Theories: What Is Going On?

[SlackerInc]

Those are really good questions, Jay.  I will be very annoyed if the "Truth" doesn't reconcile those and all others.

[KDeFlane]

Random theory/clue/question of the day: Were the hallucinations that Ethan was having really a sign of his impending shift in reality?  Was Ethan chosen because of his hallucinations, or were they a ripple backwards in time caused by his being selected?

[slothgirl]

Maybe it's a combination of different scenarios -- people being kidnapped and frozen, but then they are cloned and its the clones are who are being introduced into Wayward Pines, so sometimes that's why people have been in WP more than once (Beverly's "I've always believed you" comment) and also why they seem to have no problem with killing people because they will simply make another clone that will be introduced sometime later.  Combine that with children that are born in WP turning into some sort of weird cult (possibly by brainwashing) that is really controlling the people within WP.

Clones wouldn't have memories of the previous incarnation's experiences though would they? Maybe in this world they have figured out how to do that, but I would expect (refardless of what happened in Invasion of the Body Snatchers) that cloning is a physical process only. A clone is created from DNA, not from information stored in the brain.

 

But I suppose since this is fiction, anything is possible.

[mavigogun]

A few observations:

In episode 3, when Ethan was in the transportation bay, only one of the many terminals was marked "Wayward Pines"; the technology appeared mostly contemporary, aside from the circular light fixtures.   None of the vehicles seen there were from after Ethan's time.

In episode 4, "Doctor Jenkins" says that he is "checking on the progress of my latest species- she's a crossbreed of two different pines".

The former sheriff drove around with a remote for opening gates in the fence.

In this latest episode, we are told that it is the year 4028.   We see a quarter reputed to be from 2095, perhaps bearing an image of Crater Lake on the reverse.   We see a washing machine that may well be the most advance piece of technology revealed in town, aside from the fence and gate.   The helicopter that David Pilcher arrives in isn't from 2095- it's contemporary to Ethan's time, as are the weapons of the soldier.

So- what?

Some speculation:

For some reason, it is critical that folks in Wayward Pines, on the most part, think a certain way- believe and act out a fiction.   Why?   Especially when the children are excluded from that, taken into a cabal of revelation- but only after demonstrating a degree of flexibility, ability to detach from the past.   I reckon there could be quantum mechanical rules at play- reality being set only once measured;  our characters are quantum entangled parties, projections of their original selves.   Existence in the "now" requires either an intellect still developing or complacent non-questioning- otherwise, the entanglement is foiled.   In this scenario, the only artifacts available after projection are those found- such as old quarters.   In such a case, everything in Wayward Pines has either endured since whatever the calamity that struck in 2095, or is a projection from Ethan's time.
 

So, what about those other terminals in the transportation bay?   Other time-themed locations?   Perhaps- but to what end?   I don't buy the "repopulate the future" narrative.  Whatever the Doctor is, he wants something from the past- and not necessarily genetics for experiments, but something else *preserved*.
 

It may be that Wayward Pines- and the other terminal locations -are theme parks for a future intelligence, a singularity.   A sort of living history, where, like Jesus, the godlike may become human, get a glimpse of where it came from, how we thought.
 

If that last is the case, then those things outside the wall are refugees from a lost war with the machines.

[Maximum Taco]

Called it!

 

Hibernation/Cryogenics. It really was the only explanation as to how multiple people thought it was a different year and more time had passed inside Wayward Pines for some people but less had passed for others.

 

Still how the hell did Pilcher predict what was going to happen over 2000 years into the future? I mean civilization was obviously still going along ok in 2095, how did he know in 1990's (when Beverly and Arlene were frozen) what was going to happen after 2095?

Edited June 12, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[janie jones]

Clones wouldn't have memories of the previous incarnation's experiences though would they? Maybe in this world they have figured out how to do that, but I would expect (refardless of what happened in Invasion of the Body Snatchers) that cloning is a physical process only. A clone is created from DNA, not from information stored in the brain.

 

But I suppose since this is fiction, anything is possible.

I kind of feel like in general when fictional clones are made not the way Dolly the sheep was made but by photocopying an existing person, the clone does have the original person's memories.  Well, I don't know if that's "generally" how it works, but I've seen it more than once, so if that's what's going on here, this wouldn't be the first fictional world in which cloning worked like that.

[Maximum Taco]

The biggest problem I have with the cloning theory is that why would they replace anyone who died with new people? Why bother saying they "retired" at all when they could just clone another one and shove him into the old guys place? It would be unbelievably easy, especially if they could replicate the deceased's memories in the new clone.

 

Why replace Pope as Sheriff with Ethan when they could just clone another Pope who would know exactly what the old Pope knew? That would be a lot easier then training a new Sheriff to follow and enforce the rules.

 

The fact that we haven't seen any of the dead "come back" throws water on them being clones IMO.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[janie jones]

Yeah, especially since no one in town even know Pope was dead.  I could see a problem with cloning though, because wouldn't they have the original person's memories up until the time of the cloning?  I mean, if they thawed out one of the clones, they wouldn't know what happened in the past six months or whatever.

[plurie]

Either this is really BAD science fiction, or the "Truth" isn't the real (or whole) truth. It doesn't make sense that humans would "devolve" in only 2000 years. Society might collapse, but humans would still be human. And if they're trying to create some sort of ark, why aren't they trying for self-sufficiency? No farms, no factories, no infrastructure of any kind exists in WP! Where do they get the spare parts, where do the electricity and gasoline come from, what do they do with all the waste, what will they do when they run out of food? And none of this explains why they're lying to the adults and killing people willy nilly.

[grandemocha]

 

And none of this explains why they're lying to the adults and killing people willy nilly.

They explained (but not as well as they could have) why they lied to adults. Chris told his parents, parents freaked out, three people ended up dead. It's often thought that children are far more adaptable to new environments/ situations than adult are. Kids can roll with the punches and adjust while you have to deal with adults who would be dealing with feelings of loss, depression, anger, etc knowing that everyone they knew for the past 35-40 years (assuming adults in town are around that age) are dead and gone. Kids have only lived for 12-15 years (using the teens we met as an example) and they have their whole lives ahead of them, not so much for the parents who would know a whole other lifetime.

 

 

That's what they SAID to the children, but I don't buy it.

Okay. Well I buy it. This episode has been billed by the creators of the show and the media as ANSWERS answers answers for the audience and with only five episodes left, I'm going to take weird hypno teacher's explanation at face value. She provided evidence which leads me to believe it's all fairly true.

Edited June 12, 2015 by grandemocha

[plurie]

They explained (but not as well as they could have) why they lied to adults. Chris told his parents, parents freaked out, three people ended up dead. It's often thought that children are far more adaptable to new environments/ situations than adult are. Kids can roll with the punches and adjust while you have to deal with adults who would be dealing with feelings of loss, depression, anger, etc knowing that everyone they knew for the past 35-40 years (assuming adults in town are around that age) are dead and gone. Kids have only lived for 12-15 years (using the teens we met as an example) and they have their whole lives ahead of them, not so much for the parents who would know a whole other lifetime.

That's what they SAID to the children, but I don't buy it. They could just as easily have indoctrinated the adults while they were in the "hospital."

[Tabasco Cat]

Called it!

 

Hibernation/Cryogenics. It really was the only explanation as to how multiple people thought it was a different year and more time had passed inside Wayward Pines for some people but less had passed for others.

 

Still how the hell did Pilcher predict what was going to happen over 2000 years into the future? I mean civilization was obviously still going along ok in 2095, how did he know in 1990's (when Beverly and Arlene were frozen) what was going to happen after 2095?

 

Maybe, but I'm not sold yet. The new arrival could be a plant sent in to tell the story of the warehouse full of hibernating people just waiting to be used as replacements. How did Pilcher interact with people in Seattle in the first episode? How did Pope go back to cut the brake lines on the Burkes's car? There could be some suspended animation/cryogenics/hibernation going on but that can't be all of it. I need to see Ted Williams's head in cold storage before I believe that (metaphorically, of course, and we may yet see it's true), and not just hear it from some schlub who just arrived.

 

There's no way such drastic (d)evolution could happen in a mere 2,000 years. Evolution happens slowly over millions of years. Going back from today to biblical times 2,000 years ago wouldn't reveal homo sapiens too much different from what we are today. Going back further, to the time of ancient Egypt roughly 4 or 5 thousand years ago would be the same. That explanation doesn't hold water. There's something else going on.

 

I'm thinking there might be a tribe of "good abbies" somewhere who are pulling the strings and trying to figure out how to neutralize the ferals and return humanity to some semblance of civilization. Either there's time travel involved or everything Pilcher and Co. are saying is bullshit.

 

Where are they getting fuel for that chopper, by the way? You can't store kerosene or Jet-A or gasoline for 2,000 years and expect it to not break down into unusable gunk.

 

Nope. I'm not buying any of it.

[tardistravler]

I am thinking that there are more humans alive than wayward pines. I like to think positively in that the future of human kind does not rest on Wayward Pines soley. They might not be as "sophisticated" as people from wayward pines, but know how to survive the abbies. 

 

Maybe this situation only affected North America and the other parts of earth are ok. IDK it seems kinda stupid though to not have farms and stuff. 

 

Oh and I bet a billion Wayward Pine dollars that Pilcher was the one who created these abby things. He just has a God complex and wanted to be the benevolent savior of mankind. 

[FishyJoe]

I'm not buying the future theory. It seems like that's what they want people to believe. Otherwise it makes no sense that everything is 2014 technology. If this actually were the future, you would expect that their surveillance equipment would be practically invisible. Not to mention the 'guard' soldiers would have something more advanced than 2014 guns and equipment. At least I hope it's all a ruse, otherwise this show will rise to a new level of stupidity.

 

And if they really want to preserve the past and culture, why are they stopping everyone from talking about it? And if those abbies are so powerful, why are they so easily stopped by a wall and electric fence?

Edited June 13, 2015 by FishyJoe

[grandemocha]

 

If this actually were the future, you would expect that their surveillance equipment would be practically invisible.

 

How and why would you expect them to have super!future guns, surveillance equipment or dishwashers when it was clearly stated that they went into hibernation a long long time ago? Ethan went into hibernation in 2014, Beverley and Kate before him, Theresa and Ben after him, Peter before him....from what we've been presented with on the show, it seems like the majority of people were asleep before the devolution and before all the cool future tech was created.

 

Also..this is just a show on FOX with a budget. 

[ottoDbusdriver]

How and why would you expect them to have super!future guns, surveillance equipment or dishwashers when it was clearly stated that they went into hibernation a long long time ago? Ethan went into hibernation in 2014, Beverley and Kate before him, Theresa and Ben after him, Peter before him....from what we've been presented with on the show, it seems like the majority of people were asleep before the devolution and before all the cool future tech was created.

 

For me, that's one of the bigger questions -- why did they appear to stop collecting people in 2014 ?  As far as we know, no one has been introduced from a later year than 2014, but based on that quarter, a functioning civilization continued on for at least another 80 years.  So you would think that they would have much more futuristic equipment outside of WP ?  The helicopter and the soldier's tactical gear was all pretty much stock 2014.

Edited June 13, 2015 by ottoDbusdriver

[KDeFlane]

And if they really want to preserve the past and culture, why are they stopping everyone from talking about it?

 

I'm not sure they want to preserve the past.  "They" want to preserve the human genome, or at least the human race at the point of homo sapiens modernus or whatever.  Even though WP is a slice of historical culture, I think the expectation is that the teenagers will spawn a new culture.

[FishyJoe]

Well, I really hope it's not some kind of cryogenic preserved future. If it is true, then it will make the 'dome' sound quite reasonable.

[Maximum Taco]

Maybe, but I'm not sold yet. The new arrival could be a plant sent in to tell the story of the warehouse full of hibernating people just waiting to be used as replacements. How did Pilcher interact with people in Seattle in the first episode? How did Pope go back to cut the brake lines on the Burkes's car? There could be some suspended animation/cryogenics/hibernation going on but that can't be all of it. I need to see Ted Williams's head in cold storage before I believe that (metaphorically, of course, and we may yet see it's true), and not just hear it from some schlub who just arrived.

 

There's no way such drastic (d)evolution could happen in a mere 2,000 years. Evolution happens slowly over millions of years. Going back from today to biblical times 2,000 years ago wouldn't reveal homo sapiens too much different from what we are today. Going back further, to the time of ancient Egypt roughly 4 or 5 thousand years ago would be the same. That explanation doesn't hold water. There's something else going on.

 

I'm thinking there might be a tribe of "good abbies" somewhere who are pulling the strings and trying to figure out how to neutralize the ferals and return humanity to some semblance of civilization. Either there's time travel involved or everything Pilcher and Co. are saying is bullshit.

 

Where are they getting fuel for that chopper, by the way? You can't store kerosene or Jet-A or gasoline for 2,000 years and expect it to not break down into unusable gunk.

 

Nope. I'm not buying any of it.

 

The interactions are pretty easy to explain. Nobody goes back, it just seems that way because of the editing.

 

When Pilcher is interacting with Ethan's boss he's explaining Ethan's freezing/hibernation inducment. You should note that he's never really specific with what he has done with Ethan. So Pilcher has Ethan frozen, then he interacts with the boss, then Pilcher freezes himself and finally roughly 2000 years later Pilcher has himself unfrozen.

 

Ditto with Pope. Pope interacts with Theresa and Ben before he himself is put into hibernation. Pilcher tells Pope that Theresa and Ben are snooping around Wayward Pines (this is WP in 2014) and Pope puts them on ice. Then at a time in the future Pope himself is frozen. Then 2000 years later Pope is unfrozen.

 

No going back and forth everyone is frozen once and defrosted once. Or maybe Pilcher and his team are frozen and defrosted multiple times so they can check up on everything? Just hoping 2000 years will go as planned seems pretty foolish.

 

Your scientific arguments about the rapidity of the (d)evolution and the shelf life of the gasoline have a lot of merit. But I'm thinking that's just inaccuracies to do with the writers either not caring or not knowing the sciences. Either that or the chopper is running on alternative fuels, and the d(evolution) was "helped" along, maybe by Pilcher.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Lrdmordain]

I'm also not buying into their story at all. Just for example, the Burke's car, which when Ethan found it did have some dust on it, should have been rusted to nothing in 2000 years if the story was true. Even saying well they locked it up in some 2000 year old air tight vault wouldn't work because A. Really? Why the hell would they even do that? It's not like Ethan was supposed to see that car and clearly the other Burkes were never going to see the car....and B. It would still degrade over time, that is just a fact of matter.

 

I think it's science experiment on the "ark people" to see if they can make them believe this story.

[janie jones]

Yeah, why didn't the facility that housed all the frozen people fall into ruins in two thousand years?

[photo fox]

Apparently the episodes are available ahead of the air date in some places.  If you're able to see it before the U.S. air date, you're free to post about the episode in the episode topic only without spoiler tags.  However, information about unaired episodes are considered spoilers in this and every other topic, and should be tagged accordingly.

 

Also, this is a no book-talk area.  I know it's tempting to "help", but if you've read the books, please let the folks who haven't read them have the fun of trying to figure out the mystery on their own.

[Tabasco Cat]

The interactions are pretty easy to explain. Nobody goes back, it just seems that way because of the editing.

 

Well.... could be. I give you +1 for effort. And you were right about cryogenic hibernation... so far. We're still searching for the Wayward Pines Theory of Everything and yours does fit a lot of what we've seen. It's no worse than any of the others, that's for sure!

 

When Theresa logs in to the Secret Service computer in Idaho, the SS guy in Seattle is seen on the phone telling somebody, "We've got a problem, she's headed your way" or something similar. If Pope and whoever else was around in 2014 Wayward Pines were engaged in their collection activities right then, why would that be a problem? Why wouldn't he say, "Two more headed your way! Scoop 'em up! The more the merrier and, besides, the kid has First Generation potential!"

 

I'm now onto the whole "it's all about the children" angle. And not just the children, but the children's minds. There are a lot of well-worn stories there and I hope this one is a bit more creative. Those who have read the books say the conclusion is well worth it. I hope they're right.

 

(And no, I do NOT want to know anything about the books! If the first word on page 52 is "the" I still don't want to hear it.)

[janie jones]

When Theresa logs in to the Secret Service computer in Idaho, the SS guy in Seattle is seen on the phone telling somebody, "We've got a problem, she's headed your way" or something similar. If Pope and whoever else was around in 2014 Wayward Pines were engaged in their collection activities right then, why would that be a problem? Why wouldn't he say, "Two more headed your way! Scoop 'em up! The more the merrier and, besides, the kid has First Generation potential!"

The way this family was taken confuses me.  If they didn't want Teresa and Ben, they could have just not taken them.  The two would have gone to 2014 Wayward Pines, not found Ethan, and resigned themselves to the idea that he had left them for Kate.  If they did want all three of them, why didn't they just take all three of them together?  Did they want Teresa to be looking for Ethan?  If so, then why did they reunite them so quickly?

[Tabasco Cat]

It's all really bizarre. Which is why I like it :) Maybe the selectees have to be dead to be sent on to the future WP? Why is the last thing most of them remember an accident? Pope could not have cut the brake lines on the Burke car with 100% certainty that they would not be killed in the accident that was sure to follow. The way Wayne Johnson's (cone moving guy) accident was described sounded like he was blotto'ed by a passing vehicle. Are they all dead/resurrected/healed with 41st century (or 2097) medical technology?

[Maximum Taco]

The way this family was taken confuses me.  If they didn't want Teresa and Ben, they could have just not taken them.  The two would have gone to 2014 Wayward Pines, not found Ethan, and resigned themselves to the idea that he had left them for Kate.  If they did want all three of them, why didn't they just take all three of them together?  Did they want Teresa to be looking for Ethan?  If so, then why did they reunite them so quickly?

 

I think at first they just wanted Ethan, but then when Theresa and Ben came sniffing around they felt like they may as well take them too.

 

When Theresa logs in to the Secret Service computer in Idaho, the SS guy in Seattle is seen on the phone telling somebody, "We've got a problem, she's headed your way" or something similar. If Pope and whoever else was around in 2014 Wayward Pines were engaged in their collection activities right then, why would that be a problem? Why wouldn't he say, "Two more headed your way! Scoop 'em up! The more the merrier and, besides, the kid has First Generation potential!"

 

That assumes that SS guy is fully clued in to the Wayward Pines plan though. Maybe he was just a lackey. We haven't seen him in WP yet, so he may not have really been an integral part of the plan and Pilcher was just duping him. 

 

I don't think Pilcher was ever shown being worried about Theresa and Ben (anyone who has the early episodes DVRed or whatever feel free to correct me), it was just Ethan's boss who was worried, and I don't know how much Ethan's boss knew.

For all we know after Pilcher was notified about Theresa and Ben he could've been like "Cha-ching! Three for the price of one baby!"

Edited June 13, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Tabasco Cat]

One thing is for certain, there are certainly plenty of lackeys around. In one ep Ethan tells Pam and the Sheriff, after they get a mysterious phone call, "I'm talking to the wrong people. You're not in charge here." I bet Pilcher isn't in charge either.  He is Lackey #1. Pam is Lackey #2. She tries harder.

[Centaur]

Given that the realty contracts state that they are authorise by the 'David Pilcher Act', I'm betting that Pilcher is the supreme authority and that his word is law. But to maintain his authority would require a monopoly on violence and the habitual obedience of the citizens of Wayward Pines. As soon as any dissent gets aired, he obviously has it wiped out. His closest underlings would all need to be fanatics. So he might have made a mistake with Ethan.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Centaur

[KDeFlane]

...Pilcher is the supreme authority and that his word is law... His closest underlings would all need to be fanatics.

 

Listening to Mrs.F give her student orientation, she has elevated Pilcher to god status.  Her hand gestures towards the end were like she was lifting up her praises in a prayer worship service. "You'll never meet him, just know he's watching over you."  Either God, or Santa Claus.

[JenE4]

Ok, I know we have bigger mysteries in our hands, but I can't get over how Ben was eating breakfast with the refrigerator open--just like the refrigerator was open for the entire scene when Ethan reunited with Theresa and Ben in the house. This episode also had a scene with a distracted Theresa contemplating at the sink with the water on full blast. I'm going to let the dryer running w/out clothes and Theresa and Ben running the water in an earlier episode pass as a valid use of resources so they could speak freely. Yet, is this show an allegory for a society of consumption not caring about limited resources? I can't figure out how these people are possibly getting the energy to run the refrigerator and the clean, running water--let alone everything else--and here these idiots are never closing their refrigerator or turning off the faucet. Of course it just might be that the director likes the look of the refrigerator light backlighting the kitchen. But maybe another reason for the downfall of humanity is that they couldn't survive with the ever-increasing reliance on technology and the over-use of resources. Those Abbies seem to be just fine running around in the woods with nothing--just gnawing on a deer or two. Wheras the humans, while surviving without TV and cell phones (only limited radio and rotary phones), still have these huge gorgeous houses with appliances and all of the buffalo burgers and alcohol they could ever want. Maybe that's why homo sapiens had to devolve--the earth could no longer support the way evolution had taxed its resources, and the homo sapiens weren't fit to survive without all of their stuff.

ETA: Although I suppose it's more likely that the focus on refrigeration--especially the shot of Ethan breathing on the frosted glass of the refrigerated delivery truck--was just foreshadowing that they were "refrigerated" for 2,000 years.

But now I'm doubling down that buffalo burger has to mean something. They said buffalo burger like 17 times--ok, maybe 3. But we know there are no buffalo roaming around WP, and there don't seem to be any wild buffalo in the woods--just Abbies and deer. So I guess that is the point--where is this buffalo meat coming from and/or is it truly buffalo?

ETA 2: And even in 2014 WILD American buffalo are extinct, aren't they? They are commercially farmed, though. Chances are I'm 2000 years they would be extinct. I guess if farmlands went wild without humans maybe buffalo would be able to adapt to the wild rather than cows. I might be making much more to this than it is, lol.

Edited June 13, 2015 by JenE4

[FishyJoe]

I'm also not buying into their story at all. Just for example, the Burke's car, which when Ethan found it did have some dust on it, should have been rusted to nothing in 2000 years if the story was true. Even saying well they locked it up in some 2000 year old air tight vault wouldn't work because A. Really? Why the hell would they even do that? It's not like Ethan was supposed to see that car and clearly the other Burkes were never going to see the car....and B. It would still degrade over time, that is just a fact of matter.

 

I think it's science experiment on the "ark people" to see if they can make them believe this story.

 

Not only would metal corrode, but rubber and plastic would dessicate. And they would also need to store the food, clothes and everything else. Unless they have some kind of replicator that is able to recreate everything. You just can't lock stuff in a room for 2000 years without decay. 

[Jel]

I posted in the Truth episode thread that I was under the assumption that the writer and producer were aware of the factual inconsistencies, and so I expected them to have another forthcoming (further) explanation for the way things really are. 

 

Yes, it's fiction, science fiction, I guess one could argue that there needs to be some suspension of disbelief, but then why call it THE TRUTH, why make a point of using "evidence" that's not really evidence of the actual truth (as it would be, if it were indeed the truth).

 

That's what stymies me right now.

 

eta: grammar fix

Edited June 13, 2015 by Jel

[janie jones]

ETA 2: And even in 2014 WILD American buffalo are extinct, aren't they? They are commercially farmed, though. Chances are I'm 2000 years they would be extinct. I guess if farmlands went wild without humans maybe buffalo would be able to adapt to the wild rather than cows. I might be making much more to this than it is, lol.

There are about 30,000 wild buffalo left, on top of hundreds of thousands of domesticated ones (source).  I agree that their numbers would bounce back once they regained some room to roam.

Edited June 13, 2015 by janie jones

[KDeFlane]

Yes, it's fiction, science fiction, I guess one could argue that there needs to be some suspension of disbelief, but then why call it THE TRUTH, why make a point of using "evidence" that's not really evidence of the actual truth (as it would be, if it were indeed the truth).

 

My head is spinning from the many layers to this question of fact vs fiction.  From within the show, from the viewpoint of the characters, how much evidence should a person require to believe the unbelievable situation they appear to be in?  Should Ethan have insisted on a fly-over of Boise? Should he have insisted on touching the ruins himself? If I were in his boots, I don't know if I would doubt anything I'm being told at this point, after having just witnessed devolved humoids munching within arm's length of my own face.

 

From the meta perch, from the vantage as viewers being fed a narrative, we can insist on internal consistency and maybe some hand-wavey dismissal of "whatever" technology. Explanations only slow down the plot and invite further scrutiny.  I don't mind having an unreliable narrator, and I don't mind being misled in the case of a mystery show.  Some of the best TV moments are the sly reveals, if the clues are laid out in a natural way. 

 

But as a puzzle enthusiast, I have problems when I can't see the difference between what is an intentional clue and what is a simple oversight, and I really hate sloppy mistakes.  I'm still willing to give this show the leeway to tell me its own version of its own facts in its own way, even if I need to maintain several conflicting theories as to what I think is going on.  (Androids on a Holodeck!)

[Jel]

How and why would you expect them to have super!future guns, surveillance equipment or dishwashers when it was clearly stated that they went into hibernation a long long time ago? Ethan went into hibernation in 2014, Beverley and Kate before him, Theresa and Ben after him, Peter before him....from what we've been presented with on the show, it seems like the majority of people were asleep before the devolution and before all the cool future tech was created.

 

Also..this is just a show on FOX with a budget. 

Lol at the Fox show with a budget, good point!

 

There was enough civilization left to at least be minting coins in 2095 (IIRC) though, so wouldn't it be reasonable to expect some significant technological advances from 2014 to 2095?  Did the helicopter look futuristic at all? (I can't remember)  The file folders in Ethan's (how quickly they forget!) office looked a little space age-y.  Unless, society was unravelling so quickly...bah, this show is messing with my head. ;)

 

ETA: Just read OttoDBusdriver's post on this -- said it better than I did

Edited June 13, 2015 by Jel

[FishyJoe]

I posted in the Truth episode thread that I was under the assumption that the writer and producer were aware of the factual inconsistencies, and so I expected them to have another forthcoming (further) explanation for the way things really are. 

 

Yes, it's fiction, science fiction, I guess one could argue that there needs to be some suspension of disbelief, but then why call it THE TRUTH, why make a point of using "evidence" that's not really evidence of the actual truth (as it would be, if it were indeed the truth).

 

That's what stymies me right now.

 

eta: grammar fix

 

That's exactly why I wouldn't believe it. When people say they are telling you the truth, they are usually lying to some degree. People who are being truthful, don't need all the deception. The entire town is a deception. I have no reason to believe the people who built it. 

[slothgirl]

The biggest problem I have with the cloning theory is that why would they replace anyone who died with new people? Why bother saying they "retired" at all when they could just clone another one and shove him into the old guys place? It would be unbelievably easy, especially if they could replicate the deceased's memories in the new clone.

 

Why replace Pope as Sheriff with Ethan when they could just clone another Pope who would know exactly what the old Pope knew? That would be a lot easier then training a new Sheriff to follow and enforce the rules.

 

The fact that we haven't seen any of the dead "come back" throws water on them being clones IMO.

I agree. I don't see any point to them being clones, and I haven't seen any evidence to support the theory that they are.

 

On the other hand, if you are trying to repopulate the earth, killing off your citizens is counterproductive. There's a real need in this "community" to establish fear to control people. Why?

 

My guess is that the mad scientist creator ended up with a God complex and just likes it that way. There doesn't seem to be any real practical advantage to making them afraid of retribution rather than ecouraging them to be justifiably afraid of life outside the fence.

[grandemocha]

On the other hand, if you are trying to repopulate the earth, killing off your citizens is counterproductive.

 

That is true. I mean I guess they are given three strikes before they're killed but if it was me (and I'm far more reasonable than whoever thinks it's okay to have the town hunt down 1 person) and the person wasn't going along with the program, I'd just put them through cuckoo hypno teacher's brainwashing sessions to make them go along instead of killing them.

Edited June 13, 2015 by grandemocha

[slothgirl]

 

There's no way such drastic (d)evolution could happen in a mere 2,000 years. Evolution happens slowly over millions of years. Going back from today to biblical times 2,000 years ago wouldn't reveal homo sapiens too much different from what we are today. Going back further, to the time of ancient Egypt roughly 4 or 5 thousand years ago would be the same. That explanation doesn't hold water. There's something else going on.

 

I'm guessing that the time frame of the devolution is either just a poorly thought out plot detail, or the devolution came about with man's increasing understanding (read: meddling) in genetics, the human genome (especially as it relates to other primates) and DNA. The orientation mentioned that the Abbies are only 1/2 % different from "humans". That is sorta believable since chimps are only, what.. 3% different from us in their DNA?

 

The Abbies however display less "civilized" behavior than even Mountain Gorillas (not that we've seen a lot  of their behavior yet besides frantic eating that I guess the showrunners mean to lure in the zombie-flick fans). And as someone pointed out in either this thread or an episode one, if abbies are the apex predator, there should be boatloads of prey out there and we saw almost no evidence of it.

 

I'm thinking that when they keep talking about "Evolution", that what they mean is "Natural Selection", which, as any Bio 101 student will tell you, is NOT the same thing.

 

 So Homo Sapiens didn't slowly devolve into abbies over 2000 years. SOME humans becamse abbie-humanoids through some scientific thing gone awry or gene mutation that cropped up for some reason (viruses? Chemicals warfare?). Then because the Abbies had the killing power of Velocirapters, they just eventually wiped out HomoSapiens over 2000 years. Or at least wiped out enough of them to destroy connected civilization, leaving the possiblity of pockets, but no way to interact between surviving pockets of humans. Then even the abbies are affected by natural selection: the most successful predator abbies propugating that lineage and things going from bad to worse.

 

This is the only way it makes sense to me.

Edited June 13, 2015 by slothgirl

[slothgirl]

 If they did want all three of them, why didn't they just take all three of them together?

Maybe because staging an accident out in the middle of nowhere (where the accident wouldn't have witnesses) with all 3 of them was too hard because they were never together?

[SlackerInc]

How and why would you expect them to have super!future guns, surveillance equipment or dishwashers when it was clearly stated that they went into hibernation a long long time ago? Ethan went into hibernation in 2014, Beverley and Kate before him, Theresa and Ben after him, Peter before him....from what we've been presented with on the show, it seems like the majority of people were asleep before the devolution and before all the cool future tech was created.

Also..this is just a show on FOX with a budget.

Again I find myself consigning grandemocha's argument. I am not his/her sock puppet though, I swear! I just think people are overthinking this, and expecting too much from a low budget summer FOX miniseries.

[TexasChic]

But now I'm doubling down that buffalo burger has to mean something. They said buffalo burger like 17 times--ok, maybe 3. But we know there are no buffalo roaming around WP, and there don't seem to be any wild buffalo in the woods--just Abbies and deer. So I guess that is the point--where is this buffalo meat coming from and/or is it truly buffalo?

ETA 2: And even in 2014 WILD American buffalo are extinct, aren't they? They are commercially farmed, though. Chances are I'm 2000 years they would be extinct. I guess if farmlands went wild without humans maybe buffalo would be able to adapt to the wild rather than cows. I might be making much more to this than it is, lol.

Maybe buffalo burgers are people!!! And reckonings happen when they get low on food! Didn't they say something about the abbies decimating the wildlife, or did I make that up?

I'm guessing that the time frame of the devolution is either just a poorly thought out plot detail, or the devolution came about with man's increasing understanding (read: meddling) in genetics, the human genome (especially as it relates to other primates) and DNA. The orientation mentioned that the Abbies are only 1/2 % different from "humans". That is sorta believable since chimps are only, what.. 3% different from us in their DNA?

The Abbies however display less "civilized" behavior than even Mountain Gorillas (not that we've seen a lot of their behavior yet besides frantic eating that I guess the showrunners mean to lure in the zombie-flick fans). And as someone pointed out in either this thread or an episode one, if abbies are the apex predator, there should be boatloads of prey out there and we saw almost no evidence of it.

I'm thinking that when they keep talking about "Evolution", that what they mean is "Natural Selection", which, as any Bio 101 student will tell you, is NOT the same thing.

So Homo Sapiens didn't slowly devolve into abbies over 2000 years. SOME humans becamse abbie-humanoids through some scientific thing gone awry or gene mutation that cropped up for some reason (viruses? Chemicals warfare?). Then because the Abbies had the killing power of Velocirapters, they just eventually wiped out HomoSapiens over 2000 years. Or at least wiped out enough of them to destroy connected civilization, leaving the possiblity of pockets, but no way to interact between surviving pockets of humans. Then even the abbies are affected by natural selection: the most successful predator abbies propugating that lineage and things going from bad to worse.

This is the only way it makes sense to me.

This was my theory as well, except I wasn't aware of the difference between devolving and natural selection (no Biology 101 for me). Makes sense though.

Edited June 13, 2015 by TexasChic

[ottoDbusdriver]

I'm thinking that when they keep talking about "Evolution", that what they mean is "Natural Selection", which, as any Bio 101 student will tell you, is NOT the same thing.

 

The Abbies almost remind me more of the darkseekers from the movie 'I Am Legend' -- where some genetically modified virus mutates with disastrous consequences and kills off a large percentage of the population, and most of those that survive are mutated but become more primitive and become the dominant predators in the world.

[TexasChic]

I was just thinking, Ethan's boss seemed to be the one to make the arrangements for Ethan to be taken to WP. Does this mean he's not "special"? Does Pilcher simply take people who are convenient to make disappear? Or is he maybe working with the government?

Edited June 14, 2015 by TexasChic

[pezgirl7]

Could any items from the past be put in a vacuum to preserve them? I read that lack of oxygen will prevent weathering and chemical degradation. But how do you keep the outside of the vacuum container from deteriorating? I hope they answer the questions about how the town was built and where the materials came from.

[SlackerInc]

Strange to take Beverly but not her daughter. And Kate being there 12 years and now probably both she and Beverly are too old to have a good chance of propagation.

The interactions are pretty easy to explain. Nobody goes back, it just seems that way because of the editing.

When Pilcher is interacting with Ethan's boss he's explaining Ethan's freezing/hibernation inducment. You should note that he's never really specific with what he has done with Ethan. So Pilcher has Ethan frozen, then he interacts with the boss, then Pilcher freezes himself and finally roughly 2000 years later Pilcher has himself unfrozen.

Ditto with Pope. Pope interacts with Theresa and Ben before he himself is put into hibernation. Pilcher tells Pope that Theresa and Ben are snooping around Wayward Pines (this is WP in 2014) and Pope puts them on ice. Then at a time in the future Pope himself is frozen. Then 2000 years later Pope is unfrozen.

No going back and forth everyone is frozen once and defrosted once. Or maybe Pilcher and his team are frozen and defrosted multiple times so they can check up on everything? Just hoping 2000 years will go as planned seems pretty foolish.

Your scientific arguments about the rapidity of the (d)evolution and the shelf life of the gasoline have a lot of merit. But I'm thinking that's just inaccuracies to do with the writers either not caring or not knowing the sciences. Either that or the chopper is running on alternative fuels, and the d(evolution) was "helped" along, maybe by Pilcher.

I cosign all of this, including the writers not knowing/caring about the science. It's like on TWD with years going by and they are still driving cars.

You just can't lock stuff in a room for 2000 years without decay.

Not even if it is dry and dark? What about the Dead Sea Scrolls?

One thing I was curious about...why is the house at 604 1st street so delapidated? Supposedly this community is only 14 years old, why is there a house that shows 50 + years of wear? It's not like it could be an original building, it would long be dust in 2000 years. Any opinions?

That definitely needs to be explained, along with why Pope claimed the CSI team from Boise was coming and all that. Oh, and why Beverly said it was her address.

Also, didn't Ethan see more medical personnel in the pilot?

[Tabasco Cat]

Could any items from the past be put in a vacuum to preserve them? I read that lack of oxygen will prevent weathering and chemical degradation. But how do you keep the outside of the vacuum container from deteriorating? I hope they answer the questions about how the town was built and where the materials came from.

 

Yes, that would work for a lot of things. With no impacts throwing up dust (and ignoring the dust kicked up from ascent-stage liftoff) explorers on the Moon 2,000 years from now would find the leftover Apollo hardware looking pretty much exactly like it did the day it was left behind.

[jhlipton]

They explained (but not as well as they could have) why they lied to adults. Chris told his parents, parents freaked out, three people ended up dead.

 

Okay. Well I buy it. This episode has been billed by the creators of the show and the media as ANSWERS answers answers for the audience and with only five episodes left, I'm going to take weird hypno teacher's explanation at face value. She provided evidence which leads me to believe it's all fairly true.

Again, just like with Bill, the "suicides" may have been Reckonings.

There are ways of telling people hard news without freaking them out to the point of suicide. "Honey, your grandma was on the roof..."

 

I wonder if they know how to "defrost" people but not refreeze them. Otherwise, why not just re-carbonite any trouble-makers?

(This show stepped in the Unreliable Narrator problem big time. I really wonder why they brought up Ethan's hallucinations in the first episode, if it doesn't matter by the fifth. If it matters later, bring it up then. But I guess I will take hypno-teach at face value.)

 

===============================

 

ETA:  The Dead Sea Scrolls are a good example of decay even in a sealed dry area.  There's major gaps in the ones we have, and those are a small portion of the known scrolls.

Edited June 14, 2015 by jhlipton

[DesertCyclist]

When Ethan called his wife and it went to voicemail, how is it that he heard her 2000 year old message exactly?

[jhlipton]

When Ethan called his wife and it went to voicemail, how is it that he heard her 2000 year old message exactly?

 

That was frozen too!  LOL