Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers: Lalalalala! I can't hear you!

[KingOfHearts]

 

It would be easy to make up some explanation how Zelena's essence materialized into Marion so she could be brought back to Storybrooke.

Sounds like some sort of transporter accident where no witch has gone before.

 

I thought maybe she wasn't really dead at the end of 3B -- there was a theory floated around that Marian was actually Zelena in disguise, and I thought it had some merit -- but then nothing came of it in 3A (unless they're planning some huge reveal in tomorrow's episode).

 

 

If only A&E were that clever. I loved Zelena's concept, and I thought she was severely underused, especially as Regina's sister. If they would have kept her around to develop a relationship with her sis, then Regina's arc would have been helped so much. Anyway, I don't believe Zelena is dead. She's either in Marian or she's stuck in the pendant. She's just waiting to be brought back.

 

 

I agree with retrograde that it seems unlikely they want to revisit Oz again given how disinterested they were in that universe in 4B

I don't think you and I will ever forgive A&E for wrecking Oz, Camera One. ;)

 

 

the writers provided no impact of Zelena's death on Regina, nor do any of the other characters care much about her.

 

This is what makes me mad about Zelena - she was shoehorned in with no real connection to the rest of the show. It wouldn't have mattered if she had never existed.

Edited December 14, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Sneak Peek from "Heroes and Villains".

 

ICE CREAM SHOP

 

EMMA: What a shame she is gone.  She was a hero despite pushing me in front of car.

ANNA: Villains can be heroes if they have love.  

ELSA: Look what I found!  A magic bean in the Vanilla bean container!  Ingrid must have been planning to use this to take us back to Arendelle!

EMMA: Well bye everyone, nice knowing you.

KRISTOFF: Don't forget about me.

 

EVERYONE HUG.  ELSA throws magic bean on the floor, and she, Anna and Kristoff jump through.

 

GRUMPY walks in.

 

GRUMPY: Hey, wait a minute.  What about all of us who want to go back to the Enchanted Forest?

 

TINKERBELLE walks in.

 

TINKERBELLE: So how is the investigation going with the missing fairies?  I miss Mother Superior.

 

EMMA: Who?  

 

Find out what happens next tomorrow on "Heroes and Villains".

Edited December 14, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

So, with the new promo, it looks like a classic showdown between good and evil next half-season. I'm happy to see the Nevengers working together as one again, minus Rumple, but plus Belle. With all that "hero and villain" talk with Regina though, I'm super afraid of her flip flopping. I just can't take another one of those. 4x11 kept her on the fence once again, and at this stage in the game, shouldn't be happening.

 

Maybe now that Belle is single, she'll finally become her own character!... or they'll toss her into Offscreenville, since they don't know how to write for her.

Edited December 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

So are we officially bidding farewell to the fairies?  I feel like so much has been left completely unresolved this episode.  I still don't even know why Hook left that heart felt message for Emma that she never got to hear.  

[Whodunnit]

C'mon show! Make the Sorcerer/Author Walt Disney... You know you want to...

[Rumsy4]

So are we officially bidding farewell to the fairies?  I feel like so much has been left completely unresolved this episode.  I still don't even know why Hook left that heart felt message for Emma that she never got to hear.  

 

I forgot about the Fairies! The hat is with Belle now, I suppose. I'm sure they'll bring the fairies back at some point. Ugh... that heartfelt phone call. Why do the writers keep setting up these things when they never ever resolve them?? 

[KingOfHearts]

We're all confused about the book stuff, but it's getting really hard to go with "it's just a record, not a fate changer" since so many characters believe in it now. Rumple, the Queens of Darkness, Emma... 4B seems to center around Operation Mongoose. If they all find the sorcerer and demands their happy endings, only to find him saying, "You make your own destinies, idiots!" then this major storyline is all for naught. I'm certainly not thrilled about it, since its stupid and contrived and goes against everything the show has stood for in the past, but 4x11 just screamed that we're heading that way.

 

 

I forgot about the Fairies! The hat is with Belle now, I suppose.

I'm so happy Belle is in control of Rumple's stuff now. She can finally begin to clean the crap he's created with everyone. I know the show won't go there, but it's a nice thought. Giving Gepetto his parents back, freeing Gaston and Lumiere, returning stolen items... sigh, Once is too good at missing great material like that.

Edited December 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Instead of alleviating my fears, this episode cemented them.  I don't know how I will be able to take 4B seriously at all with Operation Mongoose being the center of the plans of the new villains, Rumple AND Regina, supported by Emma and Henry.  Given the timing of Star Wars, I suspect the Sorcerer will be Yoda, Obi Wan Kinobe or maybe a sob story version of Darth Vader.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Camera One

[Curio]

If they all find the sorcerer and demands their happy endings, only to find him saying, "You make your own destinies, idiots!" then this major storyline is all for naught.

Well, given they literally just wrapped up Hook's missing heart storyline with a quick 30-second shove and make out scene, I don't think the writers care if any of their major storylines are eventually for naught.

[scarynikki12]

a sob story version of Darth Vader

 

We just need the characters to watch the prequels to accomplish that. 

 

I am legitimately concerned that the author is going to be revealed as having all the power and all the responsibility of the various actions over the series will be erased.  We already have the main characters in agreement that Snow is solely responsible for Daniel's death, that her mother was more evil than Cora, that Neal had no choice but to betray Emma, that Emma saving Marian's life was a bad move, that Henry was wrong to bring Emma to town in the first place even though it broke the most evil Curse ever created, and that the horrors Regina inflicted upon the kingdom aren't nearly as bad as losing Daniel.  We absolutely to not need a character brought in who reveals that every move made was done because it was already written and not of free will.  It's one thing to interrupt the initial meeting of Snow and Charming and work to put them back on course so that Emma doesn't fade from existence.  It's quite another to say: "Regina didn't go into that bar, not because she was afraid of taking a chance, but because an all powerful entity stopped her", "Emma broke the Curse, not because she'd grown to genuinely love and believe in Henry, but because an all powerful entity decreed that it was time", "Regina murdered her father, not because her desire for revenge against a child had consumed her to the point of terrorism, but because an all powerful entity selected him to be sacrificed", "Rumpel let go of Bae's hand, not because he's a coward whose love for power was greater than love for his son, but because an all powerful entity decided to separate them", "Rumpel murdered Milah, not because he was angry that she left him and was also projecting his own shame at abandoning their son onto the situation, but because an all powerful entity marked her for death" and so on.  I'm going to watch 4B, because I am often wrong in my predictions for the shows I watch and I have a hard time believing that the show will actually go so far as to completely remove free will from the characters but seeing Emma embrace Operation Mongoose* is lessening that disbelief.

 

*How has no one on the show realized that Mongooses (Mongeese?) kill Cobras and that that is not a good name for a plan to find a happy ending?

[retrograde]

I can only assume one of the two stops Rumple and Ursula were going to make was for gas and snacks, because isn't Maleficent still under the library in one form or another?

[Camera One]

I can only assume one of the two stops Rumple and Ursula were going to make was for gas and snacks, because isn't Maleficent still under the library in one form or another?

Who knows what BS they will pull out of you know where to explain that crazy dancing skeleton thingy we saw in S2.

[Curio]

We absolutely to not need a character brought in who reveals that every move made was done because it was already written and not of free will.

My biggest fear is that the writers are going to try to make the Operation Mongoose storyline some "deep" and "philosophical" look into theology and predestination. I can already see Adam & Eddy giving interviews about the parallels between people who believe that an all-knowing god has a plan for them with the author of the story book. But surely the writers should know that taking away these characters' free will is a terrible idea, right? I mean, there's a reason Calvinism isn't very popular...

[Camera One]

That's why I'm so nervous.  I can't really see how this can end well.  If it's a case of the author saying (as he should), that he doesn't decide what happens, he just records what happens, then isn't the entire half-season pointless?  Shouldn't someone, anyone, have realized that?   

 

Maybe they'll do that and then say someone who grabs a hold of the empty books can rewrite over what actually happened, and so the "heroes" have to stop that from happening.  Which in essence is basically like changing the past.  Which is apparently against the Laws of Magic.  Except when it's not.  

[Curio]

Maybe they'll do that and then say someone who grabs a hold of the empty books can rewrite over what actually happened, and so the "heroes" have to stop that from happening.

 

You know, I could actually buy that as a good storyline if the villains weren't allowed to change the past. But they could change the future and write their own happy endings without meddling too much with those pesky "laws of magic."

 

And since the writers love copying their past seasons, we'll probably get a snail's pace development about the author and how it all works the entire season, right up until the 2-hour finale where the villains will succeed in creating an alternate universe of bizarro happy endings. Adam & Eddy will rip off It's a Wonderful Life or something, the heroes will put things back to normal at the last second, and the villains will be punished. Cue Camelot in 5A.

[MDKNIGHT]

I think Regina is going to be a double agent by pretending to join the queens of darkness or whatever that trio is called'  I kind of want them to embody the Mean Girls exept on 'Wensdays they where black and Regina points out she wears black all the time.  I can't wait to hear the lame apology Regina gives Maleficent for dragonifying her and then trapping her in the basement of despair.  That's when we'll now she's faking because she never gives real apologies. 

[Serena]

There is literally NO WAY this Author storyline can end well. There are only two possible outcomes:

1. They retcon their own canon, which is that the book records things that have already happened, as evidenced by the S3 finale when it became BLANK when Hook and Emma changed the past.

1b. As part of that retcon, they make the show up to this point basically pointless, because nothing happened because of the characters making choices, but just because some puppet master was ordering them to. It's the ultimate in "Regina is in no way responsible for all the crimes she committed" (however, note that Snow and Emma are still 100% responsible for all their Life Ruining ways)

OR

2. They find the author and he says "I only record what happens, I don't make the choices, DUMMIES" thus rendering a season-long plot meaningless.

[YaddaYadda]

This whole book business really grates.  I mean are A&E and the writers even keeping track of the things they're writing about or did they just decide to change it mid-course.

 

The better message would be, I did terrible things in the past and now I'm trying to change for the better.  But no, the author wrote Regina as evil and decided that she should miss her out on her "destiny" with Robin even though it was clearly her choice.

 

So I'm sure much fuckery will transpire during 4B.  Remember when 3A ended on such a nice note?  I wish I could go back to that fuzzy feeling where I was anticipating 3B with excitement.  Then they fucked it up.

[Dani-Ellie]

I'd rather the season be rendered meaningless than everything that's come before it, in all honesty.

 

Because look, I'd love for this to be a huge villains smackdown. "You know how to get happy endings? By chasing them yourselves. By finding the happiness in what you have, not by manipulating everyone around you and forcing circumstances to fit your purposes. Your happy ending should not be at the expense of others. Your happy ending is yours and yours alone, and the only one who can give it to you is you."

 

Maybe then we can stop having the endless whining and victim blaming and "you ruined my life" and get back to "good will always win."

[Serena]

And you know that by "everyone/villains should get happy endings" they just mean Rumple and Regina (mostly Regina).

Because Ingrid, who was never nearly as villainous as R/R? Nope, lived in misery and then she died.

Zelena? No happy ending.

Pan? Nope.

No one thought THAT was unfair.

And let's not even mention all the HEROES (or generally good people) who didn't get happy endings. Graham? Raped and abused for 30 years and then killed off as soon as he got free. Neal? I didn't like him but he was on the heroes' side, and nope. Queen Eva? Oh, I guess she counts as a villain.

What about Mulan? Oh, but she's bi and a WOC, so who cares right?

[Curio]

Because look, I'd love for this to be a huge villains smackdown. "You know how to get happy endings? By chasing them yourselves. By finding the happiness in what you have, not by manipulating everyone around you and forcing circumstances to fit your purposes. Your happy ending should not be at the expense of others. Your happy ending is yours and yours alone, and the only one who can give it to you is you."

 

Or how about this quote:

"People are going to tell you who you are your whole life. You just got to punch back and say, "no, this is who I am." You want people to look at you differently? Make them. You want to change things? You're going to have to go out there and change them yourself, because there are no fairy godmothers in this world."

 

Now I would like to know where the real Emma Swan went, because she certainly wasn't on my screen last night.

[Mari]

Now I would like to know where the real Emma Swan went, because she certainly wasn't on my screen last night.

Well, Snow cast the second curse, right?   This Emma is a whole lot more like Mary Margaret.  Maybe when she crossed the town line she got her own "cursed" personality, so that she and Margaret could bond over their shared desperation to make Regina happy.

 

Does it  canon?  No.  But the writers don't  care about that, either, so it's as plausible as her deciding that Regina was an awesome person and Emma deserved her abuse.

[KingOfHearts]

So, Robin is alone in the promo. The positive is that it might mean Marian and Roland found their happy ending somewhere, and the "two women" angst might be gone. I hate Outlaw Queen with a burning passion, but I'm really hoping Marian found some satisfaction. Her scene with Regina at Granny's showed just how strong and amazing of a person she is. Very Kathryn.

 

The Six week time jump doesn't seem like a very long time. Six months would align the timeline a little better and get us closer to real time. With the six weeks though, 4B should be in November/December 2013, so we're still a year behind.

Edited December 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

Is it too much to hope that we'll get a tiny itty bitty moment with Emma catching a commercial for the new movie Frozen, starring her BFFs Elsa and Anna?? She could be alternately wisful and all, "OMG serously?!"

[KingOfHearts]

 

Is it too much to hope that we'll get a tiny itty bitty moment with Emma catching a commercial for the new movie Frozen, starring her BFFs Elsa and Anna?? She could be alternately wisful and all, "OMG serously?!"

I've wanted that to happen since the beginning of 4A! At the end, Emma casually walks by a poster for the new movie Frozen with Anna and Elsa on it, then takes a second look. Or in this case, I guess Rumple could have done that in New York.

Edited December 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[retrograde]

Prediction: I will break into this at least once per episode in 4B

 

[Rumsy4]

I rewatched the episode (for the Rumbelle scenes mainly), and hadn't realized that it was not Rumple who had banished Ursula to NYC. So I guess both Ursula and Cruella ended up in the Real World by some other means. Will there be another portal that Rumple had missed, or will it end up being the Sorceror's portal again? It really makes Rumple look like an idiot, doesn't it?

Also, did Rumple never look into his orb and realize that Baelfire was in Neverland? Or did he know and was too afraid of his father to go rescue his son?

[KingOfHearts]

Maybe Ursula had been in Storybrooke, but she got pushed over too?

[Rumsy4]

Maybe Ursula had been in Storybrooke, but she got pushed over too?

 

And Cruella too, maybe? But did they pushed off before or after the Curse broke? Ursula seems to have retained their memories well enough. I don't think they were in Storybrooke, tbh. Judging from the promo, they seem to have never heard of it. We are about to find out the 9 millionth way Rumple could have come to the Land Without Magic, but did not.

[YaddaYadda]

Regarding Ursula, if mermaids can travel across realms then there's no way she can't do it either.  Mal was transported there with the original curse.  Cruella?  Who knows?  She's likely the one who is going to be contrived as hell.

[Rumsy4]

Regarding Ursula, if mermaids can travel across realms then there's no way she can't do it either. 

 

Did they say mermaids can travel to a realm without magic? If Ursula merely swam to NY, there's no reason why she could not have swum back to the EF. I know... I know... the explanation will be contrived as heck.

[YaddaYadda]

Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm always very fuzzy on the rules of magic on this show, but I thought they could do that, could they not?  Ariel traveled from the Enchanted Forest to Neverland without magic, did she not?

[Camera One]

Don't worry, we'll be getting a convoluted flashback about that which may or may not make up new rules to explain this occurrence.

[Rumsy4]

Both the EF and Neverland have magic, and when Ariel came to Storybrooke, it had magic too. So, I guess we don't know if mermaids can travel to a land without magic. Besides, they've demoted Ursula from sea-goddess to sea-witch. So, who knows what powers she's supposed to possess? 

[Camera One]

Speaking of no one knows, no one cares, surely Hook will say something about the Fairies being sucked into the Hat?  Are they still there?  The problem with letting them out, is you also let the Apprentice out, and he's the one who knows where the Sorcerer is (supposedly).  So does that mean poor Blue is on ice for another half-season?

[KingOfHearts]

 

And Cruella too, maybe? But did they pushed off before or after the Curse broke? Ursula seems to have retained their memories well enough. I don't think they were in Storybrooke, tbh. Judging from the promo, they seem to have never heard of it. We are about to find out the 9 millionth way Rumple could have come to the Land Without Magic, but did not.

 

I only suggest that because I really don't want to find out the 9 millionth way, haha. There should be a taxi service for crossing realms now...

[YaddaYadda]

Camera One, I think I read that you're completely unspoiled and don't watch the previews, correct?  Because there was something about that in the preview.  I wish I could do what you do and I did it very well when I was off message board.  But now, I'm just looking for my fix.

 

Regardless of whatever happens with the hat, the writers I feel have sort of fucked Hook over and I don't even think that was their intent.  He left a voice mail for Emma about the hat, about the fake dagger and Rumple took the phone and we have no idea what happened to the message and I doubt it will ever be brought up again.  That single one thing could have just solved the whole nightmare, but then his heart gets taken.

 

Way to screw over the man!

[Mari]

The problem with letting them out, is you also let the Apprentice out, and he's the one who knows where the Sorcerer is (supposedly).  So does that mean poor Blue is on ice for another half-season?

Probably.  I've been desperately hoping that the way the Ursula got to the Magicless World was because the hat ate magic people, sucked their magic, and spit them out there--putting the fairies, etc all there.

 

Based on the set-up for 4B, A&E's proven ability to completely ignore or botch stories they've built up, and the percentage of time I get what I want on this show?

 

Blue's probably stuck in that hat until she's ready to grovel to Regina and sacrifice herself for Operation Mongoose.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Mari

[OnceUponAJen]

Does anyone think that the three Drama Queens could have been hatted and ended up in the Land Without Magic?

Looks like Mari beat me to that theory!

Edited December 17, 2014 by OnceUponAJen

[ParadoxLost]

Does anyone think that the three Drama Queens could have been hatted and ended up in the Land Without Magic?

Looks like Mari beat me to that theory!

 

Actually  no.  I thought it was fairly clear that Rumpel sent them there given that he knew to try to find them with no magic.  Although that theory would make him trying to hat Emma less villainous.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Does anyone think that the three Drama Queens could have been hatted and ended up in the Land Without Magic?

 

I believe Cruella and Ursula were, but not Maleficent. That would explain why Maleficent was alone in the Forbidden Fortress and had Regina as her friend instead. I speculate Lily might be one of the banished as well.

Edited December 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Also, did Rumple never look into his orb and realize that Baelfire was in Neverland?

That's at the top of my unanswered questions list. Neal, who was dumber than a box of hair and had no magical powers, was able to find a magical object in Rumple's castle (which was missing the part of its arsenal that went to Storybrooke), locate Henry, figure out he was in Neverland, and find a way to get there, all in maybe a day. And yet Bae was in Neverland for a couple of centuries and Rumple, with all his power and all his magical objects, never seemed to realize this when he certainly could have made it to Neverland, considering that the very non-magical Hook who doesn't have the ability to spin straw into gold practically managed to commute there, and they established that the giants didn't stop producing magic beans and destroy their stock until within James's lifetime. If Rumple didn't manage to find Bae, he wasn't trying very hard.

[KingOfHearts]

Even if you rationalize that Rumple knew Bae was in Neverland but didn't go there because he was too afraid of Pan, that should have been mentioned in the show onscreen. It's not that hard to do, writers.

[Shanna Marie]

Even if you rationalize that Rumple knew Bae was in Neverland but didn't go there because he was too afraid of Pan, that should have been mentioned in the show onscreen.

Yeah, that was part of their overall failure in dealing with the reconciliation between Neal/Bae and Rumple. They were in a rush to get to the "I love you, Papa" moment and skipped over the serious stuff, like the fact that Rumple hadn't changed and was still clinging to power, the fact that Rumple had engineered this entire curse that disrupted hundreds of lives to get to Neal, the fact that Bae/Neal was in Neverland all that time and could have been reached, and the fact that Rumple had killed Bae's mother. Archie could have been busy 24/7 for years helping them work through all that. But since it was all conveniently swept aside, the reconciliation felt awfully shallow.

 

So I'm not holding my breath about anything really being dealt with between Belle and Rumple. He'll come back to town, do one good thing, and she'll be convinced he changed. He's a regular character, so he'll continue to live in the same town with Hook, the fairies and everyone else he's hurt.

 

Are we sure this show isn't written by robots who don't understand human emotions and the way people react to events?

[scarynikki12]

I have many thoughts on what I'd like to see and what I expect will happen in 4B but the show will completely disappoint me if they don't find a way to incorporate the Cruella de Vil song. They restrained themselves with Let it Go but Cruella's song is less played and shouldn't make anyone crazy.  In the same way at least. 

[ShadowFacts]

Another way they can go with Rumpel's inevitable return is that Belle does not want him back, or he does not want to be back with her after what she did to him.  Throw a pregnancy in the mix (this is a soap after all), and it can go more different ways (Rumpel's baby fixation, do-over of Neal, Clare I mean Belle and her bay-bee).   Just having status quo ante would be the most boring and expected path, and drama-free.  Admittedly, a toss-up as to if they will actually revert, but they do like angst. 

[RadioGirl27]

I really, really hope that Rumple and Belle never go back together or, if they do, it's in the final season of the show. The damage has been too big to solve it in 11 episodes.

Edited December 18, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[Mari]

I really, really hope that Rumple and Belle never go back together or, if they do, it's in the final season of the show. The damage has been too big to solve it in 11 episodes.

Yes, but this is the same writing team that thought the last episode of 4B was great and people were just mad that there wasn't enough kissing. The same writing team that allow no reasonable emotional reaction from their characters.

I'll be amazed if they don't have Belle stop Rumple with their love by the end of the season.

[KingOfHearts]

My brain is still processing the Author plot. It's positively absurd, but I'm trying to figure out what exactly the show is attempting to say. Please forgive me for the stupidity I'm dissecting here.

 

I'm thinking maybe the Author doesn't change all fate, but only the paths of villains. He's out to prevent bad people from getting happy endings. Rumple attempts to live with power and a wife in New York? Author places gauntlet in specific place so the wife will find it, then realize her marriage is a sham. Rumple's happy ending has been prevented. Regina finally finds a boyfriend to replace her long lost love? The Author puts the events in motion for Marian's return and subsequently Robin's departure. This is how it appears to work to me, if the "villains don't get happy endings" theory is true.

 

Oh gosh. The Author sounds so much like a combination of Jacob and Man in Black from Lost.

 

 

I really, really hope that Rumple and Belle never go back together or, if they do, it's in the final season of the show. The damage has been too big to solve it in 11 episodes.

You don't want to be around me when they're reunited. I'll be rapidly punching pillows, and I don't want anyone in the crossfire.

Edited December 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Oh gosh. The Author sounds so much like a combination of Jacob and Man in Black from Lost.

 

And the finale will be Emma waking up from a coma induced sleep where she dreamt all of this.  They're going to Dallas this, aren't they?  

 

All jokes aside, when they brought up the Author and the Sorcerer, all I could think of was Jacob and Man in Black sitting not far from the beach playing their chess game.  I wish A&E had a bit more imagination than recycle plots from another show.

 

Besides, isn't that plagiarism or something?