Season 6: Info, Casting and Spoilers

[aslightjump]

The guy playing the Smalljon is only in two episodes, one of them almost certainly being episode 9, so that effectively ruled out Sansa's first destination being Last Hearth. And she doesn't know anything about Rickon being there anyway.

Damn, thanks for the Smalljon info, somehow I missed that. Like, I know she doesn't know where he is but the show has handwaved enough things that if they were just like "Lucky guess!" I'd take it. So logically. she's either going north to meet her newly-rezzed half-brother which seems highly improbable given that the Wall is many miles away and its winter, or she's going to Littlefinger - which also just doesn't seem very probable. I don't think Aiden has been filming much. If he's mostly doing interiors, it would be hard to know.

 

She could possibly go to a Stark ally, like Eyes High suggested, but I don't see Sansa really trusting anyone enough for that. And I don't think Ramsay telling her of Jon's LC status was just for funsies. They put it in there for a reason.

[Chris24601]

Agreed on Sansa being trusting of unknown allies after her escape and that Jon as the Lord Commander being dropped was not random. She's definitely headed to Castle Black initially and my bet is that she'll get there about the time Jon is siding with the Wildlings.

I mainly think this because it makes the most interesting conflict in setting up the Battle of the Bastards. If Sansa went first to proper Northern lords and started gathering forces against the Boltons (complete with a promise of favor on whoever makes her a widow) then I don't see how the Boltons get much support.

But if the start of Sansa's support is a bastard at the head of an army of Wildlings from beyond the wall things get muddy. As bad as the Boltons are they're still proper Northern lords while Jon is a bastard with all the distrust that entails, likely seen as an oathbreaker to boot (if his resurrection isn't widely known or believed) and at the head of the North's traditional enemies.

All it would take from the Boltons is the claim that the Wildlings have stolen Sansa as a hostage and they'd be able to both gather the Lords to his side and discredit any calls from Sansa for the Lords to rally to her (short of abandoning the protection from Ramsey offered by Jon and the Wildlings).

It also has the most interesting dissonance for Sansa. She knows how to deal with Northern Lords and spent time in the capitol and so knows a bit of the games they play... but she's a fish out of water with Wildlings which she'll have to rely on as protection from Ramsey and as the main allies to help her retake Winterfell.

My guess is that in the books Sansa will go north with the forces of the Vale and join up with Jon's story. I suspect that Sansa's show detour last season is because D&D wanted to accelerate the reunion with Jon and Sansa (which likely couldn't happen until the end of s6 if she had stayed in the Vale) so they'd have more time to interact with each other.

I think that whatever goes down in the books between them probably needs more setup in a medium where you can't just read the character's thoughts and so D&D adjusted things so they'd get an extra 5-8 episodes of interaction they otherwise wouldn't have (especially since the adjustments to Sansa's arc were made back when they were only planning on seven seasons and thought they'd only have, at best, ten episodes to build whatever story between Jon and Sansa is supposed to happen... making it more like 16-18 episodes probably seemed like a better plan).

[blixie]

 

No way Jon and Ramsay become allies.

 

Agreed, I could see John *attempting* to negotiate, but I only want to see it if it constitutes, give me Sansa or I will reign Hell down upon  you and point the WW in your direction. Certainly he could use the Bolton forces but he should achieve that by cutting Ramsay's head off. If I have to take any bad guys in the fight let it be Euron and the Ironborn, they seem the natural antagonistic replacements for the Boltons-Lannisters. 

[GreyBunny]

 

 

And some of these spoilers are starting to fall scarily in line with that 'leaked s6 synopsis' that everybody wrote off as fake because it was too fanficcy.

 

It really is.  I didn't mind the outline so "Yay" for me, if true.

 

Yeah, I just read it and, other than Ellaria and the Sand Snakes still being alive, there isn't anything in it I violently object to.  I find it absolutely hilarious that the Wall might come down, not because of some great ceremony or as a last gasp of desperation, but because Euron was just messing around. 

Edited November 19, 2015 by GreyBunny

[SeanC]

Before the season started filming, it seemed to me that there were three real possibilities for where Sansa would go:

 

(1)  Castle Black, based on Ramsay's comment in 507.

(2)  Last Hearth, probably getting waylaid on her way to Castle Black.

(3)  Littlefinger's army, presuming that it was close by.

 

The fact that the Smalljon is only in two episodes rules out the second option, so we're left with the first and third.  Either are possible, but I think, based on what we've seen so far, that the first is most likely.  The main qualm I have with the third is that it requires Littlefinger to be close at hand to Winterfell very early in the season, but if he were, what does he do after that?  We know that at Snowbowl in episode 609 Ramsay has a huge army and sallies out to meet Jon and co. in the open field (and that Sansa is present, with no indicators of Littlefinger or the Valemen), so it doesn't seem like Littlefinger has attacked by that point.

[Chris24601]

Yeah, I just read it and, other than Ellaria and the Sand Snakes still being alive, there isn't anything in it I violently object to.  I find it absolutely hilarious that the Wall might come down, not because of some great ceremony or as a last gasp of desperation, but because Euron was just messing around. 

I dunno... I read it over and several things are plausible while others are just straight up not fitting right (ex. Sir Robert Strong yelling out at a critical point... when the entire point of the 'vow of silence' is that he doesn't have functioning vocal cords anymore). It doesn't help that the few things that DO fit well are just adaptations from 'Crows' and 'Dragons' (Tristaine/Dany subbed in for both Quentyn/Dany and Arienne/(f)Aegon... Varys killing Kevan to aid Dany's arrival instead of (f)Aegon's... and so forth).

 

Then there are the little things... like Brienne taking Sansa to the Umbers when neither she nor has no idea that Rickon would be there (but Sansa does know where to find Jon Snow), that according to the purported plot Jon still leads the Night's Watch despite being able to walk away from it and don Stark colors (desertion is an automatic death sentence... he's either IN or he's out) and Davos just knowing what Mel did to Shireen despite no one being alive to tell him. Its also missing some of the stuff we've heard about with many of the lords siding with the Boltons at first (which is a fairly significant plot point).

 

The "Other" thing that doesn't fit is the Others coming crashing into the realms of Men at the end of the season. That, along with the stuff at King's Landing is rushing to the end way too quickly and killing off too many key characters with too much time to fill until the story is over (ex. killing off Cersei and Tommen along with Kevan and Pycelle basically all at once). That pacing would have been fine if season seven was the end... its the proper "Oh Crap!" set up of the final moves if you've got only 10 episodes left... but its way to quick and would require dragging out the Walker invasion way too much when there's 20 (or more?) episodes still to go. The only way that pacing makes the slightest bit of sense is if Lena was adamant about leaving after s6 so they needed to kill Cerei off regardless of whether it fit the pacing of the story or not.

 

The thing I absolutely do NOT buy is that Jon Snow won't be resurrected until the end of episode 3. With the number of non-spoiled fans I know who are ready to bolt if Jon isn't back for certain, they'll need assurances of Jon's return in the premiere to keep watching, not three weeks down the line. The latest I can realistically see them holding Jon's resurrection back to is the end of Episode One.

 

The more I think on it, the more I wouldn't trust that "leaked synopsis" any further than I could throw Wun-Wun. It reads to me like someone trying their best to synthesize a plot out of widely known but unused book plots (even if the actors are currently involved in other projects that would preclude their involvement in the series) and some wild mass guessing on everything else.

 

The only parts that feel plausible are basically elements ripped right out of Books 4/5 (many of which we already know about) while others like Lady Stoneheart and the Hound returning are just an attempt to make certain fans want to believe the rumors despite their impracticality (both actors are involved in other projects so are unlikely to be able to break away to film GoT). Everything that delves into WoW territory feels horribly implausible and often lacks the context that would keep it from feeling like a giant asspull (ex. where did Euron get the horn that brings down the Wall and why is it only coming up NOW?).

[Eyes High]

Sue the Fury over at WOTW debunked the "synopsis" (other than those parts containing established spoilers) and she would know. If it seems plausible, it's because the writer did what all people who write foilers: take a bit of known information to make your synopsis sound solid, and then embellish it with your own fake spoilers.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

The only parts that feel plausible are basically elements ripped right out of Books 4/5 (many of which we already know about) while others like Lady Stoneheart and the Hound returning are just an attempt to make certain fans want to believe the rumors despite their impracticality (both actors are involved in other projects so are unlikely to be able to break away to film GoT).

Actually, Rory McCann has been reported by WOTW to have been in Belfast this year, staying at the cast hotel, and Ian McShane is almost certainly playing the role of the Elder Brother (probably merged with Meribald).

[GreyBunny]

Thanks for the input.  If it's fake (and I agree, it probably is) I had an entertaining read.  If it's real (perhaps early drafts of the scripts) then there's not much in there that outright annoys me.

[BlackberryJam]

Season 6 Official Promo Poster

http://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/JS-Tease.jpg

Uh huh. Hey Jon Snow, 'sup?

[WearyTraveler]

Season 6 Official Promo Poster

http://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/JS-Tease.jpg

Uh huh. Hey Jon Snow, 'sup?

 

I'm getting all tingly!

[Eyes High]

Season 6 Official Promo Poster

http://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/JS-Tease.jpg

Uh huh. Hey Jon Snow, 'sup?

 

More importantly, there will be an April premiere date! 

[SimoneS]

Season 6 Official Promo Poster

http://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/JS-Tease.jpg

Uh huh. Hey Jon Snow, 'sup?

 

 

Yummy, yummy, Jon Snow, welcome back.

[bunnyblue]

More importantly, there will be an April premiere date! 

 

Yup! Even if S6 premieres on the final Sunday it would still be April 24...making the wait now no more than 5 months. Yay!!

 

While I won't read too much into Jon's face being splattered in blood or his missing eye or the cloak he's wearing, I do find it interesting that the very first teaser poster features Jon and not Dany or Tyrion. Just give up the charade already, HBO!

[Lady S.]

 

While I won't read too much into Jon's face being splattered in blood or his missing eye or the cloak he's wearing, I do find it interesting that the very first teaser poster features Jon and not Dany or Tyrion. Just give up the charade already, HBO!

IKR? There was no s2 poster with Ned, no s4 poster with Robb, or s5 poster with Oberyn because those guys were actually dead dead. They don't waste posters on characters who are not coming back. Way to spoil the resurrection, HBO.

[WearyTraveler]

IKR? There was no s2 poster with Ned, no s4 poster with Robb, or s5 poster with Oberyn because those guys were actually dead dead. They don't waste posters on characters who are not coming back. Way to spoil the resurrection, HBO.

 

I really don't understand their rationale for ending the season with Jon's "death".  I have friends and family who have not read the books and have spoiler phobia.  When I talk to them about the show, I feel like I'm walking on a mine field and have to bite my tongue quite often.  I would love to post this on my social media and show my excitement, but I'm afraid they'll accuse me of spoiling them, so you guys are the only people with whom I can share my joy.

 

I imagine many other people are in the same situation, but isn't the objective of a promo poster to generate buzz, particularly through social media? There was just no logic here from HBO / the show.

Edited November 24, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[SeanC]

I really don't understand their rationale for ending the season with Jon's "death". 

It generated an absurd amount of attention (and, of course, it's also more or less where book 5 ended, so it's not like a choice that's out of nowhere).

[Haleth]

I really don't understand their rationale for ending the season with Jon's "death".  I have friends and family who have not read the books and have spoiler phobia.  When I talk to them about the show, I feel like I'm walking on a mine field and have to bite my tongue quite often.  I would love to post this on my social media and show my excitement, but I'm afraid they'll accuse me of spoiling them, so you guys are the only people with whom I can share my joy.

Weary, do they really think Jon is dead?  I would think even the most unsullied viewer would have a hard time believing he wouldn't survive since he is the story's closest thing to a traditional fantasy hero.

[Chris24601]

IKR? There was no s2 poster with Ned, no s4 poster with Robb, or s5 poster with Oberyn because those guys were actually dead dead. They don't waste posters on characters who are not coming back. Way to spoil the resurrection, HBO.

Given the reactions of several of my unspoiled friends who said they were done with the show forever if Jon was dead, I think the poster is an effort at damage mitigation. I think D&D overplayed their hands with "He's really dead and not coming back" after last season because a lot of people I knew believed them, especially when Kit also echoed that he was done with the show.

 

Coming on the heels of burning Shireen, the loathsome and unpopular Sand Snakes getting a win by murdering Myrcella just as she was having a moment with Jaime and Sansa's whole abusing arc ending with her leaping to her apparent death while Brienne just missed the call for help... the way they played Jon's death was the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of having characters they gave a fuck about ever getting anything other than misery and death while monsters in human skin get rewarded again and again.

 

Most people hate that stuff... they'll tolerate it on the road to a better ending, but once they've lost sight of the path to that better ending the drop off is significant.

 

So yeah, I think they're spoiling the fact that Jon is going to be back now so that the people who are ready to jump ship can reinvest themselves in the story again and start to psych themselves back up for it.

[WearyTraveler]

It generated an absurd amount of attention (and, of course, it's also more or less where book 5 ended, so it's not like a choice that's out of nowhere).

 

True, but given the history of this show's filming process and how easy it is for stuff to get leaked, why would they think they could keep up the charade? The minute KH came within a 5 mile radius of a GOT filming location, his picture was plastered all over the internet and then all over the big entertainment news outlets, and that was months ago.

 

All the hype they generated with Jon's "death" was incredibly short-lived.  Maybe they were hoping that "leaks" about Jon's return would generate even more buzz, but if that was their strategy, it backfired majorly as it seems most people are respectful of spoiler phobics and don't actually spread that kind of information around.

 

I don't know, I think the whole thing was a huge fail.

 

Weary, do they really think Jon is dead?  I would think even the most unsullied viewer would have a hard time believing he wouldn't survive since he is the story's closest thing to a traditional fantasy hero.

 

Off course I don't think Jon's dead.  But I'm a bookwalker, and I understand that my knowledge of the written story being more complete than someone's who is only a show watcher colors my perceptions and my theories.  As was stated above, many unsullied watchers actually believed Jon was dead.  Some even believed Sansa jumped to her death, even though jumping off a castle wall into a mound of snow is more likely to leave you alive than a dozen of your "brothers" stabbing you repeatedly.

 

I have a friend who is an unsullied, and at her request, I filled her in on some of the backstory that was not on the show before S5 ended.  After the finale she came to me all confused: "They killed Jon Snow! The showrunners said he was dead, dead.  KH said he wasn't coming back! What does that mean?".  So, yes, they fooled some people for a while, but that was, as I stated, very short lived since just a few weeks into filming S6 there were sightings of KH around the set.

 

The whole thing makes no sense from a PR perspective.

[SeanC]

The bulk of the audience doesn't pay attention to filming news, and for months afterward the entertainment media played along with the "is he or isn't he dead?" masquerade anyway.

But regardless, even if it had only lasted a few days it would have been good for generating interest.

Edited November 24, 2015 by SeanC

[Skeeter22]

Actually, I think the show promoting the "Jon Snow is really, truly dead!" narrative created more mainstream attention for the spoilers. Normally GOT filming spoilers are only reported on fan sites, but Kit Harrington sightings in Belfast got mainstream media coverage. It was trending on Twitter and Facebook. I think the new poster is a sign that HBO realizes their denials backfired.

[Eyes High]

It generated an absurd amount of attention (and, of course, it's also more or less where book 5 ended, so it's not like a choice that's out of nowhere).

 

I don't understand the surprise. It's exactly what GRRM did: end on a cliffhanger as to whether or not Jon's alive.

 

The difference, I suppose, is that GRRM never insisted that Jon was dead. On the other hand, GRRM has left the fandom dangling for four and a half years now as to Jon's fate, while the show is only going to leave them hanging for less than a year. 

 

 

 

I think the new poster is a sign that HBO realizes their denials backfired.

 

On the contrary. HBO's flat denials were brilliant marketing. Their denials had the opposite effect to "backfiring": they raised hype to unprecedented levels and encouraged the fans to go crazy trying to prove them wrong. As a result, Jon Snow was trending pretty much all day yesterday. Do you really think that would have happened if they had baldly stated that he hadn't really died and had said "No worries, he'll be back next year"?

 

The Walking Dead pulled the same trick lately and it worked like a charm. Hype, media attention, the works.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Eyes High

[WearyTraveler]

I think trending briefly is not a big PR win.

 

There's no way of confirming this for sure, but I believe a better strategy would have been to end the season with Jon's resurrection instead of with his death.  IMO that would have generated a lot more buzz because it would have affected more people.  For example, bookwalkers, who have for the past four years been 99.9% convinced that Jon lives.

 

For me, it was a missed opportunity at a really big PR blowout.  So, when I say I don't understand their logic, I mean I don't understand it in relation to the other option they had, which was to end with Jon triumphantly being brought back from the dead.

 

As it stands now, Jon's resurrection, arguably the most important event of the series, loses part of its punch.

Edited November 24, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Alapaki]

I think at this point GOT is the epitome of something that gets free PR/advertising.  They don't need to do anything to stoke interest.

 

 

Since there's no plausible way to reconcile the poster with the "Jon is definitely dead" company-line, I think the poster is either an admission that the narrative about Jon's resurrection got too far ahead of them, or they're feeding the general non-book audience chum to distract from the potential Lady Stoneheart reveal.

[Eyes High]

For me, it was a missed opportunity at a really big PR blowout.  So, when I say I don't understand their logic, I mean I don't understand it in relation to the other option they had, which was to end with Jon triumphantly being brought back from the dead.

 

Because cliffhangers work. Why ruin the suspense? The suspense is what generates publicity. That's PR 101. Heighten the mystery, up the ante, stir the excitement. There's a reason why some consider the biggest TV event of all time to be "Who shot JR?" not "What's going to happen at JR's shooter's trial?"

 

 

 

IMO that would have generated a lot more buzz because it would have affected more people.  For example, bookwalkers, who have for the past four years been 99.9% convinced that Jon lives.

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but bookwalkers are nobodies in terms of the show's wider audience. They are nonentities as far as HBO is concerned and they are not catering to or concerned about them. Their marketing has always been directed at their bread and butter: the unsullied hordes, who outnumber the bookwalkers by a huge margin.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Eyes High

[nksarmi]

Because cliffhangers work. Why ruin the suspense? The suspense is what generates publicity. That's PR 101. Heighten the mystery, up the ante, stir the excitement. There's a reason why some consider the biggest TV event of all time to be "Who shot JR?" not "What's going to happen at JR's shooter's trial?"

 

 

 

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but bookwalkers are nobodies in terms of the show's wider audience. They are nonentities as far as HBO is concerned and they are not catering to or concerned about them. Their marketing has always been directed at their bread and butter: the unsullied hordes, who outnumber the bookwalkers by a huge margin.

 

I don't have empirical data to back me up, but from my observations - they blew it with the ending of season five leaving every single character's fate hanging in the balance - particularly when they went even grimmer than GRRM did at the end of book five.

 

They handed every major character a defeat and then upped the anti with the "Jon is really, really dead" crap.  It got a huge, negative reaction from the fandom with every article I read overwhelmingly saying "If Jon is dead, I'm not watching anymore."  A cliffhanger would be what GRRM did - leaving his fate in the balance.  They tried to go for a gut-wrenching, we're killing your hero overly dramatic moment and the fandom (even the non-book readers) gave them a collective middle finger on social media boards everywhere.

 

And there was absolutely NO upside.  People still would have been talking about Game of Throne if they all played coy about Jon's fate.  There would have been mad speculation on how they could bring him back. People would still be following filming for spoilers.  Nothing would have been different EXCEPT the general feeling from the fans would have been more positive.

 

So in my opinion, Kit talking about coming back and the release of the Jon poster is definitely HBO trying to create positive buzz to overcome the HUGE mistake that was made with the "he's really dead, dead" crap. 

[Eyes High]

It got a huge, negative reaction from the fandom with every article I read overwhelmingly saying "If Jon is dead, I'm not watching anymore."  

 

Even assuming that you're correct--and frankly, I saw many positive reactions from the fandom to the ending--the Game of Thrones/ASOIAF fan experience is loudly and passionately declaring that he or she will never watch again, only to come crawling back. There's no stock to be placed in such declarations as a barometer of continuing fan interest. 

 

Also, even assuming that the Internet fans actually follow through on their threats never to watch the show again--and virtually none of them do, from what I can tell (they hatewatch, but they still watch)--the Internet fandom really isn't reflective of the audience. The Internet fans have at various points passionately declaimed that they're 100% done with the show for this or that reason, only for the show's ratings to jump after each supposedly unforgivable transgression. HBO isn't writing or marketing to the Internet fans. They are marketing to the broad audience, and the passionate, picky, and unforgiving Internet fandom is not a representative subset of same.

 

Even assuming that you're correct that there was an enormous negative reaction from the entire audience to the development of Jon Snow appearing to be dead that can be discerned from the Internet fandom reaction, which I think is a pretty flimsy assumption, remember the phrase "There's no such thing as bad publicity"? If the fans love it, great! If the fans hate it, great! They're reacting. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Eyes High

[glowbug]

I think there are arguments for both ending season 5 the way they did and ending it with the resurrection. Ending it with Jon's death created a lot of hype, but it was more of an angry hype. People were straight up pissed off about it in addition to being shocked. I think they would have had an equal amount of hype had they resurrected him, but it would have been an excited/positive hype. Also, the resurrection would have held more of a punch for the Unsullied if it had been done at the end of season 5 because they wouldn't have expected it as I'm sure most of them do now. However, I think that ending the season with Jon's death extended the hype by creating interest in filming reports and the length of Kit's hair, which keeps the series in people's minds longer during the hiatus. On the other hand, there are people who are losing interest in the series because it's become too dark and depressing, so ending the season with the resurrection would have created an eagerness for the new season for many of those viewers.

 

In any case, I wish they hadn't insisted on lying to viewers. They could have refused to comment or just simply state he was dead without insisting that he wasn't coming back. 

[WearyTraveler]

Because cliffhangers work. Why ruin the suspense? The suspense is what generates publicity. That's PR 101. Heighten the mystery, up the ante, stir the excitement. 

 

What cliffhanger? What suspense? You say that bookwalkers are a marginal part of the audience, and I agree with that.  But the only people for whom this ending would be a cliffhanger would be the bookwalkers that were not sure if Jon would be resurrected, and they are even a smaller part of the audience, given that they are a subset of the smallest group of fans.

 

A cliffhanger by definition leaves some room for doubt as to the outcome.  A cliffhanger would have been if we see Jon stabbed but still alive.  That way the suspense would be "Did Jon die?" "Will someone come to save him?".  It's not suspenseful, or a cliffhanger to categorically affirm that he is dead, dead, not coming back, done with story.

 

Let's look at it from an unsullied perspective:

 

• In S1 Ned looked like the hero, the good guy, the one you are meant to root for... WOOSH! off with his head.
• Then it was Robb.... BAM! Red Wedding
• Oberyn looked like the guy who would give the Lannisters a taste of their own medicine... CRACK! Brains on sand.
• Jeor Mormont... murdered by his own men
• Jorah... gets greyscale
• Doran and the Sandsnakes.... total fail, not well received by the audience, almost no one is rooting for them, plus the unsullied still don't know their purpose yet
• Tyrion... shipped half a world away in a city at war, not likely he will be coming back to Westeros to deal with White Walkers any time soon
• Danny... even further away than Tyrion, it's been 5 seasons and she's still not headed to Westeros and has just now taken her first flight on a dragon
• Varys...iffy at best, no one knows his real agenda
• Stannis... sacrificed his own daughter to the fire God and still lost against the Boltons
• Davos... lost his King, went back to the NW who is now under the command of the traitors who murdered Jon Snow
• Melissandre... pushed Stannis into perhaps the most heinous crime of the series and although her magic has worked in the past, it failed big time now
• Jamie... lost his hand, his son, and his daughter
• Sansa... manipulated by LF, raped and abused by Ramsay, some think she jumped to her death
• Theon... betrayed the Starks, murdered innocents, got the most horrible punishment and is now a broken, crippled man, perhaps on a road to redemption, perhaps dead with Sansa
• Cersei... mean, evil, manipulative character, got a horrible punishment, but still has a sinister supporter in Qyburn and his "warrior"
• Brienne... missed Sansa's signal, will she find her again? will she be too late and see her dead outside Winterfell? Can she alone defeat the Boltons?

 

Meanwhile, bad guys like Littlefinger, Roose, Ramsay and Frey are still walking around enjoying the spoils of their evil actions.  Who is there to root for if Jon Snow is dead, dead? Why would the Unsullied believe Jon's death is any different than Ned's or Robb's when this story so far has killed and beaten down all the good guys?  Because Thoros of Myr resurrected Dondarion two seasons ago?  Few people remember that or even make the connection between Melissandre and Thoros.  Because Melissandre is a powerful witch? She just failed miserably with Stannis.  Plus everyone from HBO, and the show, insisted Jon was dead, dead.

 

So, what's the cliffhanger here for the Unsullied who have not had the benefit of knowing all we do about Rhaegar and Lyanna and the prophecies talked about in the books? Where is the suspense? What is there to get excited about with Jon's death?

 

There's a reason why some consider the biggest TV event of all time to be "Who shot JR?" not "What's going to happen at JR's shooter's trial?"

 

 

With all due respect, there's no comparison.  "Who shot JR?" was a true cliffhanger, "Jon Snow is dead, dead, never, ever coming back" is an affirmation that was intended to leave no room for doubt.  It looks like the intent was to later surprise the viewers big time with the resurrection, but that seems to have backfired because many people found out about it beforehand.  And those who didn't expressed their anger and disappointment in such a way that now the first official poster for the season has Jon Snow in it.  So, if the intention was to have a shocking surprise in episode 1, 2 or 3 when Jon is officially resurrected, then, that was a big, big fail.

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but bookwalkers are nobodies in terms of the show's wider audience. They are nonentities as far as HBO is concerned and they are not catering to or concerned about them. Their marketing has always been directed at their bread and butter: the unsullied hordes, who outnumber the bookwalkers by a huge margin.

 

 

Their marketing failed at having the unsullied hordes excited about the new season.  Their marketing succeeded in having the Unsullied hordes very angry at losing, once again, the one character for whom they were were rooting.  Ergo, Jon Snow poster.

Edited November 24, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Eyes High]

Their marketing succeeded in having the Unsullied hordes very angry at losing, once again, the one character for whom they were were rooting.  Ergo, Jon Snow poster.

 

Look, even assuming that the Unsullied hordes are truly angry, which I don't think you or anyone has established in this discussion other than assuming that they must feel that way because some passionate Internet fans you've come across do, the only people who are crazy enough about the show to feel the type of overwhelming anger, betrayal and disappointment you attribute to them at being lied to about a fictional character's death are people HBO knows will never stop watching no matter how much they hate themselves for it. If they honestly care that much, they're going to watch no matter what, and the more they complain and rail against the showrunners for lying to them and deceiving them, the more free publicity they generate for the show! It's a win-win, really. 

 

Fucking with the fans to generate buzz is PR 101. LOST raised it to an art form.

 

From a PR perspective, there is no distinction between good, fuzzy-feeling hype and bad hype. There's no such thing as bad publicity. From a PR perspective, it doesn't matter whether people are talking about how exploitative and awful Sansa's rape is, or about how well-choreographed the battle scenes were in Hardhome; they're still talking.'

 

They could have refused to comment or just simply state he was dead without insisting that he wasn't coming back.

 

Wouldn't have fooled anyone for a second. If they had played coy, everyone would have said "If he was truly dead, they would have said so." And they would have been right! Thus the deliberate obfuscation.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Eyes High

[WearyTraveler]

I think more than a few people would disagree with the statement that "there is no such thing as bad publicity".  Weiner, the mayor of Toronto, all the celebrities that have to issue extended apologies and jump through hoops to rebuild their image after a scandal, etc.

 

But, I'll just agree to disagree and move on.

[nksarmi]

Even assuming that you're correct--and frankly, I saw many positive reactions from the fandom to the ending--the Game of Thrones/ASOIAF fan experience is loudly and passionately declaring that he or she will never watch again, only to come crawling back. There's no stock to be placed in such declarations as a barometer of continuing fan interest. 

 

Also, even assuming that the Internet fans actually follow through on their threats never to watch the show again--and virtually none of them do, from what I can tell (they hatewatch, but they still watch)--the Internet fandom really isn't reflective of the audience. The Internet fans have at various points passionately declaimed that they're 100% done with the show for this or that reason, only for the show's ratings to jump after each supposedly unforgivable transgression. HBO isn't writing or marketing to the Internet fans. They are marketing to the broad audience, and the passionate, picky, and unforgiving Internet fandom is not a representative subset of same.

 

Even assuming that you're correct that there was an enormous negative reaction from the entire audience to the development of Jon Snow appearing to be dead that can be discerned from the Internet fandom reaction, which I think is a pretty flimsy assumption, remember the phrase "There's no such thing as bad publicity"? If the fans love it, great! If the fans hate it, great! They're reacting. 

Actually plenty of companies have been sunk with bad press. So have political candidates.  The idea that there is no such thing as bad publicity is actually pretty false.

 

I live with someone who said, "If Jon Snow is dead, I won't watch anymore" and he has me put duck tape on my mouth not to tell him anything that happened in the books.

 

However, I did say that I think it was in combination with them putting every OTHER character in peril or death scenes as well.  Plus, they also didn't leave it as a cliffhanger - they tried to sell the public on the idea that he was really dead.

 

To the best of my recollection, Dany is beside Drogon when a couple of Dorthraki scouts show up - she is not being surrounded by an enemy horde.  Sansa's plot of course is entirely different.  Stannis is alive.  I think Ayra's sight has actually already been restored.  Myrcella is not dead.  Jamie is actually doing good in the Riverlands.  And the list goes on.... GRRM might have left us debating Jon's fate for four years, but he didn't give you the "all is lost" feeling that the show went for with that final episode. 

 

And frankly, even if we are wrong and the show didn't make a huge mistake - HBO has still obviously decided that promoting the return of Jon will create a hell of a lot better publicity than doubling down on the idea that he's really dead.  So clearly the show runners would have just been better off leaving it a true cliffhanger than all their "no he's really, really dead" crap.

[Eyes High]

Some news! (I've bolded the big stuff.)

1. Carice has had very little filming this year, and it's all been interiors in Belfast with no extras and very hush-hush. (Los 7 Reinos)

2. The SFX team is using the Ghost ball-on-stick more than in previous years. (Los 7 Reinos)

3. Ghost will be involved somehow in the resurrection. (Not sure whether this is a fact or just L7R speculation.)

4. The Ned/Lyanna scene inside the Tower of Joy has already been filmed. (Los 7 Reinos)

5. KL filming continues, as Eugene Simon Instagrammed a picture of his dirty, bare feet. (WOTW)

6. Moneyglass Winterfell set is filming late at night, lit up like a Christmas tree. (WOTW)

7. Extras NI is seeking a newborn baby boy with brown eyes (no hair colour or ethnicity specified) for one day of filming in December in the last week of filming. We know that the northern storyline will still be filming at that point, at least.

8. There will be a scene shooting this week with Jaime, Cersei, and a new Hand of the King (although we don't know who that Hand is). (WOTW)

9. Jon won't be resurrected until episode 5 or 6.

Sounds like Melisandre dies resurrecting Jon, although that hardly squares with Melisandre's prophecy that she would see Arya again.

If the newborn baby brown-eyed boy is supposed to be Jon, that doesn't exactly square with the Ned/Lyanna scene already having been filmed. Anyone want to take a guess?

Edited November 24, 2015 by Eyes High

[Lady S.]

Some news! (I've bolded the big stuff.)

1. Carice has had very little filming this year, and it's all been interiors in Belfast with no extras and very hush-hush. (Los 7 Reinos)

2. The SFX team is using the Ghost ball-on-stick more than in previous years. (Los 7 Reinos)

3. Ghost will be involved somehow in the resurrection. (Not sure whether this is a fact or just L7R speculation.)

The WotW post you're quoting only says Ghost is present for Jon's resurrection, which in itself is meaningful, I guess, given his glaring absence from most of Jon's scenes until now. But it also makes me think Javi's phrasing about Ghost being involved in the resurrection is just speculation. Are there any fluent Spanish speakers here? Here's the L7R article, the guy likes to speculate a lot. With an imperfect Google translation, the only thing I'm sure of is that Jack Bender did the ToJ scenes.

 

As for how Ned's book flashbacks already having been shot computes with them only now casting a brown-eyed baby to play a newborn, well, there can be more R+L=J scenes featuring Ned and baby Jon. Jon doesn't have to be present in the "Promise me, Ned" scene, he can be with his wetnurse or whatever, then we could see him when Ned and Howland are going back up North, and/or when young/baby Jon arrive in Winterfell.

[Chris24601]

I simply do NOT buy number nine. Unless episode from 6-8 are exclusively Jon Snow's story there's just not enough time to set up the forces we know are involved in the Battle of the Bastards to any satisfying degree if he doesn't come back ASAP.

 

To review, Jon needs to;

- Get resurrected.

- Deal with the traitors who murdered him.

- Figure out the best course for fighting the White Walkers.

- Decide to break from the Night's Watch.

- Organize the Wildlings.

- Gather other Northern Lords.

- Likely meet up with Sansa (more likely than her stumbling upon Rickon since she at least knows where Jon is).

- Likely send Davos to find Rickon (if they want to line things up with the books more).

- Probably speak to Bran via tree at least once.

 

That's a LOT to squeeze into just three episodes between the supposed resurrection and the Battle of the Bastards.

 

So my gut says Jon comes back as the last scene of episode 1 and accomplishes one (maybe two) of the above in each of the episodes leading up to Battle of the Bastards. The pacing of that would fit the typical pacing for GoT arcs much better than delaying Jon's return for half the season.

[WearyTraveler]

The WotW post you're quoting only says Ghost is present for Jon's resurrection, which in itself is meaningful, I guess, given his glaring absence from most of Jon's scenes until now. But it also makes me think Javi's phrasing about Ghost being involved in the resurrection is just speculation. Are there any fluent Spanish speakers here? Here's the L7R article, the guy likes to speculate a lot. With an imperfect Google translation, the only thing I'm sure of is that Jack Bender did the ToJ scenes.

 

Spanish speaker here (it's my mother tongue).  The paragraph about Ghost is the following:

 

 

Segundo: De hecho, os damos más detalles. Parece ser que Fantasma, el lobo huargo de Jon, estaría de alguna manera involucrado en el proceso de resurrección. Hemos recibido la información de que el equipo de efectos especiales está utilizando su stick de CGI más que otros años.

 

Translated to English:

 

In fact, we'll give you more details.  It seems that Ghost, Jon's direwolf, is in some way involved in the resurrection process.  We have received information that the special effects team is using its CGI stick more than in other years.

 

To me, it reads as if the only real fact they have is that the FX team is doing a lot more with Ghost this year.  The part about Ghost being involved in the resurrection is speculation.  The point before this one is about Carice doing very little filming, all of it in Belfast, all of it in closed, interior sets, and all of it very secretive.  Then they say they'll give us more details, but the two details don't seem to come from the same source.

 

If Carice's scenes are that secretive and filmed behind closed doors, how do they know Ghost is in them?  Plus they make a point to mention that their source for the Ghost spoiler is that the FX team has been using the CGI stick, but they don't mention the source for the Carice spoiler.  SO, this looks like two different spoilers that they are connecting, which might not necessarily be connected.

 

It's worth mentioning that these guys are bookwalkers, and that knowledge gets into their posts frequently.  They might just be from the camp that believes that Jon wargs into Ghost and are jumping to conclusions.

 

Further down the article they say Jon will be resurrected in episode 5 or 6 because those are the episodes directed by Jack Bender and he was the one directing the TOJ scenes.  That's a premature conclusion, IMO.  I don't think Jon's origin and his resurrection need to happen in the same episode.  He can be resurrected in episode 1, Melisandre can tell him that he's special, we can see him wondering what makes him so special, we can see other characters trying to understand and then we can have the big explanation midseason. Or it could happen as L7R thinks, or it could happen differently.  I just don't think we have enough information on that yet.

[Lady S.]

Thank you, I was doubting the mid-season resurrection hypothesis too. IMO Jon's murderers are more likely to burn his body asap or just fling it off the Wall than keep it on ice for 4 or 5 eps. 

[glowbug]

I also don't think the TOJ scene are necessarily going to be in the same episode as the resurrection. I thought I remember it being strongly hinted at that the TOJ flashbacks are going to be part of Bran's visions. There's nothing to indicate that they will happen at the same time as Jon's resurrection.

[Eyes High]

Thank you for the translation, WearyTraveler! We're spoiled by what a talented bunch we have on the boards.

 

Thank you specifically for clearing up the bit about Jon's resurrection episodes. I wasn't sure if it was Javi's speculation or not.

[WearyTraveler]

Soooo, while I was looking at a post in L7R, I read that they and WOTW have agreed not to reveal all the information they get.  Apparently, they think some spoilers are just too big to reveal.  Then I read the comments and saw that some people asked the guy to share because they didn't mind being spoiled to the core.

 

Other users directed these people to the youtube channel of user Frikidoctor.  Off I went to youtube.  Frikidoctor has had a channel since 2014 and he posts about all things Friki.  In Spain Friki is the term used for people who are fans of fantasy and sci-fi (Star Wars, LOTR, GOT, videogames, consoles, technology, superheroes, etc.); I think "geek" is the closest English word for it.  He posts about a lot of subjects and already has reached 5.000 followers, so, he's not an anonymous user suddenly trying to get attention.  Some of his past posts are about: movie props (Freddy Krueger's glove, Frodo's sword), stumping Siri with a math question, cool apps, switching on a lightsaber, silicon implants, how to download a video from youtube, The Walking Dead and The Big Bang Theory.  He was even invited to a very popular Spanish variety show called "El Hormiguero".

 

Having verified the user, I watched the video mentioned in L7R comments.  It was posted 2 weeks ago and it's 28 minutes, all in Spanish.  He begins by saying that in his last video he had asked the people in the know (WOTW and L7R) to share their knowledge with him and that he received an email in response to that request.  He says he can't reveal his specific source, but he believes this is the information shared by those websites.  He then proceeds to warn people about major, major spoilers coming and then he reveals the information he got in the email.

 

I wrote it down in bullet points in English. Some info is similar to the supposed season summary leaked in 4Chan, some info is already known as it was spoiled on WOTW/L7R/etc. other information is different/new.  During the video he notes what kind of info it is (new, confirmed past spoiler, same as 4Chan, different to 4Chan).

 

To me, it sounded reasonable and plausible.  And the guy is apparently trusted.  In his past entries he's very careful to say what is a confirmed spoiler, what is of doubtful origin and what is his own speculation.  For those that speak Spanish, here's the youtube video:

 

For those that speak English, do you want me to post the summary here?  

Edited November 25, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[bunnyblue]

I was like "WTF?!, Jon won't be resurrected until episode 5 or 6?!" UNACCEPTABLE.

 

But after going over to Los Siete Reinos and reading it for myself, I agree with WearyTraveler that L7R is jumping to conclusions based on the fact that Jack Bender is directing the ToJ scenes. There is no reason why Jon has be resurrected in the same episode his true parentage is revealed. This is just speculation (or preference) by L7R that is now spreading like wildfire as fact.

 

Also, thanks, Lady S, for providing the link to the actual article. I can now stop panicking.

[bunnyblue]

OMG, WearyTraveler!!! I am speechless. Here it is past midnight and I just watched an adorable Spaniard spoil the hell out of Season 6! It all sounds plausible and so much of it has been confirmed by WotW and L7R. But the new information...dear God, the new info has left me shaking. I hope others watch the video because I need to discuss and dissect these possibly massive spoilers.

[WearyTraveler]

OMG, WearyTraveler!!! I am speechless. Here it is past midnight and I just watched an adorable Spaniard spoil the hell out of Season 6! It all sounds plausible and so much of it has been confirmed by WotW and L7R. But the new information...dear God, the new info has left me shaking. I hope others watch the video because I need to discuss and dissect these possibly massive spoilers.

 

I know right? So, once again I ask, do you guys want me to post the summary in English? I think the information about all the upcoming deaths is quite interesting.

[Hecate7]

Well, I'd like it on the spoiler page. I tried using subtitles and it seemed as if he wasn't really saying anything at all, except that spoilers exist and there are characters and things. Not very specific.

[nksarmi]

Perhaps post it with spoiler tags?  I equal parts curious and hesitant lol.

[WearyTraveler]

Ok, I'll put it in both since we have been discussing some of that information here (I guess it belongs to both, spoilers and S6 info). I'll include the general story area and spoiler tag the info.

 

1. King’s Landing:

Olenna asks Jaimie to free Margaery and Loras and provides him with the troops to do it. They find Margaery has converted to the Faith and she even becomes a septa. It’s not clear if she did this only to save herself or if she is truly a believer.

 

2. Arya:

recovers her sight, plays a role in the theater in Braavos and is supposed to kill a rich merchant there, but she doesn’t. The Waif comes after her, they fight and Arya kills The Waif. Arya then returns to Westeros.

 

3. Sam:

goes to Oldtown and visits his family. He claims little Sam as his son and leaves him in his family’s care.

 

4. The Greyjoys:

Yara rescues Theon and takes him to the Iron Islands. Balon Greyjoy calls for a big assembly, we meet Euron here. Balon dies and Euron becomes the leader of the Iron Islands. Yara dies but there’s no information as to how. The Greyjoys plot revolves around the horn that Euron has, but there are no details beyond that. Euron doesn’t go to Oldtown in search of the Maesters’ ancient book as the 4Chan summary claimed.

 

5. Bran Stark:

3 flashbacks. One is a scene for which there isn’t a lot of info, it could be about Bryndens Tully’s youth, it has already been filmed and there’s an albino actor in it. The second one is about Ned, Robert and Hodor’s childhood, Hodor’s real name is Walder and this scene reveals why he’s always saying Hodor, but the email does not confirm how this happens or if the 4Chan info is correct. The third one is the Tower of Joy. The episode title is “Promise me, Ned”. This last flashback they will reveal Jon’s parentage. To film this scene they almost emptied the set, except for 10 people who were absolutely necessary for filming

 

6. Daenerys:

Danny is captured as a slave and taken to Vaes Dothrak to live the rest of her life with the Dosh Khaleen. Drogon comes to the rescue setting the Dothraki temple on fire. The Dothraki are convinced that Dany is the one with the power and follow her

 

7. Mereen:

Tyrion is trying to hold the city. The Sons of the Harpy attack more and more ferociously. There’s a Red Priestess that becomes Tyrion’s right hand and tries to get the city under control with him. The Three Graces make their appearance, with the Green Grace in the lead, holding the most importance. The Green Grace will be revealed as the Leader of The Sons of the Harpy. There’s a massive attack from The Sons of The Harpy in episode 10 who slaughter a big chunk of the free slaves who supported Dany. Dany shows up at the eleventh hour with a Dothraki army who obliterate The Sons of the Harpy. There’s no scene featuring Danny leaving for Westeros.

 

8. The Riverlands:

Ian McShane is Septon Meribald. We’ll see The Hound again. The siege of Riverrun by the Freys will be featured. Jaime will go to the Riverlands, not to break the siege, but to ask for the Frey’s support against the Sparrows in King’s Landing. Brienne and Podrick will go to the Riverlands. Jaime and Brienne will meet again.

 

9. The Battle of Winterfell:

The Boltons will be supported by the Karstarks. The rest of the Northern families (Mormonts and Umbers are specifically mentioned) will fight with Jon and the Wildlings. The two people flayed on crosses are: Roose Bolton and Stannis Baratheon. Ramsay kills Roose because he’s afraid that he’d be replaced as heir by Wanda’s baby. Ramsay’s men find Stannis body in the woods, and Ramsay uses it to demoralize the Northern troops that oppose him. Jon, Sansa and Rickon will reunite in the battle. The Bolton troops massacre the Wildings, who are not disciplined enough to face them and are apparently the first to fall. Thormund dies. It is suspected that Wun Wun dies too, but that has not been confirmed because since he’s CGI, very few people know his fate. Ramsay and Jon face up, but Ramsey escapes. However, Ramsey is later killed by a direwolf; this is based on the actor having been seen wearing makeup that showed him with a huge bite on his neck. The Bolton troops appear to be winning, but, in the middle of the battle, Littlefinger shows up with the Vale’s army, in support of Jon Snow. In the middle of the confusion, there’s another death: Rickon Stark. He doesn’t die in a combat scene. His death happens outside the battle. And someone tries to take advantage of his death to push another heir to Winterfell.

 

10. The Wall:

The Wall will crack and fall. The White Walkers will cross it. Dolorous Edd will die. As the WW make it through The Wall, the bodies from the Battle of Winterfell will raise.

 

11. There’s a final battle waged at sea.

Very little is known about it because it’s got a lot of CGI and was filmed under a lot of secrecy. The participants are the Tyrells and Dorne, allied. No confirmation as to who they are fighting.

[Haleth]

there’s another death: Rickon Stark

 

Nooooo!

 

Dolorous Edd will die

 

Oh, HELL NO!  That is a deal breaker for me.

[nksarmi]

Ok nothing in there overly surprised me.  One thing disappointed me (

Rickon's death.

), but I could see GRRM doing it. I found the Marg spoiler confusing given what we've seen of her on the show, but I could see that as her book character's fate.  A lot of the other stuff we collectively kind of predicted.

 

The only thing that just outright pisses me off is

Littlefinger turning the battle in Jon's favor. Damn it. I hate him. I don't want to have to be grateful to the bastard for saving my hero. And if Rickon does die - I'm positive Littlefinger is going to be the one pushing for Sansa to be heir to Winterfell (thought who he will be pushing it to - I have no idea - the other Northern Lords perhaps?)  Oh and I wouldn't put it past Littlefinger to want to marry Sansa to the Vale, not through Robin, but through himself.  And she and Jon just might feel like they have to accept if he and the Vale are the ones who turned the battle.  After all, this is the war against the undead, not a war for the Iron Throne. Shit, crap, &*#@

.

. 

[Mya Stone]

Hmm. It sounds somewhat plausible except that Sue the Fury on WOTW stated that

Rickon wasn't a body on a cross...which I guess is still true if he does a different way BUT they flayed a headless Stannis??? I just don't know how much of that I buy.

Then there's nothing really

on Dorne or the Sand Snakes?

What about Myrcella's death?

I'm not saying this stuff couldn't be true, but it's pretty vague with some previously released details thrown in, in addition to some "big things." I just don't know.

Many thanks, WearyTraveler, for translating the info though!!!