Grant Ward: Hates the Patriots

[Kromm]

Possibly, although that raises the interesting question of just how you hide a mega-aircraft carrier that can fly...

They had cloaking technology (although, yes, that's still ridiculous since it should make a lot of noise, displace a lot of air, ground or water under its thrusters, etc.).

[Raja]

They had cloaking technology (although, yes, that's still ridiculous since it should make a lot of noise, displace a lot of air, ground or water under its thrusters, etc.).

I wonder how you hide an academy taking the top high schoolers world wide and disappearing them to unknown work and making it secret. Along with a building to rival the pentagon overlooking DC? I prefer the theory that they did secret work and as someone said in some other thread were like NCIS before the TV show and known only to a few

[KirkB]

SHIELD isn't a secret, it's been around for 70 or so years (even if it wasn't called SHIELD until around the time of the first Iron Man) and a lot of people have heard of it. But what they actually do is a secret, or at least it was until New York.

[Jeezaloo]

Possibly, although that raises the interesting question of just how you hide a mega-aircraft carrier that can fly...

 

They had cloaking technology (although, yes, that's still ridiculous since it should make a lot of noise, displace a lot of air, ground or water under its thrusters, etc.).

 

 

Not to mention the paperwork involved, or the funding involved, or the people whose careers revolve around knowing that information, or the people whose careers revolve around distributing that information. I'm guessing it wouldn't be strategically sound to try to make SHIELD entirely secret.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Jeezaloo

[kitlee625]

So, I agree that Ward could be redeemed, and that certainly may be where the writers are going to go with his character, but I disagree that that is the most likely arc for Ward. I just don't see his motivation for redeeming himself and working to earn back the team's trust. He has not yet expressed remorse for what he did, and has continued to insist that he was justified. Skye has rejected him several times and teamed up with May to take him down, so I don't know that he is thinking about a way to win her over. (Unless it is by unleashing the monster within her.)

 

Previously he was motivated by his loyalty to Garrett, and he stayed loyal to him through the finale, even as he doubted some of Garrett's actions. Now that he's in custody, I could see him becoming furious at Coulson, Mike, and the team for killing Garrett and throwing him in jail. I could also see Raina breaking him out in order to get his help going after Skye, and the two of them starting their own anti-Bus. Nothing against Ward personally, but I think the show would benefit from an antagonist who had a personal connection to the audience and to every main character.

Edited June 2, 2014 by kitlee625

[Kromm]

I don't think Ward is there to either be redeemed OR to be a future Big Bad.  I think he's there to continue to ramp up melodrama and muddle feelings. If he's "redeemed" at all, it will be in his last seconds of life, saving Skye's life or something of that nature.

[Kromm]

I don't think he's going to get together with Skye, but I think his genuine love for her was supposed to show us that he can feel real feelings. That he's not a hundred percent psycho/sociopath. And while no, Grant wasn't brainwashed in the literal sense, his lack of understanding that his actions would in any way turn Skye off, shows that Garrett had really turned his head around.

 

I think that lack of Garrett and being totally under Coulson's control, will cause a change in the character. Again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I am saying I see that's where the show is headed. I also agree he will risk his life for someone, and that will be his redemption, but I don't believe he will actually die.

I don't particularly see the point of it if he DOESN'T die.  An unrealized grand sacrifice would still leave him as the guy who saved one life and extinguished countless others.  A realized sacrifice allows him to represent the ideal of wasted potential.

[FurryFury]

I can't see Skye/Ward as love, I see it as an unhealthy obsession.

[ChelseaNH]

Yeah, I don't see Ward being capable of actual love.  Doesn't sound like he got much love growing up, which is usually pretty important.

[Kromm]

Well, he felt something for Skye that he thought was love, and I think if something were to happen, he'd risk his life to save her. I also think without Garrett in the picture constantly reminding him not to be weak, and him being isolated, will change him as a character. 

 

Time will tell, I guess.

But what matters most IMO isn't what the narrative claims in terms of his character changing, it's whether or not the viewing audience finds it believable and acceptable.  Oh, in the short term shows like this always do whatever the hell they want, and maybe to their detriment in the long run too, but I do suspect that this is the kind of thing that could turn fans on a show if mismanaged.  Is the audience willing to accept someone "changing" who hasn't paid a real price for mass murder? What's the proper payback for that if so?  He's not an Angel The Vampire or Winter Soldier, where they've been given built in excuses for being mass murderers. Since the show insists he's both sane and under his own control, there's different ground being explored here. 

[colormeblue]

 

Is the audience willing to accept someone "changing" who hasn't paid a real price for mass murder?

They did it with Romanoff. From Loki's run-down of her sins (at least the ones he knew about) in The Avengers, she may have a lot more to atone for than Ward does. And, from what I understand (not being a comics person myself), the comics genre is all about redemption.

[ZombieUpNorth]

They did it with Romanoff. From Loki's run-down of her sins (at least the ones he knew about) in The Avengers, she may have a lot more to atone for than Ward does. And, from what I understand (not being a comics person myself), the comics genre is all about redemption.

 

I get your point but the Black Widow was brought in that world as a child. They even tell you about it in Avengers, she was as young as the girl that attracted Ruffalo to her. So I cut her some slack because she didnt know any better its how she was raised. Grant made very rational decitions at a much more mature age and the results were mass murder.

 

Ward can have a heroic death yes or even make him a force that can be used for good (say like the Winter Soldier) but that shouldnt be only path avaible for a character. He can be someone trying to acomplish something for his own benefit and in the proccess be  a bad guy for our nice fellows over at Shield.

 

He doesnt have to become good again to be a good character is what Im saying.

[beadgirl]

 

They did it with Romanoff. From Loki's run-down of her sins (at least the ones he knew about) in The Avengers, she may have a lot more to atone for than Ward does. And, from what I understand (not being a comics person myself), the comics genre is all about redemption.

 

I get your point but the Black Widow was brought in that world as a child. They even tell you about it in Avengers, she was as young as the girl that attracted Ruffalo to her. So I cut her some slack because she didnt know any better its how she was raised. Grant made very rational decitions at a much more mature age and the results were mass murder.

I think another crucial difference is that we have not seen Black Widow's crimes, as we were introduced to her long after she had a change of heart.  Moreover, she may very well intend to spend the rest of her life atoning for her sins, with no expectation of being forgiven by anyone.  Given that she has been in secondary roles in two movies, we simply haven't seen enough to know for sure what her mental state is, so we have to take the writers' word for it (well, we don't have to, but you know what I mean).

 

Ward, on the other hand, had a major role on a 22-episode TV show, which spent quite a bit of time on him -- his character, his background, and his misdeeds.  We've seen first hand, so to speak, what he did and what he is capable of, so it is more visceral for us.  Add to that the fact that he has shown not an ounce of remorse, or even an acknowledgement that what he did was objectively evil, and the audience (or at least I) will probably have a harder time accepting his "changing" if it feels inauthentic, or too easy or consequence-free.

[KirkB]

Beadgirl's point that we didn't see any of Widow's crimes but we did see Ward's is a good one and I agree. The thing is, Natasha may have been an assassin and killed lots of people in the past, but as far as we know, she didn't infiltrate SHIELD under false pretenses and actively work against their interests. Ward was doing that for years. So while SHIELD (and the audience) could potentially forgive Ward for all the killing (all of the Avengers have taken lives after all), he did try to kill Fitz and Simmons in particular, and more to the point he lied to and manipulated all of them. Even if they let him back in they'd never be able to really trust him in the same way.

Edited June 10, 2014 by KirkB

[Raja]

Beadgirl's point that we didn't see any of Widow's crimes but we did see Ward's is a good one and I agree. The thing is, Natasha may have been an assassin and killed lots of people in the past, but as far as we know, she didn't infiltrate SHIELD under false pretenses and actively work against their interests. Ward was doing that for years. So while SHIELD (and the audience) could potentially forgive Ward for all the killing (all of the Avengers have taken lives after all), he did try to kill Fitz and Simmons in particular, and more to the point he lied to and manipulated all of them. Even if they let him back in they'd never be able to really trust him in the same way.

I am not sure about Dr. Banner you have to put those on the other guy 

[KirkB]

Well, the Hulk IS Banner, or a part of him anyway, but I take your point.

[kitlee625]

So this actually gets to something that I think the show has done really well with Ward. One thing that frustrates me with a lot of movies and TV shows is that in order to up the drama, they up the body count. Think about Star Trek Into Darkness where Khan wipes out whole cities compared to Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan where he goes after a science station and two starships - Reliant and Enterprise - and only tries to kill the Enterprise. (He maroons the Reliant crew on Ceti Alpha VI.) Now, in my mind, the original Khan is way more sinister and creepy because of how personal the violence is. Compared to, say, Loki, Ward's body count is relatively small. However, by making each kill personal to the story and the audience, and by including his betrayal of his team, they created an antagonist for the team that evokes a strong emotional response in the audience. They could have had him kill only nameless redshirts, but they wanted to make sure that his kills had more weight than that.

Edited June 11, 2014 by kitlee625

[kitlee625]

So taking some of the conversation from the "Shadows" thread, but there's some debate as to whether Ward is going to be redeemed.

 

Personally I don't see that that's where the writers are going. And if they are, then they are doing a horrible job at it. In this episode, Ward was more creepy than sympathetic. Manipulative and gross. The music underlying the entire scene was sinister, not romantic. And, I'm sorry but, "I was in a dark place and got brain damage but woke up with a conscience and full of love to help you" is the dumbest way to do a redemption arc ever. Show don't tell guys. You can't have him decide to be a good person off camera, during the hiatus. That's why I don't think that they are seriously going to redeem him. This felt more like a mock version of a redemption arc. Plus they continued to emphasize the horrible consequences of his actions by having poor Fitz run around brain damaged and hallucinating. If they wanted us to see him as a good guy, they would have limited the fallout from his crimes.

[beadgirl]

I don't think they are going the redemption arc, either, at least not right away.  I reserve judgment on what they are doing; his obsession with Skye is quite creepy, but on the other hand, if he's helping Shield out because he's in prison forever and his evil mentor guy is gone and he has no loyalty to Hydra any more and what else is he going to do with his time, that's actually kind of a refreshing change from "I'll never help! Hydra forever!" or "I'm so sorry! You have to forgive me!"

Edited September 24, 2014 by beadgirl

[SilverShadow]

Ward definitely still has a creepy obsession with Skye, but I believe that he is also genuinely trying to be helpful. My impression is that first his family and then Garrett more or less molded him and he went along with it, but without any orders he has no idea what to do with himself or who he is. As long as he doesn't try and justify his past actions or insist that everyone accept he's changed because he's said so, I'm fine with him sticking around.

[kitlee625]

Yeah so I do like that they went this third route. I assume that they would go either straight up: "Hydra forever" or "I renounced Hydra and want to win your love and be a good boy," so this third route "creepy obsessed Skyward" is an interesting choice. The other thing that I like about this is that he continues to be manipulative. He has very few cards to play, but he's going to play them to get what he wants, an audience with Skye.

Edited September 24, 2014 by kitlee625

[Lady Calypso]

It seems that now that he doesn't have Garrett to latch on to, he's latching onto Skye, who he's formed a personal connection with anyway. It's really sad because Grant Ward seems like a guy who's actually very dependant and can't make decisions on his own, at least not without orders. I'm sure he has feelings for Skye, but how much of that is just because he doesn't have his mentor around anymore? He'll help, but only Skye. He'll help because he wants to feel useful, he doesn't want to be trapped and he may realize to an extent of what damage he's caused. But he's also very delusional because he thinks Skye would want to talk to him, that he could convince her that his actions were because of his childhood. His actions may have started out to be manipulated by Garrett, but that can't be an excuse for all of this fifteen years with the guy. There's a point where he has to be held responsible for what he's done, no matter what. 

 

Can he be redeemed? Sure, I'm fine with that. But if that redemption leads to Skye/Ward getting together, then I don't want it. Let the redemption come slowly and be solely for himself. That's about all I can ask for.

[sjohnson]

If Hawkeye, Black Widow, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver can be reform, so can he. If that seems absurd to the producers they shouldn't have picked the MCU for their playground as far as I'm concerned. 

 

Grant was recruited directly into HYDRA if I recall correctly. Which makes him a spy rather than a turncoat. The attitudes of the others however seem exclusively focused on his betrayal, rather than his deception. He was never on their side. The genuine dramatic choice is whether the winter soldiers obsess over their real losses (and pamper their wounded egos,) or actually take the opportunity to recruit a Hydra agent. Having him turn spontaneously because of Skye and solitary confinement seems to me like deliberately choosing make their arc as uninteresting and trite as possible. Also, their methods are rather reminiscent of Garret's. The motto is, Punishment teaches! Worse, for me, the Skye obsession feels imposed by the script rather than a felt emotion (but that may be my boredom with the Skye character.)

 

Putting Fitz back to work with the aphasia is not just risky for them, but unbelievably callous. I found it hard to believe Simmons ever cared for the man at all since she is encouraging him to tackle the jobs of recovering from brain damage and being miracle science nerd simultaneously. With friends like that, he'll never need HYDRA again. 

 

For me, trashing SHIELD was the key thing in saving the second Captain America from a surfeit of dreary Black Widow/Nick Fury coolness. SHIELD was HYDRA was a good story in our world of the CIA and NSA and drone murders and (goes on and on...) Coulson reforming HYDRA isn't. What a bizarre choice!

Edited September 24, 2014 by sjohnson

[FurryFury]

If Hawkeye, Black Widow, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver can be reform, so can he.

 

Did MCU Hawkeye ever do anything really bad? I thought he was just a member of SHIELD. And I don't know about their takes on Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch because Avengers 2 isn't out yet, so I'm not sure why you think they are comparable to Ward.

As for Black Widow, I think there were hints she was raised as an assassin and was never given a choice until later. Ward wasn't. He was in his late teens when recruited by Garret, and no, he was never HYDRA. He was basically a mercenary for them working under Garret out of loyalty. He didn't believe in their ideals.

 

I like Ward because I think he brings a lot of conflict into the story, which, in turn, brings out the more interesting parts of others' characters. But it's really, really easy to overdo it. If he ever has a redemption, the writing has to be fantastic, with some fresh ideas, and I'm not sure AoS is capable of that with the current writing staff.

[Riful]

I think there are some key differences between Ward and Black Widow that makes it not accurate to link that since BW was redeemed so can Ward (not that I don't believe the show will try). Unlike Ward, Natasha was put into 'the red room facility'/the KGB program as a child, effectively making her a child soldier unlike Ward that was around 10 years older than Natasha when he meet Garret. They used brainwashing techniques which included planting false memories and personality aspects, while pumping her full of many types of experiemental drugs meant to enhance and program her. That degree of manipulation and control over her as a person from such an early age, gives her a lot more slack than Ward imo. And despite the execissve manipulation over her body and mind, she knows what she did was wrong when she defects and wants to make things right. Ward shows minimal regret, even when confronted by Skye over his actions.

[kitlee625]

Exactly. I mean Gamora from Guardians of the Galaxy is a literal child soldier who had her family and entire species killed by Thanos, then was trained/mutilated into a soldier. And she STILL has a conscience and manages to hatch a plan that leads her to getting her freedom and saving the galaxy. So I really don't buy that Marvel is going to say that Gamora has free will but Ward does not.

[ChelseaNH]

Also, Gamora and apparently Black Widow came to the decision to change sides of their own volition; they didn't do it to get out of a cage.

[KatWay]

Here's the thing, I don't think Ward appeals the the same fandom group as the Loki/Damon/etc apologists. Case in point, I hate bad bodys with a misunderstood woobie side, I don't think Loki is at all justified in his doings (though he's entertaining), I hate Damon with a fiery passion these days, I prefer George to Wade (Hart of Dixie), I prefer Nathan to Duke (Haven), but somehow I like Ward and want to see him redeemed. It's not so much that I think he's a woobie, but he's someone who's been brainwashed into being a killer, a traitor and other stuff, so him actually having that epiphany that he was wrong, his life was wrong, and him possibly being capable of understanding that all is interesting to me. I know he's a grown man and all, but we saw just how blindly he was following Garrett and how he panicked when Garrett suddenly didn't tell him what to do. Someone who didn't think for himself for a long time, not on a deeper, who am I as a person, level, having to confront his actions without that safety net is something I might want to see. I think that would be more interesting that predictably killing him off in the Season 2 finale (probably Skye being the one to kill him).

 

That said I must confess that I'm biased because I still find Ward to be more interesting than any of the other characters who fall into two categories: heroic heroes who do heroic stuff (with bonus special snowflake traits) and cartoon villains. The Ward=Hydra reveal is what made me start watching again after I gave up the show after the first couple of disappointing procedurals.

 

Also, we know next to nothing about Black Widow, but Gamora made that decision at least in part because she actively hated Thanos. The guy tortured her, murdered her family, he may call her his daughter, but his view of that is twisted as hell. Whereas Garrett arrived to rescue Ward out of a difficult situation, sure then dumped him in the woods, but I think after he recruited him never treated him anything but like he cared about him. Did he care? Not sure, but he was a mentor and friend to Ward throughout his life and Ward idolised him. Betraying him would therefore be on a different level than Gamora betraying Thanos who she hates.

[MostlyC]

him actually having that epiphany that he was wrong, his life was wrong, and him possibly being capable of understanding that all is interesting to me.

 

This is why he's so interesting for me- to have his life pretty much turned upside-down in the woods (one could argue it was abandonment and cruel) and Garret being his father (abusive in that hurt/reward kind of way) would mess a person up.  It doesn't excuse what he's done, but I'd love to see him make amends for what he did to Fitz/Simmons (in fact, I'd like Ward to SEE the damage he caused to them).

 

Also, I'd like to know if he really killed the dog, because no dead body makes me go "hmmmmm."  Did the producers/show runners/writers ever confirm that he did?

[kitlee625]

So Gamora is not just motivated by her hatred of Thanos. She wants to do the right thing. This is contrasted with Nebula, who also was tortured/brainwashed by Thanos, and who also hates Thanos. Nebula jumps at the chance to join Ronan to kill Thanos and everyone else in the galaxy, while Gamora jumps at the chance to save the people of Xandar/the galaxy. In fact she is the one who tells Peter Quill that they have to do what's right and give the Infinity Gem to the Nova Corps so it can be held safely, rather than just run and hide. So I don't buy that Gamora does the right thing because of her hatred for Thanos.

 

I agree that Ward is in an interesting place right now, more interesting than when he was "grumpy football player." However, just because he could choose to be a good guy, doesn't mean that he will or should. He still has not yet, and the season premiere had him still focusing on his creepy obsession with Skye, rather than focusing on him realizing the wrongness of his actions. Personally I think it would be interesting to see where this obsession with Skye goes in terms of an evil origin story. Because I agree that stories are boring with just heroic heroes and cartoon villains. I want both my heroes and my villains to be interesting and layered. And frankly I think Ward makes a more interesting villain than hero, and the show needs a good villain.

 

As for the Great Dog Debate, the writers/producers/show runners confirmed that it was meant to be ambiguous. It's Schroedinger's cat.

[KatWay]

 

It's Schroedinger's cat.

I think you mean Schroedinger's dog. Sorry, I had to.

 

I'm not saying Gamora was only motivated by her hatred of Thanos, obviously she has a strong moral conscience despite her upbringing and she's contrasted with Nebula who is full of hatred instead. I do think both of them lept at the chance to betray Thanos because he's awful and they really, really wanted to get away from him. It doesn't diminish Gamora's inherent goodness, since she chooses to get away and be a hero, whereas Nebula chooses to help a psychpath on his genocidal killing spree.

 

I just think it's a totally different situation than with Ward who is devoted to Garrett and treated almost like a son by him, until he loses his marbles. Obviously, the enticement to get away wouldn't be as strong in his case, since he doesn't see Garrett as a monster and wants his approval.

[kitlee625]

I just think it's a totally different situation than with Ward who is devoted to Garrett and treated almost like a son by him, until he loses his marbles. Obviously, the enticement to get away wouldn't be as strong in his case, since he doesn't see Garrett as a monster and wants his approval.

 

Absolutely agree. And now that Ward has seen Team Bus kill his mentor/father figure, beat him up, reject his romantic advances, and and throw him in prison, I just don't see where his motivation is to "turn good." They have taken everything he ever wanted from him (Garrett and Skye). He never thought he was evil to begin with.

 

I just see this as really raising the stakes for the show. I liked Bill Paxton, but I didn't feel like Garrett was the best villain because in the end he was over-the-top crazy evil. And Quinn is just boring and slimy evil. The man was horrified about eating meatloaf with his hands! Raina is the only villain from last season that I want to see more of, because she's mysterious and has her own agenda. We don't totally know where we stand with her, or what she's after, and I find that fascinating. Similarly, I think that Ward would be a great villain because he also is unpredictable. Plus there is a "he was their friend" aspect, and a "we created him by killing his father figure" aspect.

 

So yeah. He's messed up for sure. He could decide to be a good person. But even if he did, it would never be like it was before, with him being their friend and trusted ally. And I think it's more interesting if he turns towards the dark side.

[Irishmaple]

I'd like to see more of Ward and Raina as a team.  I liked the reluctant connection they had last season through Garrett.  Raina was using Garrett for her own ends just as much as Garrett was using her for her knowledge and expertise and lack of conscience.  Raina seemed mystified by Ward's emotional bond to Garrett who I believe she saw very clearly as a psychopath manipulating Ward.  Raina still has her agenda and I like to think she'll be back because I enjoyed her brand of pragmatic evil and the actress was excellent in the role.  Actually I'd really like if she and Ward were pursuing their own goals, sometimes intersecting with the SHIELD team and sometimes in opposition.  I have to get both of them out of jail first though!   

[kitlee625]

I'd like to see more of Ward and Raina as a team.  I liked the reluctant connection they had last season through Garrett.  Raina was using Garrett for her own ends just as much as Garrett was using her for her knowledge and expertise and lack of conscience.  Raina seemed mystified by Ward's emotional bond to Garrett who I believe she saw very clearly as a psychopath manipulating Ward.  Raina still has her agenda and I like to think she'll be back because I enjoyed her brand of pragmatic evil and the actress was excellent in the role.  Actually I'd really like if she and Ward were pursuing their own goals, sometimes intersecting with the SHIELD team and sometimes in opposition.  I have to get both of them out of jail first though!   

 

Yes! All of this! I want them to team up so badly. They had such an interesting dynamic, and I think they would make a great team. I think Raina is out of jail, so I am really hoping that she breaks Ward out.

[kitlee625]

Does anyone else think that Ward has been in contact somehow with Raina since the finale? Otherwise how would he know that Skye's father is out there (Raina mentioned that the parents were monsters, nothing more), or know how to find him?

 

Love that we got to see some of his motivation this episode. I'm glad it's not something trite like "he's doing this because he loves her." Give me a Ward who is a creepy, manipulative schemer, not a lovesick puppy.

[KirkB]

We have no idea how much stuff Raina may have filled Ward and Garrett in on during their time together. Or Garrett himself may have told Ward, before or after he got his expanded consciousness.

[MostlyC]

I may be the only one who doesn't like Raina, so the idea of a Ward/Raina Team makes me feel stabby.

 

The actor has put on some serious muscle mass- wow.

 

I want redemption for Ward, but man oh man I was So. Truly. Happy to see Fitz get a little revenge.  I think Ward totally deserves more payback for his crimes.

 

I look forward to learning more about Ward's eff-ed up family.  Because they sound like they are a scary combination of the Manson/Mafia/Kennedy/House of Atreus families.  Yikes.

[Irishmaple]

Now that Ward's broken out, does this mean I'm getting my Ward and Raina dream team?

 

As a shallow aside, more workouts please.  That handstand push-up thing was hilarious.  I can't even imagine the damage I would do to myself attempting that.

[FurryFury]

I was thinking about that scene with Ward's and Cristopher's accounts of that episode with their brother, and it occurred to me that maybe this brother's (Thomas, I believe, was his name) appearance and the truth about that incident could uncover some new information and/or propel some character development for Ward if the writers are not planning to kill him off in this season (which is a totally valid option, but I still find him more interesting than any of the other characters, so I'll miss him). It kinda feels like there's more to it that we thought.

[kitlee625]

There may be, but I wonder how much the writers are going to dwell on the past of Ward's actions. Personally, if they want to show some character growth for him, I'm much more interested in what he does now that he's free, than what he did as a kid. Either he was bullied and abused by Christian into abusing his brother Thomas, or he did it of his own free will. Either way, he grew up to join Hydra, betray his team, kidnap Skye, and kill/try to kill many innocent people. I don't think that anything they show me about his past is going to change how I feel about him.

[FurryFury]

They are in a kind of a bind with him, but I still feel there's more to tell about his way of thinking, and the past plays a role in it, imho. However, this episode did make me think they aren't going the cliched "love redeems" plot that many viewers were so afraid of, so there's that.

[ChelseaNH]

I haven't seen any real indications of remorse, and his thought processes all seem geared toward getting what he wants rather than anything selfless, so he's not on the road to redemption yet.

[KittenPokerCheater]

I think I've seen some remorse in Grant this season.  For me, I won't believe he's sincere until we see how he behaves when he's not incarcerated.  I'd like it if they keep the actor around- I like his energy with Coulson and Fitz and May. 

 

Just like Fitz is different from last season, so is Grant.  I hope that someday we get more scenes between the two of them.

[kitlee625]

Well they've already indicated that he's going to continue his fixation with Skye. His last words to Coulson are that he is going to keep is promise to Skye - his promise being that he will bring her to her father even though she doesn't want to meet him and thinks of him as a monster. I think his motivation goes back to what Raina said last season about them being monsters together. It also fits with him saying to Skye in 2x01 that he has accepted who he is. (Presumably echoing his conversation with Raina in 1x22 when she asks him if he's a monster as Skye thinks he is.)

[KatWay]

I think he's still totally delusional in a way, though different than when he was with Hydra. He seems to have shifted his allegiance from Garrett to Skye, sort of, because it's not about ideology for him, but about someone he can latch onto, but he still doesn't understand why they look at him like a monster. To him, his actions seem regrettable but also justified, because he still doesn't feel like he did something totally wrong. That he was on the wrong side, yes, but he's still not acknowledging his own responsibility, because to him, he has none. He was a soldier following the wrong side and to him, that's not as monstrous as SHIELD is now making him out to be.

 

I find that very interesting. I wonder if there will be a shift at some point - if the show wants to go down the redemption route, there'll have to be a time where he realises what he did and snaps out of this self-protective "I only did what I was told/had to do" stance. Or, given how screwed up he is, he might never realise that and his delusions could grow worse.

 

In the whole "Who's lying" case of Grant versus Christian, it could really go either way IMO - either Ward is even more delusional than we thought if he made himself believe those flashbacks, or he was abused as a kid (either of which would be consistent with his characterisation). The thing that makes me not believe Christian's account of Ward always being a psychopath in training is the flashbacks with the dog - we don't know if Ward shot it or not, but even if he did, he hesitated, he clearly didn't want to and Garrett seemed to think he had overcome some emotional weakness at some point. A psychopath probably wouldn't have cared that much about a dog, lone companion or not. When we saw Ward kill people, except for the finale, where he seemed really unhinged, he had a very cold demeanour, he didn't seem to get pleasure from it, he just matter-of-factly did it. That would be more consistent with the brainwashed soldier persona than a true psychopathic nature. I mean, it could still go either way, but I'm leaning towards Ward not lying. Which I hope is true - I think this twisted, screwed up Ward is far more interesting, be it as an eventual villain or eventual uneasy ally or whatever they have planned, than if they just went down the "another moustache twirling evil guy" route with him (as they, kind of lamely, did with Garrett).

[shrewd.buddha]

Maybe Ward has a split personality (or whatever they are calling it these days). That would explain why Coulson and the others never saw signs in the beginning.

It would also help explain the flashbacks -- which are problematic -- because I don't remember the flashbacks as being a story told by Ward to Skye or anyone else. The flashbacks appeared to be unbiased footage of Ward's memories, or actual events. 

 

When Ward and his brother talk -- it could be all lies. But the flashbacks about the well or the dog did not appear to be personal accounts of the past. 

Edited November 5, 2014 by shrewd.buddha

[FurryFury]

No, any kind of split personality would be a cop-out. I'm with KatWay, the thing I want is for the show to really explore and explain Ward's character and the way he thinks. However, I doubt I'll ever get it - by this point, it's clear the showrunners simply aren't that good when it comes to character exploration.

Edited November 5, 2014 by FurryFury

[Traveller519]

Ward on the Run could be a lot of fun. I don't want him in every episode. But as a background wild card the team needs to know and worry about would be interesting.

 

Secret Hope:

We get to see him running from Ultron right before Avengers 2.

[MostlyC]

Bringing this over from the episode thread:  I think TPTB left the whole "did Grant shoot his dog or not?" purposely ambiguous.  

 

Grant says he didn't shoot the dog (iirc).  I think the actor has made the choice that he didn't shoot the dog.  

 

I think he didn't shoot the dog because he didn't shoot Fitz and Simmons, as ordered (not that what he did was much better).  I think Garret shot the dog, because Garret was determined to make Grant loyal to no one but Garret, and the dog was a liability (as, eventually, his feelings for skye, fitz and simmons were).  

 

I feel like we'll never actually know.

[FurryFury]

I agree it was ambiguous. As for the actor thinking he hasn't, humanising their characters is a common choice for actors playing villains. I mean, he's still not as far gone as Lana Parilla (Once Upon A Time), who once called her character's relationship with a guy she had magically raped for years "cute and flirty" or something like that.

 

Actually, I still feel like the writers haven't decided completely what to do with Ward. It's hard to imagine him ever being anything other than a villain, though. Not after everything that the other characters have said to him.

Edited November 16, 2014 by FurryFury