One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[HeySandyStrange]

2 hours ago, clack said:

The problem with discussing L/L compatibility or lack thereof, is that there are several "Lukes".

Are we talking the Luke who has never seen a movie, or the Luke who could give a short lecture on the difference between 'the Outer Limits' and 'the Twilight Zone'? The Luke who has dated a number of beautiful, professional women or the Luke who doesn't know how or when to dress up? Luke the small-town rube, or Luke the successful owner of a business located in an historic town, a town that is an international tourist destination?

Not to mention the surprisingly well-informed Luke of the first season, who had knowledge of environmental and social issues. Frankly that Luke seemed a little too informed for the overly whimsical Lorelai, whom I never thought was all that intellectual outside of her business and pop culture knowledge. Of course that one didn't last and somehow over the years Luke (and many of the characters) got dumbed down or straight up assassinated.

[txhorns79]

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Not to mention the surprisingly well-informed Luke of the first season, who had knowledge of environmental and social issues. Frankly that Luke seemed a little too informed for the overly whimsical Lorelai, whom I never thought was all that intellectual outside of her business and pop culture knowledge. Of course that one didn't last and somehow over the years Luke (and many of the characters) got dumbed down or straight up assassinated.

I do recall Lorelai chastising Luke for making references to Star Trek, even though I think she also referenced the series at other times during the show.  The show isn't always very consistent with how it writes the characters.   

Edited May 29, 2016 by txhorns79

[clack]

1 hour ago, dustylil said:

I am not sure what knowing a great deal about two ancient television shows has to do with familiarity with movies. It seems to me  quite reasonable to be familiar with one type  of entertainment and not another. It is quite likely there are a number of people who are knowledgeable  about  movies but  do not know anything of television programs.

Of course, we do know that Luke actually has seen some films - among them Love Story, one or more of the Star Wars epics, and of course the noted classic Queen of Outer Space.

70's and 80's broadcast TV showed a lot of movies. If you were watching the Outer Limits, you were also watching sci-fi and horror movies, at least, on TV. Viewers didn't make a big distinction between movies shown on TV and TV programs. It was all TV.

Thing is, ASP frequently characterized Luke variably according to some joke she wanted to tell in a particular scene. Sometimes the joke was that a Luke was a pop culture illiterate, and sometimes the joke was that Luke was a secret nerd with in-depth knowledge of Star Trek, Star Wars, and the Outer Limits. ( And I remember a scene in which he confessed to having never seen the Wizard of Oz or Casablanca, but that he had seen 'Mr and Mrs Bridge'. Again, just an ASP joke).

Edited May 29, 2016 by clack

[dustylil]

27 minutes ago, clack said:

And I remember a scene in which he confessed to having never seen the Wizard of Oz or Casablanca, but that he had seen 'Mr and Mrs Bridge'. Again, just an ASP joke).

It is not necessarily an ASP joke. Luke could have seen Mr. and Mrs. Bridge  on a date. We know he took both Lorelai and Rachel to the movies when they were dating. Maybe he saw the film with Anna :)

[txhorns79]

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It is not necessarily an ASP joke. Luke could have seen Mr. and Mrs. Bridge  on a date. We know he took both Lorelai and Rachel to the movies when they were dating

I think clack's point was more that ASP wanted to do a certain joke, and it was written into the scene regardless of whether it made a lot of sense for the particular character.  Clack wasn't saying that Luke never could have seen the movie, only that the line was written for the purpose of the joke, rather to give any insight into the character.     

[Smad]

8 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

The show isn't always very consistent with how it writes the characters.

Just needs to be quoted again for absolute truth. This show really is a prime example of the kind of TV I hate where 'plot drives the characters' instead of how it should be where 'characters drive the plot'. Only the latter one guarantees character consistency. The former gives us 'several Luke's' as another poster said.

Why do I like this show again?

[dustylil]

Frankly, until  into the sixth season I did not see different Lukes as such, but various aspects of the same one.

Luke did indeed date a number of beautiful and successful women.  But perhaps they were attracted to him because he was comfortable in his own skin without any need to impress them with nice clothes and fancy cars. Many women  find those to be appealing qualities.

He  was the owner of a successful local eatery. He did not aspire to be the proprietor of a trendy café. I thought this was quite clever on his part. Although something of both a health nut and foodie himself, he  served  good quality basic food including excellent coffee, that was both casual and affordable. His customers clearly included both tourists and townies. Operating a diner in a historic town like Stars Hollow to me showed an  astute business sense. He was  able to weather both the vagaries of the tourist trade as well as changes in food fashion.

As to Luke being well read or even well informed, I am unclear to what standard or what  individuals he is being compared to. I am genuinely trying to recall any of the adult characters carrying on of intellectual conversations with one another. Or even alluding to a rousing discussion on politics, current events, or other issues of the day. (I am sure I will be quickly corrected on this if I am wrong). Despite their Ivy League educations, Richard and Emily seemed to spend much of their time discussing petty matters or complaining about the injustices done to them. Emily in particular struck me as particularly parochial and narrow-minded. To me Luke was widely read, took an interest in community affairs and had a number of other interests (including sports, wood-working and cookery). True, he was no pop culture maven, but that is hardly a sign of intellectual inadequacy.

[junienmomo]

4 hours ago, dustylil said:

Frankly, until  into the sixth season I did not see different Lukes as such, but various aspects of the same one.

<snip>

As to Luke being well read or even well informed, I am unclear to what standard or what  individuals he is being compared to. I am genuinely trying to recall any of the adult characters carrying on of intellectual conversations with one another. Or even alluding to a rousing discussion on politics, current events, or other issues of the day. (I am sure I will be quickly corrected on this if I am wrong). Despite their Ivy League educations, Richard and Emily seemed to spend much of their time discussing petty matters or complaining about the injustices done to them. Emily in particular struck me as particularly parochial and narrow-minded. To me Luke was widely read, took an interest in community affairs and had a number of other interests (including sports, wood-working and cookery). True, he was no pop culture maven, but that is hardly a sign of intellectual inadequacy.

Nicely written. I mostly viewed Luke like you did, but it took me a long time to understand the cruise elopement. I had to understand that Season 3 was friendship LL rather than his pining a la season one.

I can't recall any characters who demonstrated their intellect either. Oh wait! It just occurred to me that Logan swept Rory off her feet with his real wit, founded on a broad knowledge, and able to debate most any topic.

Emily tried to have salon-level conversations at FND, but it was a hopeless case with Lorelai around. To support your point about Emily, I laugh when I remember a DAR conversation about which founding father would have been better in bed. 

Luke was as you describe, a person who thought about things and able to live life in a balanced way. The show eventually left us with only Lorelai's perception of Luke in a very superficial way instead of the season one person.

[txhorns79]

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 Operating a diner in a historic town like Stars Hollow to me showed an  astute business sense. He was  able to weather both the vagaries of the tourist trade as well as changes in food fashion.

I don't know.  He grew up in the town, owned the property and preparing diner food is something one can do without having to have a lot of training.  I think he was succesful, but I don't know if it was because he was a great businessman.  We also saw Luke refuse to lease out an unused property because of personal issues, and randomly blow thousands of dollars on spur of the moment purchases of buildings in the town.  That would not necessarily indicate an "astute business sense" to me.     

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I am genuinely trying to recall any of the adult characters carrying on of intellectual conversations with one another.

I suppose it depends on what one means by "intellectual conversations."  I would think everyone has a different definition of what that might mean, some narrow, some more open. Obviously, this show wasn't The West Wing, but I think the characters certainly showed intellect in terms of being able to easily reference the classics, politics, various movies and television shows.  Maybe, I'm wrong, and I'm sure someone will correct me at some point if I am, but I can't really imagine people were tuning into the show in the hope that we could hear Lorelai debate the merits of the Iraq War, what Rory might think about partial birth abortion or John Kerry's record of service during Vietnam (all things that would have been current events during the time of the show.)                   

Edited May 30, 2016 by txhorns79

[Kohola3]

"I hate President.  He’s stupid and his face is too tiny for his head and I just want to toss him out."

Good times, good times. 

[Leonana]

8 hours ago, dustylil said:

Frankly, until  into the sixth season I did not see different Lukes as such, but various aspects of the same one.

Luke did indeed date a number of beautiful and successful women.  But perhaps they were attracted to him because he was comfortable in his own skin without any need to impress them with nice clothes and fancy cars. Many women  find those to be appealing qualities.

He  was the owner of a successful local eatery. He did not aspire to be the proprietor of a trendy café. I thought this was quite clever on his part. Although something of both a health nut and foodie himself, he  served  good quality basic food including excellent coffee, that was both casual and affordable. His customers clearly included both tourists and townies. Operating a diner in a historic town like Stars Hollow to me showed an  astute business sense. He was  able to weather both the vagaries of the tourist trade as well as changes in food fashion.

As to Luke being well read or even well informed, I am unclear to what standard or what  individuals he is being compared to. I am genuinely trying to recall any of the adult characters carrying on of intellectual conversations with one another. Or even alluding to a rousing discussion on politics, current events, or other issues of the day. (I am sure I will be quickly corrected on this if I am wrong). Despite their Ivy League educations, Richard and Emily seemed to spend much of their time discussing petty matters or complaining about the injustices done to them. Emily in particular struck me as particularly parochial and narrow-minded. To me Luke was widely read, took an interest in community affairs and had a number of other interests (including sports, wood-working and cookery). True, he was no pop culture maven, but that is hardly a sign of intellectual inadequacy.

I felt he was changed in S5. Even though he isn't the most social guy, he always attended town meetings. Once he and Lorelai start dating, suddenly he's this grump who never attends one. He knows how to dress up, but wears jeans to his first Friday night dinner, and also offers Emily a drink of his beer. I suppose I could excuse the beer part as nervousness, but the first two don't seem to fit. And of course, there is the last half of S6, and I'm in the Out of Character for Luke Camp on that one.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Leonana

[dustylil]

8 minutes ago, Leonana said:

Even though he isn't the most social guy, he always attended town meetings

Actually, he didn't. He wasn't at the one about the Festival of Living Pictures or whatever that particular festival was called. And Lorelai didn't  express any surprise at his absence.  So likely he attended  most, out of both self-interest and to provide a voice of cranky reason in the face of Taylor's more hare-brained schemes.

[hippielamb]

On 5/29/2016 at 10:51 AM, dustylil said:

It was my understanding that indentured servitude went out of style in the United States some time ago. There was nothing stopping Jason (or for that matter, Logan) from striking out on his own and making a life and a career for himself. Of course, that would require standing on one's own two feet, taking risks and foregoing a cushy lifestyle - at least temporarily.

Very true! 

There seems to be a theme of upper class domineering fathers and weak willed sons on the show. Christopher, Jason, Tristin, and Logan all had strained relationships with their dads. I wonder what that's about.

 

22 hours ago, JayInChicago said:

I was patiently waiting for the topic to turn back to Dean and well I can't wait anymore lol

Mostly season two related: i really don't get anything out of his being in this show. There isn't one second of the show I think is enriched by him being on it. The second he suspected accurately that Rory had a crush on Jess he should have ran. Also this is probably early middle age talking but I can't access that teenage wanting to be with and/or talk to someone every waking second thing. I mean I vaguely recall feeling that way about someone but Christ. Smothering moody clingy is not a good look.

I agree, though I like Dean. During the whole Jess or Dean plotline I wanted him to recognize his own worth and not let Rory treat him the way she did. He should have ended it when he admitted to Lorelai that he knew Rory liked Jess. My friend who has been rewatching it with me thinks he should have dumped her after the basket picnic fight. Either way, it dragged on for months after that. 

I do think the wanting to be together constantly thing was true. I remember back in the day that being so important. Extracurricular activities, jobs, friends, etc were all secondary to the teen love affair. Not exactly healthy but it's represented honestly.

[Kohola3]

21 minutes ago, hippielamb said:

My friend who has been rewatching it with me thinks he should have dumped her after the basket picnic fight.

I agree.  There was, however, the Teen Aged Boy's First Love Belief that made him hope like crazy that she would see the light and return to her true love. Unrequited love is so painful and also so common among that set.

[junienmomo]

On the topic of intellect, the oft-maligned Life and Death Brigade were clearly the best educated single group and the group that demonstrated it most effectively. 

A shout-out to the person who commented that LDB parties were like Stars Hollow festivals, only with a different group. Very funny!

The showcase of the LDB was in You Jump, I Jump. They organized a complex series of intellectual and sporting events in secret. This is a very difficult thing to achieve. Taking their tone from Gatsby (literary knowledge), they played at intellectual games (normal conversation, but without words containing the letter 'e,' and they built improbably sophisticated mechanical objects which were functional (scientific capability).

They were also savvy enough to bend the rules of Emily's meat market to have a good time anyway. While it was rude and thievery, Logan's moving small objects around their acquaintances' homes was rather clever. 

They, sadly, were also dumbed down over the seasons, having a movie-themed party, a celebration for Rory's felony, and an inexplicable need to jump off of mountains or something resulting in Logan's injuries. 

[LadyNebula]

Sorry to jump in, but I'm rewatching Season 7 and I need to air my (probable) unpopular opinion.  I have to say... I like it.  The later episodes, anyway.  Hay Bale Maze is actually one of my favorite episodes, period.  You have Stars Hollow wackiness (even though Taylor is featured.  I hate Taylor), Luke and Lorelai warming to each other ,and Logan and Lorelai having a really good conversation.  I also love the looks on Logan and Rory's faces as Luke and Taylor duke it out over hay.  

 

So, yeah... Season 7.  I dig it.  A lot of fans get down on it, but after Lorelai and Christopher broke up, I think it's actually pretty good.

 

As for other unpopular opinions, I like Colin and Finn as well as the Life and Death Brigade.  And on the subject of guys, Marty is a serious creeper.  Pass.

[elang4]

38 minutes ago, LadyNebula said:

Sorry to jump in, but I'm rewatching Season 7 and I need to air my (probable) unpopular opinion.  I have to say... I like it.  The later episodes, anyway.  Hay Bale Maze is actually one of my favorite episodes, period.  You have Stars Hollow wackiness (even though Taylor is featured.  I hate Taylor), Luke and Lorelai warming to each other ,and Logan and Lorelai having a really good conversation.  I also love the looks on Logan and Rory's faces as Luke and Taylor duke it out over hay.  

 

So, yeah... Season 7.  I dig it.  A lot of fans get down on it, but after Lorelai and Christopher broke up, I think it's actually pretty good.

 

As for other unpopular opinions, I like Colin and Finn as well as the Life and Death Brigade.  And on the subject of guys, Marty is a serious creeper.  Pass.

I agree! I like the second half of the season. :) I loved the scene in Santa's Secret Stuff when Lorelai and Rory bump into Luke and April in the shop and Rory and Luke have that sweet interaction talking about the presents he'd bought her. One of the standout scenes for me. From then on you can see Luke and Lorelai gradually get back to normal, especially after the character reference. :)

[dustylil]

1 hour ago, junienmomo said:

While it was rude and thievery, Logan's moving small objects around their acquaintances' homes was rather clever. 

With respect, how was this clever? You pick up one small object from one house, put it in your pocket and then put it down in another home. There didn't seem to be any rules about the pilfered items such as they all had to be made of metal,  had to start with a specific letter of the alphabet   or had to have been made in a certain decade.

[cuddlingcrowley]

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As for other unpopular opinions, I like Colin and Finn as well as the Life and Death Brigade.  And on the subject of guys, Marty is a serious creeper.  Pass.

I like Colin and Finn too, especially Finn. As far as the Life and Death Brigade goes, I really liked "You jump, I jump, Jack" but the subsequent mentions weren't quite as fun.

Marty was terrible.

I also think S7 is mostly fine. It's certainly not worst than S6 or, God forbid, season 4, imo.

I'm not quite sure this is an unpopular opinion, but I think the finale is a gorgeous episode and a fitting end for the show. Is it everything I wanted? No, but I doubt ASP would have given me that either. I don't hate anything about it.

[junienmomo]

6 minutes ago, dustylil said:

With respect, how was this clever? You pick up one small object from one house, put it in your pocket and then put it down in another home. There didn't seem to be any rules about the pilfered items such as they all had to be made of metal,  had to start with a specific letter of the alphabet   or had to have been made in a certain decade.

The cleverness was using the activity to learn about other people's characters.

It was all friends' homes, so they were choosing some small item that many would never even notice were missing and have the item suddenly appear in a friend's house. I've been at a friend's house before, noticed something, commented on it and they replied, "Of course, that's yours! Don't you remember lending it to me?" Obviously I hadn't remembered. 

The twist with Emily was she noticed it was missing almost immediately. That told me and I'm sure Logan something about her character, namely that she was as anal as Trix was about some things. I wouldn't expect e.g. Shira to even notice something was missing. 

On a verbal level, it would be like Lorelai saying something outrageously untrue just to get a rise out of someone. A concrete example fails me at the moment. 

[Kohola3]

My take on the LDB is quite the opposite.

Learning that Emily was anal was useful how?  Stealing is stealing. I see nothing clever about it.

None of the Brigade adventures would have been possible without the fountain of family money available.  These were entitled brats who made it eminently clear that they felt they were smarter than the rest of the world and above any laws of decency.  For all we know they paid someone to come up with their stunts and arrange everything.  The one idiot couldn't even read a map.

The only thing I found related to intellect was the Words Without an "E" exercise and I defy anyone to be able to roll sentences off the tongue without it being totally scripted ahead of time.

[dustylil]

Preach it, Kohola3. 

40 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

It was all friends' homes, so they were choosing some small item that many would never even notice were missing and have the item suddenly appear in a friend's house

1. But it doesn't appear they were just taking items belonging to their friends. That might have been amusing within the group and provided a challenge. They were also taking things from houses they happened to be in. In this instance, the home of his girlfriend's grandparents where he had only been once before.

37 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

On a verbal level, it would be like Lorelai saying something outrageously untrue just to get a rise out of someone. A concrete example fails me at the moment

 I confess to never having considered those comments particularly clever. They didn't involve either wit or truth. To me they were on a par with Luke's schoolmate Vince calling him a doodyhead. Without the excuse  Vince had of being in grade school.

[txhorns79]

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So likely he attended  most, out of both self-interest and to provide a voice of cranky reason in the face of Taylor's more hare-brained schemes.

Or more likely, it was just a matter of a particular plot requiring he be there for some, and not for others.

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The showcase of the LDB was in You Jump, I Jump. They organized a complex series of intellectual and sporting events in secret. This is a very difficult thing to achieve. Taking their tone from Gatsby (literary knowledge), they played at intellectual games (normal conversation, but without words containing the letter 'e,' and they built improbably sophisticated mechanical objects which were functional (scientific capability).

 

Honestly, I viewed it like: "Weirdo rich kids have too much time on their hands." 

[readster]

On 5/30/2016 at 0:06 AM, Smad said:

Just needs to be quoted again for absolute truth. This show really is a prime example of the kind of TV I hate where 'plot drives the characters' instead of how it should be where 'characters drive the plot'. Only the latter one guarantees character consistency. The former gives us 'several Luke's' as another poster said.

Why do I like this show again?

I completely agree, Last Man Standing is a prime example of that right now. Where the plot is constantly driving the characters and contradicting something that was not just established in a previous episode, but several. I also remember on episode where Luke made a comment about comic books during his uncle's pre burial and then a while later acted like he had never read even seen a comic book. It was always the butt of a punch line. Same goes with Sookie during the Lord of the Rings birthday party with making Mac and Cheese green and so forth. The point was to take it where someone like Sookie who was ready to get married, have babies and have a career all of a sudden acted like she never had been around kids before. Just to prove a point that no matter what you say, you are never 100% ready for what comes along when you have kids. 

  Just like Logan and Jason's families expecting them to take over the family business, which they didn't want too, yet didn't want to give up their cushy finances to do so. That was a big no no and in doing so, they had to act like it was the worst thing in the world, and yelled about how they had their lives dictated to them. Boo Hoo! Let me wipe away your tears. 

[txhorns79]

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Just like Logan and Jason's families expecting them to take over the family business, which they didn't want too, yet didn't want to give up their cushy finances to do so. That was a big no no and in doing so, they had to act like it was the worst thing in the world, and yelled about how they had their lives dictated to them. Boo Hoo! Let me wipe away your tears. 

Was Jason expected to take over the family business?  I know he was working with his father, but it wasn't clear to me that the company was owned by his father.  I also didn't get the sense that Jason's parents were paying his way, or that he was taking any money from them. 

I also give Jason more of a break because he just wanted to go off on his own to work, while Logan didn't really seem to have any kind of plans (and mostly complained about his father having expectations) until the very end of the series.     

[Leonana]

21 hours ago, dustylil said:

Actually, he didn't. He wasn't at the one about the Festival of Living Pictures or whatever that particular festival was called. And Lorelai didn't  express any surprise at his absence.  So likely he attended  most, out of both self-interest and to provide a voice of cranky reason in the face of Taylor's more hare-brained schemes.

The Festival of Living Art wasn't a town meeting per se, and I can see how that would fit into Luke's character, as he wasn't really interested in the town festivals. I haven't kept a count, but he was pretty regular at most of the town meetings, if not all, up to S5, and most likely for the reason you stated. It was also surprising that Lorelai expressed no surprise, since she attended so many of them with Luke in attendance. My memory may be off on this, but he started attending them again in S7. Maybe he was just a non-attender when he was dating Lorelai, although that still doesn't fit the whole "I never go to town meetings" theme.

Okay, I've gone back and read the posts that plot points dictate town meeting attendance. Since I always enjoyed seeing Luke at town meetings, the whole thing was completely annoying.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Leonana

[hippielamb]

20 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

I agree.  There was, however, the Teen Aged Boy's First Love Belief that made him hope like crazy that she would see the light and return to her true love. Unrequited love is so painful and also so common among that set.

I always sympathize with Dean in this storyline but he shares some blame too. They should have talked about what was going on. He treats it like it's all Jess' fault and he's certainly a factor but it removes any responsibility on Rory. I suppose it's easier to blame the other guy than to accept his girlfriend was attracted to someone else.

 

19 hours ago, LadyNebula said:

 

As for other unpopular opinions, I like Colin and Finn as well as the Life and Death Brigade.  And on the subject of guys, Marty is a serious creeper.  Pass.

I really enjoy Finn, though I have known some "Finn's" so that's my bias. I have mixed feelings about the Life & Death Brigade crew. I really like them but it's strange to see Rory settling in with their lifestyle so easily. I disliked Logan for a long time due to the direction Rory was taking. Unfair, I know. On their own Logan and Finn are likable. Colin I'm iffy on. 

Marty reminds me of every guy who thinks he's entitled to you just because he's your friend. Just No. 

17 hours ago, dustylil said:

Preach it, Kohola3. 

1. But it doesn't appear they were just taking items belonging to their friends. That might have been amusing within the group and provided a challenge. They were also taking things from houses they happened to be in. In this instance, the home of his girlfriend's grandparents where he had only been once before.

 

That little game bugged me. It's theft from someone who has welcomed you into their home. I find it very disrespectful. If they were stealing from each other I wouldn't have a problem with it. 

I thought that scene made Rory look the worst. She knew how picky Emily is, knew the maid would be fired (though that's par for the course in Emilyland) and knew it was wrong. The Rory who considered her grandparents feelings even to the point arguing with her own mother disappeared in a flash. This is why I disliked Logan but in retrospect it's this New Rory I had issues with.

 

13 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Was Jason expected to take over the family business?  I know he was working with his father, but it wasn't clear to me that the company was owned by his father.  I also didn't get the sense that Jason's parents were paying his way, or that he was taking any money from them. 

 

That's the impression I got. Richard had said in a previous episode, (The Bracebridge Dinner I think) that Floyd was the CEO or President or something high up like that. I doubt his father was paying for his apartment like Mitchum did for Logan. But he no doubt paid for his education and Jason probably received a trust fund. I think it comes down to a lack of choice, Jason didn't feel he had one which led to resentment and going into partnership with Richard. 

[dustylil]

1 hour ago, readster said:

Same goes with Sookie during the Lord of the Rings birthday party with making Mac and Cheese green and so forth. The point was to take it where someone like Sookie who was ready to get married, have babies and have a career all of a sudden acted like she never had been around kids before.

Actually, she had been married for some time at this point and was already pregnant. I could accept that she had never been around children before - except the angel child Rory, of course - who was never quite like other kiddies. Sookie was a chef in a upscale Inn where her interactions with customers, let alone their offspring, was likely minimal.  As well, I don't recall her having nieces and nephews. So unfamiliarity with ordinary, non-angelic kids seemed logical enough to me.

What didn't seem logical was  her totally disregarding the menu that the client had wanted without any  discussion or consultation with her. Sookie wasn't a home cook helping out a friend with a party at the last moment.  She had been engaged to provide a service for which she was to be paid. Had  she also refused to prepare items on the menu of the Independence Inn that she didn't care for? Or did she suck it up - knowing this was her bread and butter?

[txhorns79]

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That's the impression I got. Richard had said in a previous episode, (The Bracebridge Dinner I think) that Floyd was the CEO or President or something high up like that. I doubt his father was paying for his apartment like Mitchum did for Logan. But he no doubt paid for his education and Jason probably received a trust fund. I think it comes down to a lack of choice, Jason didn't feel he had one which led to resentment and going into partnership with Richard. 

I think you are right.  I think I just see Logan and Jason's situations as not really being comparable.  Jason was at least in his mid-30s, and had that his parents may have given him a trust fund or paid for his education is not really apropos of anything, since it did not appear he was currently relying on his parents for anything.  This was as opposed to Logan who didn't want the life his parents planned, but still had no real issue relying on their money to fund his pursuits.    

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Sookie was a chef in a upscale Inn where her interactions with customers, let alone their offspring, was likely minimal. 

Even if Sookie hadn't been around children much, I'd find it hard to believe that the Inn didn't offer any menu items meant for children.       

[junienmomo]

16 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Or more likely, it was just a matter of a particular plot requiring he be there for some, and not for others.

Honestly, I viewed it like: "Weirdo rich kids have too much time on their hands." 

The last sentence above is also so true of SH festivals.  "Weirdo Townies have too much time on their hands." The parallels between the groups have begun to amaze me.

[readster]

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Even if Sookie hadn't been around children much, I'd find it hard to believe that the Inn didn't offer any menu items meant for children. 

That's what really made me go "huh?" like she never cooked for kids before? That she couldn't stick to what the party wanted for the event, she had to "spruce" it up? That made no sense to me and it lead to Sookie going: "I'm not ready for this!" So, her botching the kid's party was because she didn't know how to handle little kids who weren't Rory? This also goes to how anal she was about Luke screwing up her kitchen that she had Jackson first of all tell Lorelie off. Then being on bedrest so she wouldn't go into labor early with her second kid was to have Jackson drive her in a golf cart so she could make sure Luke wasn't screwing up the kitchen. That was too much for either Sookie or Jackson and ranks up there was: "Get snipped, nurses! Haul my husband upstairs." Gets up there, Jackson: "Screw this!" "Ok, sir, we couldn't force you anyhow." Jackson: "Don't tell my wife, I'll just time things to avoid having a 3rd kid." So much hatred for them.

[junienmomo]

2 minutes ago, readster said:

That's what really made me go "huh?" like she never cooked for kids before? That she couldn't stick to what the party wanted for the event, she had to "spruce" it up? That made no sense to me and it lead to Sookie going: "I'm not ready for this!" So, her botching the kid's party was because she didn't know how to handle little kids who weren't Rory? This also goes to how anal she was about Luke screwing up her kitchen that she had Jackson first of all tell Lorelie off. Then being on bedrest so she wouldn't go into labor early with her second kid was to have Jackson drive her in a golf cart so she could make sure Luke wasn't screwing up the kitchen. That was too much for either Sookie or Jackson and ranks up there was: "Get snipped, nurses! Haul my husband upstairs." Gets up there, Jackson: "Screw this!" "Ok, sir, we couldn't force you anyhow." Jackson: "Don't tell my wife, I'll just time things to avoid having a 3rd kid." So much hatred for them.

Poor Sookie. Season 1 her character was uninsurable due to her many accidents, then she had a brief period of being useful to Lorelai's plot, followed by the downward spiral of Jackson, pregnancy and BFOTB (I so hated BFOTB and her insistence on it being more important than the groom).

[clack]

The initial Marty storyline had potential.

He was a middle class kid, like Rory. He represented the social background she grew up in, while Logan and the Life & Death Brigade represented her grandparent's social class.

Choosing one over the other should have produced some compelling drama (Marty or Logan? Lorelai or Emily? Working in the school cafeteria between classes or cruising on a yacht?) 

Even Rory's friend-zoning Marty had unrealized dramatic potential. How long should someone suffering unrequited love hold out hope, and when should they move on? (The Marty/Rory situation could have neatly paralleled the Luke/Lorelai one). How does it feel to experience the close friend you secretly love fall for someone you see as an arrogant, privileged dick, and have her gradually lose interest in hanging out with you? 

[junienmomo]

19 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

(snip)

The only thing I found related to intellect was the Words Without an "E" exercise and I defy anyone to be able to roll sentences off the tongue without it being totally scripted ahead of time.

It is actually a thing. Certain verbivores in my acquaintance have played it, one even in grade school. Clearly it's easier to do in written form, but the concept of a game called a lipogram exists. It's a short walk for ASP to morph that game into a conversational version, well-suited for TV. She's made much greater leaps than that. 

[dustylil]

1 hour ago, junienmomo said:

The last sentence above is also so true of SH festivals.  "Weirdo Townies have too much time on their hands." The parallels between the groups have begun to amaze me.

But aren't at least some - if not most - of the SH festivals held to draw tourist dollars to the town and help its overall economic well-being? As far as I could tell, the purpose of the Brigade's activities was to show off how gosh darn precious its members were.

[junienmomo]

22 minutes ago, dustylil said:

But aren't at least some - if not most - of the SH festivals held to draw tourist dollars to the town and help its overall economic well-being? As far as I could tell, the purpose of the Brigade's activities was to show off how gosh darn precious its members were.

Oh, there are plenty of ways they aren't alike, too. The LDB is a fraternity/sorority with no serious business whatsoever while Stars Hollow is a town with all the responsibilities that a government brings. It's just the insanity of both groups that make it easy for me to understand how Logan fit in so well to SH the couple of brief times he visited. "Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right."

And there we have a fundamental difference between Jess and Logan. Logan knew it was all nonsense, but Jess took everything too seriously. 

[Smad]

2 hours ago, dustylil said:

Actually, she had been married for some time at this point and was already pregnant. I could accept that she had never been around children before - except the angel child Rory, of course - who was never quite like other kiddies. Sookie was a chef in a upscale Inn where her interactions with customers, let alone their offspring, was likely minimal.  As well, I don't recall her having nieces and nephews. So unfamiliarity with ordinary, non-angelic kids seemed logical enough to me.

What didn't seem logical was  her totally disregarding the menu that the client had wanted without any  discussion or consultation with her. Sookie wasn't a home cook helping out a friend with a party at the last moment.  She had been engaged to provide a service for which she was to be paid. Had  she also refused to prepare items on the menu of the Independence Inn that she didn't care for? Or did she suck it up - knowing this was her bread and butter?

Except as far back as S1, during Rory's B-day Parties, she made the food items. We saw Sookie rattling off the list to Lorelai. And even though that was for Rory there were other kids at her party too. It's also safe to assume that this wasn't the first time Sookie had done that so she would know what younger kids like in terms of food. Hence that whole thing in S4 with not knowing what kids like to eat is just ASP yanking another character around for plot reasons, whether it actually makes sense or not.

[dustylil]

39 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

And there we have a fundamental difference between Jess and Logan. Logan knew it was all nonsense, but Jess took everything too seriously

Logan was a well-educated, widely travelled young man in his mid-twenties when he first encountered Stars Hollow while visiting his girlfriend. Jess, on the other hand, was  an unhappy teenager of very modest circumstances  who was  there against his will.  It is not surprising the two reacted differently to the wackiness of the little town.

[txhorns79]

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Logan was a well-educated, widely traveled young man in his mid-twenties when he first encountered Stars Hollow while visiting his girlfriend. Jess, on the other hand, was  an unhappy teenager of very modest circumstances  who was  there against his will.  It is not surprising the two reacted differently to the wackiness of the little town.

I would agree that Jess being unhappy and not wanting to be in Stars Hollow likely affected his view of various town events.  I doubt Logan's education level or travel, or Jess being of "modest circumstances" made much of a difference in how they viewed the town.  Stars Hollow was a weird place, full of eccentric people.  Some liked it, others didn't.   

[cuddlingcrowley]

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Stars Hollow was a weird place, full of eccentric people.  Some liked it, others didn't.   

Also, context is everything. One thing is experiencing SH for a weekend with a SO, a whole other different deal is being shipped off from NY to be exiled there.

 

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Sookie was a chef in a upscale Inn where her interactions with customers, let alone their offspring, was likely minimal.  As well, I don't recall her having nieces and nephews. So unfamiliarity with ordinary, non-angelic kids seemed logical enough to me.

I don't tend to have a big issue with GG's continuity, but my biggest issue with that scene is that we get to see at various point in the series Sookie showing up with food to Lorelai's house at a moment's notice and exactly the type of food that would considered adequate to a kid's party. Pulls me out of the scene everything single time.

[shron17]

2 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

Also, context is everything. One thing is experiencing SH for a weekend with a SO, a whole other different deal is being shipped off from NY to be exiled there.

Very true.  Logan didn't have to take Stars Hollow seriously--he had the freedom to come and go as he pleased and could ultimately live anywhere he wanted.  Jess was pretty much stuck to going wherever Liz or Luke paid to send him on the bus, and his ticket to freedom was working at Wal-mart and that dilapidated car.

6 hours ago, junienmomo said:

The last sentence above is also so true of SH festivals.  "Weirdo Townies have too much time on their hands." The parallels between the groups have begun to amaze me.

While they were a bit strange, Stars Hollow's festivals were put on to enhance the community and tourism, and were often combined with fund-raising for things the town couldn't afford.  Their purpose was to both entertain and improve the quality of life for those who lived there and those who visited.  The LADB events were members only, and a big waste of time and money, in my opinion.  

Edited May 31, 2016 by shron17
punctuation

[readster]

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Jess was pretty much stuck to going wherever Liz or Luke paid to send him on the bus, and his ticket to freedom was working at Wal-mart and that dilapidated car.

Which really should have smacked Jess a little harder in the head of him thinking that way. I mean, did he think he was going to be a General manager by 19 and a district manager by 21? His car was shit, he skipped school to get more hours at Walmart and used his employee discount to keep the thing running most of the time and paying out more to Gypsy to keep the POS running. Jess was very limited in his views and never looked ahead to things. That's what made him human, but at the same time, how he thought living with Jimmy was going to help fix that when he had support and a way to either get his GED or finish up school during the summer was beyond stupid. 

[txhorns79]

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Jess was very limited in his views and never looked ahead to things. That's what made him human, but at the same time, how he thought living with Jimmy was going to help fix that when he had support and a way to either get his GED or finish up school during the summer was beyond stupid. 

I think it's less a "human" thing and more a "young" thing.  He didn't have the life experience or guidance to help him see a potential future, so he wed himself to his own limited vision.  It wasn't clear to me what Jess expected from Jimmy.  Jimmy's interested in Jess certainly seemed limited.  I guess the spin off would have developed that plot point, but since it never got beyond the pilot stage, we'll never know.   

[hippielamb]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I think it's less a "human" thing and more a "young" thing.  He didn't have the life experience or guidance to help him see a potential future, so he wed himself to his own limited vision.  It wasn't clear to me what Jess expected from Jimmy.  Jimmy's interested in Jess certainly seemed limited.  I guess the spin off would have developed that plot point, but since it never got beyond the pilot stage, we'll never know.   

I'll say! I can remember having that same attitude about school and work. I have since met young people (teenage/early twenties) who have that same mindset. You can talk until you're blue in the face about college, getting an education, etc but they won't listen because they know it all. It's very believable for Jess to have this attitude.

[dustylil]

2 hours ago, readster said:

how he thought living with Jimmy was going to help fix that when he had support and a way to either get his GED or finish up school during the summer was beyond stupid

I'm confused. What support and means did Jess have to either get his GED or complete high school during the summer? Was there a Mia in his life? We know Luke told him he could either stay in Stars Hollow and repeat his entire senior year or he would have to leave.

[txhorns79]

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What support and means did Jess have to either get his GED or complete high school during the summer? Was there a Mia in his life? We know Luke told him he could either stay in Stars Hollow and repeat his entire senior year or he would have to leave.

I don't know if it would have been possible for Jess to make up his senior year during the summer.  However, if Jess had offered Luke the alternative that Jess could get his GED, as opposed to repeating his senior year, I don't see any real reason that Luke would have refused the suggestion so long as it was plausible and Jess was fully committed to getting the GED.  I'm sure if there was something to suggest Luke would never go for that idea, someone will post to let us know what was. 

Obviously, the onus would have been on Jess to make the initial suggestion, but it was never discussed, so we can't be sure what Luke would have done.             

[junienmomo]

2 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm sure if there was something to suggest Luke would never go for that idea, someone will post to let us know what was. 

Joke: the only block to the very reasonable GED proposal is the fact that it was an ASP ultimatum. We know how those turn out.

The Luke/Jess breakup ultimatum was second in sadness only to Lorelai's ultimatum. 

[dustylil]

I also wonder how much Jess would have even known about the GED process at that point in time. It is not as if he were particularly pally with the Stars Hollow high school staff. Or Lorelai, for that matter.

[readster]

2 hours ago, dustylil said:

I also wonder how much Jess would have even known about the GED process at that point in time. It is not as if he were particularly pally with the Stars Hollow high school staff. Or Lorelai, for that matter.

That was my point in my original post. The school staff and Jess seem to not know how things like this could work. Of course, just like there was no way that Luke wouldn't have been contacted about Jess skipping school or the fact that a GED was an option that would have been suggested by a principal or school advisor when something like this happens. Of course in the world of AS-P, GEDs were non existence just like Jess thinking Walmart and his POS car was his ticket to getting out of Stars Hollow.

[AllyB]

Jess would surely have known all about GED's though. We don't have anything similar in my country and I knew it was possible in the US because it gets mentioned quite a bit on tv. Sure Jess is unlikely to have ever seen Brenda Walsh plan to get hers and leave West Beverly 3 years early, but he'd surely be aware of it.