S01.E05: Crows

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

And I think Henry kept Catherine and Mary away from each other because . . . ([arguably] it was wise to do so in case they might plot to dispose Henry, but I don't think that was in Kathrine's nature, as she loved England and its people and didn't want to bring war to them).

That's interesting to know, Verynot, particularly as Mantel's characters strongly suggest that had Catherine put England first, she would have put herself in a monastery, immediately terminating their marriage.  Her political knowledge had to inform her that England required a male heir, for its peace and stability (just as you wrote).

 

(But wouldn't smuggling Mary out of England have guaranteed a war?  And wasn't Catherine part of that plotting with Chapuys?  I'm pretty sure the book and the show said those plottings were going on.)

 

But of course, Catherine getting to a nunnery would mean taking actions that would supplant her own daughter from the future throne.  And throw England to the heretics.  Still, the book left me feeling that Catherine's intransigence ruined her own happiness -- and her daughter's.

 

   SFOSTER21, ON 05 MAY 2015 - 3:31 PM, SAID:

 

AB had the MOST incredible revenge on them all, birthing a long-lived monarch who ruled wisely and kept the peace and left a legacy that eclipsed Henry's. Always loved that.

 

I love how Anne looks hungrily at baby Elizabeth, every time E is whisked away.  The old Glenda Jackson TV series had a character say that Elizabeth I never mentioned or even referred to her mother, ever.

Edited May 5, 2015 by RimaTheBirdGirl

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

 

 

Edited May 5, 2015 by RimaTheBirdGirl

[SFoster21]

That's interesting to know, Verynot, particularly as Mantel's characters strongly suggest that had Catherine put England first, she would have put herself in a monastery, immediately terminating their marriage. Her political knowledge had to inform her that England required a male heir, for its peace and stability (just as you wrote).

(But wouldn't smuggling Mary out of England have guaranteed a war? And wasn't Catherine part of that plotting with Chapuys? I'm pretty sure the book and the show said those plottings were going on.)

But of course, Catherine getting to a nunnery would mean taking actions that would supplant her own daughter from the future throne. And throw England to the heretics. Still, the book left me feeling that Catherine's intransigence ruined her own happiness -- and her daughter's.

SFOSTER21, ON 05 MAY 2015 - 3:31 PM, SAID:

I love how Anne looks hungrily at baby Elizabeth, every time E is whisked away. The old Glenda Jackson TV series had a character say that Elizabeth I never mentioned or even referred to her mother, ever.

I heard that too, but also, there was a locket or some such of her mother's that she kept nearby.

As for Catherine, she was a devout Catholic and could not agree that her marriage was not a real one and her child a bastard. She was very popular and ruled alone for several years while Henry fought his wars. She was principled and wouldn't agree to a lie for some comfort.

Did you know that her mom was Isabella who sent Columbus. Formidable women.

I heard that too, but also, there was a locket or some such of her mother's that she kept nearby.

As for Catherine, she was a devout Catholic and could not agree that her marriage was not a real one and her child a bastard. She was very popular and ruled alone for several years while Henry fought his wars. She was principled and wouldn't agree to a lie for some comfort.

Did you know that her mom was Isabella who sent Columbus? Formidable women.

Edited May 6, 2015 by SFoster21

[blackwing]

This is only a 6 episode series though, and it's supposed to be from Cromwell's point-of-view. Not that not having a sympethetic portrayal of Anne isn't a valid reason to not like the series, but I get why they've written her the way they have. I imagine she will come across as more sympathetic in the next episode. I think it would be hard not to.

Yes, I get that this is Cromwell's story. Unfortunately, I find this Cromwell so very bloody boring. I know those "looks" of his are supposed to convey all sorts of emotion but I always think he's thinking about his last bowel movement.

[ulkis]

Elizabeth I had a ring and it had an oval piece attached to it that when it opened up, there was a picture of her and another woman who people guess was Anne Boleyn.

[sugarbaker design]

Did you know that her mom was Isabella who sent Columbus. Formidable women.

 

 

It was hinted at in the dialogue of a previous episode, some minister says of Mary [and I am paraphrasing] "She could never rule, never command an army" to which Cromwell responds "Her grandmother did".

[proserpina65]

(1)  What is Katharine saying to Cromwell about white silk?

 

She was relating a story about Princess Mary's birth, in winter when no flowers were in bloom, and how Henry gave her roses made out of white silk as a celebration.  It was meant to illustrate her belief that he had loved her once.

[proserpina65]

(fun fact: I grew up in a state where jousting is the state sport)

 

Are you from Maryland, White Stumbler?  I know it's our state sport, but could be others' as well.

[WhiteStumbler]

proserpina65: Bawlmer, Merlin hon!

 

Several posters mentioned the 'white roses' scene and I had forgotten how much that affected my more favorable opinion of Catherine at the end of this episode. Yes, the King loved Catherine once, but the story also shows that she used a physical symbol of that love to give to others as a token of her affection and thanks.

 

I am also a bit confused about something regarding the Catherine / Mary relationship. It was Mary who was next to Catherine when Mary was unable to stand in a previous episode, correct? So if mother and daughter had been allowed to be together once before, why were Henry and Anne determined to keep them apart at the end of Catherine's life?

[sugarbaker design]

So if mother and daughter had been allowed to be together once before, why were Henry and Anne determined to keep them apart at the end of Catherine's life?

 

The forced separation of Catherine and Mary was really about keeping Mary isolated from Catherine and any Catholic allies, lest she conspire to take the throne.  In the eyes of the Catholic Church and most of Europe Mary was the heir to the throne.

[WhiteStumbler]

Thanks, sugarbaker design, but do you know why the inconsistency? Why were Catherine and Mary allowed to be together once (when meeting Crumb), but not later when Catherine was dying?

[sugarbaker design]

I think the inconsistency, and I may be wrong, is the growing fear of Henry and Anne.  Maybe they had information that Catholic supporters were trying to contact C&M.

[kieyra]

Thanks, sugarbaker design, but do you know why the inconsistency? Why were Catherine and Mary allowed to be together once (when meeting Crumb), but not later when Catherine was dying?

 

I think it's a timeline thing, and escalation of the situation, not inconsistency.

 

I don't think Mary was EVER allowed to see Katharine again after her exile. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.) And IIRC that scene where Mary was present was Cromwell informing Katharine of that exile. So Mary wasn't banned from her presence yet, but was about to be. 

 

Meanwhile, Mary was also refusing to recognize any of Henry's maneuvers (his marriage with Katharine being invalidated, himself as head of church, validity of marriage w/Anne Boleyn), and the fact that she publicly refused mattered. So by keeping them separate, he was punishing both women for bucking his authority. 

 

Again IIRC, I don't think Mary ever backed down until some time after her mother's death, and eventually had an uneasy reconciliation w/Henry VIII. (Addressed with reasonable accuracy in The Tudors.) That would have been after the fall of Anne Boleyn.

 

(I think I'm done editing this puppy now.)

Edited May 6, 2015 by kieyra

[ulkis]

Again IIRC, I don't think Mary ever backed down until some time after her mother's death, and eventually had an uneasy reconciliation w/Henry VIII. (Addressed with reasonable accuracy in The Tudors.) That would have been after the fall of Anne Boleyn.

 

No, she didn't. I'm not 100% but I think that "if she were my daughter I would bash her head till it was soft as an apple" line was actually said to Mary's face directly, when Jane Seymour was queen, because she was still refusing to sign acknowledging her father as head of the church.

 

Okay, I went to check, and it was Norfolk who apparently told her that, and it was over acknowledging herself as illegitimate after Anne Boleyn died:

 

http://under-these-restless-skies.blogspot.com/2013/12/princess-mary-tudor.html

 

Here's a good blog about Mary I, although it hasn't been updated in a long while, but it has a lot of interesting articles:

 

http://mary-tudor.blogspot.com/

[duVerre]

 

Okay, I went to check...

 

Great links! Thanks so much for them!

[Constantinople]

She was relating a story about Princess Mary's birth, in winter when no flowers were in bloom, and how Henry gave her roses made out of white silk as a celebration.  It was meant to illustrate her belief that he had loved her once.

Either that or Henry's a secret Yorkist given his affinity for white roses.

He did take after his grandfather Edward IV in more ways than one.

[megsara]

I LOVED that last scene with Cromwell and Henry.  Henry just comes across as SO nervous that Cromwell won't get over his outburst - the weird grin, fidgeting with his hands, the compliments.  Cromwell played that right, keeping (mostly) mum during the council meeting and their walk.

 

I wish this has been 8-10 eps total.  1 more is not enough!

[Quilt Fairy]

I'm not sure if its obvious in the series but in the books it's apparent that Henry is always calling Cromwell "Crumb", so in spite of Cromwell's talents and contributions the class card almost always comes up.  Of course George Boleyn is going to gloat in front of the blacksmith's son, it's what the landed gentry do.

The closed captioning shows the use of "Crumb", I'm not sure I would have caught it otherwise. It also shows Anne occasionally calling Cromwell "Cremwell". I don't know the significance of this, other than at odd times Anne seems to have a strong French accent.

[Blakeston]

I just binge-watched the first five episodes after the series was recommended to me. I had some serious doubts after the extremely confusing first episode, but from the second episode on I've loved it. My only major complaint is one that I know others have also been bothered by - the depiction of Anne Boleyn as the embodiment of spitefulness. (That's a criticism of the writing - not the actress, who I think is wonderful.) If we're supposed to be seeing her an exaggerated version of her, that matches Cromwell's view of her rather than what she was actually like, I don't think they've done a good job making that clear.

 

I'm curious about the assumption, every time Anne gets pregnant, that she's having a boy. I know how desperate Henry was for a boy. But is it purely wishful thinking (and telling Henry what he wants to hear) when people act like it's certain the child will be a boy?

 

Or is it also meant to show faith in Anne - as in, she's so fertile and vital and blessed that of course she'll give birth to a son?

 

Or is the idea that Henry is so virile that he'd naturally produce a son? I would think that would be part of it - but it sure seemed like people assumed that the mother was the one who determined the baby's gender.

 

Or maybe all of the above?

Edited May 8, 2015 by Blakeston

[jjj]

It also shows Anne occasionally calling Cromwell "Cremwell". I don't know the significance of this, other than at odd times Anne seems to have a strong French accent.

In the book, she always calls him "Cremuel," so with a French accent or affectation.  She did spend her formative years in France. 

 

About expecting a son -- it was vital for the English monarch to have a son for succession, so what you are hearing is wishful, forceful thinking.  They are a long way off from knowing where those XY chromosomes were produced.  Or that there were XY chromosomes. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by jjj

[M. Darcy]

 

I'm curious about the assumption, every time Anne gets pregnant, that she's having a boy. I know how desperate Henry was for a boy. But is it purely wishful thinking (and telling Henry what he wants to hear) when people act like it's certain the child will be a boy?

And, desperation.  They didn't realize (or accept given Queen Isabella) that a woman could reign.  To be fair though, the only time England had a queen previously with Matilda, it was not a success.  Also, the Tudors had only taken over the throne with his father so Henry was only the second Tudor.  He felt he needed more sons to continue the line.  Especially considering there was still a few Plantagenets left who some felt had a better claim to the throne.

[meep.meep]

Henry's father was the last English king to win his kingdom in battle.  They had no reason to think that it wouldn't be necessary to do so in the future.  Isabella was a fluke, they thought they needed an heir who could physically fight for the thrown.

 

Someone upthread mentioned that Cromwell was looking lustfully at Jane Seymour - I don't think he is, I think he's watching her take over the king's attention quietly and calmly.  And after that long speech about the lion's claws in the previous episode, it's telling that when Jane wakes Henry up at the banquet, she actually touches him on the hand.  For whatever reason, she's the only one not afraid of him.

[jjj]

Someone upthread mentioned that Cromwell was looking lustfully at Jane Seymour - I don't think he is, I think he's watching her take over the king's attention quietly and calmly.  

I thought he was looking at her with longing and loneliness.  But definitely not lust, I agree. 

[doodlebug]

In the book, Cromwell does seem to like Jane, mostly he seems to be sizing her up as a potential mate for his son, Gregory, who was similarly quiet and soft spoken.  However, the minute he notices Henry's interest in her and especially as she was Anne's opposite in almost every way; he drops any notion of Jane being with anyone but Henry.

 

Anne was a pretty spiteful person, if you follow Tudor history.  She insisted that Mary be declared a bastard and barred from court.  She also made sure Mary was sent to Hatfield to serve as Elizabeth's servant.  She also disliked Wolsey and openly campaigned for his downfall.  She also did indeed wear yellow and dance after hearing that Catherine of Aragón died (of course, Henry did too, angering the Spanish with his lack of respect for his wife of 20 years)..  She was not a particularly nice person; she was ambitious and vengeful.  She probably wasn't unfaithful to Henry, certainly not with her brother, but she was a product of her times and played the game as well as the rest of them.  Her entire family was a pit of vipers who after, practically tossing Mary and Anne into the King's bed, abandoned Anne and her brother when the tide turned against them to preserve their own lives and fortunes.

 

As far as the baby being a boy, these were very superstitious people.  Since having a boy was essential to preserving the Tudor line, it would've been considered poor form, if not bad luck, to speak of the baby as anything other than a boy.  They didn't understand heredity or genetics or even how or when the fetal sex was established.  It was against the law to even speak of the king dying as if speaking of it could make it happen.

Edited May 9, 2015 by doodlebug

[MamaMax]

In the book, she always calls him "Cremuel," so with a French accent or affectation.  She did spend her formative years in France. 

 

 

I got the impression in the books that she deliberately misprounounced his name to piss him off. A little reminder of her power.

[jjj]

I got the impression in the books that she deliberately misprounounced his name to piss him off. A little reminder of her power.

Yes, that was definitely part of it.  One of the things that I am loving about this production is that we really can see him making a list of all these slights from her and others, just by the slightest shift of expression on his face.  It's like his muscles get just a fraction tighter sometimes (of course we know where some of those other characters are headed, no pun intended).  I never thought that kind of interior action could be captured so well, and that is what made me leery of watching this series, after being so captured by the way Mantel conveyed his reactions in the book. 

[Blakeston]

Now that I've read up a bit on Anne's pregnancies, it sounds like she had no shortage of astrologists and other "experts" telling her that her child was definitely male.

 

Anne was a pretty spiteful person, if you follow Tudor history.  She insisted that Mary be declared a bastard and barred from court.  She also made sure Mary was sent to Hatfield to serve as Elizabeth's servant.  She also disliked Wolsey and openly campaigned for his downfall.  She also did indeed wear yellow and dance after hearing that Catherine of Aragón died (of course, Henry did too, angering the Spanish with his lack of respect for his wife of 20 years)..  She was not a particularly nice person; she was ambitious and vengeful.  She probably wasn't unfaithful to Henry, certainly not with her brother, but she was a product of her times and played the game as well as the rest of them.  Her entire family was a pit of vipers who after, practically tossing Mary and Anne into the King's bed, abandoned Anne and her brother when the tide turned against them to preserve their own lives and fortunes.

Anne could certainly be vindictive, but I've always thought of her as a complex figure, rather than a sneering villain. The whole "Torture Thomas More already!" scene, in particular, was very hard for me to believe. I've never bought that she was the instigator for his persecution.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Blakeston

[kitmerlot1213]

I really appreciate all of the insights into this series, particularly from the peeps who have read the novels--now that I realize that we are seeing these events unfold from Cromwell's perspective, I can understand the characterizations better.

 

I do have some Tudor questions/observations though:  why is Jane Rochford called "Lady Rochford" and not "Boelyn"?  And she seems to have taken the place of Mary Tudor as Cromwell's inside person.    Who was the man who taunted Cromwell after the King yelled at him?  Cromwell flashed back to the man being one of the group mocking Cardinal Wolsey. "Mary" the fool kind of freaked me out and I couldn't quite figure out if she was half-mad ot just faking.

 

But seriously, if I lived during this time period, I would never want anything to do with court intrigue--your life depended on the whims of royalty.

[jjj]

George Boleyn's title was Viscount of Rochford, so his wife was Viscountess of Rochford, so, Lord and Lady Rochford.  (The title died when he was executed.) The title becomes the name by which the person is known.  See for instance, below, the birth registry of the new Princess in England -- not a surname in sight for her or her parents!

 

And you are completely right about staying clear of court intrigue.  I'd say half of the characters with speaking roles here end up beheaded in real life.  Karma is a b----, Lady Rochford. 

 

https://www.facebook.com/TheBritishMonarchy/photos/a.170672256287946.33622.151274568227715/924394107582420/?type=1&theater

[kitmerlot1213]

George Boleyn's title was Viscount of Rochford, so his wife was Viscountess of Rochford, so, Lord and Lady Rochford.  (The title died when he was executed.) The title becomes the name by which the person is known.  See for instance, below, the birth registry of the new Princess in England -- not a surname in sight for her or her parents!

 

And you are completely right about staying clear of court intrigue.  I'd say half of the characters with speaking roles here end up beheaded in real life.  Karma is a b----, Lady Rochford. 

 

https://www.facebook.com/TheBritishMonarchy/photos/a.170672256287946.33622.151274568227715/924394107582420/?type=1&theater

 

Okay, that makes sense--thanks:)

 

I really loved the moment when Cromwell thought the king was dead and he immediately turned and started figuring out what to do--from grabbing Princess Mary to stop the Boleyns from killing her or the Catholics from being able to start a civil war was damn intense.

[doodlebug]

 

I really loved the moment when Cromwell thought the king was dead and he immediately turned and started figuring out what to do--from grabbing Princess Mary to stop the Boleyns from killing her or the Catholics from being able to start a civil war was damn intense

It really did underscore the importance of having a line of succession in place and the potential for chaos if there was no designated adult male heir in line.  Remember, too, that the Tudor had only been in power a relatively short time, since Henry VIII's father defeated the reigning monarch, Richard III.  He ended up being the last British king to win his crown on the battlefield, but that was very recent history in Cromwell's time.  It was also preceded by about a century of infighting amongst various factions with claims to the throne; AKA The War of the Roses or The Cousins' War.  Britain's populace suffered greatly and many lives were lost during the conflict and it was still recent enough that it wasn't outside the realm of possibility that it could re-ignite amongst the descendants like the Poles and the Montagues who truly did believe they belonged on the throne and not the Tudors.  Henry was able to keep them in line by reminding them constantly of his power and strength.  The power vacuum after he died could've lead to another civil war.

 

That scene also showed what a brilliant guy Cromwell was and how he was able to think on his feet and stay several steps ahead of the rest of the crowd which is why he'd risen so far so fast.

 

For Cromwell and his family, the loss of Henry would've probably been fatal.  Cromwell was a commoner and the noble families resented his power and influence.  Killing him and possibly his nephew, son and ward would've been first on the agenda should Henry die. And, of course, his family would've  been stripped of all their possessions and left penniless in the process.

 

I didn't have a hard tine believing that Anne would want More tortured.  After all, to that point in time, it was considered routine to use the rack or other torture devices on prisoners to force a confession and More himself did so when questioning suspected heretics.  It was Cromwell who put an end to the routine torture of suspects; but I can see why Anne would've expected More to be treated as others had been.  I really felt it was appropriate for her character, who, except for being married to the king, would've been considered by More to be a heretic and treated accordingly. 

Edited May 10, 2015 by doodlebug

[blackwing]

Who was the man who taunted Cromwell after the King yelled at him?  Cromwell flashed back to the man being one of the group mocking Cardinal Wolsey. 

Younger guy with brown hair and a beard?  That was George Boleyn.

[jjj]

That incident, in the book, is incredibly important; and the four who were mocking the effigy of Cardinal Wolsey came due for "a fat extract from the book of grief", as Mantel put it.  Tonight's the night. 

[nara]

I have read the books, but am very flu-ish today, so the idea of checking it for a few points I didn't understand in "Crows" makes my head swim. Can someone help me out with this?

 

(1)  What is Katharine saying to Cromwell about white silk?

 

(2)  The advice from the European jouster is to relax in the saddle as though just going out to take the air, not to position the lance as a jouster would prematurely and ... to fight one's instincts to survive. Does this simply mean fight the instinct to tense up in the face of possible death? Or am I missing something?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Henry VIII gave Katharine white silk roses when no flowers were in bloom, and she gave people one who had done special favors for her.

 

Someone with more knowledge on the subject will respond but what I know, from personal experience, is that if you take a fall (for example), relaxing into it results in less injury then if you tense your body.    When you go rigid, you are more likely to have something break or snap or fracture (as a bone).  The part that is important is not fighting the instinct to survive, but to somehow relax when your inclination is to become rigid.

 

I vaguely remember a news item from years ago about a drunk guy falling out a window and being unhurt (except minor scrapes) due to the fact that he was relaxed (drunk out of his mind).  Also, I think that survival instinct would cause you to flinch at the sight of a man on a horse coming at you with a lance-- and that could be disaster in a joust.

 

 

 

I did not get that either but honestly that lady freaks me the F out anyway!  She's suppose to be humorous??  Good grief.  I found her to be just spiteful and mean so I figured the stomping on the doll bit was just her being...her.  IDK, I honestly thought maybe I misheard Anne introducing her earlier in the episode to Cromwell. 

 

 

Whimsey98 described it well, but I also think the sense of humor back then might have been a little more cruel.

 

Did Anne say she renamed her fool Mary after the Princess Mary, or are we supposed to infer that?

In any case, nice twofer since Anne's younger sister is also named Mary.

 

I thought that Mary was the older sister.  Mary, Anne, then George.  Anyone have a historical reference?

 

Also, am I the only one who thinks that the show (and probably the books) are a little unfair to the Boleyns?  I know that they were grasping and that Anne pushed Henry to treat Catherine and Mary (and others) in a cruel way.  However, he is the king and he decided to be cruel, and to execute Thomas More (who had been an advisor to him) and to treat Cardinal Wolsey badly.  I feel like a lot of the fictional accounts tend to emphasize Anne and her family's flaws, but give Henry a bit of a pass for the decisions he makes.

Edited May 10, 2015 by nara

[doodlebug]

I thought that Mary was the older sister.  Mary, Anne, then George.  Anyone have a historical reference?

 

Births weren't recorded in those days, so there are opinions either way.  However, there are a couple of letters out there written by Mary's children and they refer to their mother as the elder sister.  Presumably, they knew.

[Yokosmom]

Quote

Also, am I the only one who thinks that the show (and probably the books) are a little unfair to the Boleyns?  I know that they were grasping and that Anne pushed Henry to treat Catherine and Mary (and others) in a cruel way.  However, he is the king and he decided to be cruel, and to execute Thomas More (who had been an advisor to him) and to treat Cardinal Wolsey badly.  I feel like a lot of the fictional accounts tend to emphasize Anne and her family's flaws, but give Henry a bit of a pass for the decisions he makes.

I agree.  I won't say that they weren't a particularly great family, but they apparently were rather the norm when it came to climbing the social ladder.  The Boleyns, Seymours and Howards were all willing to whore out their womenfolk to gain favor with the king.  All of the nobles in the show, despite their arrogance, know that their titles and lives can be swept away by an angry king or choosing the wrong side in a Civil War. Cromwell's position was more tenuous, as commoners always are more vulnerable, but that doesn't mean that the nobles were on secure footing.

Henry tended to focus on what he wanted and then, after the fact, blame others for his decisions.  Including

Spoiler

the execution of Cromwell, which he regretted soon after and blamed on getting "bad advice".