Season 9: Spoilers, Speculation and All Discussion In-between

[Llywela]

Not sure if the video game is "canon" but in The Eternity Clock video game River's diary entries reveal that she has gone back in time to meet doctors 1-9 and then wiped their memories so they wouldn't remember it.  

 

Also, Moffat has written in some of the script notes (I believe it was the script notes) that the Picnic in Asgard was with Doctor 10.

 

Just a little bit of info to stick out there.  This could conceivably take place while she is doing all that- which would roughly put it during the time she is having adventures with 11 and before The Library.   

Well, yes, any meeting River has with the Twelfth Doctor has to take place somewhere between the time she first met Smith's Doctor and the time she first met Tennant's Doctor - and since we've not followed her that closely, there's plenty of room in her personal timeline for it.

 

Personally, I wouldn't take a video game as canon - and am glad to say that, since the idea of River wiping the Doctor's memory over and over is repugnant to me.

[Ringthane]

Especially since Eight lost his memories (I believe) twice - once in the BBC books for sure.  It just takes so much away from the character.

 

I wonder when we'll get a producer that actually lets the hero of the show be, you know...  The hero.

[darkestboy]

The show does let the Doctor be the hero.

 

Yes, the companion has a more prominent role but that's modern television for you.

 

There does seem to be some hints online that River might not be the only returning element of the Christmas special though.

[call me ishmael]

The show does let the Doctor be the hero.

 

Yes, the companion has a more prominent role but that's modern television for you.

 

Yes, the real difference is that the remake is much more emotional, but that is contemporary television (and culture) for you. I don't ever recall that much of an effort to make us really see through the eyes of a companion in Classic Who except maybe with Sarah Jane.

[Llywela]

Yes, the real difference is that the remake is much more emotional, but that is contemporary television (and culture) for you. I don't ever recall that much of an effort to make us really see through the eyes of a companion in Classic Who except maybe with Sarah Jane.

Sarah Jane really wasn't so different from any other companion in the Classic Era - we don't see through her eyes any more than any other companion, really, but  over the years there were more instances of doing so than most people give the show credit. The bigger difference is that in the Classic Era we were just watching the companions have adventures, whereas the Modern Era we watch the companions having adventures while also experiencing an emotional 'journey'. Classic adventures just happened one after another. Modern adventures are built up into a larger ongoing story, pre-determined arcs, and those arcs tend to be tied intimately to the companions and their lives, in order to facilitate those emotional journeys. It's mostly just a very different narrative approach.

 

If you don't believe we ever saw through the eyes of any classic companion other than Sarah Jane, you want to watch the very earliest adventures of Ian and Barbara, in order, focusing on them. The early show was very much told through their eyes as they were abducted from their lives and taken on this incredible journey. It was only later that the Doctor became the central focus of the show. Initially he was the catalyst of the story, rather than its hero.

[call me ishmael]

Sarah Jane really wasn't so different from any other companion in the Classic Era - we don't see through her eyes any more than any other companion, really, but  over the years there were more instances of doing so than most people give the show credit. The bigger difference is that in the Classic Era we were just watching the companions have adventures, whereas the Modern Era we watch the companions having adventures while also experiencing an emotional 'journey'. Classic adventures just happened one after another. Modern adventures are built up into a larger ongoing story, pre-determined arcs, and those arcs tend to be tied intimately to the companions and their lives, in order to facilitate those emotional journeys. It's mostly just a very different narrative approach.

 

If you don't believe we ever saw through the eyes of any classic companion other than Sarah Jane, you want to watch the very earliest adventures of Ian and Barbara, in order, focusing on them. The early show was very much told through their eyes as they were abducted from their lives and taken on this incredible journey. It was only later that the Doctor became the central focus of the show. Initially he was the catalyst of the story, rather than its hero.

I did think about them. But i think that your description explains why they aren't the same sort of roles as the modern companions. Neither Ian or Barbara as i recall ever cathected emotionally on the Doctor. And later it was hard to have Leela or Romana could stand in for the viewer's emotional ties. That need to have that emotional bond is later.

[Llywela]

I did think about them. But i think that your description explains why they aren't the same sort of roles as the modern companions. Neither Ian or Barbara as i recall ever cathected emotionally on the Doctor. And later it was hard to have Leela or Romana could stand in for the viewer's emotional ties. That need to have that emotional bond is later.

Well, sort of. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by 'cathected'? Hang on, I'll look it up. Hmm. An intense emotional investment. No, Ian and Barbara didn't have that with the Doctor - nor did they need to have that. They had a very different relationship with him from modern companions, but it was nonetheless an interesting and dynamic relationship that went through great change and periods of emotional volatility. Their primary relationship was always with each other, but they went through tremendous ups and downs with the Doctor nonetheless - he abducted them, they went through their early adventures at loggerheads with him, afraid of him, then gradually formed a very close friendship while always longing to return home. They were completely dependent on him, in many ways. If you watch their era through in order, the development of their relationship with the Doctor is fascinating to watch, functions extremely well as a proto-arc - and doesn't need any 'cathexis' to lend it greater depth. One thing I've grown to dislike about modern Doctor Who is the way it presents the Doctor's relationship with his various companions as exclusive, all-consuming and unhealthily co-dependent. There's such a tremendous variety of relationships and interpersonal dynamics out there, and a relationship doesn't have to be exclusive and intense to be meaningful.

 

Most classic companions had an emotional bond with the Doctor - some more than others, and it's hard to generalise about the entire 26 years of the classic era because there was so much variation through those years. But that emotional bond was never the focus the way it is today - it was a by-product, rather than the point, so to speak. It's a difference of emphasis. For the most part, in the classic era, the emotional bond was usually there (watch the First Doctor's scenes with Vicki, the Third Doctor with Jo, the Seventh with Ace, etc), but it was rarely front and centre of any story, so we only caught glimpses of it in passing, as both the story and the characters were always focused on the wider adventure. What new Who did was turn that dynamic on its head, with the emotional bond and the character development up front and centre, and planned out in advance in a way that never happened in the classic era, where characters and their development were handled in the main on an ad hoc basis as they went along.

 

So no, characters like Leela and Romana rarely stand in for the viewer's emotional ties to the Doctor because that wasn't what they were there for, and their adventures weren't structured in that way. So we shouldn't hold them up against Rose's relationship with the Doctor, because that was deliberately designed in a very different way for a different purpose, because television has changed and so has the viewers' relationship with it. We can't hold the television of the past up to standards it was never designed to meet (just as we can't hold today's television up against the standards of 2050), we can only measure it against what it was trying to achieve on its own terms.

 

Personally, I'd rather see something somewhere in the middle. Classic Who did too little with the characters and relationships, but New Who often compensates too far in the other direction. More of a median line would be good, but will never happen!

Edited September 5, 2015 by Llywela

[call me ishmael]

So no, characters like Leela and Romana rarely stand in for the viewer's emotional ties to the Doctor because that wasn't what they were there for, and their adventures weren't structured in that way. So we shouldn't hold them up against Rose's relationship with the Doctor, because that was deliberately designed in a very different way for a different purpose, because television has changed and so has the viewers' relationship with it. We can't hold the television of the past up to standards it was never designed to meet (just as we can't hold today's television up against the standards of 2050), we can only measure it against what it was trying to achieve on its own terms.

 

I thought that this was my point.  I certainly wasn't criticizing Classic Who.  I was just noting one reason for the difference which--especially in the case of Clara--seems to bother a lot of people.

 

Personally, I'd rather see something somewhere in the middle. Classic Who did too little with the characters and relationships, but New Who often compensates too far in the other direction. More of a median line would be good, but will never happen!

 

So say we all.

[Locutus]

How could it NOT be the first meeting. She regenerated into River in front of Smith. I'm sure the Capaldi-River meeting won't make a lot of sense, but it is WHO after all.

[darkestboy]

If I were guessing here (and this is a guess and not an actual spoiler), then for River, I'm going to assume her meeting with Twelve is after the events of The Angels Take Manhattan but before Silence In The Library/Forest Of The Dead or even between The Wedding Of River Song and The Angels Take Manhattan. Basically, I don't think it'll be the data ghost version we saw in The Name Of The Doctor but I'm only guessing here.

[darkestboy]

Prologue for The Magician's Apprentice featuring the Doctor and a very familiar face and planet ....

 

http://www.doctorwhonews.net/2015/09/the-magicians-apprentice-prologue-110915124915.html

[BizBuzz]

Prologue for The Magician's Apprentice featuring the Doctor and a very familiar face and planet ....

 

http://www.doctorwhonews.net/2015/09/the-magicians-apprentice-prologue-110915124915.html

 

Ok, that was all kinds of cool.

 

Thanks for posting that.

[Kromm]

Okay, "The Planet Karn" title card gives me unpleasant memory of "The Planet Zeist" titlecard.

 

When will Sci-Fi writers learn that you have to be really careful with Planet names!

[HauntedBathroom]

Well, if he's visiting the Sisterhood of Karn, the Doctor does need to go to Karn.

[Llywela]

Well, if he's visiting the Sisterhood of Karn, the Doctor does need to go to Karn.

Quite - and that planet was named way back in the mid-70s when the 4th Doctor and Sarah visited, many years before The Planet Zeist became a thing!

[elle]

Okay, "The Planet Karn" title card gives me unpleasant memory of "The Planet Zeist" titlecard.

 

When will Sci-Fi writers learn that you have to be really careful with Planet names!

For reasons unknown, when I watched the clip all I saw was the title "PLANET".  I just ran it again and all I can see is "PLANET".  Now I know my eyes can play tricks on me, but really!

[Ringthane]

For reasons unknown, when I watched the clip all I saw was the title "PLANET".  I just ran it again and all I can see is "PLANET".  Now I know my eyes can play tricks on me, but really!

 

When I play it, it says "The Planet Karn" in big letters in the bottom right corner. 

 

Which brings up a question - if the Sisterhood is so knowledgeable about Gallifrey that they can offer elixirs to save a Time Lord's life or allow them the power to choose their next body or whatever, do they know where Gallifrey might be now (or at least have some sense about where it might be)?  I don't remember if they said in "The Brain of Morbius" why they were so close with the Time Lords, but maybe they could feel something or something...  Dunno.

[benteen]

Karn is either in the same solar system or sector as Gallifrey.  The Kasterborous system or sector.

[call me ishmael]

Or at least where Gallifrey used to be...

[Ringthane]

That's what I mean - they obviously have a connection to Gallifrey beyond just being neighboring planets.  I'd be willing to bet they might have a better idea of where it is or where to look than most beings would. 

[cardigirl]

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-09-14/steven-moffats-exclusive-doctor-who-series-nine-episode-guide

 

Not sure what all of this means.  Can't watch the videos, but it seems like a pretty dark year.

[SnideAsides]

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it's worth noting they've teased "One of these three characters will die!" as being in the episode right before the Doctor-only episode. Given one of those three is the Doctor himself, that leaves us with a 50/50 chance of Clara dying.

[darkestboy]

I say Clara's dead by the finale.

 

The BBC are more or less alluding to the character not making it out of the upcoming series alive.

[Llywela]

I really don't want Clara to die. I'm beyond fed up of the New Who motif of the Doctor always destroying (or feeling as if he's destroyed) the lives of his companions, one way or another. I want Clara to just grow out of him and move on to the next stage of her life, leaving him to move on to the next stage of his.

[Ringthane]

Come on, it's Moffatt.  Even if Clara dies, she won't stay dead.  Nobody ever stays dead when Moffatt's around.

[benteen]

While I'm not the biggest Clara fan, I don't want the character to die.  It's okay for the companion to simply move on with their lives.  I understand and approve of giving the companions more of a storyline than in the original series but at the same time, it's OKAY for them to simply move on with their lives, their time spent with the Doctor improving them (and him) for the better.  That's how it used to be.  The Doctor can move on by getting a new companion, just like it used to be.

 

The 12 and Clara relationship has already been toxic with the way they've treated each other and lied to one another.  No need to make it utterly tragic at the same time.

 

The Doctor's confession seems to be the overriding storyline this season.

[Llywela]

While I'm not the biggest Clara fan, I don't want the character to die.  It's okay for the companion to simply move on with their lives.  I understand and approve of giving the companions more of a storyline than in the original series but at the same time, it's OKAY for them to simply move on with their lives, their time spent with the Doctor improving them (and him) for the better.  That's how it used to be.  The Doctor can move on by getting a new companion, just like it used to be.

I sometimes think modern television - and I'm talking in broader terms than just Doctor Who now - has forgotten that giving characters storylines does not have to mean tragedy. There are so many meaningful stories to be told that aren't tragic. Overdo the angst and it simply loses all meaning - I'm afraid Who is already way past that point for me. I stopped buying into it a long time ago. I need something different, something less overwrought. I would buy into that.

 

I would love to see a return to a more uplifting Doctor Who. Speckle a bit of angst in here and there, by all means, but make it the exception rather than the rule. It would have so much more meaning and impact that way.

Come on, it's Moffatt.  Even if Clara dies, she won't stay dead.  Nobody ever stays dead when Moffatt's around.

That's because he wants to have his cake and eat it too.

[call me ishmael]

One of the problems that Moffatt has with Clara is that he has already shown her end hasn't she? Unless they retcon that the Dalek Clara was simply a descendant she needs to end up on that ship at some point.

[Llywela]

One of the problems that Moffatt has with Clara is that he has already shown her end hasn't she? Unless they retcon that the Dalek Clara was simply a descendant she needs to end up on that ship at some point.

No, the Dalek Clara wasn't the end of this Clara - she wasn't called Clara at all, she was Oswin, one of the many Clara splinters out there in the universe. She came from this Clara, but was a different person living a different life in a completely different time period. So this Clara, who is the original, won't end up on that ship and won't become Dalek Oswin.

[darkestboy]

Jenna has been cast in an eight part mini series on Queen Victoria for ITV ....

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-34266847

 

It hasn't been confirmed properly yet, but I say she's definitely leaving at the end of Series 9, hence River being in the Christmas special.

[Daisy]

If  Clara is over at the end  of this series, I really wish they had stuck with  their guns and given her the  old Wendy storyline.                                                                                                                                                                                                              

[Dust Bunny]

Yay!!!

 

Clara should be done at the end of Season 8; it would have been a much stronger exit. As it is, I'll have to roll my eyes this entire season, whenever she's onscreen. But at least I'll know it's coming to an end.

[Lokiberry]

It's great that Clara is finally leaving, but how much time does Peter Capaldi have left as the Doctor? My understanding is that 2016 will consist of a few specials, much like 2008. Will he still be there in 2017, or is this leading up to a regeneration? I'd hate for Clara to be the only companion he gets.

[cardigirl]

I'll miss Clara, I've like her storyline and thought she did a terrific job last season.  I look forward to new companions, though, and reading all about their shortcomings as well.  

[benteen]

Capaldi's a major fan of Who so I wonder if he'll stick around just a little longer than usual.  I'm not talking about Tom Baker 7 years but I think at least 4 total. 

[darkestboy]

Officially confirmed ....

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/doctorwho/entries/2a2689a8-5c52-46af-8e69-2fad42c46da3

[Morrigan2575]

Yay! Happy Dance. I can start watching again.

She doesn't need to die she just needs to leave. Although, if she does die, I'm sure it will be in the most super special snowflakey heroic way fashionable.

[elle]

"The Doctor's Meditation" - First of all, Hey! wasn't that "Amy's Theme" playing just there at the end?

 

Secondly, can we see the rest of the story he tells Bors, just him telling Bors?

[cardigirl]

Ooooh, I really liked the Doctor's Meditation....

[alrightokay]

I liked "The Doctor's Meditation," too.  Bors would make a great companion: supportive, inquisitive, open-minded.  I'd love for Twelve to have a male companion after Clara and create a new dynamic in the TARDIS.

[cardigirl]

And yes, I think it was Amy's theme, so wonder what that means...

[Lokiberry]

Where can I find The Doctor's Meditation? It isn't on youtube.

[cardigirl]

It was shown on BBC America tonight. It might be shown again during the runup to the new episode at 9pm Saturday. It's about 6 minutes long.

[benteen]

I like Bors too.  I hope he reappears.

[Lokiberry]

It was shown on BBC America tonight. It might be shown again during the runup to the new episode at 9pm Saturday. It's about 6 minutes long.

Thanks! Maybe it will pop up somewhere on line.

 

ETA: I just saw it! (thanks Llywela for pointing me in the right direction)

 

I liked "The Doctor's Meditation," too.  Bors would make a great companion: supportive, inquisitive, open-minded.  I'd love for Twelve to have a male companion after Clara and create a new dynamic in the TARDIS.

I would also like to see another male companion. They've been pretty rare since the 60's; and there hasn't been one presented as the Doctor's primary companion since good old Jamie got forcibly tossed off the TARDIS and memory-wiped by the Time Lords (unless we're counting the 30 seconds Adric was Four's sole companion before Nyssa and Tegan showed up).

 

It would be an interesting dynamic, and since they aren't presenting the companions as potential girlfriends with Twelve, maybe it's a possibilty. I would want him to be the one closest to the Doctor, even if there was a female companion too. I mean, I loved Rory to death, but Eleven was all about Amy. I'd like to see that situation reversed.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Lokiberry

[alrightokay]

Well, just watched "The Magician's Apprentice"... there goes the hope that Bors could be a companion! 

[elle]

Well, just watched "The Magician's Apprentice"... there goes the hope that Bors could be a companion! 

I'd like to think that 12 is recounting this upcoming season to Bors, but that is just silly (to hope that is!)

[tarotx]

I think TMA might be entirely erased except for the doctor knowing so Bors might still have a chance?

[call me ishmael]

Doesn't this all depend on how the Doctor gets out of this mess? It will change whether Bors got dalecked.

[Kromm]

I suppose so, but I think a lot of what we just saw may be something of an illusion, rather than simply being undone.

Clara and Missy being killed, and unkilled is too inelegant. It's more likely they never actually died.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Kromm