Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers: Lalalalala! I can't hear you!

[Rumsy4]

Anyone hear what Hercules told Mary Margaret in the promo? I couldn't make it out. 

[Camera One]

So Neal said the Underworld is not an easy place to get out of, which suggests that he was there...

 

Let me guess, everyone will go hunting for coconut strainers again?  The only way to get out of the Underworld is to capture Pain and Panic.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

So Neal said the Underworld is not an easy place to get out of, which suggests that he was there...

If he was there, how did he leave? 

 

Even Cora needed to cut a deal with Hades to be let out of there, and when she didn't deliver on her end of the bargain, she was not only kept there, but turned back into the Miller's daughter.

 

This is basically why I'm on the fence about that entire opening scene. If he had no unfinished business, then he would have had no business in the UW in the first place. 

 

Either it's a clumsy attempt with the writing, and with A&E, I mean that's beyond possible, or there's something more to that.

[Amerilla]

So Neal said the Underworld is not an easy place to get out of, which suggests that he was there...

 

Not necessarily. Maybe when you pass on to the afterlife, you gain a knowledge of how that entire plane of existence works. Or he's met souls who have passed from the UW. Until we know otherwise, I'd assume it's nothing more than vague-expositing.

[Rumsy4]

Well, that's assuming Regina has murdered every single person in the Underworld (including Hook) and that is why they're there. Operation Firebird is about more than just her victims.

She's taking on a greater initiative than what Hook did with Ursula. She's going to help Underbrooke's citizens, regardless of whether or not she killed them. It's more than righting a mistake. It's essentially Emma's role in S1, which is why it's a Savior role.

 

Emma's role was to break the Dark Curse, and thus bring Happy Endings to the cursed people in Storybrooke. Even before the curse broke, she was going around helping people like Cinderella, and Hansel and Gretel. In Season 4 we found that apparently it's Emma job to bring Happy Endings to "everyone" (which seems ridiculous, but that's beside the point).

 

I don't see how Regina is the savior of the underworld when multiple people have unfinished business there. Regina can help those who have unfinished business with her, like her father, to move on, but not the undead who have unfinished business with someone else. For instance, James is hanging around in the UW. His unfinished business is probably to do with his twin brother, not Regina. It looks like Snow might be the one helping Hercules with his unfinished business in the next episode.

And then we have Milah, who I think will move on after seeing Henry and learning about Baelfire's fate. 

Operation Firebird is not about Regina saving the Underworld, but all Nevengers becoming sidetracked by pointless quests each helping someone or the other move on.

 

On a related note, will the Nevengers' intervention send some of these people into the burning lake? Cruella's unfinished business is probably her inability to kill people. I doubt any amount of rainbow stickers or unicorns will encourage her to give it up and move on to a better place. lol

Edited March 11, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't see how Regina is the savior of the underworld when multiple people have unfinished business there. Regina can help those who have unfinished business with her, like her father, to move on, but not the undead who have unfinished business with someone else.

 

Operation Firebird is not about Regina saving the Underworld, but all Nevengers becoming sidetracked by pointless quests each helping someone or the other move on.

Regina shares the role with the rest of the Nevengers. A&E use the term "Savior" very loosely and I don't mean it in the capacity that Regina is destined to save the Underworld because she's super magicalz'n'stuffz. The word has been watered down to meaning someone who assists someone else to get their happy ending. Regina and the rest of the Nevengers are going out of their to way to help people in need. They don't have to be directly related to someone's tragedy in order to work out their problems. (Even though, A&E will likely only use past connections instead of new relationships, as usual.)

Edited March 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I have to stop myself from visiting this thread now too to avoid promos.

 

I don't see how Regina is the savior of the underworld when multiple people have unfinished business there. Regina can help those who have unfinished business with her, like her father, to move on, but not the undead who have unfinished business with someone else. 

 

I totally agree.  But A&E did have Regina utter that ridiculous line: "Every soul in this town has unfinished business.  And chances are, for a lot of them, we're that business."  

 

Speak for yourself, lady.

 

Ditto for Rumple, with his stupid "And the reason [Cruella]'s here is YOU", to Emma.

 

It suggests that A&E is going to make all of them personally responsible for the various peoples' unfinished business, not just R&R.  I sure as hell hope not, but it's them we're talking about.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

What makes little sense about that whole unfinished business idea is that unless they are only there because they want revenge and/or an apology from Regina/Rumpel, there is little anyone can do for the strangers. Henry was there because he needed to put things right with his daughter, not because he was pissed at her. One would assume that if Percival's family was there, they'd want to close things up with their distraught son not Regina. It seems to be an internal, emotional focus. If Milah showed up, I could see her being pissed at Rumpel, but she's got closure issues with Hook more so than Rumpel. If Marian is there, it wouldn't be Regina/Zelena she has unfinished business with, but Robin. It's like if a guy randomly opened fire at the mall and killed a bunch of people and now they are in the Underworld. They didn't know Random Guy. They don't really care about Random Guy. They care about the loved ones they left behind. That's their unfinished business.

[KingOfHearts]

It seems really arbitrary who has unfinished business and who doesn't. That's kind of annoying when you're dealing with such a huge worldbuilding element like the afterlife. A&E are effectively deciding who gets to go to purgatory, heaven or hell. That's very weighted for such a superficial writing style.

Edited March 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The only rhyme and reason (as usual) is... their own returning favorites like Peter Pan/Cora/Cruella and shiny new toys like Hercules have unfinished business, but everyone else doesn't.

[PixiePaws1]

something i am curious about...Hades is holding up Killian's blood covered hook, Emma is holding the blood covered hook and Killian is wearing his hook in the sneak peek. So he fends off the thing with the red eyes while the girl escapes, then Emma finds her way to where Killian and the girl parted ways and all she fnds is the hook....then Hades swoops in taking the hook from Emma to do some mustache twirling and taunting ??

[KingOfHearts]

I'm hoping there's more than just Snow/Hercules/Megara stuff this week. Emma meeting Hades and his bloody hook will at least be there. Knowing this show, nothing interesting will happen until the last 30 seconds. (See: 4x13 when we were all waiting to hear what Snow did to Maleficent... and still didn't get the full story.)

Edited March 13, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Lots of guessing games are possible.

- How many seconds will the Writers allow Snow to have with Emma this week?

- How many times will Snow say she's "not all good" and atone for something?

- How many retcons will occur?

- Which character will do exactly what Hades wants them to do?

- Where will this episode fall on the scale of "pointlessness"?

Edited March 13, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I think/hope Hook and Emma will be reunited by the end of the episode. Everything else will probably be filler. lol

[KingOfHearts]

Maybe Hook gets released but there's a catch? Hades doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would have only Cerberus on guard...

[Camera One]

If we follow the pattern of hostage/villain (eg. 3A: Henry/Peter Pan, 3B: Rumple/Zelena, 4A: Anna/FrozeninPast, 5A: Rumple/Dark Swan), then Hook will probably only share scenes with Hades for a few episodes. They love ending the episode showing whoever is imprisoned, so maybe we won't see Hook locked up until the end of this episode.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Operation "Find My Pen" has begun.  What a waste of time... hopefully, they will have Robin clue in or something.  He really has nothing to do.  You'd think he would have crawled in to the office to find out why it was taking forever.  

 

Of course, Rumple would be making a deal with Hades.  They probably have a deep past together too.  Just like Ingrid's secret walks in the woods with Rumple, the Queens of Darkness' secret cabin in the woods with Rumple, etc. etc. etc.

[Camera One]

I'm going to guess the Pen is in the Sorcerer's House, which is in Underbrooke as well.  Because.  It's 50/50 whether Merlin will show up to say something useless.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I unfortunately found out this episode will be about Rumple through a promo image, so I am guessing this episode will involve Rumple and Hades talking in cryptic riddles "We both know what you want...", "Maybe we can make a deal..", à la Rumple's conversations with the Snow Queen.

 

It's quite fascinating to ponder how each flashback will retcon previous history on the show. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

It's quite fascinating to ponder how each flashback will retcon previous history on the show. 

 

To misquote Austen, "This is not the sort of happiness which a person would in general wish to owe to a TV Show; but where other powers of entertainment are wanting, the true philosopher will derive benefit from such as are given."

[KingOfHearts]

 

It's quite fascinating to ponder how each flashback will retcon previous history on the show.

This is what worries me about 5B. A&E obviously couldn't just put in flashback replays (like Stable Boy in 5x05), so they're having to retcon in new events that directly relate to something we already know about. Regina has murder victims, so let's show the only person who didn't have a problem with her. Snow struggles with different identities between a bandit and a mother, so let's show her learning to fight like a bandit with Hercules before she even had to become one. Since A&E don't want to ditch flashbacks, they're stuck creating retcons. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

In Season 7, we will get to go into the light and realize that life sucks there too.  

[KAOS Agent]

 

I am guessing this episode will involve Rumple and Hades talking in cryptic riddles "We both know what you want...", "Maybe we can make a deal..", à la Rumple's conversations with the Snow Queen.

 

It's quite fascinating to ponder how each flashback will retcon previous history on the show.

 

You don't even want to know about the worry currently occurring in the fandom about the possible retcons in this particular episode. It could go very, very badly if not done well.

 

Rumpel making a deal with Hades makes a lot of sense. My guess is that it won't be all that cryptic either. He's not of fan of the people he's in hell with and they know something he doesn't want Belle to know, so why not make a deal where he's willing to leave them all down there in place of another soul and he goes home to Belle? He can then appear to be helping with Operation Firebird and acting as a "hero" but his true motive is to make sure they help enough souls move on to make sure everyone else is stuck there. It's classic Rumpel.

Edited March 18, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[PixiePaws1]

I'm am hoping so hard that Rumple overplays his hand with Hades. Rumple is so freaking arrogant. Hades may like the dark things Rumple has done and will be happy to join him in inflicting a whole bunch of pain BUT Hades is a vain and arrogant God...if Rumple tries to push him too hard or thinks he can put one over him and pisses him off...ooh ...I'd love to see Rumple be helpless and some monster's chew toy before getting chucked into the River of Souls.

[InsertWordHere]

Regarding next week's promo: I am so happy to see Liam again, but in what universe is Emma not good enough for Hook? I hope it turns out to be something silly and not anything having to do with her thief past or relationship with Neal or something.

[Rumsy4]

Maybe it's Rumple or Hades up to their tricks.

[Mari]

 I am so happy to see Liam again, but in what universe is Emma not good enough for Hook?

Yeah, I have to completely agree.

 

She's a light magic princess who's saved a bunch of people from horrible fates, and literally came to the Underworld to rescue him.  He's an ex-pirate.  I like him a lot, but . . . what?  

Edited March 21, 2016 by Mari

[hockeycat400]

Yeah, that promo freaked me out.  Liam doesn't like Emma?!?   I hope Liam is really Hades in disguise...trying to keep Killian in Underbrooke...

[YaddaYadda]

Eh, there's likely a lot more going on behind the scenes than him just liking him, like that entire line about the destruction of Hades. Plus if Hook is a real threat to Hades, then the best thing that can happen is for Hook to move on. If he goes back to being alive, he's still a problem because he'll die eventually and they'd be right back to square one, and if he sticks around, still a problem.

 

Hades could be manipulating things to suit his purpose, but Liam has been without Hook for a really long time, so maybe selfishly he wants to keep his brother with him? 

[Katherine]

I'm torn about Liam. I really hate the idea of Hook having to choose between his brother and girlfriend. Obviously he'll choose Emma, and even though Emma/Hook is the relationship I care about most, I hate how familial love always seems to take a backseat to romantic love (not just on this show; in general). So in that sense, I kind of hope this is all a trick by Hades. But on the other hand, I really do want to see lots of Hook and Liam interacting in the present. I don't want Liam to have already moved on. I want to see him react to the man Killian has become.

[Rumsy4]

There's no way Liam would want him to stay in the underworld instead of happy with the woman who went to hell to get him. 

 

I also think it's odd that Hook thinks he should move on instead of go back with Emma. This is the man that out ran a curse, sold his ship, never gave up no matter how many times Emma tried to push him away, followed her through a portal, and still loved Emma when he didn't have a heart. None of it makes sense.

 

I think it is really Liam. It's not liek he wants Killian to stay in the Underworld. It looks like he might be able to take Killian with him to the happier place. If it is a choice between moving on to a happier place with his brother, or Killian staying behind in the UW with Hades gunning for them all, it makes sense for Liam to want his brother to come along with him. 

 

On Hook's end, he may not want Emma to split her heart with him. It's not like she discussed it with him. He may think it's better for everyone all around if he moved on.

[KateJones]

Or maybe Liam is angry at Emma for turning his brother into the Dark One and doesn't believe Emma's motives are pure this time. Maybe. I'm just very confused.

[HoodlumSheep]

Hades could be manipulating things to suit his purpose, but Liam has been without Hook for a really long time, so maybe selfishly he wants to keep his brother with him?

It's so hard to tell based on that short promo. :/

Maybe Liam hasn't coped well with being in the Underworld? He's probably spent the last 200 years slamming his head on a desk or wall for being tricked by the king. Plus the added guilt of leaving a youngish Killian alone and not being there for him. It could have been enough time for him to put Killian on a pedestal so to speak.

Or hades could be pulling some strings in the back ground. Maybe Liam (or fake!Liam???) convinces Hook to feel like moving on would be for the good of Emma and co. If he moves on, then she wouldn't really have a reason to stay in the Underworld, and then she might possibly leave and get to safety? Therefore, Hades' problem is solved.

I don't know. I'm not sure if I would be more or less frustrated if Liam turned out to be fake. Talk about cruel if it wasn't really him.

Edited March 21, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

Or hades could be pulling some strings in the back ground. Maybe Liam (or fake!Liam???) convinces Hook to feel like moving on would be for the good of Emma and co. If he moves on, then she wouldn't really have a reason to stay in the Underworld, and then she might possibly leave and get to safety?

 

Except that Emma's name is on the headstone along with Regina and Snow's. Isn't she technically trapped there because she went to the UW to bring Hook home? 

 

Whatever Liam's problem is, I think it has to do with whatever Hades' problem with Hook is.

 

And what is exactly Hook's unfinished business that he might able to move on so quickly?

Edited March 21, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[HoodlumSheep]

Except that Emma's name is on the headstone along with Regina and Snow's. Isn't she technically trapped there because she went to the UW to bring Hook home?

Whatever Liam's problem is, I think it has to do with whatever Hades' problem with Hook is.

Hades might be able to handwave the headstones away? I don't know. Although I guess he wouldn't want to let people go, so never mind.

My mind is starting to go a little loopy from lack of sleep :P.

[InsertWordHere]

I sort of assumed Liam would want Hook to go back and make things right with their brother, assuming he's aware of Liam 2's existence and Liam 2 is still alive, which he totally is because this show wont be able to resist having him show up in Season 6 or 7. If this is Liam, even taking Emma out of the equation, it seems weird that he would urge Killian to move on. 

[Curio]

Liam doesn't like Emma?!?

Emma: Liam, why don't you like me? Why do you think I'm not good enough for Killian?

Liam: Who stabbed and killed Killian with Excalibur and sent him down here?

Emma: Me...

Liam: And who turned Killian into a Dark One—the thing he hates most in the world?

Emma: Me...

Liam: And who decided it was a good idea to go have shots with Regina instead of helping out Killian who nearly died moments earlier?

Emma: Okay fine! Way to cherry pick all the bad events.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Curio

[scenicbyway]

Emma: Liam, why don't you like me? Why do you think I'm not good enough for Killian?

Liam: Who stabbed and killed Killian with Excalibur and sent him down here?

Emma: Me...

Liam: And who turned Killian into a Dark One—the thing he hates most in the world?

Emma: Me...

Liam: And who decided it was a good idea to go have shots with Regina instead of helping out Killian who nearly died moments earlier?

Emma: Okay fine! Way to cherry pick all the bad events.

Point taken, I could see Liam not being excited about Killian choosing to go with his murderer. I could also see hm not liking that she's a princess since a king got him killed. Killian has asked twice now for her to let him go and the third time I think she will and he'll choose to stay with her. Killian must be Liam's unfinished business but I think Emma is Killian's.

[Curio]

Why is Regina everyone's go-to person for motivational talks now? Why can't Emma talk to her mom and dad about Liam not liking her? Or Henry? Maybe they're also in that scene and the promo doesn't show them, but it's really frustrating how the Charmings keep getting neglected in moments like these.

[oliverwendell]

My immediate reaction to that promo is to want to smack Killian Jones upside the head. Emma flipping went into the literal Underworld to rescue him and now he's all like, "Nah, bitch, I'm movin' on. Good luck finding a ride back to earth"? There are only two possible explanations for that in my mind. One, he's so torn by his love for Liam that he actually wavers in his commitment to Emma. Or two (and this is the one I'd rather see), he's decided he needs to push Emma away and move on without her for Emma's own good. Maybe he thinks there's no way he can be saved, since the heart thing didn't work, and realizes that the longer she stays there in the vain hope she might get him out, the more dangerous it is for her, and he'd rather sacrifice himself (again) for her.

 

I'm kinda thinking it's option one, though.

[Rumsy4]

I can't blame Liam for wanting to take his brother and peace out into the Light. It's kinda ironic/funny that for once the tables are turned, and it's Killian's family that thinks he might be better off without Emma. Emma hasn't yet given Killian a choice about whether he wants leave the UW with her or not. Killian also has a lot of guilt/unresolved feelings over Liam's death. I think it will be emotionally satisfying to see him reconcile all these different elements and make his decision.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Liam doesn't like Emma?!?

 

Liam isn't exactly known for his good judgement. He killed himself because he trusted a corrupt king over his brother.

 

 

I can't blame Liam for wanting to take his brother and peace out into the Light.

I can understand Killian going for that, at least initially. He's been through so much being injured by Arthur, resurrected as the Dark One, killed by Emma, then being tortured to a bloody pulp by Hades. Now Emma won't let him just go in peace. As much as he loves her and shes loves him, when does all the madness end? Do they really want to continue to live like that?

 

As much as I've shipped CaptainSwan, their situation has gotten a bit too extreme.

Edited March 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

My immediate reaction to that promo is to want to smack Killian Jones upside the head. Emma flipping went into the literal Underworld to rescue him and now he's all like, "Nah, bitch, I'm movin' on. Good luck finding a ride back to earth"? There are only two possible explanations for that in my mind. One, he's so torn by his love for Liam that he actually wavers in his commitment to Emma.

 

As someone who also has an extremely close (bordering on "weird" according to my significant other) relationship with my sibling, I can totally understand Killian's predicament. The amount of love he has for Liam is probably pretty darn close to the same amount of love he has for Emma. That's a hell of a lot of love. He hasn't seen his brother in centuries, they're probably familial True Loves, and I could see Killian easily falling back into the younger brother/Lieutenant position and be submissive to his brother's superior older brother/Captain position, so anything Liam says to Hook will be taken as gospel. His entire life, Killian idolized and literally took orders from his older brother, so if Liam said something like, "Little brother, why do you want to even go back to Storybrooke? It has clearly caused you so much pain and suffering. Yes, you have friends and a pretty blonde girlfriend who apparently killed you, but your life is constantly in peril. I hear she's the Savior, do you think that lifestyle is ever going to change? Do you trust that she won't turn you into another Dark One some time in the future if you're on the brink of death again? What if a Storybrooke monster comes into town and kills you while you're on a mission with the Charmings? Your fate is inevitable. Come with me and you can finally be at peace once and for all. No more fighting. No more pain. Just you and me, brother." ...he would take it very seriously. I mean, Hook would have to be completely heartless and inhuman to not even contemplate that option.

[KingOfHearts]

 

...he would take it very seriously. I mean, Hook would have to be completely heartless and inhuman to not even contemplate that option.

It's like Emma choosing whether to move to New York in 3B. As much as the narrative needed her to stay in Storybrooke, everything was telling her leaving was the better option. 

Edited March 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Yeah, except Emma wasn't leaving Storybrooke in 3B until people were out of danger. Hook would just be ditching all of those people in the Underworld. So while I'm actually on board with him choosing to move on to a better place, it needs to happen after they can all leave too. Not that Captain Swan is breaking up. 

[Camera One]

I don't think there's any need to worry... if Hook does decide to move on with Liam, they would truly finally pull off a twist no one could see coming.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yeah, except Emma wasn't leaving Storybrooke in 3B until people were out of danger. Hook would just be ditching all of those people in the Underworld. So while I'm actually on board with him choosing to move on to a better place, it needs to happen after they can all leave too. Not that Captain Swan is breaking up.

I'm not saying he wouldn't stay to help first. He obviously still cares about them, as evidenced by refusing to chisel their names. 

[Camera One]

Maybe they'll finally deal with whether Hook actually wants to live, or whether he wants to move on, as he expressed in "Birth".

[retrograde]

Any thoughts on why Emma's crib is in her house? They had her stare at it way too long for it not to come up again.

[Camera One]

It was probably for the "Isn't the Underworld so wacky and creepy" effect.