A Case Of The Mondays: Vent Your Work Spleen Here

[chocolatine]

4 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

It’s just hard trying to sell yourself as a candidate for a job. I want the experience but it feels like nobody will give me a chance.

I completely agree, it is hard. From the hiring manager perspective, our goal is to minimize risk by hiring the candidate who we're most confident will be able to do the job well (because our own jobs will be on the line if we don't). So, in the interview, we are looking for specific examples of the candidate's past experience that are applicable to the role we're trying to fill. I have hired people in the past who didn't have much experience or came from a different industry, but only because they showed me that they understood the challenges of the job and could give examples of having handled similar challenges in the past, even if it was in a different role or environment (e.g. academic vs. corporate). Statements like "I'm a hard worker/fast learner/team player" are generic and don't tell your interviewer anything about why *you* are a good fit for *that* job.

Another thing to consider is to make sure you are applying for the right level of the job. For example, in the tech industry, the bar for lead software engineers is extremely high, so even very good engineers often don't make the cut. Whereas for senior software engineers, the requirements are not as rigorous, so we are much more likely to hire a candidate who's light on experience as long as they can demonstrate the necessary skills.

[DearEvette]

38 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

It’s just hard trying to sell yourself as a candidate for a job. I want the experience but it feels like nobody will give me a chance.

Just to piggyback on the excellent advice that  @chocolatine has already given...

I have been on search committees and hiring teams in the higher educational sector for various positions from basic clerical positions, to managers, to technical team leaders all the way up to Provosts and tenure track faculty for over 20 years.

For administrative positions,  experience will almost always give the candidate a leg up.  But, what has impressed me the most over the years is when a candidate can give concrete examples about how they applied a skill set necessary for the job we are interviewing for even if it was in an area completely different from ours.

For instance, we were interviewing for a data analyst for my team.  This person would be reporting directly to my boss, but I was the team lead.  The job required the person to work heavily with end users from different departments  to get them the data they needed to make whatever decisions they needed for their division.  With the understanding that no all end users are created the same.  Some can manipulate their own data, some can barely sort an excel spreadsheet.

One of the applicants was an internal who we know had experience working with different users.  This person had a horrible interview because they did what I liked to call 'coasting on pretty'  They knew that we knew that had the experience and the internal institutional knowledge so their learning curve wasn't going to be there.  But their answers to our questions were  very surface and consists of 'Yeah, I can do that.'

But another applicant, the person we eventually hired, was an external who worked in a hospital lab (so very different from a University.) and she had some really great answers.  I remember one of our questions was about how would you go about adjusting your approach when working with constituents who had wildly variant knowledge or skills in using the data and reporting tools.  And her answer was great.  She said that every person who asks for data wants that data to tell a story.  So her job was to work with them, ask questions, listen to them to understand what story they wanted their data to tell.  And in asking questions, she could assess what tools were best used to tell that story and how she could help them feel comfortable in using it and interpreting their own data.  She would also be available for training and follow up if necessary.  It was the answer that cemented her for me.  She understood through our questions and through the job posting that she'd be working with a wide array of end users who needed to use information.  So all of her answers were tailored to how she could best help the end user. 

So my advice is to get a sense of what aspects of the job are the most important to the interviewers. A lot of time they have a very specific idea of what gap they need for the person fill and they will clue you in even as they ask questions.  Sometimes it might be a case where in your intro you ask the first question -- what is the most important thing about this job the candidate needs to know to be successful in it.   Sometimes it can be illuminating to find out where they are coming from first.

[Browncoat]

31 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

One of the applicants was an internal who we know had experience working with different users.  This person had a horrible interview because they did what I liked to call 'coasting on pretty'  They knew that we knew that had the experience and the internal institutional knowledge so their learning curve wasn't going to be there.  But their answers to our questions were  very surface and consists of 'Yeah, I can do that.'

I had a similar experience with an internal candidate.  We warned him at the start of the interview that he needed to treat it as though we were total strangers who knew nothing of his work (and in fact, a couple of the hiring committee members truly didn't know anything about his work).  He was ill-prepared, and said, "Well, you know what I've done" at least once.  It was simultaneously infuriating and disappointing.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh yeah. I remember one of the questions I loathed the most was "what is your least favorite task" or something along those lines. I turned it around and told them that I don't think of it as least favorite (or whatever the phrase was), but saw it as challenging and then provided an example of how I resolved the problem without having to go to my supervising attorneys. Because that's what my role is.

Now, I didn't get that job because I was conflicted out. Dammit. But in hindsight, a blessing because a few years later, the firm was hit with scandals of commingling client funds and some higher up partners involved in some other shenanigans. 

But like @chocolatine and @DearEvette stated, if you can provide examples of how you did x and y which could apply to the position you're seeking, it helps.

Edited June 3, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[Cloud9Shopper]

18 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

It’s just hard trying to sell yourself as a candidate for a job. I want the experience but it feels like nobody will give me a chance.

Same. My current department claimed there was a hiring freeze and then I found out they were bringing in two instructional designers from the outside. I wasn’t mad that there was a hiring freeze per se but it really felt like I had been lied to, especially since my management knows I’ve been in an ID program for a year now, shown off my work in team meetings, and do ID volunteer work. I didn’t even know they were planning to interview and hire. Didn’t get a chance to throw my name in at all. Both outside hires have several years of teaching experience, which sucks even more because a lot of teachers are trying to get ID jobs right now and the market is so flooded. 

Needless to say I accelerated my job search. Several people have left the department within the last year, and there have been some gripes about low pay and lack of professional growth on employee surveys, so I don’t think I’m the only one tired of their nonsense. 

[chocolatine]

6 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

My current department claimed there was a hiring freeze and then I found out they were bringing in two instructional designers from the outside. I wasn’t mad that there was a hiring freeze per se but it really felt like I had been lied to, especially since my management knows I’ve been in an ID program for a year now, shown off my work in team meetings, and do ID volunteer work. I didn’t even know they were planning to interview and hire. Didn’t get a chance to throw my name in at all. Both outside hires have several years of teaching experience, which sucks even more because a lot of teachers are trying to get ID jobs right now and the market is so flooded.

Is there anyone involved in the hiring from whom you could get honest feedback as to why you're not being considered? Is it just your lack of experience, or is there anything else that disqualifies you, maybe some behaviors you're not aware of that are making you come across as less qualified than you are? Sometimes it's just a preconceived notion the hiring manager has of you that may not be true/fair, but it could also be something that you're doing/not doing, so having that feedback would be very valuable for your job search.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I had my skip level meeting (meeting with boss’s boss) today and mentioned being left out of the loop on job openings. She said she would check with one of the other team managers about what I would have to do to get in the interview pool, as I wasn’t even included or told they were planning to hire, and Boss’s Boss also wasn’t aware they were filling jobs. I had been under the impression they had put jobs on hold and would have applied if I had found out they were hiring after all. She even told me I had the best laid plan for development out of anyone she’s talked to. 

But she also told me that she can’t guarantee any future opportunities and admitted she doesn’t want to lose me on my current team. (I guess that they don’t get they eventually will if they keep waffling.) 

I am so tired of this flakiness. I’m getting the impression that they don’t want me to leave my current team. The other person they hired also has some years of experience which I have no way of getting if no one hires me. I am just done chasing everyone for feedback when it’s clear nobody really cares. I’m going to just keep interviewing….

Besides I have been there three years now. I don’t think I should have to keep waiting and crossing my fingers and chasing people when I have asked for answers and a path multiple times already. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Cloud9Shopper

[theredhead77]

2 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

she doesn’t want to lose me on my current team.

You have your answer. They want you where you are. If you don't want to do your position anymore then your option is to move on. If you want to continue to do what you do at a higher level ask what the succession plan is for this position.

Edit to add this image I just saw on LinkedIn. I think it's pretty true.

Edited June 6, 2022 by theredhead77

[Bookish Jen]

It's total crunch time at work, and several managers and supervisors are taking vacation.

[magicdog]

I think I may know why HR recruitment is so bad:  it's run by people like this woman.

Notice the crazy eyes!

[Bookish Jen]

8 hours ago, magicdog said:

I think I may know why HR recruitment is so bad:  it's run by people like this woman.

Notice the crazy eyes!

I'm not a fan of HR and recruiters. Several years ago I was interviewed for a copywriting position at a local food distribution company. I was interviewed by two people-the head of HR and the woman who would have been my manager. The woman manager was absolutely delightful. She seemed very interested in bringing me on. However, the HR person was an absolute nightmare. I felt like I was being interrogated for some horrific crime.

Years later I was gaslighted at another copywriting job by my immediate boss and the head of HR. They really fucked me over.

And I can't even begin to count the amount of recruiters who have ghosted me.

[bilgistic]

I just got fired.

[MargeGunderson]

@bilgistic, I’m sorry, that really sucks.

[Bookish Jen]

1 hour ago, bilgistic said:

I just got fired.

I'm so sorry. This is horrible. Being fired sucks. I hope you find a new job more to your liking.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I’m sorry @bilgistic. I’ve been fired a few times in my career. Even when I was relieved in retrospect, it’s never fun getting the news. 

[bilgistic]

Thanks, y'all. I've not fully processed it yet. I was given a bullshit reason for it ("not enough work"), but I know it's because my gaslighting monster of a boss wanted me gone.

I had a text interview at 11 (who knew text interviews were a thing?) that went really well. It's a remote editor position. I'll find out more tomorrow. I also got a call about a remote marketing assistant job for which I'd applied.

I'd started looking for a new job over the weekend because I'd officially decided I was done being abused. She refused to take accountability once again for something, telling me I "didn't communicate" when I had proof in our chat that I did. That was a constant pattern, and I was feeling crazy, which is a symptom of being gaslighted.

She and that whole company can go fuck themselves.

Oh, and my agency rep called me a whole 30 minutes after I got home and asked me if I could drive to their office across the county to drop off my monitor and keyboard. Fuck you. Send me a FedEx label.

Edited June 8, 2022 by bilgistic

[Mondrianyone]

31 minutes ago, bilgistic said:

Fuck you. Send me a FedEx label.

This needs to go on a T-shirt.

I'm sorry, @bilgistic. It sucks to be fired. But just remember, it's an ill wind that blows no one any good. You're freed up to go someplace better now.

[bilgistic]

I got them to send me FedEx labels, which is exactly what they should do since they aren't paying me for my 1) mileage to and from the bank in May, or 2) my unused vacation. That's "part of my severance." No, you cheap asshole, it's not, but because I'm a contractor with a shitass agency that doesn't back me up, I have no recourse.

Oh, and there's "not enough work," but the CFO's daughter is "interning" this summer.

@magicdog, if I send you some money, will you send poop?😂

[magicdog]

1 hour ago, bilgistic said:

@magicdog, if I send you some money, will you send poop?😂

I'd be delighted, but why deprive you of the fantastic opportunity to do it yourself???

The site is legit and you can send it anonymously.  Prices are pretty reasonable too:

Send the poop!!

I'm looking forward to sending some Bitcheroo's way in the near future!!

Seriously though, I'm sorry you lost your job but think of it as a new opportunity.  Can you at least file for unemployment?  

[bilgistic]

I just finished filing for unemployment. I'm exhausted. I want to do something nice for myself to relax like get a facial, but of course that costs money, which I obviously need to not be spending frivolously now, not that I ever do. I have a couple months of savings now, but a chunk of it will be going to pay off the cat food panic-buying.

I was just thinking the other day about how when I worked at the grocery store, I couldn't afford anything because I was making so little money. Like, if I went to Taco Bell, it was a budget-buster. And how it felt nice not to have to live like that now. OH WELL

[Bookish Jen]

bilgistic, I totally feel for you. I was out of work for a very long time (over three years). I thought I would never work again. I'm still traumatized over it.

[bilgistic]

I've been there, too. I freelanced between from 2009 to 2014 right after the recession hit and I was terminated from my commercial real estate job. I made less than $10,000 a year. I finally found another job but by then had lost my condo. What a life I've had.

But I'm RESILIENT!🙃

[Bookish Jen]

9 minutes ago, bilgistic said:

I've been there, too. I freelanced between from 2009 to 2014 right after the recession hit and I was terminated from my commercial real estate job. I made less than $10,000 a year. I finally found another job but by then had lost my condo. What a life I've had.

But I'm RESILIENT!🙃

But being resilient is exhausting.

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, Bookish Jen said:

bilgistic, I totally feel for you. I was out of work for a very long time (over three years). I thought I would never work again. I'm still traumatized over it.

Same. Up until I got this new job, I'd been out of work for a few years, too, taking temp stuff where I could. It was very frustrating indeed - job hunting fucking sucks. 

Adding to the sympathies, @bilgistic, I'm so sorry about your job. I'm glad you've got a couple potential new options lined up, though - good luck with that, hope you get some good news on that front as soon as possible!

[supposebly]

10 hours ago, bilgistic said:

I just got fired.

I'm so sorry. I wish you had had the chance to quit with a new job at hand. However, while it will suck going on the job hunt again, I'm also glad you're rid of that gaslighting b**** for good. That wasn't good for your mental health at all.

Good luck with the job search! Crossing my fingers!

[Cloud9Shopper]

I have a second interview tomorrow for a tech sales job (yay!) and have to do a role play as part of the interview. I am a bit nervous for it but the HR rep who did the phone screen said the sales manager knows I won’t know everything about the product and I don’t have to memorize a script. So that helps. I guess I’m nervous because it’s a new exercise for me. I have to admit sometimes I hate the idea of change even though I need it right now. I know I won’t get there if I don’t at least try to take some risks so I will do my best in the role play, and if the sales manager doesn’t think I do a good job then so be it.

My department at Current Employer is continuing to lose people. I feel like someone resigns every week anymore. I knew one coworker, A, was leaving on Friday, but then today I got a virtual happy hours invite that mentioned saying goodbye to A and another coworker, B. I really feel like I’m on a sinking ship morale wise watching all these people leave, and it makes me wonder why they chose to go. Maybe I’m not as alone as I think I’m my opinions of management and the department these days.

I feel weirdly empowered, though, to realize that Current Employer doesn’t value me. I don’t want to work somewhere that tells me I’m doing good work but refuses to help me plan growth. Plus I know it’ll be their loss the day I tell my boss I put in my notice and they panic about what they can do to keep me and I can say…nothing. 

[chocolatine]

I was wrongfully terminated from my last job in the fall of 2020, and even though it was very upsetting, I was mostly relieved not to have to spend any more time in that toxic environment. It took me several months of job hunting while simultaneously going through a stressful mediation with the former employer, but I ended up finding a new job that I love *and* winning a nice settlement for the wrongful termination. Still, the previous job did such a number on me that it took me several more months to mentally get over everything that happened. I hesitate to compare it to the PTSD that service members or trauma victims experience, but it felt a little bit like that.

[Bookish Jen]

Just found out another person has quit.

[MargeGunderson]

@Cloud9Shopper, good luck with the interview tomorrow! 

[Cloud9Shopper]

37 minutes ago, Bookish Jen said:

Just found out another person has quit.

I feel like you and I work at the same place LOL. People have been quitting my department almost constantly for about a year now.  

[bilgistic]

I'm still working on the details, but I've been offered a new job!🤯 It's a fully remote, full-time editing position through an agency but permanent/not contract. I don't know much else yet until I start training, which is pretty typical of agencies. They are sending all the equipment. It's also a huge pay increase from what I was making yesterday.🙃

The only other time I've gotten a new job this fast was when I was working at Media Play while in college, and I was "laid off" after they hired too many people to get the store ready to open and then didn't have the business to support the staff after opening. I went to the movie theater next door and got a new job.

What even is my life! I'm EXHAUSTED!

[Moose135]

Congratulations,  @bilgistic! That's wonderful news. Hope it all works out for you!

[Mondrianyone]

Jeez, what took you so long?!?!?

That's great! Fingers crossed it all comes together. 

[supposebly]

2 hours ago, bilgistic said:

I'm still working on the details, but I've been offered a new job!

Congratulations! That's awesome!!!!!! My finger crossing worked! 😉

It sounds soo much better for you. Never even mind the pay increase!

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, bilgistic said:

I'm still working on the details, but I've been offered a new job!🤯

CONGRATS!!!!!

[emma675]

Congrats, @bilgistic! Once that first paycheck comes in, I hope you'll treat yourself to that facial you put off since the jackass company let you go yesterday. 

[Bastet]

Wow - fully remote, editing work, and a big bump in salary?  It sounds like you are finally catching a break, @bilgistic -- congratulations!!   

[isalicat]

17 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I have a second interview tomorrow for a tech sales job (yay!) and have to do a role play as part of the interview. I am a bit nervous for it but the HR rep who did the phone screen said the sales manager knows I won’t know everything about the product and I don’t have to memorize a script. So that helps. I guess I’m nervous because it’s a new exercise for me. I have to admit sometimes I hate the idea of change even though I need it right now. I know I won’t get there if I don’t at least try to take some risks so I will do my best in the role play, and if the sales manager doesn’t think I do a good job then so be it.

Obviously I don't know any details, but please! If you are offered this job ask a lot of hard questions about compensation. As in, is there a salary in addition to sales-based commission, and if you are compensated with commission how does that work *exactly*? What are their expectations as far as a new person who has not done this and what are their expectations down the line (after 6 months, after one year, etc.). What are the opportunities for advancement? I think it is crucially important to know all this up front; my son, after graduating college, wound up in a couple of tech sales jobs that turned out to be entirely commissioned based which can be a real recipe for starving to death while you are trying to learn the job and close some deals. Fortunately he figured out what was going on and moved into another field fairly quickly.

[bilgistic]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

Wow - fully remote, editing work, and a big bump in salary?  It sounds like you are finally catching a break, @bilgistic -- congratulations!!   

I know...I'm fully waiting for an anvil to fall on my head.

[MargeGunderson]

19 minutes ago, bilgistic said:

I know...I'm fully waiting for an anvil to fall on my head.

No, that’s just the adage “good things come in threes” playing out in real life. You’re safe!

[theredhead77]

3 hours ago, isalicat said:

Obviously I don't know any details, but please! If you are offered this job ask a lot of hard questions about compensation. As in, is there a salary in addition to sales-based commission, and if you are compensated with commission how does that work *exactly*? What are their expectations as far as a new person who has not done this and what are their expectations down the line (after 6 months, after one year, etc.). What are the opportunities for advancement? I think it is crucially important to know all this up front; my son, after graduating college, wound up in a couple of tech sales jobs that turned out to be entirely commissioned based which can be a real recipe for starving to death while you are trying to learn the job and close some deals. Fortunately he figured out what was going on and moved into another field fairly quickly.

^^^ @Cloud9Shopperplease read, read, re-read, and read all of this, again. Sales positions can be great, or it can be a complete scam. I suggest stopping by the antiMLM Reddit to make sure the company you are interviewing with isn't an MLM in disguise. 

My company is an international Fortune rated company and they do hire sales people without experience, but they are typically college grads who are put through an intensive trainee program, or people with years of industry experience but no sales experience.

Also think about how this would align with what you want from your career. I hope this is a great opportunity for you, but you're miserable in your current position and desperate for a new one. Sketchy companies prey people in your situation. Don't let a carrot tempt you away and derail your long-term plans for a temporary fix.

Edited June 10, 2022 by theredhead77

[bilgistic]

WELP, the shoe hath dropped. I was scammed.

I have to take a couple days to catch my breath.

[theredhead77]

46 minutes ago, bilgistic said:

WELP, the shoe hath dropped. I was scammed.

I have to take a couple days to catch my breath.

That sucks. Hopefully you didn't lose much money.

[bilgistic]

I didn't lose any money—just what shred of dignity I had left. I put a few odd details together and figured out they didn't fit.

I am beyond exhausted.

[isalicat]

1 hour ago, bilgistic said:

I didn't lose any money—just what shred of dignity I had left. I put a few odd details together and figured out they didn't fit.

I am beyond exhausted.

Breathe!

Your self worth and dignity has squat to do with your job or lack of one. You are a unique and essential person who has love all around her (ask your cats for a start - you know you are their anchor in the life storm).

Not to worry, you do have a community here and if you need anything specific in terms of assistance, just reach out. And in the meantime, as I endlessly tell people - copy your animal pets. Take a nap. A long refreshing nap. Everything can wait.

[Bookish Jen]

10 hours ago, bilgistic said:

WELP, the shoe hath dropped. I was scammed.

I have to take a couple days to catch my breath.

This is horrible. I feel so bad for you. You don't deserve this shit.

[supposebly]

18 hours ago, bilgistic said:

WELP, the shoe hath dropped. I was scammed.

Oh no! I'm so sorry about that! 

[Cloud9Shopper]

Up and down start to the week.

Down: I got a rejection from one of the tech sales jobs I interviewed for last week. I had thought my round with the hiring manager went well. She said during the role play I handled a part well that trips other candidates up. She also mentioned when she would like to set a start date and made it sound as if I was going to the next round to meet the team. So I don’t know what changed between her seeming to like me a few days ago and getting rejected today.

I am considering paying a career coach or finding someone who hires in my areas of interest to do a mock interview with me. (I don’t want to work with someone who hires engineers or MBA candidates when I’m not in that sphere.) There has to be something wrong to still be looking after nine months and have no offers when a lot of my now former colleagues and others I’m connected to are getting hired, and my company won’t interview me, let alone make a plan with me, for promotion. 

These jobs are in SaaS (software as a service) so yes they pay base plus commission and are not MLMs. I’m applying to them; they are not approaching me. (I wish I knew what it was like to be getting tons of recruiter messages and have my pick of offers, believe me.)

Up: I got contacted today to set up another initial interview with a different company for a learning and development coordinator role. This is a hybrid job in a big city I’m in commuting distance to by bus so hopefully it being hybrid will be a little less competitive when so many others want remote only. (Although the company will consider remote candidates.) 

I also have to fill out my self appraisal for a performance meeting with my boss (don’t worry; they’re company-wide so all us suckers have to do them) and I’m finding that I just don’t care to set goals anymore when my management just doesn’t support me. 

[theredhead77]

2 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

There has to be something wrong to still be looking after nine months and have no offers when a lot of my now former colleagues and others I’m connected to are getting hired,

It's a really tough market. I shared upthread I've been looking for a year and a half, over 100 applications out in my field. There are so many qualified and talented candidates in the pool it's just a numbers game.

[Cloud9Shopper]

8 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

It's a really tough market. I shared upthread I've been looking for a year and a half, over 100 applications out in my field. There are so many qualified and talented candidates in the pool it's just a numbers game.

It’s really sad how hard it’s gotten. I think there needs to be a better balance, where employees should of course do everything they can to be strong candidates, but some employers are way too picky and drag things out unnecessarily. I saw a posting for an entry level job the other day that required five interviews: recruiter call, two “discovery interviews,” a case study and a “culture fit” interview. For an entry level position, that process should be cut in half. I don’t know how anyone gets through so many hoops. Most of us are not trying to be CEOs or top trauma surgeons or FBI agents where you’d want that many conversations. 

This article from last year is interesting and discusses how more and more companies want longer interview processes. The candidate they interviewed for the article went through three rounds with a company only to be told they wanted six more interviews and had no idea when they’d make a decision. It’s getting beyond out of hand and no wonder some employers complain they can’t find anyone. 
 

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210727-the-rise-of-never-ending-job-interviews