Lorelai and Luke

[Smad]

There have been a lot of posts about lack of physical contact and "I love you's" but that was the mandate from ASP. I often wondered what kind of home life she had to refuse to allow that.  It made the relationship appear way more distant that we would have liked or believed in. I blame it on the stilted way she portrayed them as a couple.

But here is the thing where it gets truely puzzling for me. ASP seems to think of 'hands-off' only in romantic relationships. Prior to L/L getting together Lorelai was constantly all over Luke. And most of the time it was just little things. She would slap his forearm or chest or pat him on the shoulder. She was constantly touching him. As soon as S5 started except for the first 3 episodes all of that was gone (that made sense how?), along with their banter most of the time (hate you ASP), their meaningful conversations (slaps Amy with her own top hat) and all the things as to why I wanted them together. She took it all away and what little was left got destroyed with soap tropes, caricature elder Gilmores, class differences portrayed in a downright offending way (Luke wearing jeans to dinner with Emily, really ASP?), dumbing down of characters along with character assasinations and Chris shaped plot devices.

[Kohola3]

ASP must have really, really hated us.  Or thought we were too dumb to notice the emotional 180 on many of the characters.

[Taryn74]

"Squee on this, bitches."

 

That's what I always come back to, LOL.

[FictionLover]

Stars Hollow was such a big part of the show's success and that town was Luke and Lorelai's "little corner of the world". When Christopher was living there he was like a fish out of water. I believe that is another reason why so many are L/L shippers.

[alexa]

I am just revisiting the Luke and Lorelai break up at the end of Season 6/beginning of Season 7.  Which depresses me, because I like their relationship.  I do get why the break up happens, and I can even understand Lorelai's stupid move to sleep with Christopher given her emotional state.  But what I don't understand is why Christopher really thought the one night was more to her when he had to have known that Lorelai and Luke were a couple, and obviously something had gone wrong (for her to be there).  I realize Lorelai and Christopher will get together soon, but there is no way he can think she doesn't have confusion about her previous relationship given it just ended.

[Kohola3]

I realize Lorelai and Christopher will get together soon, but there is no way he can think she doesn't have confusion about her previous relationship given it just ended.

 

He doesn't care.  He is always quick to insert his needs into any situation where Lorelai is indecisive or vulnerable.  The night his parents attack her, they have sex and then the next day he proposes.  His sense of timing is always what's in it for him.

[Melancholy]

He doesn't care.  He is always quick to insert his needs into any situation where Lorelai is indecisive or vulnerable.  The night his parents attack her, they have sex and then the next day he proposes.  His sense of timing is always what's in it for him.

 

Right, when it was about Getting Teh Sex and starting the romance with the big first date and whirlwind trip and freshness of it, Christopher blew right past the fact that he was rebounding WITHIN THE HOUR of a serious romance where Lorelai and Luke were engaged. Even though Lorelai looked like a tragic wreck after their first night together.

 

When it was about settling down and dealing with actual problems like Richard's illness or adjusting to Stars Hallow life, suddenly Christopher was totally pre-occupied on whether Lorelai was really, really, REALLY past Luke because he can't take being a rebound. 

[LegalParrot81]

 

I realize Lorelai and Christopher will get together soon, but there is no way he can think she doesn't have confusion about her previous relationship given it just ended.

 

Christopher's too self absorbed for that.  He's proven it over and over again.  First at Richard and Emily's faux wedding, yelling at Luke about how he and Lorelai were meant to be together and then looking completely put out when Lorelai told him that she was going to look for Luke or in Emily & Richard's home, after he found out Sherry was pregnant and he's ranting at Lorelai, even after Lorelai asks him if Sherry's still pregnant, if they're still together, if they're going to get married. 

 

He can't fathom that Lorelai would ever really want anyone but him.

[dustylil]

then looking completely put out when Lorelai told him that she was going to look for Luke or in Emily & Richard's home, after he found out Sherry was pregnant and he's ranting at Lorelai, even after Lorelai asks him if Sherry's still pregnant, if they're still together, if they're going to get married

 

As I understood it, his plan was to marry Sherry and for Lorelai to be his side piece. Very classy, Christopher.

[Melancholy]

I love that Haunted Leg has these similar, staccato, "cross-examine the deluded lovah who objects to the reality that they're attached and don't want to change their attachment but Jess = Lorelai and Rory = Christopher.

 

CHRISTOPHER: I didn’t want things to turn out this way!

LORELAI: But they did turn out this way!

CHRISTOPHER: But I didn’t want that!

LORELAI: Christopher, is Sherry still pregnant?

CHRISTOPHER: Of course she is.

LORELAI: Are you still with her?

CHRISTOPHER: Yes.

LORELAI: Are you gonna marry her?

CHRISTOPHER: Yes.

LORELAI: Then, honey, we are where we are! Accept it.

 

--------------------------------

 

JESS: I'm sorry, did I hear from you at all this summer? Did I just happen to miss the thousands of phone calls you made to me, or did the postman happen to lose all those letters you wrote to me? You kiss me, you tell me not to say anything. . .very flattering, by the way. You go off to Washington. . . then nothing. Then you come back here all put out because I didn't just sit around and wait for you like Dean would've done? And yeah, what about Dean? Are you still with him? 'Cause last time I checked, you were, and I haven't heard anything to the contrary. Plus, the two of you walking around the other day like some damn Andy Hardy movie. Seemed to me like you’re still pretty together. I half expected you to break into a barn and put on a show.

RORY: When did you see me with Dean?

JESS: At that stupid summer insanity plea the town put on.

RORY: Oh, I’m surprised you could see anything with Shane’s head plastered to your face.

JESS: You didn’t answer me.

RORY: About what?

JESS: Did you call me at all?

RORY: No.

JESS: Did you send me a letter?

RORY: No.

JESS: Postcard?

RORY: No.

JESS: Smoke signal?

RORY: Stop.

JESS: A nice fruit basket?

RORY: Enough!

JESS: Are you still with Dean? Come on, Rory, yes or no – are you still with Dean?

RORY: Yes, I’m still with Dean, yes!

JESS: Glad to hear it.

RORY: Glad to tell you.

[dustylil]

At least Dean was of aware of the threat to his relationship that Jess provided. I don't think Sherry even knew about Christopher's fling with Lorelai. Let alone his wish to have the mother of his first child be his mistress while married to the woman who was expecting his second.

[txhorns79]

As I understood it, his plan was to marry Sherry and for Lorelai to be his side piece. Very classy, Christopher.

 

When did Christopher suggest that he wanted Lorelai to be his mistress?  I read the scenes between them as Christopher being uncertain of what he really wanted, and throwing his uncertainty at Lorelai to see how she would react.   

[LegalParrot81]

I don't know if I'd say mistress is the correct word, because as arrogant as Christopher was about himself and the hold he supposedly had on Lorelai, he knew Lorelai well enough to know that that would not even be an option.  My interpretation of the exchange at the Gilmore's was Christopher trying to find a way to get Lorelai to tell him that if things inevitably didn't work with Sherry, she'd be sitting in a chair somewhere, pining for him until his grand return.

[Melancholy]

When did Christopher suggest that he wanted Lorelai to be his mistress?  I read the scenes between them as Christopher being uncertain of what he really wanted, and throwing his uncertainty at Lorelai to see how she would react.   

 

That's how I saw it. I don't think Christopher would bellow in The Fancy Schmancy Gilmore Foyer to achieve his intent to make Lorelai his side-piece. There's a gripping Don Draperesque audacity to that type of crazy that Christopher's not passionate or calculated enough to have. Christopher just wanted to whine that he doesn't like how things are and beyond that, he didn't have a Plan B and THAT'S what Lorelai nailed him for. He was just there to whine and kvetch 

 

If anything, I think Christopher just had hazy visions of Lorelai being all, "Oh, baby, I feel bad too, I'm so lonely without you" with a hug because Christopher wanted the emotional validation and soothing for now. Past that, I think it'd be totally in character for Christopher to try to turn the hug into a make-out session and the make-out session into a one night stand and that into an affair out of just a weak-willed, "But Lorelai's here." And given that I feel that way about Christopher, I'll somewhat agree that there's something very potentially or even actually disrespectful to Sherri about Chris's actions- even though I don't believe for a second that Christopher walked over with a plan to make Lorelai his mistress.

[dustylil]

I'll somewhat agree that there's something very potentially or even actually disrespectful to Sherri about Chris's actions

 

I vote for actually disrespectful.  After all, the incident at the senior Gilmores' home took place some months after Christopher had "returned" to Sherry, not in the immediate emotionally tumultuous aftermath of   learning of the unexpected pregnancy. It was also  after he made forty-five telephone calls to Lorelai - all unreturned.

 

In any event, further discussion of this specific topic should likely go to another thread.

Edited December 16, 2015 by dustylil

[txhorns79]

My interpretation of the exchange at the Gilmore's was Christopher trying to find a way to get Lorelai to tell him that if things inevitably didn't work with Sherry, she'd be sitting in a chair somewhere, pining for him until his grand return.

 

I think that nails it.  Christopher seemed to think he and she were lifelines for each other.  The idea certainly reared its head during Wedding Bell Blues when Christopher was trying to break up Luke and Lorelai.  

 

 

In any event, further discussion of this specific topic should likely go to another thread.

 

Weren't you the one who started this discussion with your comment about Chris wanting Lorelai to be his mistress?  LOL.

[amensisterfriend]

So which 5-7ish episodes would you guys say showcase the best L/L chemistry?! (Chemistry is obviously subjective, so everyone's opinions may very well differ here!) Since as many of you know I shipped them before they got together and felt like they writing, directing, acting etc. combined to make them a lot less compatible, attracted to each other and connected than they could have been while they were actually together, it won't be too surprising to see that my choices hail from the beginning seasons :)  

 

In chronological order: 

 

1) Forgiveness and Stuff...stop reading this and just watch the procession, okay? ;) 

 

2) Double Date---the looks, the dialogue, the totally getting each other, the way they're, like, THIS close to actually agreeing to go out on their own date before Mrs. Kim bursts in...their chemistry is off the charts in this one! 

 

3) That Damn Donna Reed---If we could pick just one, this might be the one I'd select. There's just such attraction, connection and getting-each-other-ness in this one. I love Luke opening up about his dad and Lorelai's reaction to it. (Juniemomo wrote a stellar fic based on this episode---if you guys haven't read it yet, you're in for a treat!) 

 

...can you tell I've been rewatching S1? Seriously, I find Luke and the Luke/Lorelai dynamic at their very most appealing this first season, so I could actually pick  all S1 episodes for this list, but I'll try to spread the love :)

 

4) Road Trip to Harvard---I get that they have just one real scene here, but it's a classic one for me: We get Luke relieved yet sympathetic re Lorelai breaking up with Max,  Lorelai confiding that she's ready to really pursue her dream of running an inn, and Luke so instinctively and immediately getting why seeing Rory at Harvard was simultaneously thrilling and unsettling. (As you can tell, 'getting each other' is always a big thing for me! I wish we'd seen more of that and less irritated bickering later on.) 

 

5) Secrets and Loans---A weird choice, I know, but I just adore their scenes here, and the one where they're sitting on Lorelai's porch..I just so feel that pesky chemistry there! 

 

6) Dead Uncles and Vegetables---Because lulu brainwashed me into finally loving this one as much as it deserves ;) Seriously, this one highlights how much Lorelai cares for him, and when they're standing next to each other it just somehow looks and feels right 

 

7) The Fundamental Things Apply---The way she looks at him while he's on her couch, the talk about when and how you know when things are right...it's just such a great, subtle but very effective L/L episode for me. 

 

Runners up: Kiss and tell, Rory's Birthday Parties (it always surprises me all over again that they not only have so much chemistry in S1, but that it's blatant enough to be talked about openly by other people), Star Crossed Lovers, Run Away Little Boy, Those Lazy Hazy Crazy Days (come again, Mimi), Scene in a Mall (the infamous writing and sliding scene), Tippecanoe and Taylor Too, Women of Questionable Morals, 21 is the Loneliest Number, LMHYBRO, and (for some weird reason!) Hay Bale Maze :)  I'm looking forward to reading other people's replies! 

[FictionLover]

I agree with all of your favorites but I loved "Let your Balalaikas Ring Out". I loved the tender LL moment when she was melting down about Paul Anka/Rory. I laughed when he asked her what the baster was for and she said it was for Paul Anka in case he needed a drink she could shoot it in his mouth. He just nodded. It showed how much Luke got her.

The whole soccer team storyline was fun too...especially when they were hiding in the truck from the team and the soccer moms.

[Melancholy]

I love their sleigh ride in Bracebridge, since it shows off how well they snark at each other.

 

Luke's turn:

LORELAI: No, it's always different his time of year. It's magical.

LUKE: If you say so, sure. Oh look, there's the magical plumbing supply store where I bought a magical float for my toilet last week.

LORELAI: You disappoint me.

LUKE: Oh look. There's the magical Luke's Diner right underneath the apartment that Jess magically lit by leaving every stinkin' light on.

 

Lorelai's turn to snark:

LUKE: Like last week I discovered the secret of parenting.

LORELAI: You did?

LUKE: Yup.

LORELAI: The secret of parenting?

LUKE: The secret of parenting.

LORELAI: When last week? Last Tuesday?

LUKE: I don't know the exact day.

LORELAI: Tuesday at 5:15, is that when you discovered the secret of parenting?

 

Not to state the obvious, but The Waltz in Last Weeks Fights. Plus, the shared giggles at the Ren-Faire wedding. 

 

These moments mainly stands out for Lorelai over Luke but she announces with such pride and love- "Show them the horoscope" when the town is debating whether they should date.I love LG's tragic but adorable delivery in her dream in Say Something, watching the horoscope scene in black and white on the big screen:

 

LORELAI: Whatcha watching?

LUKE: Something stupid.

[The film shows Lorelai and Luke sitting in her kitchen drinking glasses of champagne, with candles all around.]

LORELAI: That's not stupid.

 

Is it an UO to love Lorelai's dream in Say Something? I think it's just the right kind of artsy. 

[lulu1960]

6) Dead Uncles and Vegetables---Because lulu brainwashed me into finally loving this one as much as it deserves ;) Seriously, this one highlights how much Lorelai cares for him, and when they're standing next to each other it just somehow looks and feels right

 

My work here is done.

 

I think the Bracebridge sleigh ride is one of my favorite scenes too. And the Waltz will never get old for me.

Edited February 5, 2016 by lulu1960

[clack]

I never got a clear idea of what Luke and Lorelai's relationship was in the past.

At one point Lorlai seems unaware that Luke and Rachel had lived together, the implication being that L/L were at best mere acquaintances, but at another point Luke is presented as a close friend of long standing, giving Rory gifts when she was a little girl, etc.

More than just another GG continuity glitch, this confusion affects the viewers' perception of one of the central relationships of the whole show. Is Luke's attraction to Lorelai recent, or does it go back years? Did it affect his relationship with Rachel? And how is Lorelai unaware that Luke has had romantic feelings for her?

[junienmomo]

I never got a clear idea of what Luke and Lorelai's relationship was in the past.

 

Luke indicated that he was attracted from the first time Lorelai came into the diner. The coffee continued to bring her in and they allude to several interactions with Rory that cemented their friendship in the early years.

As marked by the WITS episode, that would indicate they were friends at series start, and in the process of becoming friends in the four years preceding that.

 

The Rachel thing has been rationalized by a) Luke doesn't talk about stuff, and b) It apparently never occurred to Lorelai to ask her good friend what his love life had been like. Add to that the fact that the gossips, who once thought Rachel and Luke were the OTP, changed their minds after Lorelai came along.

 

Beyond that, L/L apparently ran in different social circles in the pre-series four years, so any interim visit by Rachel could have been missed, AS LONG AS you believe that the gossips wouldn't have discussed it in the diner while Lorelai was present. Seeing as a Rachel "I miss having roots and a little Luke nookie" visit tended to be some weeks long, I find that hard to believe. 

[junienmomo]

During their romantic relationship, what kind of love did Lorelai have for Luke? 

 

It's been pounded into our psyche that Luke loved Lorelai, no questions there. 

 

But after a binge-read of Stars Hollow Confessions on tumblr (I don't recommend binging it, as there is a large dose of things people are unhappy about, and it got me all down for a while), I started thinking that maybe Lorelai loved the notion of loving the reliable guy who loved her and catered to her more than loved him the way he loved her.

 

Plot points that bug this currently sad-for-Luke brain include

• She did not react clearly on screen to Luke's all-in speech. Only later when she was on the verge of losing him did she blurt out her all-in speech
• She told Chris at the breakup of their marriage that she wanted him to be the one she wanted. Huh? Sounds like she doesn't even want to love Luke
• I will always love you was for Rory. She only switched it up when he came in. Out of sight, out of love?
• The lack of PDAs or 'I love yous' are not an issue here, see previous rants on ASP's ability to write love
• The lists here in this topic of favorite moments strongly revolve around Luke actions, not Lorelai actions
• A pretty big list of 'do what Lorelai wants, not what Luke wants,' like own a dog, go to town meetings, not go to the cabin, not buy the house he dreamed of his whole life, delay the wedding for six months until Rory's back, but don't delay it for very long after April appears, and more. 
• In the VERY LAST episode, she was still saying that Luke never reciprocated. 

 

Geez. My brain's in a very sad place. Makes me want to go write another post-Bon Voyage fanfic in which Luke asks these questions as well.

I'd better go watch some S1. Or Dead Uncles. Or the best moments of Luke and Jess.

[amensisterfriend]

Well, she eagerly took Luke back, no questions asked, even after he stormed out of her parents' vow renewal ceremony, froze her out completely and had decided without hearing a single word of her explanation that he was going from "all in" to "out of this relationship" for something that wasn't even her fault. She stayed by his side for a long time even after learning that he had initially concealed having a long lost daughter and then shut her out of their lives while most of the rest of CT was able to meet and interact with her. She defended him constantly to parents who, rightly or wrongly, felt Luke was a poor match for her. She reacted patiently and kindly after watching him verbally abuse a harmless elderly woman over the boat issue rather than condemning him. When he stormed out after hearing Christopher's voice on her answering machine---seemingly STILL not getting that Rory's father will have some contact with them---she ran right over and apologized as if she had dome something wrong while he scowled and pouted and gulped down beer. She tolerated his temper tantrums, constant negativity, ridiculous behavior towards Dean in Pippi, embarrassing boorishness in AVV and other episodes, etc. 

 

So despite the relative lack of chemistry, affection, connection, joy etc., and how often these two seemed to annoy and simply not get each other while dating,  I guess we have to conclude that she did love him. I can't imagine why she'd stay with him otherwise. I do agree that Lauren Graham often played her scenes as if she was a lot less than "all in"...more like acutely uncomfortable and moderately repelled by him! 

Edited February 16, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[amensisterfriend]

ETA: FWIW, junie, rewatching S1 really is the best remedy for the Luke/Lorelai blues---even *I* love their chemistry and dynamic for much of that first season and find myself shipping them despite being, er, less than enchanted with what we get later on :) And, as I've said elsewhere, your TDDR-based fanfic is guaranteed to delight disillusioned fans as well! 

[amensisterfriend]

And since apparently I found juniemomo's post too great not to comment on three separate times: 

 

If I were an L/L shipper, I would actually love Lorelai's "you're the one I want to want" to Christopher. As someone who has been on both the giving and receiving end of a very similar speech, I took that to mean "Look, Christopher, I want to love you! You're super into me and eager to please me, we have all this history and a nice, easy compatibility, commonality and rapport, my parents love you (which makes things easier), you're the biological father of my child,  you're my first marriage and I wanted it to be my last. The thing is, I just don't feel what I wish I did, and I don't want to stay with you even though things would be a lot easier right now if I did." And the obvious implication was that she DID have those feelings for Luke. If she didn't "want to want" Luke then, I think that makes perfect sense---after all, she was married to someone else, she and Luke had a painful history and seemed unlikely (from Lorelai's perspective at that moment) to ever reconcile no matter how much she secretly wished they could, etc. 

 

I don't think I'm expressing this well at all (which I'll take as a sign that I need more caffeine!), but I actually thought the "you're the one I WANT to want (but don't!)" speech was a huge boost for L/L shippers, who clearly WAS the one she still wanted whether she wanted to want him at that time or not :) Now, whether the writing/acting/directing up until that episode consistently supported the idea that she still loved Luke and didn't love Christopher is certainly up for debate, but that's probably for another thread :) 

Edited February 16, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[FictionLover]

• She told Chris at the breakup of their marriage that she wanted him to be the one she wanted. Huh? Sounds like she doesn't even want to love Luke
• My take on this was that Lorelai didn't think Luke loved her anymore and that is why she wanted to love someone that wanted her. He did tell her she should be with someone like Christopher and they shouldn't make more of what they had.
• I will always love you was for Rory. She only switched it up when he came in. Out of sight, out of love?
• I still liked it.

  She didn't know he would be there and I believed her emotions took over when she saw him.

• A pretty big list of 'do what Lorelai wants, not what Luke wants,' like own a dog, go to town meetings, not go to the cabin, not buy the house he dreamed of his whole life, delay the wedding for six months until Rory's back, but don't delay it for very long after April appears, and more. 
• Luke was a person that held on to stuff as well (William's Hardware sign, the boat etc). I took this that he understood why it was hard for her to give up her home. Plus he liked the house too. She was willing to move.
• In the VERY LAST episode, she was still saying that Luke never reciprocated. 

I thought she was embarrassed by the song and regardless of him helping her with her car and other actions that she felt he was letting her know it was too late by his actions in the dinner.

 

Geez. My brain's in a very sad place. Makes me want to go write another post-Bon Voyage fanfic in which Luke asks these questions as well.

I hope my perspective gives you a little lift in your L/L sadness, Junie :) They are both very flawed but IMO, perfectly flawed for each other. He messed up too...a lot!

I loved your last fiction!

Plus, I don't think the delay for April was the problem, it was him pushing her away. Had she felt loved and involved, postponing would not have been an issue.

[AnnaRose]

Absolutely, but---(and after one last ramble I'll leave the thread to more positive L/L fans!)---the problem for some of us is that L/L still engaged in the bickering/fighting and just general failures to connect and communicate *without* the passion that sometimes goes with that. I think there's also a way to make the bickering banter sound more playful than irritated, and for me with L/L it often crossed into the latter category while they were dating.

And just to be clear, I have no interest in seeing TV couples all over each other physically, but a little natural affection, a few more smiles rather than sighs of pure exasperation and signs that they were even mildly attracted to each other while sober would not have gone amiss. The actors often looked like it pained them to have to exchange even chaste pecks on the cheek, and overall L/L just gave the impression of having little to no chemistry and compatibility in my very unpopular opinion :) The friendship between them that I once loved was largely lacking once they became a couple as well---they became just two VERY different people who seemed not to get each other or even take much interest in getting each other. It was sometimes hard for me to see that they even still loved each other as friends, let alone as more. 

 

I feel like 'opposite' couples can work when each brings out different strengths in the other---like if Lorelai had made Luke a little happier and more fun and less prone to angry complaining (though she didn't---if anything, Luke became even more negative and joyless once they started dating) or if Luke grounded Lorelai (which...eh, maybe sometimes what some of us see as her becoming less effervescent around him was supposed to signify contentment and maturity?!)---or even if one of them had explored the other's interests for just an episode, like if Lorelai had gone camping. Even if she hated it, it would have shown some effort to connect...and likely proved amusing for us viewers to watch :)

 

I actually think the show did a slightly better job of dealing with the opposite people who date thing with Logan and Rory---he helped her step outside her comfort zone, and she made him (relatively!) more responsible and serious. Rory and Logan also had some clear commonality as well, while the writers seemed more interested in pounding home that Luke and Lorelai are a different species...

 

 

I've never seen an onscreen couple that seemed so profoundly uncomfortable in each other's presence during their supposed romance. Usually that level of onscreen discomfort is associated with some sort of Dark Secret, but here, it just seemed to me as if the characters visibly recoiled at any intimacy even when the story dictated that they were supposed to be madly in love. It made it very difficult to root for them; when they were kissing or even just kicking back together, their body language seemed stiff and awkward, as if merely being in each other's presence pained them. I don't know whether the actors had some sort of epic tiff that bled over into the rapport of the characters or whether they just had a terminal lack of chemistry, but something was seriously off. Say what you will about Chris and Chris/Lorelai, but at least they seemed at ease around each other.

 

I loved Luke and Loralie as friends and would have preferred them to just remain the best of friends throughout the whole series.  Their lack of chemistry when they finally became romantic was genuinely painful for me to watch.  Sometimes adding a sexual component really does ruin even the best of friendships.  I also truly believe that if this couple got married in real life, they would end up in divorce court pretty quickly.  They are complete opposites and would drive each other crazy over time, IMO.  The only way I could see them working as a married couple is if they ended up agreeing to a LAT (Living Apart Together) relationship - where each person keeps their separate domicile due to basic incompatibility in habits and preferences etc, which would otherwise make living together a miserable experience for both of them. 

 

As someone with life long platonic male best friends, it disappointed me that they couldn't have just kept the relationship focused on that rather than having to force a romance.  I think the awkwardness that resulted is a pretty accurate reflection of what the result would be in the real world.   That is just my perspective though, and I don't intend any disrespect or offense to anyone who truly think they belong together romantically long-term.

[junienmomo]

• In the VERY LAST episode, she was still saying that Luke never reciprocated. 
• I thought she was embarrassed by the song and regardless of him helping her with her car and other actions that she felt he was letting her know it was too late by his actions in the dinner.

   

  Geez. My brain's in a very sad place. Makes me want to go write another post-Bon Voyage fanfic in which Luke asks these questions as well.

  I hope my perspective gives you a little lift in your L/L sadness, Junie :) They are both very flawed but IMO, perfectly flawed for each other. He messed up too...a lot!

  I loved your last fiction!

Plus, I don't think the delay for April was the problem, it was him pushing her away. Had she felt loved and involved, postponing would not have been an issue.

 

 

Thanks for your opinion and your kind words about Child Support.

One point of clarification, I was referring to Lorelai's comment that Luke never reciprocates when she is talking one on one with Rory at home. The incident in the diner is exactly as you describe. It was the 'never' part that I found unpleasant.

 

Good insight on the feeling loved and involved. Luke was far more used to being ignored than she was. He didn't like it any better, he just knew it happened.

[Melancholy]

And since apparently I found juniemomo's post too great not to comment on three separate times: 

 

If I were an L/L shipper, I would actually love Lorelai's "you're the one I want to want" to Christopher. As someone who has been on both the giving and receiving end of a very similar speech, I took that to mean "Look, Christopher, I want to love you! You're super into me and eager to please me, we have all this history and a nice, easy compatibility, commonality and rapport, my parents love you (which makes things easier), you're the biological father of my child,  you're my first marriage and I wanted it to be my last. The thing is, I just don't feel what I wish I did, and I don't want to stay with you even though things would be a lot easier right now if I did." And the obvious implication was that she DID have those feelings for Luke. If she didn't "want to want" Luke then, I think that makes perfect sense---after all, she was married to someone else, she and Luke had a painful history and seemed unlikely (from Lorelai's perspective at that moment) to ever reconcile no matter how much she secretly wished they could, etc.

 

Aw, amensisterfriend. We disagree on a bunch, but yep, a Luke/Lorelai shipper, I like the "You're the one I want to want" speech. It does work for me as an affirmation of Luke's internal wonderfullness beating Christopher's blue-blood externals. I'd only disagree that I don't think Lorelai and Chris have nice, easy compatibility if the conversation gets any deeper or consequential than what to order for dinner. Although you know, I love the speech mostly as a Luke/Lorelai fan and a Luke fan. Actually as a Lorelai fan and Chris-disliker, I think the speech is too harsh on Lorelai because it lends credence to Chris's IMO somewhat put on jealousy that Lorelai was still pining for Luke and THAT'S what was breaking up the marriage. I do think you can love two people at the same time and I think Lorelai felt that way about Luke and Chris. However, she was fully prepared to be all in her marriage to Chris. I didn't see Lorelai behave cruelly or disloyally to Chris in their marriage. At worst, she was a little distant at things like planning the public wedding but I think that was for a host of reasons. But Chris pressuring Lorelai to have a baby out of sheer jealousy instead of a true desire for another child and then having the nerve to be offended that Lorelai didn't want to get knocked up immediately especially with their Rory-history was cruel and borderline abusive. Chris bolting because of a character reference level, presented to A COURT so Luke could keep his child was cruel and feckless. Chris turning his phone off after he took off from a fight with Lorelai, rendering him incommunicado for days from his wife and heck, THE ENTIRE WORLD including Rory, was cruel and disloyal. As was taking off after only spending an hour in the hospital and never visiting Richard/Emily again in the hospital, despite the almost unfathomable kindness and trust that the elder Gilmores extended to Chris or despite how Rory might be reeling from this since Richard, once he was allowed truly into Rory's life, was a much bigger paternal presence for her than her own father. 

 

So yeah, as much as I'm a Luke/Lorelai shipper, I have a problem with Lorelai even admitting some amount of unfaithful pining as the reason why the marriage was breaking up. I think Lorelai could still love Luke, and be a faithful, committed devoted wife to Christopher and with time, her romantic love for Luke would fade in the distance of a life chosen to be Chris. That is, if Chris would only accept that gift instead of treating Lorelai and really, the whole Gilmore clan like garbage. 

 

Per the original point, I do think Lorelai truly loved Luke. I do think it was about the stuff that Luke did rather than some grand passionate DIRTY love which frankly, Luke has for Lorelai. However, a romantic love that springs from another's kind and self-sacrificing gestures is also very real. Luke was extremely kind to Lorelai and others and Lorelai picked up on that so she fell gradually in love. I think that comes out in Lorelia's gestures of love like how she proposes to him after she's felt abandoned by her whole family but Luke is hell-bent on doing whatever it takes to get Rory back and at Yale, even though Lorelai personally wanted tough love-cutting-Rory off. Even though Lorelai had her tough love position, I think she was still warmed at how much Luke and Paris argued with Lorelai that they should be talking because then it's not about sucking up to Lorelai but about advocating for Rory. 

 

I also think Lorelai loves spending time with Luke. She has fun with their style of banter and picking at their differences. 

[amensisterfriend]

t I don't think Lorelai and Chris have nice, easy compatibility if the conversation gets any deeper or consequential than what to order for dinner.

 

As opposed to the cerebral, emotionally and intellectually profound conversations she routinely had with Luke while they were dating?! :) I don't think we ever saw what he and Lorelai actually talk about when they're not bickering and actively annoying each other. They have literally nothing in common other than both having some crazy family members (don't we all?!) and both living in Stars Hollow. I do think Lorelai and Christopher have a very natural rapport and far more compatibility, connection, commonality etc than Luke and Lorelai ever did, but that's obviously a 'mileage varies' issue.

 

 

 

Per the original point, I do think Lorelai truly loved Luke. I do think it was about the stuff that Luke did rather than some grand passionate DIRTY love which frankly, Luke has for Lorelai. However, a romantic love that springs from another's kind and self-sacrificing gestures is also very real.

 

Is it, though? I mean, it certainly can be, but in their case it just feels more like Lorelai is touched by and thankful for what Luke does for her rather than being in love with him. I realize those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive, but in their case it often comes across like Lorelai feels deep friendship, appreciation, gratitude etc. towards Luke RATHER than romantic love instead of in addition to it. 

 

Anna Rose, I'm in complete agreement with your whole post, and not just because you quoted one of mine ;) I just like couples who 'get' each other, make each other laugh and smile, get along for more than a few minutes at a time, occasionally seem attracted to each other other than when they've been drinking, and genuinely seem to make each other happier and better people. For me, Luke and Lorelai just don't meet any of that criteria.  I do think 'opposites attract' can work if each brings out the other's strengths and the people in question DO seem genuinely attracted/drawn to each other, but I agree with Anna Rose that L/L is one of the poorest example of that trope and would almost certainly end up divorced. They had enough conflicts, issues, mini-breakups and just general lack of happiness in the span of their-not-even-all-that-long relationship to convince me they just didn't work---Luke telling Liz early on in Season 7 that they just weren't right together, while I guess we were supposed to think was just something he was trying to convince himself of, rung completely and totally true for me.

 

Sometimes i think AS-P's established love of those classic movies is to blame for part of what she (IMO, obviously) did wrong in writing/directing the L/L relationship.  A lot of the screwball comedies she adores give us that awesome rapid-fire banter she likes to emulate (which is awesome!) but nearly always features 'opposites' who bicker and annoy each other far more than they actually connect. (And the movies often end when the couple gets together, so AS-P had no guidance as to how to write those bickering opposites in a real romantic relationship!) I love many of those movies too, but it's hard for me to shake the suspicion that a lot of those radically different, never-not-bickering pairings would be woefully mismatched, incompatible and just plain unhappy in real life---and that's even the ones who DO seem powerfully drawn to each other and romantically attracted to each other, which L/L just don't IMO....except maybe back in S1, when a lot of the chemistry was wasted while both dated other people :)  

Edited February 17, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[txhorns79]

They had enough conflicts, issues, mini-breakups and just general lack of happiness in the span of their-not-even-all-that-long relationship to convince me they just didn't work---Luke telling Liz early on in Season 7 that they just weren't right together, while I guess we were supposed to think was just something he was trying to convince himself of, rung completely and totally true for me.

 

I sort of agree.  I like the chemistry they have, but they did fall apart as a couple.  And I realize that a lot of their unhappiness was because someone apparently didn't know how to write for a happy couple, but even still, I would be fine if they have moved on from each other in the revival.  If they are just good friends, I'm cool with it. 

[dustylil]

They have literally nothing in common other than both having some crazy family members (don't we all?!) and both living in Stars Hollow

 

I can think of  more than a couple of things they had in common. They were  both small business owners and  were successful at what they did.  While both took part in community activities, both were also homebodies with  domestic hobbies - woodworking, cooking and diverse home repairs for Luke, quilting and sewing for Lorelai.  A small point, but  both enjoyed attending Broadway plays. Both had comparable senses of humour -  dark and somewhat askew. While neither one would be considered formally well educated for this day and age, both were quite intelligent, widely read and followed current events.

 

Whether or not they were suited to go the distance as a couple is another matter entirely. Certainly before the end of the first half of Season 6, I had my doubts whether they could - or should.

[txhorns79]

I can think of  more than a couple of things they had in common. They were  both small business owners and  were successful at what they did.  While both took part in community activities, both were also homebodies with  domestic hobbies - woodworking, cooking and diverse home repairs for Luke, quilting and sewing for Lorelai.

 

I think that's kind of like saying they have things in common because both drove cars, and neither appeared to have parking tickets.  Superficially, it sounds like they have much in common, but once you get more specific, their supposed commonalities are just differences.      

[Sara2009]

I think that's kind of like saying they have things in common because both drove cars, and neither appeared to have parking tickets. Superficially, it sounds like they have much in common, but once you get more specific, their supposed commonalities are just differences.

Tbh, I feel the same way about Lorelai and Christopher at least as adults.

[AnnaRose]

I can think of  more than a couple of things they had in common. They were  both small business owners and  were successful at what they did.  While both took part in community activities, both were also homebodies with  domestic hobbies - woodworking, cooking and diverse home repairs for Luke, quilting and sewing for Lorelai.

 

I never thought of Loralie as a homebody.  I do remember her wanting to drag Luke places he adamantly didn't want to go.  And I will take your word for it, but I don't remember the quilting.  I haven't watched my DVDs in a while though.

[dustylil]

AnnaRose, Lorelai spoke of making quilts and the one on her bed is a patchwork one she made from Rory's baby clothes.

Lorelai also spent a great deal of time watching television shows and movies at home. I am too much of a snob to dignify that as an actual hobby :)

She may have  indeed wanted to go with Luke to places. However, she also seemed quite content to spend time with him at  his apartment. And before they were romantically involved, she didn't seem to go out all that much unless it was on an actual date with Jason or Alex or Max. I don't recall us ever seeing or hearing of her doing karaoke before Season 7. I also don't remember she and Sookie  going out to a movie or to  paint the town at least at least a bright  pink on a regular basis before Sookie's marriage.

It was for that reason I characterized her as a homebody.

Edited February 17, 2016 by dustylil

[junienmomo]

Well, everyone, you've done a lovely job of taking my superficial question and deepening it to what I think I'm seeing now: 

 

What kind of real world, imperfect relationship will suit Lorelai, Christopher and/or Luke long term? The answer options should include no steady live-in relationship with another person.

 

My original question had L/L as OTP as the basis. When I postulate that the perfect OTP doesn't exist, here's what I think.

 

Christopher and Lorelai had their childhood and their child. However, he was never as interested in Rory as Lorelai was. They both love to play, but Christopher will emotionally always be a go places, do things, different is good type of person. Not as serious as Rachel, but he does have the 'something new and different is better' tendency. For want of a better label, I use the term Experimenter. He loves to try different things, but not stick to one too long. He's not a guy who likes to build stability into his life.

 

Lorelai is a Maker. She builds a business from the ground up, builds an extended family for her daughter in SH, carves a niche for herself in the town. She is also an Experimenter in that she loves trying something new, although in contrast to Christopher, she won't give up her creations easily in favor of the new experiences.

 

Luke is a Maker, too. Same things as Lorelai, including the new task of building April's extended family. He is not an Experimenter. 

 

Where does this leave these people, presuming the feelings involved are sincere, and that season 7 indicates that Lorelai's feelings for Luke are stronger (not OTP level) than her feelings for Christopher?

 

I think Christopher needs more than Stars Hollow. He would encourage Lorelai in a Mike Armstrong deal to enhance that side of her career, and be a constant source of new Experimenter ideas. She would gradually de-emphasize SH and not notice. Probably no more kids for them. Without Lorelai, he would find one or more partners to join him on his journey.

 

Luke would prefer Lorelai on a marriage basis, but would accept a togetherness relationship, probably in a shared home because of their homebody tendencies. He would like to try for more kids, but it would not be a must. SH is a must, and a Mike Armstrong deal would be tolerated, a little encouraged, but he might not be too active in it. 

 

Lorelai would like one more shot at kids, but only if there were a father as a real partner. It would, however, drive her further into Maker (making a family) and away from Experimenter. If no kids come, Experimenter is a great life to lead as long as she doesn't give up too much of her own creations. 

 

Taking the long view, I think Lorelai would choose for the Maker and homebody roles even without kids, because it's what she's done for 25 years and she loves what she's created. That it would be in Stars Hollow is a given, with or without Mike Armstrong options. Her emotions are there, the Maker compatibility is there, so I think she would choose to be in a live-in relationship with Luke as well. Not an OTP, but a conscious imperfect choice.

 

 

I'm still digesting your thoughts on the 'I want to want you' question. Thanks for explaining.

[txhorns79]

And I will take your word for it, but I don't remember the quilting.

 

I think Lorelai mentioned sewing old clothes together to make one.  I don't remember her saying quilting was a hobby.  Maybe there is some episode out there where she says that, but I don't recall it off hand.  I do remember seeing her sewing during the series, but in those cases she was working on a specific item of clothing, not just sewing for pleasure.    

Edited February 17, 2016 by txhorns79

[junienmomo]

I think Lorelai mentioned sewing old clothes together to make one.  I don't remember her saying quilting was a hobby.  Maybe there is some episode out there where she says that, but I don't recall it off hand.  I do remember seeing her sewing during the series, but in those cases she was working on a specific item of clothing, not just sewing for pleasure.    

 

Rory's Birthday Parties. Emily goes upstairs, sees the quilt, and Lorelai explains she made it from Rory's baby clothes. A beautiful Emily/Lorelai moment.

Lorelai sewed costumes voluntarily as well. 

[txhorns79]

Rory's Birthday Parties. Emily goes upstairs, sees the quilt, and Lorelai explains she made it from Rory's baby clothes. A beautiful Emily/Lorelai moment.

Lorelai sewed costumes voluntarily as well.

 

Very true.  I just didn't recall Lorelai ever saying she engaged in those activities as a hobby.   

[Sara2009]

Honestly, I don't blame Lorelai for not " wanting to want" Luke. She still loved him, but the last part of their relationship was fraught with drama and heartache. It makes perfect sense( to me) that she didn't want to go back to that.

[Melancholy]

As opposed to the cerebral, emotionally and intellectually profound conversations she routinely had with Luke while they were dating?! :) I don't think we ever saw what he and Lorelai actually talk about when they're not bickering and actively annoying each other. They have literally nothing in common other than both having some crazy family members (don't we all?!) and both living in Stars Hollow. I do think Lorelai and Christopher have a very natural rapport and far more compatibility, connection, commonality etc than Luke and Lorelai ever did, but that's obviously a 'mileage varies' issue.

 

Luke and Lorelai talk about the lives that they share. That's what they have in common- how they spend day-in-and-day-out in the same world as small business owners living in Stars Hallow who've taken an interest in each other's lives. They discuss their businesses, their families, their dog Paul Anka, how Stars Hallow events impact them in every ep because that's just the kind of town it is, etc. "The fuckin' regularness of life" to quote The Sopranos. I can't even begin to start naming how many non-fighty conversation Luke and Lorelai had when they were just dating (let alone if I added when they were friends). They discussed Rory, including memorably deep conversations about Lorelai's struggles parenting her between the mom card issue in S5 to yes "bickery, but Luke still had her back" conversations about Lorelai shutting Rory out to Luke reassuring Lorelai that she was a good mother. Luke and Lorelai had deeper conversations that actually reacted to a problem of Rory's instead of how Chris and Lorelai only discussed Rory shallowly and usually in a reaction to a pity part on their part. Luke and Lorelai regularly discussed the work of running the diner and the inn, through all of the little crises that come up for busy small businesses. Luke's work as a handyman for the inn, Lorelai working around Luke's delivery services for the diner, the article at the Dragonfly in the tourism magazine and the family drama there. They discussed the friends and frenemies and enemies that they had in common- the whole Stars Hallow cast of characters. Lorelai tried turning Luke onto movies and he became more and more conversant in pop culture. Really, I never thought Luke and Lorelai OF ALL COUPLES had a lack of things to talk to each other about. 

 

With Chris and Lorelai, they really didn't share lives, especially when they got married, ironically. Chris didn't seem to work when they were married and his job never seemed that important to him or vivid. He never took an big interest in the Dragonfly from investing in it to being a handyman to being the one who showed Lorelai some the early ropes on setting up a small business. They didn't share Stars Hallow as an interest or connections with anyone there. And IMO Lorelai was so nervous about offending Christopher and Christopher so didn't want to touch this interpersonal third rail, that neither of them engaged with anything remotely difficult about how to parent Rory, past S2. (Lorelai did most of her confronting Chris about his crappy parenting in S1-2 but then she stopped bothering. S2 also had them on the same side of the accident issue, for whatever that's worth because I count it as very little because it's just an unknown problem for Chris to get macho angry about for Lorelai's benefit.)

 

Lorelai and Christopher grew up together which counts for something, especially from me who does highly value the Harford/senior Gilmore world in Lorelai's/Rory's life. However even there, their rebellions were over and their childhoods had been over for many years in Lorelai's case and a few years in Christopher's case. That's all behind them. E/R were more pleased with Christopher as a son-in-law but I didn't really see that yield clear, positive pluses. I didn't see marrying Christopher improve Lorelai's relationship with her parents. It's not like Lorelai's and Chris's shared experience growing up together makes them encourage each other to reach out to their parents to build stronger relationships all around. Chris didn't give a shit about E/R, no matter how nice they were to him. So even there, Loreali could have married a Luke who was accepted by elder Gilmores by S6 and not lose any connection to her roots that Christopher could have provided. 

 

I agree with dustylil on their hobbies. Plus, as a foodie, the fact that Luke is a great cook and Lorelai is a champion eater gives them guaranteed dovetailing interests that are important no matter what. Also, quite a bit of Lorelai's pop culture consumption is in the interest of watching trash or problematic stuff to mock it rather than to just hero-worship beautiful art. Luke fits in there:

 

LUKE: And, I could have been fun at this recital. I mean, you're probably sitting there mocking most of it. I can mock stuff.

LORELAI: Oh, you're a great mocker

Edited February 17, 2016 by Melancholy

[junienmomo]

Luke and Lorelai talk about the lives that they share. That's what they have in common- how they spend day-in-and-day-out in the same world as small business owners living in Stars Hallow who've taken an interest in each other's lives. 

 

An amazing and thorough description, Melancholy. I won't try to add anything, but rather I'll wax philosophical with a quote from DSLeo's latest fanfiction, Luke Danes, Babysitter. 

 

(Luke is being discombobulated by Lorelai, as usual.)

 

His heart a fluttery lump of goo, Luke leaned over and kissed her. It wasn't a huge success, what with the Gilmore mouth babbling away, but it did shut her up.

"Um," said Lorelai, and Luke was glad the darkness hid both their faces.

"I want to give you a happy ending," he said softly.

"I don't want a happy ending."

Luke drew back, scowling. Of all the rebuffs he'd gotten, that was the oddest. Didn't all women want a happy ending? Even most of Jess's books managed some sort of happy ending.

"The fairy tales always talk about happy ever after, but I want the happy part in the middle," mused Lorelai wistfully. "The in-between stuff. The mortgages and car repairs and sitting on a porch watching fireflies and you drink too much green tea and I have too much coffee and…"

That time, the kiss was rather more successful.

[Melancholy]

Completely agree on all of that. E/R gave a lot more to Chris than his own parents did and never once did I see Chris go: "I wish you would have been my parents instead of Straube or Francine." No, Chris was constantly told by his father and even his mother that Lorelai and the Gilmores were his downfall from grace. Instead of them trying to be supportive or telling Chris to try to take a step back and get his life together. They took almost every chance to harp on the crap Chris was given and that it was never his fault, but they never gave him any sound advice or said: "It's your own damn fault, so either accept them and move on or not." However, while both Emily and Richard admitted that they wanted to kill Christopher several times from getting Lorelai pregnant to even him being absent from Rory's and Lorelai's life. They gave him so many oppurtunities or cheered him on and no once did Chis say: "Thank you for always believing in me." Instead it was: "Well that's great, but who cares what you think?" Yet he couldn't say something like that to his own parents. He told Lorelai and Rory and even Sherry many times he would have still dropped out of college or had his string of low paying jobs until he met with his friends and started their business together. I also loved how his grandfather gave his entire fortune to Chris becauase:

A) His dad had died and the grandfather apparently didn't like Francine.

B) Never did once tried to get to know his two great granddaughters, but hey, he loved Christopher his only grandchild. So, um... OK. 

C) Really, it was never Chris's fault, it was everyone else's and the only person who ever had the balls to let him see how much of a jerk he was, was Luke. Who both told him off and finally gave him a punch in the face that critics and fans said that was over due by over 20 years. 

 

Agree with all of this. Maybe this is an UO, but even as a pro-Gilmore family/"Lorelai reconciles with her parents" fan, I ship Luke/Lorelai over Lorelai/Chris. In fact, I think Luke/Lorelai folds in better to the reconciliation story. From a Doylist perspective, the narrative struggle here is for Lorelai and her parents to accept each other as they are, and especially for her parents to accept and grow to love Lorelai's adult choices that they disapproved of because its how she chose to live life on her terms. As a narrative choice, that story is far better wrapped up for me with Richard/Emily accepting and welcoming Luke as a son-in-law and more underrated, Lorelai recognizing some of their odd deportment choices as true love and acceptance like her realizing that their insurance-horror stories was validating them as part of the family and connected to them or Emily isn't just a high maintenance pit of fussiness but would actually give back what she takes in the form of a new house. The reconciliation feels hollow if it's just Lorelai making the same damn romantic choice that they wanted twenty two years ago. 

 

From a Watsonian perspective, I just don't think Chris is capable of embracing a family. You know, I actually think that he wants to be but he's emotionally stunted. With every chance that E/R gave him, I don't think there's any developing a Chris/Hartford Gilmore relationships. It's just frozen in amber. Luke, on the other hand, would put in the work to be a part of that family. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Melancholy

[takalotti]

There was some discussion in the rewatch thread about how Luke should have asked Lorelai out when he learned she turned down the Chilton dad way back at the beginning of S1. Basically, his relief should have made him realize he was jealous and done something about it.

I know that the real reason it took Luke and Lorelai so long to get together was because ASP couldn't handle, or didn't like to deal with, the OTP couple actually being together because for some reason she thought that meant they'd have to sit around saying "No, YOU'RE pretty" to each other all day long.

But that aside, I guess I always figured the reason Luke didn't ask Lorelai out was because he thought any desire he had for her, or any jealousy he had about other men, was due to superficial/base lust. And being friends with her, he didn't want to gamble "Hey, how about I act on my lusty desires and see if maybe this turns into something" because if it didn't work out he'd lose his friend. And sure, there was probably some "I'm not supposed to want my friend like that; God I'm such a perv" issues or the "She's so amazing, she'd never go out with me" type of insecurities. But mostly I think Luke didn't believe he had REAL feelings for Lorelai, just lusty ones that he needed to ignore.

Most of the reason I believe this is because of his reaction when he Saw Her Face. To viewers who AREN'T obsessed with GG, it seems like he's only just now realizing he has any feelings for Lorelai. But to those of us who are, it might have at first seemed to be ridiculous. "Really, Luke? You had no idea you liked her? Then what was with all those knowing looks, or jealous fits? You didn't consider this already when Rachel spelled it out to you?"

But once I started thinking about it as, "Luke used to think he just lusted for her, but now he realizes he genuinely loves her" it makes a little more sense.

[cantbeflapped]

Takalotti, I like your theory. Of course, we all know he couldn't ask her out too soon because this is TV and we need tension. But, like you, I like to try and figure out how the story makes since without that consideration.

Something changed in Luke's aha moment in LCSHF in season 4. And I think that's a good place to go to figure out why he didn't ask her out in season one. I'll have to reflect on it during this rewatch.

The word "lust" made me slightly uncomfortable used in regard to my beloved Luke. Do folks really "lust" in idyllic Stars Hollow?

Edited March 22, 2016 by cantbeflapped

[junienmomo]

While I agree with the excellent points made by Melancholy and takalotti, I add a couple more behind the scenes drivers:

• While ASP didn't want an OTP at all, as per my understanding of her motivation for the series, the commercial interest of the studio basically required it. Hence the gender change from Daisy to Luke and the crazy good chemistry and romantic storyline in season 1
• The ratings for S1 kinda sucked, with GG at number 126 and Friends, its direct competition at 4, IIRC. I infer from that that ASP needed to toe the studio line if she wanted more seasons. Therefore she could neither continue the intensity of the L/L OTP, nor could she neglect it. My guess is she kept things rolling, but it probably wasn't her favorite task.
• Most humans will tend to neglect their least favorite tasks when the pressure is on, doing only what is necessary. That's why, after the unbelievably romantic chuppah moment, L/L things began to go downhill.
• Some of their decisions were wonderful, like Luke having to parent Jess, and some were horrible, like getting married on a cruise
• The way I look at the self-help book is that the writers (not lazy, mind you, their task was Sisyphean) dug themselves into the Nicole marriage hole and it was easier to pretend Luke had never loved Lorelai (hello? Chuppah?)

 

I always remember and laugh at Lauren Graham's slip at the Bonfire episode "That's why I love you. Oops! Show over." 

The word "lust" made me slightly uncomfortable used in regard to my beloved Luke. Do folks really "lust" in idyllic Stars Hollow?

LOL, that's great! Here are some examples:

• Lorelai and Max "see if you can get me into Mensa" or rather creepy Lorelai as schoolgirl to the teacher moments
• Every breath that Miss Patty took
• Rory after Jess arrived
• Babette and her Morey stories

[cantbeflapped]

Hmm, Ms Patty, nuff said, Junienmomo. I mean, if you can lust after produce....

As far as Luke's self help book realizations (I'd quote that part of your post, but quoting just part of a post is giving me fits), I'd prefer to think he didn't really forget his attraction to Lorelai. It does make sense that he would sort of stuff it down in his subconscious while he's married to another woman, though. The aha moment seems to me, my current thinking anyway, to be not a sudden realization that he's attracted to Lorelai, but a realization that the friendship they have has elements of what you are supposed to be looking for in a mate. The tape guru was asking "who would you most want to talk to if you got good news?" and questions like that. So I'm guessing the pieces just fell together for Luke and he realized that he has the right kind of companionship with Lorelai and he's attracted to her...so....BAM!

[shron17]

But mostly I think Luke didn't believe he had REAL feelings for Lorelai, just lusty ones that he needed to ignore.

I agree with this in the very early episodes.  But I always thought the way Luke reacted when he saw Lorelai and Max in Love and War and Snow was the moment when he realized his feelings went beyond that.  The point when he found out Lorelai was dating Alex and he met Nicole was likely when he gave up hope it would happen and tried to move on.  And listening to the tape in LCSHF the pieces fell together and he realized it could be the kind of relationship he wanted to have.  I also think part of the reason Luke was so attracted to Lorelai had to do with family.  He lost his family so young and saw Lorelai and Rory as the kind of family he'd like to be able to have with someone.