Supersuits, Sets, and Special Effects: The Production Topic

[Kendra]

I think the suit is fine. It's the massive amount of photoshopping and the way he's posed that is really throwing things off for me. His face looks really weird and I don't know why because he's certainly very attractive. I definitely think the best part of that photo is the girl standing next to him :) 

I'm interested to see how well he portrays Clark Kent. For me, that will be key in whether or not I will like Tyler in the role. It's a tricky thing to do and Melissa is SOOO good at it in my opinion. I hope Tyler can keep up. 

I'm still not buying for one second that his appearance will be short lived. You don't cast SUPERMAN(!!!) and only use him for 2 episodes. And if they are doing what I think they are doing with the pod story, he will have to be around a bit more. I'm thinking 10 episodes, maybe more, and a series regular by season 3. 

[Trini]

6 hours ago, Kromm said:

It's not TOO bad. They had the whole problem where it looks bad with briefs, but also has looked bad in a totally different way when they didn't do briefs. 

The problem here is that it looks like a big blue onesie. The belt is trying to create a sense of a dividing line between top and bottom and is just in the wrong place.

<snip>

Somehow Superman needed some division like that.  I know they don't want to do red pants (because they feel mostly blue is the Superman "branding"), but maybe as simple as a slightly darker shade of blue on the bottom would have done it.   ...

Ever since they got rid of the 'shorts' in the comics, that's been my problem: even though it's old-fashioned, or "silly", or "looks like underwear", Superman's costume needs the red shorts because otherwise, he's a big block of blue.

And that "dividing line" is probably an actual dividing line; since this costume is on a TV (CW) budget, it's most likely a separate top and pants and the belt is there to hide that fact and give the illusion of a unitard.

Overall, it looks fine. I'm more worried about the guy in the suit.

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

I'm still not buying for one second that his appearance will be short lived. You don't cast SUPERMAN(!!!) and only use him for 2 episodes. And if they are doing what I think they are doing with the pod story, he will have to be around a bit more. I'm thinking 10 episodes, maybe more, and a series regular by season 3. 

I certainly think he'll be back at key points during the season but they cannot make him a regular.  Supergirl (both the show and character) took it to sometimes ridiculous extremes last season by keeping Superman away during crises that warranted all hands on deck but if Superman keeps showing up then Supergirl is just a sidekick.  It would be like having Batman around in a show about Dick Grayson's initial time as Nightwing. 

I think the costume (and actor) will look better on screen but one thing they nailed was the S symbol.

[Kromm]

11 hours ago, stealinghome said:

And it's annoying that the early marketing of Supergirl S2 seems to be as much about Superman as Supergirl

That's a strong accusation given that we've been outright told he's only in two episodes.

Him appearing at Comic-Con is the only special concession I've seen made to him, and its understandable why with little else ready to reveal at Comic-Con they had him show up.

[Kromm]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

Ever since they got rid of the 'shorts' in the comics, that's been my problem: even though it's old-fashioned, or "silly", or "looks like underwear", Superman's costume needs the red shorts because otherwise, he's a big block of blue.

And that "dividing line" is probably an actual dividing line; since this costume is on a TV (CW) budget, it's most likely a separate top and pants and the belt is there to hide that fact and give the illusion of a unitard.

I don't think it IS an actual physical dividing line. I think it's placed just a tad too high for that. Plus there's no fabric gathering. Unless this is a seriously retouched photo, even if a belt goes around the waist, there's gathering around people's hips if something is two pieces. That really does appear to be all one piece (which wouldn't gather). 

Not that it's likely ever been gone in to, but I imagine the only reason Melissa's top doesn't show any signs of gathering is that it too is actually one piece that wraps around her lower parts underneath that skirt (and then the skirt is placed on top of what's basically akin to a one-piece bathing suit). 

[Trini]

Oh, that promo photo has certainly been re-touched. I still think it's a two-piece; but we'll have to see it in action, or see some behind-the-scenes pics to get a better idea.

[MarkHB]

2 hours ago, Kromm said:

Not that it's likely ever been gone in to, but I imagine the only reason Melissa's top doesn't show any signs of gathering is that it too is actually one piece that wraps around her lower parts underneath that skirt (and then the skirt is placed on top of what's basically akin to a one-piece bathing suit).

There were a few long shots over the course of S1 that showed her skirt flying up (during some fights, particularly), and in some of those you could see that whatever she had on underneath it was blue.  I don't know if she has cheerleader bloomers, but it definitely appeared to me that the top is essentially a leotard over the tights.

[Kromm]

Rich Johnston from Bleeding Cool always has a way of lowering a conversation.  Keep that in mind when you see this:

Superman Has A Super Ass – Thank You Tyler Hoechlin

The reason I point this out in this specific topic has less to do with discussion of Hoechlin's attributes, and more with the actual costume design. You can see one of the issues with the belt is that it's... emphasizing... this. 

A side issue--note the boots have heels. Since Hoechlin is only 6′ 0″ and Superman traditionally is taller than anyone else around him short of a basketball player, I suppose that's why.  But the boots are also contributing to the Kardashian butt effect.

When they have Hoechlin OUT of the suit--particularly up against his Olsen--he looks kinda shrimpy.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Kromm

[Kendra]

There must be some padding in that suit, right? 

[legaleagle53]

Two things I noticed:  No five o'clock shadow or stubble (which the show got right -- thank you!), and yes, he definitely looks too young to be Kara's cousin Kal.  Even though Kara is chronologically 12 years older than Kal is, she's physically 12 years younger than he is.  No way could Tyler pass for 36-37.  He looks about 25 in these pics!

[Trini]

There are A LOT of BTS pics floating around; and I normally try and avoid set pics, but the Superman suit (and actor) looks so much better in those than that first promo pic. So seems like a promo dept./Photoshop FAIL.

In any case, to me, it still looks like the belt is there to hide some construction(?) detail of the costume. It's too bulky if it's just for aesthetics.

And ... can we we get a new shoe designer? I don't hate the open detail on Superman's boots, but I don't really like it either. (I'm also less than enthused about Supergirl's boots and The Flash's shoes.)

Edited August 1, 2016 by Trini

[DollEyes]

Supe's got back!

[Trini]

From a few weeks ago, but here's a look at the set construction from Mehcad's Instagram:

[MarkHB]

I started thinking about the California tax credit denial, the network switch and the move to Vancouver.  Here's what we know from various press accounts:

• Supergirl was denied a California Film & TV Production Tax Credit
• Les Moonves has said that he wants to concentrate on CBS-produced shows on the network, so as to maximize the backend returns from streaming / syndication.
• Obviously, Supergirl moved to the CW and moved production to Vancouver.

I did some digging, and while I didn't get too heavily into the details (since I'm not a California taxpayer), I did find some details on the tax credits:

• They have two credit programs, Program 1.0 and Program 2.0 (Sacramento is apparently too close to Silicon Valley for comfort).
• Program 1.0 is awarded by lottery, Program 2.0 is awarded by a scoring mechanism.
• The list of awardees is here.  It's very interesting to me that not a single Warner Bros. TV show was accepted into Program 2.0.
• It's not a hard-and-fast requirement by the CW that their shows are produced in BC; Crazy Ex-Girlfriend got multiple credits which tells me it was done in Cali. 

I can't say that I can really draw any conclusions from all that, mainly because I don't know where CBS would have stood on the show had it gotten the tax credit.  But I found it interesting (or maybe I just like being nosy).

[Trini]

Interview with Jessie Graff (stunt double) from DC; excerpt related to Supergirl:

Quote

I LOVE working on Supergirl. Melissa is fantastic, and getting to fight her and her stunt double, Shauna Duggins, on a semi-weekly basis has been a dream come true. Shauna has been another one of my role models since I first found out about stunts, and started studying to get into it. I loved getting to fly, thanks to stunt coordinators John Medlen and Merritt Yohnka, and the incredible stunt utility team, headed up by Mark Ginther. Flight is the one superpower I've always dreamed of, so I am eternally grateful to those brilliant guys engineering the rigs and pulling the wires.

[Trini]

Behind-the-scenes video from Kevin Smith's Facebook, about how they do flying scenes with Melissa. He's directing an upcoming episode, but I don't think there is anything that spoils the plot.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Trini

[MarkHB]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

Behind-the-scenes video from Kevin Smith's Facebook, about how they do flying scenes with Melissa. He's directing an upcoming episode, but I don't think there is anything that spoils the plot.

And in the background they're playing "Dare to be Stupid" by Weird Al!  Great video and shrewd way for the full-timers to keep the visiting director (who didn't even seem to be looking at the takes on the monitors, unless he was giving notes that other people spoke out loud on his GoPro) out of the way.

[Trini]

No spoilers, but the cast talks about working with Kevin Smith on an upcoming episode ("Supergirl Lives"):

Quote

Smith brings his unique and fun directing style to the Greg Berlanti’s DCTV universe again this Fall. Last season, he directed The Flash episode, “The Runaway Dinosaur,” and returned to direct next week’s “Killer Frost.” He also recently filmed the Supergirl episode, “Supergirl Lives,” thought it won’t air until January.

Over the last several years, I’ve visited many sets to interview the casts and watch filming, but the experience has never been even close to as lively and festive as the Supergirl was under Smith’s direction. The mood on most sets is serious and quiet … very quiet.

Here, Smith’s demeanor and enthusiasm was felt by everyone working on set. ...

[BkWurm1]

I've never gotten the impression that the set on Supergirl is serious and quiet.  I'm not giving all credit to Smith.  

[Writing Wrongs]

I started re-watching Birds of Prey. Now I know why the alien bar seemed so familiar. They had the meta human bar on BoP not to mention the whole fight club story. 

[Bruinsfan]

Yeah, they did that on Angel too. And the bar aspect on Buffy before it.

[paulvdb]

The demon or alien fight club has been done on so many shows that I can't even remember them all. Angel and Smallville are two that I can remember.

[MarkHB]

So this came out last week...

For those who don't know, Sterling Gates has written a lot of Supergirl comics, including the "Adventures of Supergirl" TV tie-in from earlier this year.

[MarkHB]

Season 3 is a go!

[stealinghome]

Well, that's an unexpected but pleasant surprise!

ETA: to be clear, not unexpected in general--the ratings are strong for the CW--but unexpected in its early nature. I'll take it early though! :)

Edited January 8, 2017 by stealinghome

[MarkHB]

They apparently liked Kevin Smith well enough - and he them - that he's coming back to direct Episode 17.

Also, I saw this, posting just to prove they didn't lose all their budget when they moved to the CW :)

[Trini]

On 1/20/2017 at 8:03 AM, MarkHB said:

They apparently liked Kevin Smith well enough - and he them - that he's coming back to direct Episode 17.

Even if you don't like him, getting KS to direct is still a good thing since he has a following with the target audience, and promotes stuff for free.

--------

Behind-the-scenes photo from Smith: (under spoiler because episode hasn't aired yet)

Spoiler

 

[Trini]

Just in case some of you don't go to the Arrow forum for Supergirl news:

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

One of you (I'm sorry, I forget who) really pays close attention to the Arrowverse sets, so this interview with Tyler Harron, Supergirl/Flash production designer, is for you...

How Set Design Shapes CW's Supergirl
Kayti Burt   Jan. 27, 2017
http://www.denofgeek.com/us/tv/supergirl/261802/how-set-design-shapes-cws-supergirl 

[Trini]

Another reason I'm not thrilled with James' Guardian arc: with Guardian's costume, Mehcad gets even less screentime because of stuntmen also doing action scenes;

Edited January 30, 2017 by Trini

[Trini]

I'd forgotten Kevin Smith was doing another episode. This is from almost a week ago; *spoiler-ish*:

 

[Trini]

[GHScorpiosRule]

This isn't a production thing, per se, but I just noticed something about Kara's suit that bugs me to no end-that she's got a strip of it, attached diagonally from her wrist, looped over her thumb. It looks STOOPID and gives the impression that it needs to be that way otherwise her sleeves would fall off????

[kalamac]

I have always assumed that was to stop them riding up while she fights.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, kalamac said:

I have always assumed that was to stop them riding up while she fights.

If that's the case, the costume designer people should do a better job to make sure it doesn't. Plus, I didn't Supes having the same...design. But then again, those straps pretty much blinded me to anything else in his costume.

[Trini]

BTW, Mr. Mxyzptlk wasn't lying about the gown he put Kara in; it's a Vera Wang, but from the David's Bridal line.

[MarkHB]

I suppose it would be hypocritical to worry and fret over potential budget restrictions resulting from the moves to the CW and YVR, but then complain that the costumers shopped mass-market Vera Wang instead of going to Rodeo Drive for an original :D

[stealinghome]

Hee! It looked amazing on Melissa Benoist, though, I must say. The costuming on this show is generally really on point.

[Trini]

VFX reel for Supergirl, mostly from the "Parasite" episode:

[Trini]

I was about to ask why does Harewood need a mold of his head, but then I remembered he also plays Cyborg 'Superman'.

[Trini]

Crew shirts, and K. Smith gushing:

 

[johnar]

Production included in this topic?

Is strict commentary about Production included in this topic?

If so, I believe SUPERGIRL should have remained on CBS. And the single most reason it did not produce sustained ratings high enough to remain on CBS for season 2 was the potential diehard fan base was not marketed aggressively enough. 

Previous versions of Supergirl were contradictory, lackluster, stereotypical. Beach bunnies with superpowers. Super Baywatch Girl. That sort of thing. 

And while I am not averse to sex being part of stories, insulting (to women and to men with a bit of class about them) sex is, well, insulting.  So there is IMHO a huge potential audience for SUPERGIRL that has to get past their indifference for the character (based on the old versions). And for all the millions CBS spent on using the name "supergirl" it did not market the show aggressively enough to pierce that wall of indifference.

I know. I was one of them.

In February 2016 I got wind of the $70M CBS President Leslie Moonves spent on the project. And this after CW President Mark Pedowitz turned the project down in 2014. THIS I hadda see for myself !  So I found a streaming video site loaded with all the shows in the can to date, tuned in the pilot, fully expecting NOT to make it through a single episode, and I was BLOWN AWAY! I had a 16 hour work day the next day but I stayed up until past 3 AM binge watching episode after episode!

I've been hooked ever since.

Even through what I believe is a disappointing second season.

Heading off any accusations of being anti-shipping or homophobic, I am not either.

I personally believe the Sanvers ship should have been done in at least one later season (giving Alex the opportunity to become Bat Woman / Batgirl in the meantime).  It would have fit with the DC COMICS universe and given the audience a better means of easing into the subject. Gays have been on TV for decades. And several LGBT sites have been critical of the way the CW rammed Sanvers down the throats of audiences as anti-productive to the LGBT cause.

If, through a series of unfortunate events, Alex wins the audience over to her plight and her sexuality is discovered in the process, the audience would have been rather brought along for the ride / venture into her coming out. Sympathetic understanding at the very least and a resounding RIGHT ON! by most.

Just wanted to settle that matter up front.

I know it is a very sore spot for many from all the injustices and extremely poor treatment of people who were only trying to be themselves. I know it sounds like I am patronizing, but I have several gay / bi friends. Tried it myself as a teen but it didn't "take."

So if I offend any I am guessing it is only those who are looking to be offended. And even to them I only offer love and understanding.

(continued)

Edited September 9, 2017 by johnar

[johnar]

Cont'd

I believe season 2 also shied away from a huge part of the magic that made season 1 such a smash hit (the family of friends and supporters).

SUPERGIRL'S support group was as much the focus as she was.

AND... the title role / main character herself was not the center of attention either in the first dozen or so episodes. She was treated almost like a background character. 

I M H  O ← 'nuff said?

Pedowitz was handed (in his view) a money pit he didn't want in the first place. Moonves was faced with renew for season 2 (on CBS) and hope for the best OR pull the plug and cancel the show. His gut and the write in campaign to renew SUPERGIRL led him to the third alternative: place it in Pedowitz's lap reminding him he work for CBS (ultimately) and hoping for the best.

Trouble is, that would be pretty much like Prince Charming sending Cinderella back to the stepmother's house and hoping for the best.

Setting aside personal feelings...

From a business perspective, Pedowitz is faced with a money pit (it did cost CBS a bundle) that did not reach fans enough to pay for itself. 

The CW is owned partly by CBS but does not have (regular) access to CBS funds. It's budget is much smaller, and most CW shows piggyback on other cable networks.

So Pedowitz had to either reinvent SUPERGIRL to get fans and make money...

or,

Sabotage / sandbag it to get it cancelled and off budget as soon as possible.

[johnar]

Conclusion (sorry for being so long winded).

Fingers were crossed at the end of season 1 in hopes there would be a season 2. The verdict was renewal and the partying began... but once the rest of the story was clear (that it would be shipped to the CW), it got quiet. Oh there was the typical rhetoric about how this was the best thing since sliced bread for the show and so on, but Flockhart (who was the first to shout "sign me up" ) was very silent. The cover story was that she did not want to move to Vancouver and would not be in season 2, "but we are happy to have her on the show in any capacity we can" ← was the official and verbatim reply for months. Such pat answers are often used to mask firings or ugly behind the scenes situations that the studio handles (like the firing of the original Captain Janeway on Star Trek Voyager; Kate Mulgrew was not the first).

Carnal Rule # 1 was broken in the actual casting of the cousin Superman role.

Season 1 repeatedly made the point that this was SUPERGIRL'S story. And Superman was a phantom character who was never actually cast or seen directly. Kind of like the old Maris Crane role on the TV show Frasier. You heard a lot about her but she was never cast or seen. 

Benoist could not hide the tension felt at the 2016 COMICON between herself and Tyler Hoechlin (cast as Superman for season 2) AND Producer Sarah Schechter (who horned in to answer why the Superman role was actually cast). Check out the Youtube vids for yourself. See also the M TV interview done that week. Brick wall between Benoist and Hoechlin. 

The whole thing plus the near-shelving of Benoist's (title) character smells of Studio discipline for an actor who dared challenge the  direction the bosses were running the show into.

Speculation on my part. If true, hooray for Benoist for standing up for SUPERGIRL.

Secondly, Benoist was really enthusiastic about the show in season 1 and the upcoming season 2 until about mid May 2016. 

After that, she seemed sad, withdrawn, letting things (like her appearance) go.

The evidence that she and husband Blake were going through personal problems was too hard to hide. They eventually divorced after (I'm guessing) a period of trying to make things work. 

About the time the divorce was filed for was when fans got their SUPERGIRL back (in Benoist, anyway).

Thirdly, Hollywood has been trending the last several decades of championing personally held beliefs. Old Hollywood did everything it could to keep such knowledge out of the public eye and ear. In those days no one truly wanted to know what Cary Grant felt politically (for example). The studio bosses were wise. This is the only way to keep from offending somebody. Audiences tune in to escape reality for a few minutes or hours. Benoist for the most part played along with the magnanimous actress bit until the women's march where she held up a very explicit sign and directly included an aspect of the SUPERGIRL character in it.  In many companies this would have gotten them fired on the spot and certainly in old Hollywood.

The point being, every time SUPERGIRL (production and cast) stopped doing things detrimental to the success of the show, something else said or done reattached them to that sinking anchor. Season 2 did a 180 for the DEO's antagonism for aliens. They became champions FOR aliens. As did the show in a political statement for illegal aliens. But the aliens production and cast did NOT take into consideration is the audience they were alienating.

Ratings continue to plummet

 

I have tried and tried to pitch Moonves, Pedowitz, Berlanti (and the rest of the showrunners) on ideas that would save SUPERGIRL from this downward trend (despite appearances of a season 3, it is diminishing returns), but they all resist consideration. SUPERGIRL IMHO won't last season 3. And that saddens me because it HAD ←(past tense) the potential of being another Star Trek (in cultural iconic phenomenon) with at least 5 seasons on TV and 3 feature films and as many as 7 spin-off series. 

BATGIRL (Bat Woman)

MARTIAN MANHUNTER

DEO

CADMUS

SON OF SUPERMAN (DAUGHTER as well, Clark and Lana had twins see Smallville 707)

LONE WOLF (James rather than Guardian)

to mention just a few.

IF they had been open to this and the plethora of ideas all getting back to season 1 basics, CBS would have recouped its $70M investment many times over an the descendant stock holders of the name "Supergirl" who lost their shirts in the 1984 film would be well compensated and the name would be freed up for future expansion that is beyond my creative capabilities.

Edited September 9, 2017 by johnar

[MarkHB]

I'm happy to discuss nuts and bolts, with the caveat that everything I know about the subject I learned online; I live at the farthest corner of the country from LA.  Having said that, I'm optimistic that we'll see at least S4 for the following reasons:

• The CW just doesn't do mid-season cancellations; unlike the larger networks, they don't have a stockpile of other stuff they can put on in place of their existing lineup.  She'll finish S3.
• Season 3 will leave Supergirl in range of 80+ episodes within Season 4, which is the target for being able to go to syndication.  So the ROI of producing S4 is very, very high relative to S1-3.
• The CW's financials are weird; many people believe that they make much more money on the backend via the Netflix deal, etc. than they do off of original broadcast.  I'd hate to be a standalone owner of a CW affiliate, but it seems to be working out from the top-level view.
• Supergirl is one of the CW's strongest performers; their ratings look low compared to S1, but CW works in a much smaller pond.  Her season average 18-49 last year was second only to The Flash.

All of those lead me to believe that the show will continue through at least Spring 2019 on The CW.  I'm not saying it will stop there, but just that I think it will at least get that far.

Regarding Batgirl,

Having said that, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion of what went on BTS with Calista.

[The Crazed Spruce]

And I'm on the opposite corner of the continent from Hollywood, but I'm optimistic too, mainly for the same reasons that @MarkHB gave, but also because the majority of The CW's shows (including Supergirl and the rest of the Berlantiverse) are network-owned, so keeping a low-rated show with an ardent fanbase or critical buzz is less of a risk to them. (Why do you think Jane the Virgin and Crazy Ex Girlfriend are still on the air? Both low-rated, but both with a solid fanbase.)

And, as for Alex becoming Batgirl, there are a number of reasons why that's never gonna happen, not the least of which is that they'd probably need to introduce Batman first, and there's no way in hell that's gonna happen while Gotham is still in production. Besides, Alex is already a gun-toting, leather-clad bundle of awesome. Why does she need to be a superhero?

[stealinghome]

Supergirl will definitely get a S4, for sure. Past that, it will all depend on the show's profitability+where the CW goes with the larger Berlanti-verse. Personally, I'm guessing the show will last 5-7 seasons. Yes, the ratings definitely DID slide at the end of last season. However, given what I'm guessing the back-end money the WB makes off the show (via streaming, merchandise, etc) looks like, I am thinking that the show would have to get truly HORRENDOUS ratings to not be profitable for the WB. Or at least to be less profitable than whatever they'd replace it with would be.

Now, the sliding ratings are interesting as an index of fan (dis)satisfaction with the show, and could affect the show moving forward by in part dictating the size of the budget. But the CW basically seems to not give two shits about ratings anymore, so even if the ratings continue to slide, I think we'll see the show on the CW for several years yet.

[MarkHB]

I never completed my thought about Batgirl, but it's basically what @The Crazed Spruce said: I think the rights to Bat-anything are tied up in Gotham. Plus, Alex is effectively Kara's Batgirl already, without any costume.

[johnar]

38 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

I never completed my thought about Batgirl, but it's basically what @The Crazed Spruce said: I think the rights to Bat-anything are tied up in Gotham. Plus, Alex is effectively Kara's Batgirl already, without any costume.

The idea was actually Chyler's and Melissa's (according to Melissa on a email in Q&A podcast last year). I only had the plan for how Alex Danvers could become Barbara Gordon and still remain Alex Danvers. 

[johnar]

8 hours ago, MarkHB said:

I'm happy to discuss nuts and bolts, with the caveat that everything I know about the subject I learned online; I live at the farthest corner of the country from LA.  Having said that, I'm optimistic that we'll see at least S4 for the following reasons:

• The CW just doesn't do mid-season cancellations; unlike the larger networks, they don't have a stockpile of other stuff they can put on in place of their existing lineup.  She'll finish S3.
• Season 3 will leave Supergirl in range of 80+ episodes within Season 4, which is the target for being able to go to syndication.  So the ROI of producing S4 is very, very high relative to S1-3.
• The CW's financials are weird; many people believe that they make much more money on the backend via the Netflix deal, etc. than they do off of original broadcast.  I'd hate to be a standalone owner of a CW affiliate, but it seems to be working out from the top-level view.
• Supergirl is one of the CW's strongest performers; their ratings look low compared to S1, but CW works in a much smaller pond.  Her season average 18-49 last year was second only to The Flash.

All of those lead me to believe that the show will continue through at least Spring 2019 on The CW.  I'm not saying it will stop there, but just that I think it will at least get that far.

Regarding Batgirl,

Having said that, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion of what went on BTS with Calista.

The CW is also a Phantom Network piggybacking on other Cable Networks.

Diminishing returns are diminishing returns ($$$) no matter how you 'splain it.

The fact that it is second only to the Flash says more about the network's troubles than the show's success (and the lack of new blood on the CW). 

The fan base is not as on board with SUPERGIRL as some seem to believe. Found this on the web just today:

Over something funny Jeremy tried to say about a "ship" between Kara and Lena. He apologized profusely (and had Twitter not removed the hate tweets he was getting he'd probably be off of Twitter). It was very bad. The rest of the cast chuckled at his funny and so now they too are on the extreme LGBT's shit list. This after not only the coming out of Alex Danver's (which alienated those who opposed it) but also Jeremy's personal devotion to LGBT (as he proved stepping up for the freeing of his gay cousin from a pray away the gay kidnapping of her in 2016).

Edited September 10, 2017 by johnar

[johnar]

They further alienated the parent audience who found the more explicit rendition of Kara x ray peeping on a broom closet rendezvous (season 1 inset on more explicit season 2 rendezvous):

Struggling to survive shows who piss off their LGBT fans, alienate the parents of small children (fan base), this is not to mention many others I've encountered who agree season 2 was no season 1...

This equals a complete season 3 and 4?

PLEASE REREAD my post above. I WANT the show to succeed.

Unless I am completely wrong about everything I brought to the table. I fear the powers that be are more willing to drive the show right into the ground than to try anyone else's ideas (that just MIGHT work).

{sigh}

Edited September 10, 2017 by johnar