One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Taryn74]

I don't think the drinking was intended to be seen as problematical, and most of the time I gloss over it, but there were a few occasions where it stood out to me.

Sookie as well as Jackson's entire family were OTT drunk in ADFKT.

Jackson was apparently drunk enough to take off his shirt and play the drums on his belly in Bracebridge Dinner (which, why???  That didn't seem like a 'get stupid drunk' kind of dinner to me, at all.  Also, there were kids and teens there!  And Mrs. Kim!)  Also I think Bootsy had to ask Clara how many beers he had drank.  

Lorelai drank an entire blender full of margaritas after her last business class.

Lorelai got drunk enough at Emily's "bachelorette party" to mess up her seating arrangements.  Babette was sleeping it off on the couch when they left the next morning.  Emily was in fine form, too.  "Isn't she like a chimp, Gypsy?"

Lorelai had to be cut off from the fun flask at the Harvard/Yale game.

Luke was drunk enough to fall climbing in Lorelai's window after his argument with Jess.  "I felt like Kirk."

 

I think there were more but those are the ones that kind of stood out to me.

[shron17]

I did notice more drinking in the revival to the point where it seemed that Lorelai and Rory drank more alcohol than coffee.  Which was probably at least partially because Rory was older.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

On 7/20/2017 at 3:05 PM, forever said:

Typing out that paragraph reminded me that I agree with people who think Lorelai and Logan are very similar.  And if Lorelai hadn't had responsibility thrust upon her at such a young age in the form of an unexpected pregnancy, I think Lorelai would have been even more similar to Chris and Logan, who were more frivolous, impulsive, reckless and carefree in large part because their lifestyles afforded them that luxury. I will compete for the queen of unpopularity by adding that I think Luke and Dean are very similar too. "Guy's guy" types, both into fixing things, sports and outdoor activities, both by their own admission "simple", what you see is what you get type of people as opposed to the rest of Gilmore Girls' somewhat more complex characters, both are smart about pragmatic matters though neither is intellectual or very academically inclined, both are genuinely content with a no frills, small town life in a way that many of Gilmore Girls' other characters wouldn't be, and both are prone to jealousy and have problems controlling their tempers. They just always reminded me a lot of each other. I always suspected one reason Luke was so over the top in his dislike of and rudeness towards Dean was that he saw  things in Dean that reminded him of himself, and maybe not the parts of himself he likes most.

I promised the friend I watch Gilmore Girls with that I would ask the experts here your opinions on a pressing issue we were discussing: if the next "revival" were structured as a murder mystery, which frankly I think would be a vast improvement over what we got, which three characters would you most want to see as the victims? These are the sort of things we mull over while drinking as much coffee as Lorelai. :)

YES!  I always thought Luke and Dean were very similar and after seeing you point it out, I completely agree about Lorelei and Logan and Chris.  I can definitely see the similarities.

As far as which 3 characters I would want to be the victims in a murder mystery, I'm going to go with 1) Jess, 2) Zack, 3) Morty.  Not that I have anything against Morty, but I think it would be interesting seeing how the town responded to him being murdered.  Had Edward Herman not passed away, I might have Pennelyn be number 3 just to see Emily dance a little jig and then worry that she might be a suspect.

[fluffy]

Bless this thread! I have a few that are so seriously unpopular that I'm not sure I'd risk voicing them anywhere other than the internet :-) 

I just don't feel the love for Luke. When I started reading this thread a few days ago, I was so relieved to see that a few other people feel the same way. In general, the Luke love is so pervasive -- online, among the Gilmore Girls watchers I know in real life, even among critics who seem to currently dislike nearly every other aspect of this show -- that I actually feel like something is legitimately wrong with me for not loving Luke or his relationship with Lorelai and for seeing a lot of what he does as really problematic. Whenever I rewatch an episode, I still try to enjoy him as much as the rest of the world, not just because I want to fit in with the 99% majority of the GG fandom who loves him but because objectively speaking I probably have more in common with Luke than any character other than possibly Rory. I should relate to him or at least appreciate him more than I do. On most other TV shows, I zero in on the cranky, snarky introvert with a secretly good heart and declare them my favorite character. I've seen most of this show's episodes about a handful of times and still haven't figured out if my failure to like Luke is primarily about the writing, the casting and acting of Scott Patterson, or some previously undiagnosed genetic defect on my part. ;) Aside from a few great individual moments, he's boring and one dimensional to me on his best days and a seriously unpleasant, churlish, petulant and angry lout on his worst days. Like someone said a while back, it's nice that he shows he cares by fixing things around the house or helping in a crisis. But the other 360 or so days a year with him would consist of him constantly angry for no valid reason, complaining and moping, always annoyed at life in general or you in particular.  

I loved the discussion about how in the Palladinos' quirky yet often cynical world there appear to be two basic "types" of men: angry, proudly rude misanthropes who hate everything except (sometimes) the woman they want to be with and pampered party boys whose superficial charm can't be trusted. Apparent "normal" nice guys who don't fall immediately into either category, like poor Paul from the revival, are dismissed as unworthy of consideration. 

But here is where I whisper the opinion that's even more unpopular than not liking Luke: I thought Rory and Logan had the closest thing to a happy, loving relationship on the show. Obviously there were problems and a few things about them individually and as a unit that makes me cringe, as one expects from TV romance in general and Amy Palladino's writing in particular. The revival seemed to be Amy's way of hammering home that we're not supposed to like and trust Logan, though I once again came away with opinions I don't think Amy wants me to have, because the revival convinced me they have an even deeper connection than I'd realized, clearly love each other and are just making terrible chocies right now because they're a mess (and so was the revival). I didn't even want to like Logan - he reminded me of the type of guy I despise in real life - but he soon emerged as the best part of the show's final three seasons. I saw infinitely more warmth, chemistry and joy between them than LL had on even their better days. I agree with the people who said they're the one couple on the show who aren't too opposite to be compatible but different enough to challenge each other. I just thought they were good to and for each other. I gather we're supposed to think of their relationship as just Logan partying his life away while Rory tagged blandly and enjoyed his occasional grand romantic gestures while ignoring that the reltionship had no real substance, but that's just not how it came off to me. What they had felt real, and they communicated better than almost any other couple. Logan seemed to like Rory precisely because she was more serious and had depth that the other women he met had been lacking. (People here might not agree with Logan's assessment of Rory, but I think that's how he saw her!) I don't see it as him negatively influencing her or her "taming" him. They came into each other's lives at a time when both were ready to change anyway: she wanted more adventure and he wanted something deeper and more real.

Sorry for the rambling, but I just have very strong feelings about Logan/Rory and the fact that I'm one of the very few adults in the world who still wants them to be together! Luke/Lorelai are the couple I feel like I should ship while Logan/Rory are the kind I usually don't like, but somehow I came away from this show feeling exactly the opposite.

I don't have anything against Jess other than that he's that same negative, rude and angry type who Amy Palladino seems very fond of, but he and Rory did have chemistry, and at least Jess had some intelligence and a few layers that make him more interesting and enjoyable than his uncle. He also matured a lot, though it's frustrating that the only Palladino characters who grow and mature are the ones who are allowed to do it off screen. All due respect to everyone who loves Rory and Jess, but I just prefer Logan for Rory. I think it's that I think she's very introverted, anxious and regimented by nature who benefits from a cheerful, adventurous and spotaneous extrovert. I agree that Logan and Lorelai are similar, and maybe it's because the Lorelai/Rory relationship is my favorite thing about the show that I love the Logan/Rory dynamic too. And Rory and Logan clearly had mutually strong feelings in the revival, while with Rory and Jess there seemed such an imbalance, with Jess having the kind of feelings for Rory that she doesn't appear to have had for him in years, so at this point I just would rather Jess find someone who's as into him as he's into her. And I just don't see Rory fitting into Jess's lifestyle. She's mainstream, traditional and conventional in a lot of ways that Jess isn't and never will be. (That's not an insult to either, just something I see as making them less compatible)

Sending hugs to everyone who said they thought from very early on that Rory should have been an English lit teacher or something similar. You all have done a great job of analyzing why she doesn't seem like she'd be either a good journalist or a happy one, and the revival drove that home whether it intended to or not. I feel like Rory (or just Alexis Bledel?) always lit up when reading and discussing fiction. It was always when she was most animated and alive. Someone I know jokes how because she doesn't ship Rory/Dean, Rory/Jess or Rory/Logan, her one true "ship" is Rory/books because that's when Rory seems at her happiest and best. 

Emily, Lorelai and Rory are kind of terrible, but I still love them anyway. Come to think of it, that sums up my opinion of the entire show. 

Edited August 2, 2017 by fluffy

[Katy M]

I'm not sure if this is unpopular or not, but I was thinking about it, and I don't think I like Sookie.

[chitowngirl]

I liked Sookie in the beginning when she and Lorelai were real friends and had heart to heart talks. Then she became a caricature and so over-the-top.

[Guest]

I liked Season 1-2 Sookie.

[fluffy]

I often love Sookie more than I love Lorelai! She has a lot of the bubbly, vivacious enthusiasm of Lorelai without being quite as petty and immature. I think she got worse as the series went on, but so did almost everyone :)

[Kohola3]

I agree with fluffy. I always liked Sookie even when ASP turned her into a goofball.  I loved her enthusiasm when Luke and Lorelai finally hooked up, she was genuinely happy for her friend and knew all along that it was destiny.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

On 8/2/2017 at 5:58 PM, fluffy said:

 

But here is where I whisper the opinion that's even more unpopular than not liking Luke: I thought Rory and Logan had the closest thing to a happy, loving relationship on the show. Obviously there were problems and a few things about them individually and as a unit that makes me cringe, as one expects from TV romance in general and Amy Palladino's writing in particular. The revival seemed to be Amy's way of hammering home that we're not supposed to like and trust Logan, though I once again came away with opinions I don't think Amy wants me to have, because the revival convinced me they have an even deeper connection than I'd realized, clearly love each other and are just making terrible chocies right now because they're a mess (and so was the revival). I didn't even want to like Logan - he reminded me of the type of guy I despise in real life - but he soon emerged as the best part of the show's final three seasons. I saw infinitely more warmth, chemistry and joy between them than LL had on even their better days. I agree with the people who said they're the one couple on the show who aren't too opposite to be compatible but different enough to challenge each other. I just thought they were good to and for each other. I gather we're supposed to think of their relationship as just Logan partying his life away while Rory tagged blandly and enjoyed his occasional grand romantic gestures while ignoring that the reltionship had no real substance, but that's just not how it came off to me. What they had felt real, and they communicated better than almost any other couple. Logan seemed to like Rory precisely because she was more serious and had depth that the other women he met had been lacking. (People here might not agree with Logan's assessment of Rory, but I think that's how he saw her!) I don't see it as him negatively influencing her or her "taming" him. They came into each other's lives at a time when both were ready to change anyway: she wanted more adventure and he wanted something deeper and more real.

 

No lies told.

I wasn't that surprised they were still in each other's life in the revival. Their breakup in the OS was more about Rory ending the show single than the fact that their relationship had run its course. That is why it felt so abrupt.

As much as I have complained about the nature of their relationship in the revival, I wouldn't have any guy in Logan's shoes.   As messed up they were, them still being together further drove home the point that they are soulmates. With the full circle completed and fours words uttered, there's nothing standing in their way.  

Anyone who says otherwise, well 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[andromeda331]

Part of me wondered if Rory was over Logan because he and Lorelai made their peace. No one liked Dean at first although he and Lorelai got along soon, Richard was the whole out until nearly the end of season two. By that point Rory was more into Jess. By the time Logan and Lorelai talk was Rory over Logan? She and Paris had that talk where Paris asked if Logan moved to San Francisco and she got the fellowship which would she chose. She naturally chose the fellowship, and Paris ending with "sometimes choosing alone is choosing to be a part". It is kind of funny that it comes up after Logan and Lorelai talked. Gee, Rory do you have a problem with your family finally coming around to the guy your dating?

[Katy M]

12 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Part of me wondered if Rory was over Logan because he and Lorelai made their peace. No one liked Dean at first although he and Lorelai got along soon, Richard was the whole out until nearly the end of season two. By that point Rory was more into Jess. By the time Logan and Lorelai talk was Rory over Logan? She and Paris had that talk where Paris asked if Logan moved to San Francisco and she got the fellowship which would she chose. She naturally chose the fellowship, and Paris ending with "sometimes choosing alone is choosing to be a part". It is kind of funny that it comes up after Logan and Lorelai talked. Gee, Rory do you have a problem with your family finally coming around to the guy your dating?

Maybe she's the kind of girl who likes forbidden fruit.  Wasn't there a scene somewhere where Lorelei said she was afraid that every decision she had made was because she thought her parents would disapprove?  I don't really remember most of it, but I do know it devolved into wondering if that was the only reason she liked Pop Tarts  Maybe the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

[stillsearching74]

*cracks knuckles and dons kevlar vest*

I still love this this show. It's deeply imperfect but the first four seasons are still on balance my favorite seasons of any show.  

Speaking of things that are deeply imperfect but still perennial favorites: I still love Rory, Jess and Rory/Jess. They are among the two or three fictional couples who I actually believe are soulmates despite usually claiming I don't even believe in soulmates. There are approximately two million very legitimate reasons why people may dislike him, her or them or just feel like that ship has long since sailed ("it's in Fiji by now!"), and I'll acknowledge the validity of those arguments while still loving them with all of my crazy heart.  

I enjoy Luke and I appreciate Lorelai a lot as a character even though she drives me crazy, but I only ship them romantically in the show's first season. That's when I saw them as most compatible and with the most romantic chemistry. I sometimes think I'd still ship them if they'd gotten together then, though another part of me suspects Amy Sherman-Palladino might have ruined them even more as a couple if she'd had her full six seasons to do it rather than just S5 and S6. As it is, I am mostly indifferent to them. 

The arguments about why Logan is a great character and decent guy are compelling, and some of them convinced me to reevaluate my own biases against him. But here's the thing: I still just don't like him. I probably should, but I don't. He always comes off like a condescending, smug, slick, slightly slimy guy to me.  He and Rory sometimes had what I guess is a decent (decent by Gilmore Girls' low standards) relationship, but I just never bought into it. I feel like with Logan and his world she was escaping who she really is rather than discovering it. She didn't often seem fully happy and comfortable to me, though whether that's a result of the writing or AB's limitations as an actress remains a mystery. (I'll admit that one of the reasons Rory/Jess seem so believably, naturally  connected to me probably has to do with Milo and Alexis being in love in real life, so AB didn't have to stretch as much as she did around Jared or Matt).  I hope to be a part of this community so want to stress that I do understand why many love Logan/Rogan. I just can't help disliking him and most of their scenes together - it's a visceral reaction, and not actually one that has anything to do with Logan's wealth and status. It's like real life people - some characters and relationships just elicit a positive response, investment and/or affection in us and others provoke just the opposite even if we know rationally that they're not all that bad. Logan/Rogan are in the latter category for me.

And I despise the Life and Death Brigade. I don't think they're lighthearted, surreal and quirky fun like we're supposed to.  Their antics don't entertain me. Their classroom prank in Pushkin wasn't even a little bit clever or funny, and the fact that they're still like this as adults in the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad revival is seriously embarrassing rather than charming to me. They're just entitled, annoying, obnoxious and gross.  I truly do not feel that way because they happen to be wealthy. I grew up around some people who were very wealthy and others who were very much not and, unlike Amy Sherman Palldino apparently does, I don't believe that socioeconomic status is the chief or even extremely significant factor in determining someone's behavior and personality, so I don't usually make those kind of sweeping generalizations. But regardless of money and ASP's often strange ideas about class in contemporary America, I just hate the Life and Death Brigade characters and am with the people who don't think it's in character for Rory to enjoy being around them for even one night, let alone three years and apparently on and off in her adult life too. That doesn't mean I think we should have watched Rory sit alone in her room with a book for the final three seasons of the show, but there are lots of interesting, entertaining ways to show her becoming more adventurous, daring and experimental without making her suddenly and inexplicably enchanted by exactly the sort of obnoxious, shallow jerks she always hated. 

The only time I even sort of liked Rogan was in Season 7, which is not coincidentally when ASP wasn't even writing them. 

Speaking of season 7, I think it's nowhere near up to par with the show's first four seasons but better than most of season 5 and 6 and light years ahead of that revival, which I'm still trying to erase from my memory. 

Season 1 would have been a lot better to me if Max hadn't been in it.  I even prefer Rory/Dean to Lorelai/Max, which I know makes little sense. 

If unwritten but strictly enforced TV rules didn't mandate that Luke/Lorelai had to get together and if Jason had been written as a truly viable option rather than clear cannon fodder from the get go, I think  Jason was definitely the best match for Lorelai. 

Lane is awesome, but her band is the worst. The only one I like as a character is Brian, and their music is an argument for why some wise and compassionate person invented the mute button. 

Someone above mentioned that they're the only person left who still cares about and relates to Rory Gilmore despite the revival (and last three seasons of the original series?), so I wanted to assure him/her that there are two of us! 

Edited August 6, 2017 by stillsearching74

[chitowngirl]

I agree with the above post SO much! I always thought Rory/Jess and Lorelai/Jason were the best matches.

I thought Logan, who had his good qualities, was just a more mature Tristan.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, stillsearching74 said:

And I despise the Life and Death Brigade. I don't think they're lighthearted, surreal and quirky fun like we're supposed to.

I totally agree.  They come off as rich, entitled brats who don't have any obstacles (this isn't the word I want, but I can't think of a better one) in their lives, so they have to invent artificial ones.  All while acting superior to those who just have more mundane everyday struggles.

 

1 hour ago, stillsearching74 said:

Season 1 would have been a lot better to me if Max hadn't been in it.  I even prefer Rory/Dean to Lorelai/Max, which I know makes little sense. 

I think Max needs tweaking.  first of all, he should have been a history teacher, so that Rory's needing to cram all those dates in her head for a test made sense.  Second of all, he shouldn't have been so pushy.  When Lorelei said no for a date, he should have taken no for an answer.  Lorelei could have changed her mind on her own.  He was practically stalkerish.  Then, I can't remember how much was him and how much was Lorelei, but either way, kissing her at Chilton after she broke up with him, was the dumbest of dumb ideas ever. 

 

1 hour ago, stillsearching74 said:

If unwritten but strictly enforced TV rules didn't mandate that Luke/Lorelai had to get together and if Jason had been written as a truly viable option rather than clear cannon fodder from the get go, I think  Jason was definitely the best match for Lorelai. 

My feelings for Jason pretty much match your feelings of Logan.  I hate hate hate him.  I think we're supposed to see him as quirky and rigid in maybe a sort of OCD way.  But, I just got weird and jerky.  Although Lorelei can also be weird and jerky, so I guess if we're talking good matches, you could be right.  But, I couldn't believe that he seemed honestly surprised that Lorelei couldn't be with a guy who was suing her father.   

1 hour ago, stillsearching74 said:

Lane is awesome, but her band is the worst. The only one I like as a character is Brian, and their music is an argument for why some wise and compassionate person invented the mute button. 

I didn't like the music either, but I did like all the bandmates.  Dave was a sweet first boyfriend for Lane.  Brian was just a nice goofball who was actually a good friend when they needed him to be.  Gil was just trying to get a second chance after he gave it up for a while to have a family.  OK, Zach wasn't my favorite, but I didn't dislike him. 

[tarotx]

I personally Love Rory and Logan together. They just spark on screen for me. Chemistry is subjective...

I think Jess was a condescending jerk who was only nice to Rory and sometimes Luke. If he was rich he would be accused of being an elitist (he treated people as less than himself imo). I always felt Rory was hiding away with Jess since he didn't want to do anything. I mean as a boyfriend. Before hand, he got Rory to take chances (some inadvertently). He tried to get Rory thinking if rather or not her choices in life were right. As a crush and Luke's nephew, Jess might have been good for Rory. As a Boyfriend, he didn't care where her head was or if she felt safe. 

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Katy M said:

Maybe she's the kind of girl who likes forbidden fruit.  Wasn't there a scene somewhere where Lorelei said she was afraid that every decision she had made was because she thought her parents would disapprove?  I don't really remember most of it, but I do know it devolved into wondering if that was the only reason she liked Pop Tarts  Maybe the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Maybe she is. Your right Lorelai said she only liked Pop Tarts in Lorelai's First Cotillion I think that was also the episode after she told her parents she and Luke weren't together anymore and her parents didn't react. She was expecting them to say something and told Rory the next day she'd been making every decision the opposite of her parents. She ate her first Poptart  because she knew her parents would disapprove. To be fair to her parents in that episode when she asked why they weren't reaction they admitted they didn't really know what she wanted. If they did she'd be mad. Which is true. I kind of wish the conversation happened a few seasons before because it could have been a good turning point or something to build on. Richard and Emily learn and not react like they normal would especially Emily leaving Lorelai to reevaluate her life. The fact it comes so late and after we've seen Emily attempting to break her and Luke up and the dinner where Emily insults Luke and the golf game where Richard tries to take over his life so he'll be "presentable" in their world. Or maybe we could have skipped those things all together.

[andromeda331]

I still don't think any of the three guys are the one for Rory.  Dean was nice first boyfriend a good start for a girl so shy in the first season but I didn't see them ending up together only dating for a season or two. I would have been fine if they broke up in the end of season one or beginning of season two. They didn't have a lot in common. I agree with all those who hate Jess and all of those who hate Logan. They were both jerks. I guess that's Rory's type? Jess was jerk to everyone but Rory and occasionally Luke.  I didn't like Rory chasing after Jess while not breaking up with Dean and then being shocked when Dean broke up with her. Really Rory? Your surprised? You've been mooning over another boy for months, and your surprised your boyfriend's not cool with that? I wish Dean dumped her towards the end of season two when he realized at the end of that one episode when he sadly says Rory likes Jess. Break up with her then. Also, Rory your boyfriend calling you a million times and you can't figure out why? Nothing you can do? Maybe stop chasing after another boy. Or break up with Dean. I thought Jess and Rory were a crappy couple. Jess not wanting to go the festival because he now had Rory (how charming, I've always dreamed of a boy telling me that) but changing his tune when Dean was going. Not calling or making real plans. Rory really wasn't any better she complained constantly about how Jess wasn't like Dean. Dean would call, Dean would go to the festivals with her. Rory your not dating Dean. Why didn't you call Jess when he didn't show up? Tell him when you called you want real plans? You have no problem chasing him while dating someone else but a phone call is too hard for you?  In that same hockey episode Rory and Dean talk and Rory really sounds like she never went to any of Dean's games.  Was he playing all this time and she never one when to one of his games? That's crappy Rory. Why is she upset that Dean's dating someone else? Oh, right because she doesn't have a fall back guy.  Dean and Rory's affair in season four and five? Rory didn't even love him she only went after him because there was no one chasing her and she was having a hard time adjusting to Yale. Then to start chasing after Logan while with Dean?  Logan was a jerk. His friends were jerks. Naturally, that impressed Rory, who ditched Dean for him and Marty, two boys this time. Pretending she didn't know why Logan was acting that way around her. Or surprised that Marty liked her too. Really? After going to him, convincing him to have that movie night, dressing up for him and getting his favorite snacks? Then bailing on it because Logan showed up. Logan was a jerk, his friends were jerks.  Rory crying because he didn't call her. Cheating on her with a bridal party because he though they were broken up so what does Rory have to say after every fight their not broken up so he knows their not and won't go sleep with a dozen women? Swoon.

 Jess was better in season six  and Logan was in season seven well until his company went under and he refused to answer calls from his daddy. Yes, your father's a jerk but he's also the one cleaned up your mess.  But I still don't see them as being the ones. Jess was doing well at his small printing press did Rory want to move to Philadelphia and work there? Or for a Philly newspaper? What did they have in common? Same with Logan. Did Rory wanted to marry him and continue to live in his world? Or did she want to go all over the world working as a journalist? The main problem with all of this couples is I have no idea what Rory wants. She was in Logan's world was that what she wanted? Does she want to stay home and watch movies with Lorelai? We never see what Rory wants.  What kind of life she wants?  Where does she want to live? What does she want to do? 

[Rachel81]

2 hours ago, tarotx said:

I personally Love Rory and Logan together. They just spark on screen for me. Chemistry is subjective...

I think Jess was a condescending jerk who was only nice to Rory and sometimes Luke. If he was rich he would be accused of being an elitist (he treated people as less than himself imo). I always felt Rory was hiding away with Jess since he didn't want to do anything. I mean as a boyfriend. Before hand, he got Rory to take chances (some inadvertently). He tried to get Rory thinking if rather or not her choices in life were right. As a crush and Luke's nephew, Jess might have been good for Rory. As a Boyfriend, he didn't care where her head was or if she felt safe. 

Hear, hear! 

Jess wasn't good for Rory at all. And when someone (Rory?) brought up the kinds of things he did before they were together, he even admitted that he didn't have to do them anymore because he "got" her. So disgusting. And the way he always left her hanging, despite making plans, resonates with me as an ex used to do that to me all the time. Totally selfish and self-serving, with no regard for the feelings of the other person. So to say that Jess cares about Rory just isn't true, or he wouldn't torture her like that.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Rachel81

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Dean was nice first boyfriend a good start for a girl so shy in the first season but I didn't see them ending up together only dating for a season or two. I would have been fine if they broke up in the end of season one or beginning of season two. They didn't have a lot in common

I agree.  And that doesn't make Dean a bad guy.  High school sweethearts getting married and living happily ever after is fairly rare.  Mostly because you are just discovering who you are at that age and therefore are unlikely to correctly pick someone who will be a great match for life.

 

9 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

In that same hockey episode Rory and Dean talk and Rory really sounds like she never went to any of Dean's games.  Was he playing all this time and she never one when to one of his games?

She went to his baseball games. Some of them anyway.  Maybe Dean only played hockey senior year.  Maybe they compromised.  "I'll go to your baseball games, but not yur hockey games."  "OK, I'll go to your plays and other performances, but not your debates." 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

2 hours ago, Rachel81 said:

Hear, hear! 

Jess wasn't good for Rory at all. And when someone (Rory?) brought up the kinds of things he did before they were together, he even admitted that he didn't have to do them anymore because he "got" her. So disgusting. And the way he always left her hanging, despite making plans, resonates with me as an ex used to do that to me all the time. Totally selfish and self-serving, with no regard for the feelings of the other person. So to say that Jess cares about Rory just isn't true, or he wouldn't torture her like that.

But hey now they share some interest and he calls her out on her shit. (The latter justification is gross but unsurprising: take a look at society)

Therefore they are meant to be.

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

The main problem with all of this couples is I have no idea what Rory wants. She was in Logan's world was that what she wanted? Does she want to stay home and watch movies with Lorelai? We never see what Rory wants.  What kind of life she wants?  Where does she want to live? What does she want to do? 

She stated exactly what she wanted to do when she turned down his marriage proposal. Maybe you should rewatch those scenes if you have all these questions about what she wanted?

[andromeda331]

10 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

But hey now they share some interest and he calls her out on her shit. (The latter justification is gross but unsurprising: take a look at society)

Therefore they are meant to be.

She stated exactly what she wanted to do when she turned down his marriage proposal. Maybe you should rewatch those scenes if you have all these questions about what she wanted?

 I know she turned down Logan but she also suggested they do long distance which Logan said no too. Rory wasn't saying no to the relationship just getting married then. To me Rory really only took on the lifestyles of people around her. When she dates Logan she becomes a part of his world and his friends. What he wants to do. Does she really want to drink and party all the time? Or did she just go along with it? She's very passive in her relationships. That makes it hard for me to see what she really wants in a guy.  

[stillsearching74]

Quote

. When she dates Logan she becomes a part of his world and his friends. What he wants to do. Does she really want to drink and party all the time? Or did she just go along with it?

That's one major reason why I didn't like Rogan. Rory just didn't seem like herself. Her real self, which I agree she had trouble identifying and embracing throughout the series, as evidenced by how she seemed to change depending on who she was dating and which stronger personalities she happened to be around. People can argue that Rogan did bring out her real self and it was just not the self I personally wanted to see. And I'm not holding Logan responsible for Rory's choices (stealing a yacht and dropping out of Yale because you're criticized, Rory? Seriously?!?!) or the fact that she's such a chameleon, but the bottom line was that Rory seemed like a different person to me while she was with him, and it's not a person I related to or found likable.  Even before doubling down on the 'Logan is Rory's Christopher' thing, which unlike a lot of people here I do see some merit to, ASP said something about how Rogan is more of a charming, fun adventure and that they don't exactly have deep conversations.  Not exactly what you need from a lifelong partner. That's part of why I mentioned that their relationship felt like a way through which Rory was escaping her real self rather than discovering it.

I wanted to reiterate that I respect that so many people disagree. It's great if you ship Rogan, or if you're with me on shipping literati, or you don't like any of the partners for Rory. It's even great if you happen to ship Rory/Dean! In the end, all the many different perceptions and opinions are what makes being a fan such an interesting and often eye opening experience for me. 

There are more substantive reasons to love or dislike Logan, but a very shallow one mentioned awhile back has really stuck with me: that nearly indelible smirk.  Is it supposed to be charming? Because to me it comes across as so smug, arrogant and smarmy, and like someone else said makes it harder for me to believe he's ever being fully sincere regardless of what he happens to be saying at the time.  I can't even find Logan as handsome as most do because of that smirk. 

I also wanted to mention that Kirk is incredibly annoying and there was way too much of him, but that Lulu was awesome. Maybe it's just that I think she must be some sort of saint for putting up with Kirk's Kirk-ness! 

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, stillsearching74 said:

I also wanted to mention that Kirk is incredibly annoying and there was way too much of him,

I agree with everything you said except for the fact that I love Kirk. 

[stillsearching74]

@Katy M, that settles it, my new goal is to write a Kirk/Lulu ficlet in your honor! 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, stillsearching74 said:

@Katy M, that settles it, my new goal is to write a Kirk/Lulu ficlet in your honor! 

Put Cat Kirk in it, too.  LOL.

[glorie]

What does Rory really want?

Well, I believe, that Rory actually wants to be a very successful career woman.

But there is a problem. Rory is overachiever in so many areas, but she's not really very talented for journalist. She's more or less introvert, she doesn't have a journalistic instinct and her writing skills are maybe not bad, but they are also not exceptional (some of her articles at Yale newspaper were not too good). I'm not even sure, that she really likes such a vagabond lifestyle.

If Rory has chosen more suitable profession, she might have less problems with her relationships too. She could compare her new lifestyle with Logan's and Jess's lifestyles. She would know, who really fit into her new life now.

Edited August 7, 2017 by glorie

[Rachel81]

1 hour ago, glorie said:

What does Rory really want?

Well, I believe, that Rory actually wants to be a very successful career woman.

But there is a problem. Rory is overachiever in so many areas, but she's not really very talented for journalist. She's more or less introvert, she doesn't have a journalistic instinct and her writing skills are maybe not bad, but they are also not exceptional (some of her articles at Yale newspaper were not too good). I'm not even sure, that she really likes such a vagabond lifestyle.

If Rory has chosen more suitable profession, she might have less problems with her relationships too. She could compare her new lifestyle with Logan's and Jess's lifestyles. She would know, who really fit into her new life now.

I think she decided at a young age that she wanted to be a journalist, so she never bothered to consider what other options she might be better suited for. Goes along with the commentary on her passive personality. "Well, I said I'll be this, so I'll just be that" and then she quits at the first sign of difficulty. She can't think for herself that there might be a better future for her.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, glorie said:

What does Rory really want?

Well, I believe, that Rory actually wants to be a very successful career woman.

But there is a problem. Rory is overachiever in so many areas, but she's not really very talented for journalist. She's more or less introvert, she doesn't have a journalistic instinct and her writing skills are maybe not bad, but they are also not exceptional (some of her articles at Yale newspaper were not too good). I'm not even sure, that she really likes such a vagabond lifestyle.

If Rory has chosen more suitable profession, she might have less problems with her relationships too. She could compare her new lifestyle with Logan's and Jess's lifestyles. She would know, who really fit into her new life now.

 

2 hours ago, Rachel81 said:

I think she decided at a young age that she wanted to be a journalist, so she never bothered to consider what other options she might be better suited for. Goes along with the commentary on her passive personality. "Well, I said I'll be this, so I'll just be that" and then she quits at the first sign of difficulty. She can't think for herself that there might be a better future for her.

Both really seem correct. Rory decided she wanted to be a journalist and never once stopped to consider anything else. Just going along with it, at the same time she doesn't have a journalistic instincts. But she also doesn't really try. She doesn't really chase any stories. The closest was about the LDB but all she really did was some research and tell Logan she'd follow him.  She would make a much better researcher, teaching, reviewing books, or fact checking.   She didn't like Mitchum's suggestion but she really would make a great assistant also. 

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, Rachel81 said:

I think she decided at a young age that she wanted to be a journalist, so she never bothered to consider what other options she might be better suited for. Goes along with the commentary on her passive personality. "Well, I said I'll be this, so I'll just be that" and then she quits at the first sign of difficulty. She can't think for herself that there might be a better future for her.

I wonder if she even really decided it.  We know that she wanted to go to Harvard ever since she was two, which is absolutely ridiculous, and that leads me to believe that was Lorelai's idea.  Now, while I don't think Lorelai actually cared much what Rory did, maybe they were watching the news one time and Lorelai said, "hey, that looks exciting.  Maybe you should do that when you grow up."  And Rory, in her mind, thought "OK, I'm going to Harvard and then I'm going to be a foreign correspondent."  And that was that.

[Rachel81]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I wonder if she even really decided it.  We know that she wanted to go to Harvard ever since she was two, which is absolutely ridiculous, and that leads me to believe that was Lorelai's idea.  Now, while I don't think Lorelai actually cared much what Rory did, maybe they were watching the news one time and Lorelai said, "hey, that looks exciting.  Maybe you should do that when you grow up."  And Rory, in her mind, thought "OK, I'm going to Harvard and then I'm going to be a foreign correspondent."  And that was that.

I was thinking about the Harvard thing after I posted (while I was doing the dishes, so the mind wanders, lol). The ambush interview at Yale seemed to tip her in favor of Yale despite her years of insistence that she was going to Harvard. She was very susceptible to suggestion and outward influence, so you're probably onto something there with the theory about Lorelai, despite how many times she protested that it was what Rory wanted.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

I wonder if she even really decided it.  We know that she wanted to go to Harvard ever since she was two, which is absolutely ridiculous, and that leads me to believe that was Lorelai's idea.  Now, while I don't think Lorelai actually cared much what Rory did, maybe they were watching the news one time and Lorelai said, "hey, that looks exciting.  Maybe you should do that when you grow up."  And Rory, in her mind, thought "OK, I'm going to Harvard and then I'm going to be a foreign correspondent."  And that was that.

That's an interesting idea I assumed it was Rory's idea.  I can't see Lorelai wanting Rory so far away covering a war. In the second episode Rory explains why she wanted to be a foreign correspondent to Headmaster Charleston how she wanted to travel and see things up close.  But also in that scene he asks why not be Cokie Roberts or someone else I think Oprah or the View their on TV. Rory immediately response that maybe she wouldn't be on TV maybe write for a newspaper. She was able to answer why she picked that career but as soon as he asked why she wanted to be on TV she doesn't defend or explain it instead saying maybe newspaper. She didn't seem too nervous talking to Charleston he tried to be tough earlier with his liking her grandparents and recently been to their house didn't mean he was going to go easy on her. Rory answered something about him liking the appetizer. So why not explain wanted to be on TV? Christiane Amanpour and Cokie Roberts are really different. After that we don't really hear too much on why Rory wants that particular dream. We don't even see Rory talking to Lane about her dream career even though we get scenes of Lane talking about wanting to be in a band and drummer.  In season three when Rory tells her mom about wanting to try out for that chance to be on CSPAN only because of Paris, Lorelai points out that someone who wants to be a foreign correspondent should really take as many chances like being on CSPAN. Which is a good point. Rory doesn't really try to do things that would give her experience that she could use in her future career. Jess express surprise at Rory wanting that career and she immediately flipped out wondering if she could do it.  

3 hours ago, Rachel81 said:

I was thinking about the Harvard thing after I posted (while I was doing the dishes, so the mind wanders, lol). The ambush interview at Yale seemed to tip her in favor of Yale despite her years of insistence that she was going to Harvard. She was very susceptible to suggestion and outward influence, so you're probably onto something there with the theory about Lorelai, despite how many times she protested that it was what Rory wanted.

That's a good point. Rory really sounded like she wanted to go Harvard excited when she visited the school, assuring Lorelai that she did want to go to Harvard in the episode she was late for her test and happily showed Richard her Harvard board. But it really didn't take much for her to switch to Yale. If she really wanted to go why switch? And switch so easy? Its not like she switched to a college with a journalist degree or program. We don't even hear her debate the Yale newspaper vs the Harvard newspaper. 

[WhoaWhoKnew]

I think Rory missed her calling as an event planner. She did really well with that DAR crap Emily had her doing.

[elang4]

27 minutes ago, WhoaWhoKnew said:

I think Rory missed her calling as an event planner. She did really well with that DAR crap Emily had her doing.

Can you imagine Lorelai's reaction though when she finds out Rory wants to do something that Emily does?! ?

[txhorns79]

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Can you imagine Lorelai's reaction though when she finds out Rory wants to do something that Emily does?! ?

Given Richard acted like doing anything Emily-oriented was akin to throwing away your life, perhaps it would have brought he and Lorelai together.  

[elang4]

2 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Given Richard acted like doing anything Emily-oriented was akin to throwing away your life, perhaps it would have brought he and Lorelai together.  

Ha maybe so!! Even though I hated the fact that Richard and Emily went behind Lorelai's back and I hated Lorelai and Rory's estrangement at the beginning of season 6 but I did actually enjoy watching Rory and Emily work together and actually grow closer doing so. I mean I know in the long term, Rory got annoyed with her but it was nice at the beginning. ?

[txhorns79]

Quote

Ha maybe so!! Even though I hated the fact that Richard and Emily went behind Lorelai's back and I hated Lorelai and Rory's estrangement at the beginning of season 6 but I did actually enjoy watching Rory and Emily work together and actually grow closer doing so. I mean I know in the long term, Rory got annoyed with her but it was nice at the beginning. ?

I remember she and Richard having an absolutely obscene breakfast spread when Rory was living with them.  There was enough food for ten people to eat comfortably, and they acted like this was entirely normal. 

[WhoaWhoKnew]

I'm a rather new watcher (since 2015) and I'm not sure if this is unpopular, but I think Lorelai was the problem in the relationship with her parents. 

Sure, they were snobs and pushy, but they always seemed supportive when it counted (paying for chilton, yale, termites, intending to give Chris a job after high school, standing up for Lorelai against the Haydens even though she purposely antagonized them). I don't think a weekly dinner is that much of a hardship to endure for such help as an adult.

They did nothing to her to justify running away and cutting them off.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

2 hours ago, WhoaWhoKnew said:

I'm a rather new watcher (since 2015) and I'm not sure if this is unpopular, but I think Lorelai was the problem in the relationship with her parents. 

Sure, they were snobs and pushy, but they always seemed supportive when it counted (paying for chilton, yale, termites, intending to give Chris a job after high school, standing up for Lorelai against the Haydens even though she purposely antagonized them). I don't think a weekly dinner is that much of a hardship to endure for such help as an adult.

They did nothing to her to justify running away and cutting them off.

Their support was always conditional. Now you can say they wouldn't have blackmailed her into FND if Lorelai hadn't kept them at arms length but their conditional support explains why Lorelai had to in the first place 

Richard reminded Lorelai that he wasn't defending her when she thanked him. He was defending their name ... or whatever he said. Suffix is that he didn't come to his daughters defense out of fatherly love. Contrast that to Emily explicitly telling Rory she mattered after she overheard what the Haydens said about her. Richard sucked as a father in that moment

Edited August 9, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[Guest]

2 hours ago, WhoaWhoKnew said:

 

They did nothing to her to justify running away and cutting them off.

The more I watch the show, the more I think this is one of the show's big weaknesses. We never saw anything that they did to justify Lorelai running away underage and living in a potting shed! We just got vague comments about feeling smothered, etc. It also made Lorelai's lingering resentment seem overly dramatic.

[WhoaWhoKnew]

24 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Their support was always conditional. Now you can say they wouldn't have blackmailed her into FND if Lorelai hadn't kept them at arms length but their conditional support explains why Lorelai had to in the first place

Lorelai would never have considered asking them for money if they were as bad as she made them out to be. IIRC, Luke offered to pay for the termite infestation and she turned that down and instead asked Emily for help again. Sure money could have ruined her friendship Luke, but she wouldn't have had to deal with her parents.

And conditional or not, they didn't owe her anything. Rory and her house are her responsibilty not theirs. 

She was just spoiled rich kid who wanted to play poor knowing she had somewhere to run when the going got tough. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

The more I watch the show, the more I think this is one of the show's big weaknesses. We never saw anything that they did to justify Lorelai running away underage and living in a potting shed! We just got vague comments about feeling smothered, etc. It also made Lorelai's lingering resentment seem overly dramatic.

It was a big double edged sword for the show.  To justify what Lorelai did (running away and keeping herself mostly cut off from her parents for years), I think you'd essentially have to have Emily and Richard be near monsters who were regularly abusing or otherwise terrorizing their daughter.  Instead, Emily and Richard (probably in large part due to the actors playing them) seem overbearing, along with being sometimes rude and pushy.  Otherwise they appear to be mostly harmless people who really seem to love their daughter.     

Maybe you could chalk it up to Lorelai being really immature, but I don't think we are supposed to see it that way. 

[WhoaWhoKnew]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

The more I watch the show, the more I think this is one of the show's big weaknesses. We never saw anything that they did to justify Lorelai running away underage and living in a potting shed! We just got vague comments about feeling smothered, etc. It also made Lorelai's lingering resentment seem overly dramatic.

On my first watch I kept waiting for it to come out that Emily and Richard pressured Lorelai into having an abortion or giving Rory up for adoption, so she ran away. Of course, that never happened, they just had clashing personalities.

[Guest]

Another small change they could have made is had Lorelai move out with Rory right when she turned 18. Even have it be after a fight about college. The fact she ran away, underage, baby in tow makes her less sympathetic to me.

[Anela]

4 hours ago, WhoaWhoKnew said:

I'm a rather new watcher (since 2015) and I'm not sure if this is unpopular, but I think Lorelai was the problem in the relationship with her parents. 

Sure, they were snobs and pushy, but they always seemed supportive when it counted (paying for chilton, yale, termites, intending to give Chris a job after high school, standing up for Lorelai against the Haydens even though she purposely antagonized them). I don't think a weekly dinner is that much of a hardship to endure for such help as an adult.

They did nothing to her to justify running away and cutting them off.

The weekly dinner, I agree with, and the running away as a teenager - but they were so rude to her. Someone said above, that Richard would remind her that he wasn't defending her, he was defending the family name. Her mother was constantly rubbing her nose in certain things, and interfering. One of my favourite scenes, was when they finally bonded, after Richard was in the hospital for the second time, only to have that ruined by Emily the next day. Being rude to her daughter. If they were like that when Lorelai was growing up, leaving her feeling like a constant disappointment, I guess I can see why she would want to get her daughter away from them. 

[shron17]

7 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It was a big double edged sword for the show.  To justify what Lorelai did (running away and keeping herself mostly cut off from her parents for years), I think you'd essentially have to have Emily and Richard be near monsters who were regularly abusing or otherwise terrorizing their daughter.

To me, yelling at your 16-year-old daughter as she's being wheeled into te delivery room makes you a bit of a monster.  Not that I don't empathasize with Emily and Richard also, at times.  I think that's a big part of what makes Lorelai's story feel true to life--no one is all right or all wrong no matter how much they imagine they are and no matter that they refuse to see their part in it.  The idea that Lorelai would run away from her parents seems perfectly believable to me given the situation, her personalty, and their relationship.

[txhorns79]

Quote

that Richard would remind her that he wasn't defending her, he was defending the family name.

If I remember right from the episode where they had that fight, he said he was defending her, but that she should not take his defense to mean that he and Emily weren't still deeply feeling the hurt she had caused them when she ran away and cut them off.  He then asked her what they had done to cause her to act the way she did, and she mostly had no answer.   

Quote

To me, yelling at your 16-year-old daughter as she's being wheeled into the delivery room makes you a bit of a monster. 

I think Emily was upset because they only found out Lorelai was in labor because she left them a note (presumably so they would miss the entire thing) rather than calling them to let them know what was happening.  

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Richard sucked as a father in that moment

No, he didn't.  He defended her.  But, Lorelai pretty much goes through life thinking she can do whatever she wants without worry about how it affects anyone else. Richard is right to point that out.

[Guest]

If Emily had been screaming about her in the delivery room about the pregnancy in general or not doing her homework, I would think it was monstrous. But she was yelling at her because she had an emotional reaction to finding a note saying her 16 year old had just driven herself to the hospital. A little more understandable, imo.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Anela said:

The weekly dinner, I agree with, and the running away as a teenager - but they were so rude to her. Someone said above, that Richard would remind her that he wasn't defending her, he was defending the family name. Her mother was constantly rubbing her nose in certain things, and interfering. One of my favourite scenes, was when they finally bonded, after Richard was in the hospital for the second time, only to have that ruined by Emily the next day. Being rude to her daughter. If they were like that when Lorelai was growing up, leaving her feeling like a constant disappointment, I guess I can see why she would want to get her daughter away from them. 

Honestly, I think this was very much a two-way street. There were many times that I thought Lorelai was unspeakably rude to her parents. She did an interview where she compared her mom unfavorably to notable world dictators! She embarrassed them in front of their guests multiple times. 

I think they were very much stuck in a negative cycle and none of them are innocent.