobe.   Short skirts are a Rachel Berry hallmark.   There's a reason she's managed to catch the eye (At one time or another) of hotties like Puck, Jesse, Brody and Sam for a minute in  Season 5.

[Hana Chan]

I've said this before, but on rewatch (I can't believe I just sat through this a second time) the show is really, really downplaying just how huge Rachel's fuck up with her career really is. I get that they want to keep the audience invested in Rachel's eventual redemption and you don't want to totally lose sympathy for your primary lead, but there was a lot of dishonesty with how her storyline is being set up. They want us to forget that she spent a good portion of the last season as an uber diva on steroids and now that everything has crashed and burned around her (due entirely to her choices and self-indulgent decisions) we're being asked to see this as some sort of grand Shakespearean-level tragedy.

 

What precisely should I feel sorry for Rachel for? That she didn't have the brains to take a leave of absence from NYADA and quit only after being called out on her half-assed classwork (insulting the Dean on her way out the door)? That she got bored of her starring Broadway role in a matter of a few short weeks (whispers of a Tony nod notwithstanding) and broke her contract when something more interesting came along? That even with all the warning signs that the TV project was likely to be a train wreak, that she still signed onto it? Sure, it's sad to see someone have all their dreams come crashing down around them but my sympathy is going to be very tempered when you consider that none of the bad things that happened to Rachel (with the sole exception of her fathers splitting up) can't be directly traced back to Rachel's actions.

 

None of her supporters (i.e. enablers) are doing her any favors by not being honest with her just how badly she fucked up. No, Schu... "That's So Rachel" wasn't a "misstep". It was the last of a long series of missteps, each entirely avoidable if Rachel could have gotten a handle on her own ego and not allowed herself to get sucked into the delusion that being talented would allow her to overcome any mistakes. That there would always be another opportunity right around the corner if things didn't pan out exactly as planned. Someone needs to be honest with Rachel about just what she did to herself and that it's going to take a long time to overcome the kind of professional disaster she perpetrated on herself.

[ComfySweater]

If they were honest about it her only possible future career move is Branson. They have to lie because she screwed up so big nobody ever hires that again except a tourist trap that busses in their customers. 

 

I'd actually love to see Rachel do her time in purgatory/Branson to rebuild some sense of reputation of somebody who shows up every day and works to the end of her contract. Glee club can't do that for her. The Branson circle of hell as a Streisand look alike could. If they weren't so wedded to that choir room, this could be legitimately funny.

[caracas1914]

As a Rachel stan, the one part that annoyed me was the intervention in Will's house where her Dad, Blaine and Sam along with Will forced her to see her TV show to be able to get "over it'.

 

Being the perfectionist that Rachel Berry is, she should have told them "FUCK OFF, I will absolutely not see that tripe ever again."

 

Seeing the first two episodes her fighting Kurt on being co directors makes a lot more sense since she is FUNDING the Glee club with the last of her TV money.  Hell, I'd fight having to be a co-director too under those circumstances.

Edited January 11, 2015 by caracas1914

[dizzyizzy01]

Seeing the first two episodes her fighting Kurt on being co directors makes a lot more sense since she is FUNDING the Glee club with the last of her TV money.  Hell, I'd fight having to be a co-director too under those circumstances.

 

 

Also, it's much more clear now that Rachel didn't really seek out Kurt for his help with the glee club.  It was setup that Kurt came looking for help and support about Blaine.  Glee became more of an opportunity for him to stay in Lima to work on winning back Blaine (to which WHY??? KURT???), and it happens to be something he cares about as well.  In that sense, I see why there's a lot of disagreement about the co-director thing.

 

All in all, for this show, I was mostly pleasantly surprised with how things were set up with Rachel.  Granted my expectations are extremely low here, but I'm glad Rachel's re-emphasized her goal to  get back to Broadway.  To me, when she says she lost her dreams and Broadway, I think it meant she had lost her way and she's finding her way back.  

[tom87]

As a Rachel stan, the one part that annoyed me was the intervention in Will's house where her Dad, Blaine and Sam along with Will forced her to see her TV show to be able to get "over it'.

 

Being the perfectionist that Rachel Berry is, she should have told them "FUCK OFF, I will absolutely not see that tripe ever again."

 

Seeing the first two episodes her fighting Kurt on being co directors makes a lot more sense since she is FUNDING the Glee club with the last of her TV money.  Hell, I'd fight having to be a co-director too under those circumstances.

 

I wouldn't even call that fighting at this point. 

[caracas1914]

True, the spoilers implying a power struggle, but it played out Rachel was accommodating Kurt's desire to remain in Lima , rather than Kurt bailing her out.

Edited January 11, 2015 by caracas1914

[tom87]

True, the spoilers implying a power struggle, but it played out Rachel was accommodating Kurt's desire to remain in Lima , rather than Kurt bailing her out.

I was thinking different stuff..

 

Yes the spoiler  "After Kurt arrives in Lima, Rachel convinces him to run Glee club with her.  He remains a NYADA student, taking the job as an intern"   implies Rachel who was the reason Kurt stays in Lima  which of course is not the reason he is there.

 

But I was talking more the exchange the Mr Shue's dinner table and later the disagreement on how to arrange the sheet music as hardly a fight even.

Edited January 11, 2015 by tom87

[caracas1914]

Yup plus as Kurt said it was basically a non issue because they didn't even have a glee club with members yet.

[CMH1981]

So it's a given that Rachel and Sam will end up together?  Is there some reason why Lea couldn't ask Jonathan Groff back for a few episodes?  I don't take his filming the HBO show as a reason since they both film on the west coast.  I would rather see her end up w/Jesse St. James in a flash forward than stuck w/Sam.

Edited January 31, 2015 by CMH1981

[tom87]

So it's a given that Rachel and Sam will end up together?  Is there some reason why Lea couldn't ask Jonathan Groff back for a few episodes?  I would rather see her end up w/Jesse St. James in a flash forward than stuck w/Sam.

I do not think it is a given Sam and Rachel will end up togehter.  But contrary to popular belief Lea doesn't write or produce the show.  : )

 

Jon is more then willing to come back.  Ryan and co don't want that for some reason at least not that we know of...

[Casual Viewing]

So it's a given that Rachel and Sam will end up together? Is there some reason why Lea couldn't ask Jonathan Groff back for a few episodes? I don't take his filming the HBO show as a reason since they both film on the west coast. I would rather see her end up w/Jesse St. James in a flash forward than stuck w/Sam.

Well now we know that Jesse is back for the final episode, so I do hope that Samchele bites the dust. I don't even need St.Berry to happen on my screen, I just need Rachel, and Jesse heading to New York and preferably Sam left in Lima.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Casual Viewing

[ComfySweater]

Well now we know that Jesse is back for the final episode, so I do hope that Samchele bites the dust. I don't even need St.Berry to happen on my screen, I just need Rachel, and Jesse heading to New York and preferably Sam left in Lima.

Yes, let this be her ending. Anything but teaching show choir in Ohio.

[tom87]

I do not think Sam  was a given.

 

I hope Sam isn't a given

 

 Jessie  was the best fit.   But I would be fine with  Rachel and bway.  If Jessie is in NY added bonus freind or whatever.

[Danielle87]

I'm so happy Jesse will be back! Back in season two, I wanted a meta ending for Rachel where she ends up in a Broadway show starring opposite Jesse. The show has overdone it on meta by now so I no longer really want that (although I wouldn't complain if it happened since any Rachel ending with Jesse = love), but I just hope this means NO Sam endgame and Jesse and Rachel ride off into sunset together away from Lima.

[camussie]

I felt like the show always made it clear that while Jesse would be a great co-star or manager for Rachel they were much too similar to make a good romantic match,  That being with him would have her being nothing more than the ultimate self-involved diva post haste.  Never was this more clear when she stood by silent while he insulted all of her Glee friends (including using a racist stereotype by calling Mercedes lazy which is why I loathe Jesse St. James to this day) to unfairly hand her the solo.

 

All of that said I would take him over Sam in a heartbeat.  

Edited February 1, 2015 by camussie