S02.E20: Scars

[Boundary]

Hey, nobody is arguing that, I think :) I've already said that overall, I think it's an ambiguous situation, true to real life. I just feel like it's wrong to say that SHIELD is evil due to the index system (which does make a kind of sense) and the Inhumans are innocent and good.

 

In Winter Soldier, regular SHIELD agents, Fury and nonHYDRA World Council members all signed up to Project Insight thinking that monitoring and preventing crime before it was committed was the aim. Of course, HYDRA had already hijacked that program. So the very existence of things like Project Insight, or the Index, doesn't make SHIELD evil but it sure is the weak link that allows others with nefarious intentions to take advantage. Look at Coulson's role in this episode, his desire to keep SHIELD united allowed Gonzalez to take over the mission.

[FurryFury]

So what? Gonzalez did nothing wrong. In fact, he has proved to be much more reasonable than we had been led to expect. If Coulson had done it, he may have been dead himself (or not, considering he has Kree blood. Anyway, the point is it was Jiaying who led the aggression, not Gonzalez).

Edited May 8, 2015 by FurryFury

[Boundary]

As mentioned already in this thread, 3 quinjets full of armed agents, arriving with only 1 day's notice and without being invited, constitutes aggression. Given Jiaying history with HYDRA, same HYDRA that had been lurking within SHIELD until recently, she reacted. Could she have delayed her own act of aggression? Sure but she would have lost advantage with time. 

[FurryFury]

Well, I guess we should just agree to disagree. I think the show tells us that both sides have their faults, and this time, it was Jiaying who started the conflict without any obvious provocation.

[Sakura12]

Actually Shield could've left them alone, like they wanted. They are the ones that started it by needing to put them on a list. A rogue few did something years ago. Since then the Inhumans have been peacefully co-existing with the humans. 

 

I also think changing the plan at the last minute is a big no, no for first time negotiations. They were expecting Coulson a man that Skye vouched for and Gonzales showed up, the one that sent people to kill Skye. That sent alarm bells off in Jiaying's mind. Did she overreact, yes. But Shield shouldn't have done that either. Everyone handled that the wrong way. 

 

We don't know if she would've done the same thing to Coulson. We can't judge her without seeing it. I also think Gonzales comparing his injury to hers pissed her off. I could also go with the show Forever, that immortals live so long that they start to crazy with all the atrocities they've witnessed in their long life. One act reminds them of all the others and they get angry.

 

Although this show is doing a good job setting up the Civil War storyline, we are already choosing sides. Lol.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Sakura12

[kennyab]

Actually Shield could've left them alone, like they wanted. They are the ones that started it by needing to put them on a list. A rogue few did something years ago. Since then the Inhumans have been peacefully co-existing with the humans.

 

Again, though, this was prompted by Gordon teleporting into a secure SHIELD facility with Raina, a known enemy. I'm against mandatory indexing, but that was enough provocation for SHIELD to insist on meeting with the Inhumans. Skye couldn't explain why they were there, so SHIELD had a right to try to get answers about that. I agree that they handled it wrong after that, but it would have been irresponsible of them not to follow up on that trespassing.

[xqueenfrostine]

SHIELD showed up in Bahrain and escalated the situation that's why people died. We saw that Jiaying was there to handle them she may have been able to prevent those people from dying.

 

 By the time SHIELD showed up, the situation had already been escalated.  Eva and Katya had already had a run in with the Russian authorities who were still pursuing them, which is part of the reason SHIELD showed when they did.  Given the nature of Katya's powers, do you honestly believe she wasn't already hurting and killing people?  Katya and Eva were been "protected" by a gang in Bahrain, but it's almost certain that their protection wasn't consensual. Eva herself was being controlled by her daughter, so it's not like Gordon and Jiaying would have been safe from her.  If Katya and Eva had decided not to go home without a fight, people would have died whether it was Jiaying or Melinda in that warehouse.  The only likely difference is that SHIELD agents wouldn't have been among the bodies.

[mac123x]

Of course, the big problem is that the Inhumans were self-policing in order to avoid discovery.  Now that they've been discovered, things are different.  But I do think there's room for SHIELD to have a conversation with powered people, instead of trying to dictate terms.  Not "you're a problem and here's how we're going to solve it" but "here are our concerns, what are your concerns, how do we address them."  Treat them like foreign countries with sovereignty rather than subject nations, as it were.

 

You beat me to it!  This isn't SHIELD putting a known or suspected individual 804 on the index; it's a First Contact situation.  Sure, SHIELD has run into Inhumans before, not even knowing what they were, but this was really the first meeting between pseudo-heads-of-state.  It should have started with a simple "hi, nice to meet you, how are you, lets get to know each other."  Gonzalez could have shared his concerns, Jaiying could share her concerns, and they could discuss ways to reach some common ground.

 

Instead,despite his pleasant demeanor and his peace offering, Gonzalez used gunboat diplomacy, starting out with basically a list of demands, backed up by the thinly veiled threat of the quinjets.  I think if Jaiying had been sincere about the meeting and only after he insisted on Indexing decided to kill him, I'd be on her side.  However, since she let Cal get juiced before turning him over, it's obvious she was planning this from the beginning, so my sympathy was severely diminished.

 

I'm assuming that Daisy Sue will be the one to have the "why can't we all just get along?" moment that'll resolve this mess.  Then again, I did not see Jaiying's warmongering coming, so maybe the writers will surprise me.

 

I love the debate going on in this thread, it really indicates that the show has done a good job of presenting the situation as not being good vs evil. 

[ahisma]

Unfortunately Skye could have done more calming before the "diplomatic mission" started. SHIELD (both factions) wanted to know more about these "Inhumans" in Afterlife. Yet all Skye did was snark back at May, "I know what you did in Bahrain." She never told them that the little girl was a runaway and a mistake, and that her getting misted and unleashed on the world was an aberration from the way Afterlife runs. She never told them that Jiaying was in Bahrain also to try to contain her. And she certainly shouldn't have snapped at May for killing the girl who was an immediate threat and who even Jiaying said wasn't able to handle her powers. For all SHIELD knew, Afterlife believes everyone with the heritage gets the mist and maybe they get control of their powers or maybe they don't. Skye told Coulson "but it's my mom, so she's cool," but that's not a whole lot of information to go on.

(That said, this is the sort of discussion that Gonzales and Jiaying should have had, not, "Here, let me get all of you on this Index.")

[atua]

Does SHIELD even have a mandate to operate right now? As I understand it, post The Winter Soldier, SHIELD is a rogue agency with no legal authority to demand anything from the Inhumans. If that's the case, Gonzalez coerced this meeting through force and this whole screw up is SHIELD's fault.

[Llywela]

Interesting discussion, guys. The main point I take from it is that this is not a binary opposition. Someone saying 'SHIELD is handling this wrong' does not automatically mean they think the Inhumans are perfect and good, and vice versa. Both sides are handling things badly, because they are flawed individuals acting according to their own fears and doubts and prejudices.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Llywela

[Raja]

Does SHIELD even have a mandate to operate right now? As I understand it, post The Winter Soldier, SHIELD is a rogue agency with no legal authority to demand anything from the Inhumans. If that's the case, Gonzalez coerced this meeting through force and this whole screw up is SHIELD's fault.

Well the US Government is allowing Coulson to operate now and with the helicarrier rescue maybe the world knows Fury was at the helm. Could the hanger have really been hidden in London without the UK's consent? Other national policemen have continued to work with Coulson despite the public pariah status. What gets me is how comic bookie open Hydra has been with their insignia being out there like neo nazis wearing swastikas and their members going to work in black lab coats. I wonder how many were from the incentive program?

[kitlee625]

I actually don't think that Jiaying had any intention of playing nicely, at least not after that conversation with Cal. We can see that she doesn't want to listen to SHIELD but feels that she has no choice because her people and Skye would not approve of all out war. So she and Cal create a situation where they will all have to agree with her. Cal took those potions before being handed over to SHIELD -- their "good faith" offering has become a Trojan Horse. Not that I don't understand why she did what she did. But I don't see her as just reacting to Gonzalez's attitude and the quinjets. She knew about the SHIELD index before Gonzalez told her about it, and she had no intention of working with people who did that. And I love seeing this more active side of her.

 

What should she have done? Honestly, I was really excited when she did kill Gonzalez. I think it really pushes the conflict between these two groups forward in an interest way rather than letting tensions simmer beneath the surface. I don't think that they are going to continue an all out war into season 3, but seeing this little skirmish is going to be interesting. Plus, as we saw, Gonzalez is kind of the extreme end of SHIELD control, and as such, it's clear that he wasn't going to make it out of the season alive. If there is to be peace between Inhumans and SHIELD there are going to have to be more moderate heads in charge.

Edited May 9, 2015 by kitlee625

[Sakura12]

Another thing I like that we are having all this discussion about the show that has nothing to do with love stories or love interests. It's refreshing since that topic usually takes up 90% of discussions in other forums. 

[FurryFury]

Well, not 90%, but yeah, it's just too common.

 

I do like Jiaying's decision, yes, it makes her way more interesting and nicely sets up the big conflict in season finale. I actually expected for it to be SHIELD vs Hydra, not the Inhumans, but AoU took care of that. And I do think that having Skye in the middle will be good for her character. I kinda feel bad for her this season, so much crap piled up on her.

[atua]

I actually don't think that Jiaying had any intention of playing nicely, at least not after that conversation with Cal. We can see that she doesn't want to listen to SHIELD but feels that she has no choice because her people and Skye would not approve of all out war. So she and Cal create a situation where they will all have to agree with her. Cal took those potions before being handed over to SHIELD -- their "good faith" offering has become a Trojan Horse. Not that I don't understand why she did what she did. But I don't see her as just reacting to Gonzalez's attitude and the quinjets. She knew about the SHIELD index before Gonzalez told her about it, and she had no intention of working with people who did that. And I love seeing this more active side of her.

 

I agree that Jiaying had never entered into those "negotiations" in good faith, because she rejects SHIELD's premise for them in the first place. Without a legal mandate, SHIELD are nothing more than vigilantes and she had no obligations to even talk to SHIELD, let alone hand over Cal & Raina or comply with indexing. And those seem to be Coulson's minimum demands, not just Gonzalez's, even if Coulson might be nicer about it. I don't think anyone's seriously debating that Jiaying's false flag operation is wrong, but SHIELD are acting like bullies here. If SHIELD was serious about actually negotiating (as opposed to strong-arming), they should've started off with a meeting between the leaders + a few bodyguards in an agreed upon neutral location.

 

New!SHIELD are acting like it's business as usual post-TWS, and that's one of my big issues with them right now. It's like they haven't learnt anything from the whole Hydra debacle. They're following the same standard operating procedures, same attitude, same command structure, same leadership that allowed them to be infiltrated in the first place. Gonzalez might be wrong about a lot of things, but demanding more transparency and accountability from SHIELD's leaders isn't wrong. I think it's telling how Coulson & Maria Hill reacted to Gonzalez's demands, and even though it's played off as a joke, I think their attitude is exactly why they shouldn't be in a leadership position at new!SHIELD. Just like Fury shouldn't be allowed anywhere near SHIELD after the Hydra screw up.

[Wynterwolf]

Everyone made poor choices based on fear and distrust, but now having seen Age of Ultron, I get what they meant about everything being connected.  

Tony's existing fears were exploited and enhanced to dangerous levels when he was infected by the Scarlet Witch,

which led to that debacle (which in turn impaired Gonzales' judgement here).  And here the Inhumans existing anxiety and fear were enhanced by Raina, which she continued to nudge along when she needed to even though they knew not to trust her, and SHIELD was already fractured and at odds with itself, and infected with fear from within.  Perfect recipe for chaos (and an eerie echo to Bobbie's words about anarchy),  All it needed was a tipping point.  Fascinating.  But given this perfect storm of circumstances, I'm not sure it could have been stopped even if someone had realized what was happening and tried to deescalate it.

 

Aaaand, so much for my thought that Kara might not know she was part of Ward's plan.  Ha!   

Edited May 10, 2015 by Wynterwolf

[xqueenfrostine]

I agree that Jiaying had never entered into those "negotiations" in good faith, because she rejects SHIELD's premise for them in the first place. Without a legal mandate, SHIELD are nothing more than vigilantes and she had no obligations to even talk to SHIELD, let alone hand over Cal & Raina or comply with indexing.

 

I don't think SHIELD's lack of legal mandate is as relevant here as it is for the rest of SHIELD's dealings.  Jiaying and the rest of Afterlife have been shown to see themselves as being apart from the rest of humanity.  That came off most clearly when she and Skye discussed the kind of danger human civilians would be put in by her decision to remove Cal from Afterlife and abandon him in a human city.  If they don't see themselves as part of the human world, then they likely wouldn't see themselves as being under the jurisdiction of human law no matter what organization tried to enforce it.   And with good reason really, since it's unlikely that they've signed treaties with international organizations or individual nations that would make them subject to international law.

[KirkB]

I don't think the index is inherently bad. Keeping track of potentially dangerous super powered people isn't an awful idea. The intent isn't negative. Where I think it falls apart is the execution. Forcing people who have no idea they have powers and/or have never done anything wrong to sign up so they can be monitored and targeted by anyone in authority, and then locking them up when they refuse, is the bigger issue. And that's not even taking into account Hydra infiltrating SHIELD and having access to them and their information, or perhaps even their names and address and relatives being released when Widow did the info dump after Winter Soldier or someone like Cal getting a hold of it. Especially in this day and age it can easily become a hit list, whether it is intended that way or not.

[Cthulhudrew]

Though they've played her up to be this benevolent person, didn't we already have a hint that Jiaying was just as unstable and dangerous as her husband? It seems to me that the story that was told about Skye's childhood kidnapping involved two "monsters" laying waste to a Chinese village searching for her.

 

Two monsters. 

 

Unless I'm misremembering (that was way back last season after all).

Edited May 10, 2015 by Cthulhudrew

[jhlipton]

Even if they didn't a formal "Heads of State" meeting, I think both sides would have been better served by having a group (with Gonzales and Jiaying as spokepeople) for the first meeting would have worked better. Gonzales, Coulson and Fitz, perhaps on one side, Jiaying, Lincoln and Gordon on the other and Skye playing moderator.

[kitlee625]

Though they've played her up to be this benevolent person, didn't we already have a hint that Jiaying was just as unstable and dangerous as her husband? It seems to me that the story that was told about Skye's childhood kidnapping involved two "monsters" laying waste to a Chinese village searching for her.

 

Two monsters. 

 

Unless I'm misremembering (that was way back last season after all).

 

Yes, Raina says "the parents were the monsters." Also when Jiaying is talking to Skye, she says that she and Cal had done some terrible things while trying to find her, and that she finally stopped looking for Skye because she was ashamed of what she'd become, or something to that effect.

Edited May 11, 2015 by kitlee625

[Miles]

I think what Jiaying did was appropriate. When somebody came to me and told me he was going to index my people and probably do a few experiments that would be my raction (or at least my intended reaction, don't know if I actually could kill somebody)

That interaction between Sky and May was just bad screenwriting. It didn't even make sense coming out of Sky's scrambled brain. The little girl was a killer and a danger to many more people, who needed to be taken down. Jiaying even told Sky so.

That May-Coulson-thing was a stretch from the beginning, and now that everything is out in the open, it isn't even that anymore. It fully broke and is not credible anymore. Please stop it, writers.

It's no longer taxpayer funded, so not an issue.

Who is actually funding them these days?

You say "no, and we're prepared to defend ourselves if necessary." Then you wait for Gonzalez's response and let him make his own declaration of war.

What if his response is to pulverise afterlife with rockets? Good luck coming back from that one. There is something to be said for a preemptive strike and when there are quin jets hovering over your home is the right moment for one.

Jiaying's method of starting a war bothers me. Why waste a Terrigen crystal, which they need and presumably have a limited supply of?

Plausible denyability. This way she can say "Oh I went in there with the best of intentions, but when he attacked me I had to defend myself with the only weapon in my office, which was the crystal." It would look weird if she brought a gun.

Also I got the impression that they had quite a few crystals. Plus they still have at least one complete deviner lying around that they can still turn into crystals.

Yes. Actually the Nazis in particular were into making lists of people and Skye Mommy has first hand experience with the Nazis. (As did Magneto.) So I don't blame her for her fear and mistrust I just question her method of dealing with it. BTW as a historical fact a doctor in Germany suggested that people would fear homosexuals less (as in people would be less likely to be violent to homosexuals fearing they were all child molestors and otherwise evil) if they were registered so the heterosexuals knew that the authorities knew who they were and were on top of things if there was trouble. By all accounts the guy really thought he was a force for good. Thing is that then the fascists under Hitler came to power and all the lists were used to round up the homosexuals and put them into concentration camps. I could definitely see someone who dealt with the Nazis NEVER wanting to be on anybody's list.

And even more recently, in the MCU, it turned out that half of SHIELD was actually HYDRA. HYDRA then proceeded to take all of SHIELD's lists and do god knows what with the people on them. That was like a year ago. They probably have satelite TV in afterlife, so they know that. I wouldn't trust SHIELD enough to give them my phone number, let alone my genetic makeup.

On a more sad note, when the KZs were liberated the homosexuals in there were actually thrown into jail by the allies. So gays actually had it worse than the jews. Always find it weird that nobody talks about that... Anywho, it's never a good thing to be on a list for something that makes you different. You might just get jailed by every power on the planet, in more or less bad conditions.

It would make a huge difference to Jiaying when she shot herself with his weapon.

Not really. She could have said "well it looked like a gun", which the icers do.

[jhlipton]

It would make a huge difference to Jiaying when she shot herself with his weapon.

Not really. She could have said "well it looked like a gun", which the icers do.

 

She couldn't hav shot herself with his gun if it was an ice, then run outside claiming that he was trying to kill her.

[Miles]

It wouldn't have as dramatic of an effect, but she could still claim that he threatened her with a gun and she had to defend herself.

[kitlee625]

If she'd been shot with an ICER, she would be unconscious. We know that she has super awesome healing powers, but she is still vulnerable to weapons, so presumably she would have been rendered unconscious for some period of time.

[Sakura12]

Have they ever said how old Jiaying is? I suppose even if she's only 200 years old, she's seen some of the horrific things humans have done to anyone that they consider different. That would make her not want to trust anything they say. I'm not defending her actions at all, I can just understand where she's coming from. 

 

If Gonzales had brought an Icer, Jiaying could just say she thought it was a gun and defended herself. Cops are doing that all the time, or say that all the time. 

[Raja]

If she'd been shot with an ICER, she would be unconscious. We know that she has super awesome healing powers, but she is still vulnerable to weapons, so presumably she would have been rendered unconscious for some period of time.

The question becomes how well known are Icers to the public, both human and Inhuman better or worse than placing our phasers on stun?. As a secret SHIELD and Hydra only weapon as far as we know the NYPD and others have not replaced their officers lethal weapons.  Sure cooler heads would say he tried to kidnap her and not outright assassinate her but the war drums are being beat.

[Tarasme]

 

The index system is the proverbial "slippery slope".  In a simple context, it sounds reasonable, which is why reasonable people initially buy into it.  Until it's not.  And different people have a different point at which they realize it's no longer reasonable, usually it's when they can see how it could be turned on them.

Thanks Wynterwolf- this is very well said.

 

I think this issue is what makes the upcoming MCU Civil War storyline so thought provoking and polarizing. Personally, I'm on the side of personal freedom even if that means myself, or someone I love may get hurt by someone else abusing said freedom. I'm a little surprised AOS has gone there so early and it'll be interesting to see what side of the coin Coulson, Skaisy, May, Jemma, and Leo fall to- if it isn't apparent already. 

 

And now that Bobbi and Hunter may be around for awhile... they'd better kick Wards ass up oneside and down the other.

[ChelseaNH]

It wouldn't have as dramatic of an effect, but she could still claim that he threatened her with a gun and she had to defend herself.

 

The drama is kind of the point.  She wants a big, public drama to push people to panic and start shooting each other.  If she's unconscious in her office, she can't stage manage events to promote her desired result.  If she's explaining things, then the situation is entirely too calm for her purposes.

[Miles]

But who said she actually would have shot herself with an icer? She could have just said "he had a gun". Not as flashy, but probably good enough.

Also the discussion is moot. Gonzales isn't the type to bring an icer, which is also why he was the wrong person to head these negotiations. That was a massive miscalculation on everybodies part.

[John Potts]

This episode was probably the definition of an "Idiot Plot" - two sides who contriving a situation where war became a sensible option. On the one hand, we have Jiayang and the Inhumans, a small group of people who have survived by being hidden declaring war on 6 billion people: on the other we have a "diplomatic" mission led by a man whose opening gambit is "Hello mutants*, I'm sure you won't have any problems with me bringing an armada prior to me taking blood samples of all your people." Have any of these people even heard of diplomacy?

 

Of course, nobody on the SHIELD side ever pointed out (certainly not to the Inhumans) the fact that they were legally disbanded six months previously and has no authority to negotiate with anyone. Well, other than in the "We have lots of guns!" form of authority, that is.

 

Greg247 I'm not convinced, as a taxpayer, that SHIELD is a good use of my tax dollars.
kennyab It's no longer taxpayer funded, so not an issue

 

Which begs the question "Who he hell is funding SHIELD!?" It would take a multi million dollar budget to run a Helicarrier and yet we have at no point seen anyone seeking other sources of funding. Now I realise that nobody watches SHIELD for a gripping tale of forensic accounting, but could they at least talk about how they've run through the secret accounts Fury left them and how they've had to ask Tony Stark for another loan? I get that logistics is dull, but could they at least suggest that they are being addressed?

 

MandolinMagi We already track who has a medical license or a concealed-carry permit. We register cars and sex offenders. Why should we not track those who teleport, throw electricity, or vibrate buildings to bits?

 

 

 

Because they haven't done anything! Sex offender are required to register because they've broken the law, doctors (and other professions) are registered as a quid pro quo for certain priviledges. Asking people over whom you have no legal authority to demand anything of to register with you merely for existing is decidedly sinister (and yes, in Civil War, I'm with Cap and opposed to Iron Man)

 

* I know, in Marvel terms, they're not "mutants"

Edited June 1, 2015 by John Potts

[beanyk]

Because they haven't done anything! Sex offender are required to register because they've broken the law, doctors (and other professions) are registered as a quid pro quo for certain priviledges. Asking people over whom you have no legal authority to demand anything of to register with you merely for existing is decidedly sinister (and yes, in Civil War, I'm with Cap and opposed to Iron Man)

 

Didn't they volunteer to go the Inhuman-izing process, deliberately exposing themselves to the Terragen Mist? They were born with the potential for superhuman powers, but they had to make a choice to attain those powers. Which isn't necessarily wrong, but it's not passive, either. Mutant registration in the off-limits X-Universe is closer to the pre-judging scenario you're presenting.

[John Potts]

beanyk Didn't they volunteer to go the Inhuman-izing process, deliberately exposing themselves to the Terragen Mist?

 

 

I got the impression Gonzalez intended to "Bag & Tag" everyone, not just the "converted". If he was just restricting himself to those who's gone through the mists, I'd have less problems. Of course, there's still the fact that SHIELD has been declared an outlawed organisation, so his authority is purely based on "I've got more guns than you", which is a fairly shaky basis for justification!

[beanyk]

John Potts I got the impression Gonzalez intended to "Bag & Tag" everyone, not just the "converted". If he was just restricting himself to those who's gone through the mists, I'd have less problems.

 

I admit, I'm a bit fuzzy about how the potentials were assembled, but wasn't everyone there (apart from Skye and Raina) there because they wanted to go through the Mist?

 

 

Of course, there's still the fact that SHIELD has been declared an outlawed organisation, so his authority is purely based on "I've got more guns than you", which is a fairly shaky basis for justification!

 

I agree there. I'd want to be a lot surer about the status of such an organization before I start handing out information, like people coming door-to-door asking to see my utility bill in case they can save me money ...