Family Ties: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

[bilgistic]

Unfortunately, I don't feel like I can even approach her (send her a message) since I'm theoretically not supposed to know about the wedding (I guess?). I mean, she and my sister should assume that my mother would tell everyone.

I know it seems like it, but I'm not knocking the concept of religion. People want to believe in ideas and have others believe with them. I absolutely have issues with how religion is interpreted due to how I was raised "in church", which made me the agnostic I am today. I take serious offense to people using religion, prayer, God or Jesus as concepts, e.g., "Only God can judge me," to permit them to do whatever they want, regardless of sensibility, morality or ethics.

I forgot to mention earlier that my niece's pastor is in his mid-50s and his wife is in her early 20s(!!!). She is from Ecuador (he's black; I don't know how they met), and so far they have two young kids with whom she stays home. They were all at my niece's graduation. I can't help but feel like that relationship is an influence on my niece's idea of "normal".

[MargeGunderson]

@bilgistic, you have my sympathy. I’ve got 3 nieces, one of whom followed a path very similar to your niece, and I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the other nieces does the same. I just can’t relate at all - when I was their age I couldn’t wait to move away to college and do something new. They are all bright kids but seem uninterested in anything beyond their immediate environment. I don’t think they’ve really considered options other than getting married young and having kids. The women in my family aren’t terribly self sufficient and I worry that these girls are going to be the same way. (I’m very much the odd one out in my family, in many ways). 

[AgentRXS]

19 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

I’ve got 3 nieces, one of whom followed a path very similar to your niece, and I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the other nieces does the same. I just can’t relate at all - when I was their age I couldn’t wait to move away to college and do something new.

I wonder if this is a generational thing or not. My brother is 26 years old and has proposed/ "gotten engaged" (with no ring) to every girlfriend he's ever had as an adult. My sister is 7 years older than him, and I am 9 years older than him. Neither one of us approached relationships in the same way he does. My friend's grandson is in his early 20s and had a child out of wedlock because "all his friends had one" so he wanted one too.  SMH Youth is wasted on the young.

[bilgistic]

I couldn't wait to get out of the house and away from my family when I went to college. I put too much energy into guys, but otherwise, I loved the freedom of being on my own in college. I never went "home" for the summer. I moved from the freshman dorm to my first apartment after freshman year and never looked back.

I've never been engaged. I was sort of close when I lived with a guy when I was 24. He told me we'd marry "whenever I was ready" and I could see my life with his very rural family and me with x number of kids unfold out before me, and I felt suffocated. I broke up with him and have never been close to marriage since. I've had a few serious relationships since, but none have gone the distance. The last was about 10 years ago. I've dated since then, but not seriously...and not at all in the last 4.5 years. I just don't care that much about it. I prefer the company of cats.

There's a woman with whom I work; I think she's in her mid-to-late-20s, and she's been engaged a couple times. She just broke up with the recent fiance. I just don't understand it. I blame The Bachelor franchise.

[DeLurker]

It may not be generational - when I got my first “real” job after college - so 1987 - I was paired with a more senior analyst to show me the ropes.  She was 35, had been married 5x and hadn’t been married in the last 5 years.  

[hoosier80]

@bilgistic, I think you're spot on re: your niece.  I don't think she really knows this guy.  She knows him from vacation times, basically.  It's a whole different ballgame being with someone all the time.  People who actually know their spouse ahead of marriage always say year one is difficult.  She hasn't explored the world to know what she really wants to do yet.  Since she's so into church/religion, maybe she could've volunteered with a church group helping people in another part of the country (I wouldn't offer up going overseas as I tend to read horror stories about naïve missionaries who reach a tragic end while traveling abroad for the first time.)  But sounds like there's no going back now; I doubt anyone could change her mind.  She's probably got fairytale dreams about how it's all going to be happily ever after.   A friend of mine in college changed her entire course load and plan to marry a jerk.  Literally, every one of her friends could not stand this guy.  We took bets at the wedding how long it'd last.  Yep, within a year, she filed for divorce.  She was one who HAD to be with a guy.  Within weeks of breaking up with one guy, she'd be engaged or be 'engaged to be engaged' (hated that term) with the new guy.  She changed colleges and graduated early, really screwing up her degree.  She'd even been to therapy, recognizing that her needing someone so desperately was sick (she was adopted and said that was the root cause - but her parents were lovely people, gave her everything, supportive of her every move - maybe that was the reason - they gave too much?).  I doubt even if someone who married young and regretted it would change your niece's mind.  It won't happen to her - she's found her prince (or whom she believes is her prince).

And back on my dysfunctional family, Mom is not answering the phone tonight, so she's angry with me for something.  Fan-fucking-tastic.   I am still so sore and tired.  The one thing she said made me shake my head.  She used to do all of the Christmas decorating herself!  She'd take days to do it, giving herself a break some days.  Yes, and had to do it in a day.  One day.  She wouldn't hear of me putting stuff up before Thanksgiving, and then she had other things that were a priority.  So I busted ass to get what would take her weeks done in one day.  Then she said I hadn't really done that much for her.  I think I won't call her tomorrow; at some point she'll call - because she realizes she needs me - even though I don't do all that much for her.

[AgentRXS]

I got my first apartment at 18. I wasted 8 years on and off with a cheating, lying, drug addict and alcoholic first boyfriend. He never proposed and I would have never said yes if he did. My grandmother raised me during my teen years. She lost her my grandfather before I was born, never seriously dated after his death, and instilled in me to be very independent. The thought of marrying anyone or even living with someone in my 20s made me want to run for the hills.  My view on men was that they made great company, but I still wanted them to go home after a couple days. The longest a man has ever stayed at my home regularly was a week and I was so grateful when he left.

I would like to get married someday but at this point I have been on my own for so long I can't imagine shifting gears when to living with someone and dealing with their shit full-time. I love coming home and having peace and quiet. With things so crazy at work, my cats and you all are all the social interaction I'm comfortable with dealing with right now. I know I'm a recluse and that might not be healthy, but I have no energy to deal with people. And honestly, every time I've gone out anywhere in recent years, everyone is so absorbed in their phones that it's hard to meet people or  strike up a conversation anyway.

ETA: @hoosier80 I am so sorry that it seems you are suffering from Narcissistic Abuse from your mother: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/toxic-relationships/201709/how-spot-narcissistic-abuse

My last serious boyfriend was a narc, and I know I'm not fully healed from it. I do hope that you are one day able to break that toxic hold that your mother has over you. You deserve better than to be treated like that. I am here if you ever want to talk.

Edited November 27, 2018 by AgentRXS

[BookWoman56]

I got married at 20 when I was a junior in college. The marriage occurred through a combination of bad circumstances, to the point that I am fairly sure I was in more or less a fugue state when it happened. It was as if I woke up 2 years later and discovered I had both a husband and infant, and not the slightest desire to be married. I was able to resume my education, finish my undergrad degree and go straight into grad school, while negotiating a divorce and custody agreement. @bilgistic, I will say that over the years I've taught college classes, I've encountered many students like your niece who got married more or less straight out of high school and were totally wrapped up in being with a man, who at some point later on developed independent personalities and realized they needed an education to achieve their personal goals. Many of them had kids before they were ready, and while doing so makes it much harder to regain some independence, I've seen enough of them succeed at it to know it's possible if the person is committed to school and/or career. Your niece sounds as if she is wrapped up in the romantic fantasy of being married, because it seems less difficult than having to study for classes, and I agree with everyone who has noted that living with someone 24/7 is a completely different experience than visiting for several days at a time. If it makes you feel any better, often my students who were older and in that situation were much better students than the ones right out of high school, because they were motivated to do well in their classes when 5 years earlier they wouldn't have been. With my own 2 kids, I had only one rule for them, that they were not allowed to get married or pregnant before age 30. 

@hoosier80, your mother is sucking the life force right out of you every time you visit her. She needs more assistance than you can provide, both physically and mentally. Reading  your descriptions of your last visit with her makes me grateful that while my mother has days when she is completely BSC, she at least is appreciative of the fact that I moved her out of the assisted living facility she was in and into my home, and am taking care of her as best I can. Yes, she has days where she can be very demanding but it's a 2-3 on a scale of 1-10. Do not wreck your own physical and mental health taking care of someone who shows zero appreciation for your efforts, engages in the kind of favoritism she does, and treats you like your sole purpose in life is to jump every time she says jump. 

[DeLurker]

@hoosier80 - Is there anyway that the next time you visit you can just stay in a hotel?  It sounds like she really can't be pleased no matter how much you try, so just face the rage straight on maybe?   Say you really need time for yourself and to unwind on your time off, but staying with her is too unstructured and neither of you get enough of what you want out of the visits.

[PRgal]

I think some of this is cultural/regional.  I live in a big, ethnically diverse city in Canada and save for one girl I vaguely knew in university (the school was 2 1/2 hours east of my city), no one in my cohort married before the age of, say, 26 or 27 (this girl married just weeks after graduation and NO, she wasn't pregnant.  She was from a small town and was a daughter of a minister).  First child was usually somewhere in their early 30s.  Some of us didn't have kids until our mid or even late 30s.  As for living away from home:  this is, again, cultural. Some cultures (especially Chinese, Italian, Greek, etc...) expect "children" to live at home until they marry (unless they're going to school or find work out of town).  Unfortunately, we marry much later now than we did in previous generations!  Let's put it this way:  I wanted to officially move out after I finished grad school, but my parents HIGHLY DISCOURAGED me from doing so.  So I didn't really move out-move out until I got married!  I was 30, going on 31.  My family is ethnically Chinese.  

 

Thank goodness my family hasn't really criticized me for not raising my son the way a "good Chinese mom" should.  But I haven't heard anything from the Hong Kongers yet.

[PRgal]

How do you deal with a family member on your DH's side who seems to be obsessed with your ancestral culture?  This individual mentions it ALL.  THE.  TIME...as if your culture is some sort of boy band a 12 year old girl is currently going crazy for (also reminds me of a music professor I once had who had a "thing" for Gregorian chants).  It's one thing to talk about it, but another thing to be gaga-ing over something.  It makes me really uncomfortable.  DH has reminded this individual countless times, but he "forgets."  He also has a habit of NOT using serving utensils but his own cutlery to serve himself.  This isn't an uneducated person nor did this person grow up in a rural area.  He has "exposure" to the world.  

[emma675]

PRgal, how old is this family member? It seems like behavior I'd expect from someone very young and inexperienced socially or someone quite old who isn't up on social norms. Either way it's weird and unacceptable behavior. 

[PRgal]

2 hours ago, emma675 said:

PRgal, how old is this family member? It seems like behavior I'd expect from someone very young and inexperienced socially or someone quite old who isn't up on social norms. Either way it's weird and unacceptable behavior. 

This family member is 70-something and does not live in an isolated community.  This person has even taught at the post-secondary level. 

[bilgistic]

I'm waiting to hear from my mother (who was the only one invited/told about it) if my 19-year-old niece's wedding happened. I'm hoping she came to her senses and was a runaway bride.

[bilgistic]

The wedding happened. My mother texted me back, "It was sweet." STOP SUPPORTING THIS.

[DeLurker]

All you can do know is wish them both well.

[BookWoman56]

On 12/2/2018 at 6:22 PM, bilgistic said:

The wedding happened. My mother texted me back, "It was sweet." STOP SUPPORTING THIS.

Exactly. There's a difference between acknowledging that an ill-advised marriage has occurred and hoping that things work out well in spite of the situation, and making it sound as if you are expressing your approval of it. It would be different if she were directly addressing the couple who just got married, and the best she could come up with was to say it was "sweet," but describing it that way to you makes it sound as if she thought it was wonderful. 

[Bastet]

On 12/2/2018 at 4:22 PM, bilgistic said:

The wedding happened. My mother texted me back, "It was sweet." STOP SUPPORTING THIS.

Ugh; Sorry, @bilgistic, I know you are worried about just how badly your niece is going to derail her life with this, plus frustrated with this head-in-the-sand "awww, young love" hand-waving of reality you have to listen to.  It sounds like you don't have a lot of involvement with the niece or that sister, so I hope you'll be able to largely put it out of your mind as time goes on.

9 hours ago, Katy M said:

She said, "Oh, you only waited 15 minutes? That's not very long?  You should usually wait longer than that."

I'd wait longer than that (probably half an hour [in a social situation like this]), but I'm wholly unaware of some rule that you should wait longer.  If the situation had been as you thought it was, that you had plans she was running late for, you'd be right to expect she'll be paying attention to her phone in case you inquire after her ETA, so 15 minutes without a response is hardly a "I can't believe you left!" scenario.  And, since the whole thing was a mix-up as to the day to begin with, so she wasn't checking her phone, why is she even commenting on your time frame?  She should just say "Sorry for the confusion!" and reschedule.

[BookWoman56]

This will be the first Christmas since my oldest sister died and my mother moved in with me. Not looking forward to this event at all. Last year's Christmas was fairly good, low key with just immediate family and one friend; I got the tree up a couple of weeks before Christmas but there was no rush about it. I had some PTO to use so I could take a day or two off and get the house ready, food prepped, and so forth. This year is pretty much a clusterfuck. My mother has always been obsessive about Christmas, so she wants the big tree in the living room up and decorated now; I got my son to assemble it yesterday and will start decorating it tomorrow. She also wanted a tree for her bedroom, so bought one that still needs to be assembled. The fact that she is at my house means other relatives will come visit, so my brother and SIL will be here the day before Christmas, because they will spend Christmas day itself at her son's house (in the same city where I live). That means having to have everything ready plus some sort of special meal for them that day, and at this point I have maybe half a day of PTO left because of the time I took off when my sister was in ICU and then when I moved my mother over here, etc. There's also the fact that my SIL is a religious fanatic whose mother died within the last couple of weeks, and she's constantly on FB right now telling everyone how her mother is running around in heaven with Jesus now; the SIL alternates between those posts and spouting right-wing conspiracy theories. My younger sister and her husband and son were not able to come at Thanksgiving because of illness, but presumably they will have recovered by Christmas. And at this point I'm about ready to tell my younger sister that I need to draft her a couple of days early, so she can help prep for the visit from our brother and help prep for Christmas day itself, given that I have so little time off left for 2018 and have to save what I do have for an upcoming procedure my mother has scheduled in a couple of weeks. If that happens, it will entail me driving a couple of hours each way to pick her up, because she can no longer drive because of vision problems. 

Normally I could rely on my daughter to help, but her BF's family is going through some serious stuff right now and she's spending a good bit of time at his house to help them. The BF's mother had hand surgery for carpal tunnel about 3-4 weeks ago, and so has limited use of her hands right now. Then a couple of days before Thanksgiving, the BF's father was in a major accident at work, resulting in being mildly electrocuted and falling 15-20 feet from a ladder, and breaking multiple bones. He's out of the hospital now but has to do physical therapy for a while, so things at their house are seriously fucked up. 

Essentially, I am ready for 2018 to be over with. If the procedures my mother is scheduled for work as they should, it will greatly relieve some of her physical/medical problems. And at that point I need to do something about getting some social activities for her, because she's tired of being stuck at home most of the time. OTOH, going out tends to tire her out a lot, and she has zero interest in going to a senior center. So I'm seriously contemplating finding a church she can attend once a week; it's a lot easier for me to take her to a church service on Sunday than to a senior center during the week anyway. I don't want to get dragged into the church myself, because I'm not sure how long I could listen to the religious discussions without stating my actual opinion of religion in general, but I can deal with taking her to one, getting her situated in a Sunday school class where she can socialize with other people, and then picking her up afterward. 

[bilgistic]

My other sister and I have dissected the situation at length. The thing that we keep going back to that is so batshit crazy is that my sister (niece's mother) has never actually told either of us about the wedding! She left it for our mother to tell us. There's no love lost between my two sisters, as they had a falling out of sorts a few years ago, but to not tell *me* is baffling. (I'm the greatest sister ever in her post on my birthday on social media. It's all about appearances.) It *is* kind of par for the course for my sister because she does things and knows they are bad ideas and doesn't want to hear about why they are bad ideas, so she doesn't tell anyone. A few years ago, most of the family and I found about her own engagement (later failed) on Facebook!

And we are pretty sure my niece didn't even finish her first semester/already quit.

I realized today, too, a big part of what was bothering me about the whole thing. My mother will show up to support whatever harebrained idea my sister and her kids are up to but she has never once said to me that she supported me leaving my job for my health. She's extremely reluctant/unable to be supportive of me in my struggles with my mental health. I get that it's because she won't deal with her own shit, so she can't see past that, but that doesn't make it sting less. My sister repeatedly shits on her and hurts her deeply, and she keeps going back to allow it again.

I'll "unpack" this all in therapy Wednesday.

I've decided I'm not acknowleging the wedding on social media. After all, I wasn't told about it, right?! I know I've given it a lot of mental energy to work through it myself, but I don't have to validate the poor choices others make.

This is dark, but some of you will appreciate it: on one of my niece's Instagram posts, she had a gif that said "Pop the champagne, I'm changing my last name!" I immediately thought, "You aren't old enough to drink."

Edited December 4, 2018 by bilgistic

[2727]

My former sister-in-law was 19 when she got pregnant by her first boyfriend and they decided to get married. Nobody liked the guy (slacker, drug use, spottily employed) and her family tried by any means possible to talk her out of it. I felt really sorry for the emotional beatdown she was getting and even though I silently agreed with everyone that it was a bad decision, I decided to be the one person in her life who supported her and was enthusiastic and positive.

As per the odds, she and her husband struggled for a few years before getting divorced. Her ex was not a stable presence in their son's life. That was 40+ years ago and I still wonder if I did the right thing. 

(Although in hindsight, maybe a divorce wasn't all that big a deal in the scheme of things? She remarried and had another kid and is currently living a contented life as grandmother of three. As it happens, her brother and I were the beneficiaries of warm family support and ended up divorced as well.)

Edited December 4, 2018 by 2727

[mbaywife123]

1 hour ago, bilgistic said:

My other sister and I have dissected the situation at length. The thing that we keep going back to that is so batshit crazy is that my sister (niece's mother) has never actually told either of us about the wedding! She left it for our mother to tell us. There's no love lost between my two sisters, as they had a falling out of sorts a few years ago, but to not tell *me* is baffling. (I'm the greatest sister ever in her post on my birthday on social media. It's all about appearances.) It *is* kind of par for the course for my sister because she does things and knows they are bad ideas and doesn't want to hear about why they are bad ideas, so she doesn't tell anyone. A few years ago, most of the family and I found about her own engagement (later failed) on Facebook!

And we are pretty sure my niece didn't even finish her first semester/already quit.

I realized today, too, a big part of what was bothering me about the whole thing. My mother will show up to support whatever harebrained idea my sister and her kids are up to but she has never once said to me that she supported me leaving my job for my health. She's extremely reluctant/unable to be supportive of me in my struggles with my mental health. I get that it's because she won't deal with her own shit, so she can't see past that, but that doesn't make it sting less. My sister repeatedly shits on her and hurts her deeply, and she keeps going back to allow it again.

I'll "unpack" this all in therapy Wednesday.

I've decided I'm not acknowleging the wedding on social media. After all, I wasn't told about it, right?! I know I've given it a lot of mental energy to work through it myself, but I don't have to validate the poor choices others make.

This is dark, but some of you will appreciate it: on one of my niece's Instagram posts, she had a gif that said "Pop the champagne, I'm changing my last name!" I immediately thought, "You aren't old enough to drink."

The fact that your sister and your niece didn't let you know about this marriage speaks volumes to the fact that they already know this is a bad decision. And that you and others would not approve.

You don't need to respond to your mom with other than anything more than either no response (sometimes silence speaks louder than words) or a polite Thank You for letting me know with no qualifiers.

Your sister and her daughter have created this scenario, let them deal with the fall out. Her child, her choice in the matter.

Remember: You can pick flowers, you can pick your friends but you can't pick your family.

[DeLurker]

8 hours ago, 2727 said:

I still wonder if I did the right thing.

I say you did.  If he had been an abusive person, SOP is to isolate the abused.  It sounds like the prospects of her marrying him already put a strain on the family relationship, so giving her a connection back to the family would have kept that from happening.

Just throwing the abuse part out there because it is more common than most of us realize, not because of anything you said.  The family criticism, no matter how warranted, can push the victim closer to the abuser because "no one understands or sees what I see".  As someone who was in an abusive relationship for many years, truly acknowledging that was what was going on was extremely hard on me - I did not know that abuse happens in every sector of our society no matter how you slice and dice us.

[DeLurker]

@BookWoman56 - you've had a nutty kind of year already with a whole lot going on.  If I recall correctly, you moved to a new place, your son & DIL stayed with you for a bit, your sister died and you moved your Mom from Florida (where she was in some kind of care facility) to your house in Texas, getting her set up with new doctors, etc...Please don't stress yourself out over trying to make things perfect according to someone else's idea of perfect.  Recruiting your younger sister to help may be more headache than you need since she comes with some issues attached to her.  And you have limited PTO...between your Mom, son & family, brother & his wife - your dealing with a LOT more people than prior years.

Christmas decorations do not have to look like a Hallmark movie threw up in your living room.  A tree, fresh house plants and flowers, some candles and some decorations can create a peaceful, but appropriately seasonal, setting.  Instead of knocking yourself out cooking, make a nice fruit, cheese & cracker plate, some good wine or champagne than go out to dinner as a family, order in pizza or make a big pot of spaghetti.

You can put more of the decorations up in your mom's room since she is really into it. 

But seriously, right now you have a lot on your shoulders and if you get worn out/spread to thin, there's really not a lot of family that can pick up everything your doing. Be kind to yourself.

[BookWoman56]

@DeLurker, thanks for the advice. A few of the events you mentioned were from last year; this coming day after Christmas marks the one-year anniversary of my son and DIL closing on their house and so being in their own space. They are in the same neighborhood, so we all have more privacy but close enough to help out easily. However, I've decided to do the decorations in my living room like I normally would, which is essentially just putting up a tree, with the only addition being a couple of extra folding tables to put my mother's Christmas village crap on. It won't fit in her bedroom without some major shifting around of stuff, so it's easier to do it in the living room where there's plenty of space. My son has already helped move a couple of pieces of furniture to make room for the tree, and the tables that will arrive tomorrow. As for the impending visit by my brother and SIL, I may just opt to go get a bucket of chicken and some sides. I may end up going to pick up my sister a day or two early anyway, but will see how that goes. If she stays for a few days, she can help out with various things; if not, it won't really matter. I had forgotten I still had a day of personal holiday PTO, so I'm using that for the day before Christmas, which gives me the weekend and then Monday to do the bulk of the normal housecleaning, food prep, and so forth. I will probably repeat my strategy from Thanksgiving, by mixing up a few things (dressing, sweet potato casserole, etc.) a few days early and sticking them in the freezer, to be cooked on Christmas day.

And since I will have a fresh batch of PTO effective New Year's, I have gone ahead and scheduled PTO for the rest of that week. That will give me several consecutive days off to relax and catch up on some things. I do absolutely nothing for New Year's so there's no big meal or party to plan for. And I am sticking with a resolution I made earlier this year; when my bonus arrives in March/April, I'm going to do a solo vacation for a week and just enjoy being on my own for a while. If it coincides with my daughter's spring break, then she can handle taking care of my mother for a week; that worked fine when I had to travel for business earlier this year. If my vacation doesn't coincide with spring break, then I will either get someone through a home health care agency to come in during the days for that week or see if another family member can come help out. I know I need some solitude for a while and to do a few enjoyable activities strictly for my own benefit. 

@bilgistic, if your sister and niece couldn't be bothered to notify you about the wedding, then you're not obligated to acknowledge it, offer congratulations, etc. I do sympathize with your mother being supportive of one sibling while failing to be supportive of you. My mother has always given my younger sister a pass on all her bad decisions and frequently dismisses her situation as "bad luck" rather than the inevitable result of an entire chain of bad decisions, or else she blames the entire situation on my younger sister's husband. For the rest of us, she was reasonably supportive when we hit an occasional bump in the road, but with my younger sister, it has always been as if she is completely blind to reality. 

[DeLurker]

8 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

A few of the events you mentioned were from last year;

Wow!  How does time fly and stand still at the same time?  At least for me...it sounds like you've given yourself the ok to be sensible about the holiday happenings and to lean towards what is more in line with your idea of things.  I heartily approve and applaud that decision - it always sounds so simple to someone else, but gets a lot more complicated once it is in your own lap.

Your plan for a week of solo travel sounds great!

[auntlada]

17 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

I may just opt to go get a bucket of chicken and some sides.

That actually sounds really good to me. We used to do that at my parents' house until my father died. Before and after the funeral, we had so much KFC no one wanted to see fried chicken again for a long time. My mother put some in the freezer, but after a while, she just threw it out. And then the KFC there closed, so I never get KFC any more (ours has a history of food poisoning).

17 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

My mother has always given my younger sister a pass on all her bad decisions and frequently dismisses her situation as "bad luck" rather than the inevitable result of an entire chain of bad decisions, or else she blames the entire situation on my younger sister's husband. For the rest of us, she was reasonably supportive when we hit an occasional bump in the road, but with my younger sister, it has always been as if she is completely blind to reality. 

Is she the youngest child? If so, I wonder if that plays a part in your mother's behavior, that your sister was her last baby for so long that your mother never really stopped treating her that way and still thinks of her as a child who is too young to know any better. (I'm speaking as a youngest child. Although I don't think my parents ever treated me quite like that, I do get the feeling sometimes that the rest of the family still thinks of me as too young to be able to take care of things. I'm 50. I'm not too young.)

[DeLurker]

10 minutes ago, auntlada said:

, I do get the feeling sometimes that the rest of the family still thinks of me as too young to be able to take care of things. I'm 50. I'm not too young.)

I’m the youngest too.  My brothers are always surprised when they think I’ve handled something competently.

[PRgal]

15 hours ago, DeLurker said:

I’m the youngest too.  My brothers are always surprised when they think I’ve handled something competently.

I'm an only child, pushing 40 and my parents think the same way.  I'll always be a baby to them.  And as I'm not going to have any additional children, I wonder if I'll see my son that way. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by PRgal

[BookWoman56]

On 12/5/2018 at 4:53 PM, auntlada said:

That actually sounds really good to me. We used to do that at my parents' house until my father died. Before and after the funeral, we had so much KFC no one wanted to see fried chicken again for a long time. My mother put some in the freezer, but after a while, she just threw it out. And then the KFC there closed, so I never get KFC any more (ours has a history of food poisoning).

Is she the youngest child? If so, I wonder if that plays a part in your mother's behavior, that your sister was her last baby for so long that your mother never really stopped treating her that way and still thinks of her as a child who is too young to know any better. (I'm speaking as a youngest child. Although I don't think my parents ever treated me quite like that, I do get the feeling sometimes that the rest of the family still thinks of me as too young to be able to take care of things. I'm 50. I'm not too young.)

Yes, she is the youngest child, and that status probably plays into my mother's mindset, but this is to such an extreme that it's hard to believe that's the only thing going on. My younger sister was always my mother's favorite, because of similarities in appearance and personality, although my mother didn't engage in an unending string of bad decisions and never take responsibility for them. I do have to say, though, that despite my mother being unwilling to accept that my younger sister's situation is the result of her own actions, she's not delusional enough to think my younger sister is suitable to take care of her (my mother). She knows full well and has stated a couple of times that if she had ended up living with  my younger sister, that my brother-in-law would take all of her monthly income and use it on drugs, etc. 

@PRgal, I don't think it's inevitable that you see your son as a baby and never quite grown up, even when he is. My two kids are 15 years apart, and it's been relatively easy for me to accept that they are adults now, and for the most part, capable of making their own decisions. With my daughter, the situation is slightly different, because she's in college and is still living with me, and is bipolar. She discusses major decisions with me, but my role is more of a sounding board. I don't always agree with her decisions but I recognize that she has the right to make them, whether they turn out to be good or bad. If I felt she was about to do something that would be catastrophic, I would feel compelled to sit down with her and give her my reasons for opposing whatever it was, but ultimately, it's her life and she has to navigate it as best she can and how she wishes. She at least has learned from her mistakes. As an example, last year she got involved with a guy who was in her physics class; they had not known each other previously and got involved a few weeks into the semester. I did comment to her that doing so might be a problem if the relationship ended badly, but she didn't think it would. The guy was a few years older than she was, and got way too serious way too fast; about a month before the class ended, she broke up with him. He just didn't want to accept that for a while. Tons of texts, awkward conversations before and after class. It didn't quite turn into a stalking situation, but it was very uncomfortable, to the point that she didn't go to class at all except for tests the last few weeks of the class, and changed her major from physics to math so as not to have to have future classes with this guy. She started dating someone else fairly soon afterward, but he is a guy that she'd known for a couple of semesters and he's not someone who was looking for an instant serious relationship. But she did comment to me that in retrospect, it was a bad move to get involved with the other guy after such a short time and having a class with him (lab partners, too), because it was incredibly uncomfortable once they broke up.

[Mountainair]

@bilgistic I'm just now catching up on threads- my kids go to year round school and have the whole month of December off so my time is limited these days. 

It sucks that you weren't notified about the wedding but I did want to chime in with my own experience. I met my husband when we were 14- almost 15. We dated all through high school  (much different than your niece's situation with the long distance deal and age gap). I went off to college at 17 and he moved to the beach to surf. I hated college and dropped out after a couple of months because I felt guilty wasting my parents money and moved to the beach to be with him. We both got pretty shitty jobs and made it work for a few months before deciding to move back to our hometown where my boyfriend could get a better job. During all of this my family legit disowned me for "living in sin" and "ruining my life" . His family was supportive. (Now not so much if you are familiar with my other posts on this thread). Anyway, we were engaged and married 6 months before my 20th birthday. We quickly moved away from our hometown for somewhere with more opportunity and had our first child 5 years later. By the time we had our 2nd child I was the branch manager of a local bank and my husband was part owner of a business. All without a college education but a desire to strive and provide on our own. We will be married 15 years this June and my family  quickly got over their shit and couldn't be more wonderful. It doesn't work for everybody so I can certainly see the concern.

[PRgal]

So my son's 100 Day celebration dinner (aka the Red Egg and Ginger celebration) went out today.  It was from Evite and there was a note at the bottom saying that we would like our guests to consider a contribution to the charity we picked.  The note has a link to our fundraising page.  My dad then texts me to ask whether guests would know to click.  I replied by saying that there's a link.  The conversation basically went like this:

PRdad: Would guests know to click on the link?

Me: Sure.  It's a link, right?

PRdad:  I'm not sure.  I'm not sure if Uncle or Auntie ______ would...

Me: But it's a different colour?

PRdad: Still...and why do you have a goal amount?

Me: Because that's what most people do.  And the site won't let you hide it.

PRdad: Know that not everyone will use the site.  I don't want you to be disappointed.

Me: Well, if they give us cash, then we'll donate the cash (or cheque).  They DO need to know that they're not going to get a tax receipt if they give us the money.

PRdad: They might not understand.  It's not standard.

Me: Well, we want to be different.  We're already holding the event at ___ Club, not at a Chinese restaurant.  We have friends with religious and health-related dietary concerns which most Chinese restaurants and Chinese banquet menus won't or can't accommodate.

PRdad: Just don't be upset if you don't get ANY money donated online.

Me: _________ (basically, I didn't reply back)

 

This is frustrating.  So what if we're doing something different?  The charity we picked is children's literacy related - it's a book bank, giving kids in lower-income neighbourhoods access to books not just to read, but to OWN.  Our son has a pretty big library for a baby and not every kid has that privilege.  

[theredhead77]

On 10/22/2018 at 9:01 AM, theredhead77 said:

I booked my December flight home - I fly in on a Thurs (land around 1pm) and out on Sunday (dept around 11am). I plan to have after dinner plans on Friday and Saturday afternoon / evening plans with friends.

I would book a later flight on Sunday (normally I take the 1:55 flight) but it's not like my mom gets up so we can have breakfast / brunch in the morning). 

We'll see how this trip goes.

This trip was the best trip, by far. Unbeknownst to me, my mom had a chat with my dad. TV was off during presents and visiting time after Hanukkah dinner and my dad wore his hearing aids. He stayed in the living room to visit and was really fascinated with the Google Cardboard goggles I bought them. He didn't have the TV blasting and even turned it off when I sat at the table the next morning for breakfast (though I did suggest he turn it back on to watch his morning shows - we're not a morning chatty family). 

My mom and I went to lunch and shopping on Friday and I met up with a friend Friday night. Saturday she got up early (for her) and we worked on a puzzle for a few hours until I left to visit other friends Saturday afternoon / evening. Sunday I left for the airport around 8:30 so she just got up to say goodbye.

I'll be going back in April for my dads birthday, hopefully the behaviors stick.

[BookWoman56]

@PRgal, your father is probably just expressing his discomfort at the modern way of celebrating the baby's milestone. My guess is that guests who are fairly comfortable with technology and wish to give a gift will use the link from the invitation, and those who are less comfortable will simply show up with the traditional envelopes or other baby presents. Since you're a new parent (right?), just deal with the fact that when it comes to your child and the rest of your family, there's no way to please everybody, so do what is most comfortable for you but understand that other family members will periodically freak out over your choices.

I got a text from my brother today saying that he and his wife will not be coming to my area for Christmas after all, and will instead try to come in a few months. I'm long past the point where I would feel guilty about being let off the hook here. When they do come, I'll feel perfectly comfortable with a low-key meal or light refreshments, depending on what time of day they're coming. 

[DeLurker]

@theredhead77 - so happy that the visit went well!  

 

@BookWoman56 - I’m glad that one of your holiday stressors have had a change of plans.  It sounded like you were going to be spread pretty thin with all the family and without your daughter being able to help as much as she normally would.

[methodwriter85]

My mom that I live with decided to buy a present for herself and pretend that I gave it to her, because last year apparently one of my sisters bitched that I only got her some lotion last year.

I was pretty offended and got upset, but when I got myself together I told my mom, "Thanks, but it's not necessary." I'll give my mom the gift that I already got her- a rice cooker, because she needs one and I got one at Black Friday for a good price.

These are the same sisters that got me a package of Top Ramen one year and disposable cameras another year, so they can get bent.

[PRgal]

On 12/10/2018 at 7:51 PM, BookWoman56 said:

@PRgal, your father is probably just expressing his discomfort at the modern way of celebrating the baby's milestone. My guess is that guests who are fairly comfortable with technology and wish to give a gift will use the link from the invitation, and those who are less comfortable will simply show up with the traditional envelopes or other baby presents. Since you're a new parent (right?), just deal with the fact that when it comes to your child and the rest of your family, there's no way to please everybody, so do what is most comfortable for you but understand that other family members will periodically freak out over your choices.

I got a text from my brother today saying that he and his wife will not be coming to my area for Christmas after all, and will instead try to come in a few months. I'm long past the point where I would feel guilty about being let off the hook here. When they do come, I'll feel perfectly comfortable with a low-key meal or light refreshments, depending on what time of day they're coming. 

I should also add that my parents were REALLY insistent on giving guests ACTUAL red ginger eggs.  First of all, other than pre-wrapped cookies or chocolate (say), the club would NOT allow outside food.  And secondly, no one actually eats those things (they're dyed hard boiled eggs - think Easter eggs).  We're getting egg shaped gingerbread cookies with red frosting.  People will actually EAT that (well, unless they're gluten-intolerant).  

[theredhead77]

5 hours ago, PRgal said:

We're getting egg shaped gingerbread cookies with red frosting.

Those sound delicious and a great spin on tradition!

[PRgal]

18 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

Those sound delicious and a great spin on tradition!

That's what the bakery said (on the spin)!  I think the parentals STILL think it's crazy.  But people would like this MORE!

[VioletNevermind]

Hi, fellow PTVers. I enjoy snarking so much with you all that I thought I’d get your opinions. Warning: It’s long. Thanks for reading, but I understand if you don’t.

I'm really struggling with my 18-year-old daughter. First, a bit of background: I was a single mother from day one; my ex-husband left our home when she was only 8-months-old. He was physically and emotionally abusive, arrogant, and entitled. I “allowed” it because I didn’t think I deserved much more than that and I was so young that I didn’t know how to extricate myself from the situation. I had full custody from the start and he was permitted the standard every other weekend visits. He canceled about 40% of those visits over the entire span of my daughter's childhood. He has done his best to turn my daughter against me with lies for years and as she's grown older, she has gravitated toward him because he has never had any rules/chores for her. In other words, I've been the actual parent and he's been the buddy. You can guess whose opinion she respects more.

She just wrapped up her first semester of community college and nearly failed one of her classes because she didn't do the work. It bears mentioning that I purposely worked at our local state university for the last 19 years so that she would get free tuition, but she didn’t earn good enough grades to be accepted and she just wasn’t ready in terms of her maturity for a four-year school. Again, she’s 18, but more like 15 or so emotionally. I stayed in an area I could barely afford solely so that she could attend good schools. She doesn't care about any of this (not that I necessarily expect her to, given her age and maturity level). About halfway through the fall semester, she pursued an unemployed, drug-using guy on Instagram and arranged a meet-up with him. She was very poorly influenced by him and eventually announced that she is not attending classes in the spring or summer of 2019 because she wants a "break" to hang out and skateboard with him as much as possible. She said she wanted to “feel the wind in her hair, create, draw, and get in touch with her inner self” until fall 2019. As for work, she would prefer not to do so at all, but I told her that she must work a minimum of 25 hours per week and pay a small amount of rent (some of which I would set aside for her for later) if she wanted to live with me. She viewed that as unfair and cruel. I was trying to be gentle with her and ease her into adulthood, believing that if she moved to her father's where anything goes, her life would spiral out of control quickly. Basically, I was trying to help her avoid the pitfalls of my own past and position her for success, as I always have. I recognize the error in that thinking now.

I determined a reasonable curfew for her in a three-way conversation with her father a few months ago, but he stopped enforcing it because he didn’t want to be the bad guy and he simply didn’t care. I told her that I recognized that she was (barely) 18, but if she expected to live at home rent-free, she would have to follow a few basic rules, help out around the house, and treat me and our home with basic respect. I told her that as long as she was in school, no rent would be expected because I wanted her to succeed. I also told her that she would gain more freedom and independence as she demonstrated more maturity and worked more. She resented and fought against every single bit of it. My daughter told me for about a year that she wanted to continue living with me, but not in a family sense. She wanted to use me as a home base (i.e. proximity to work and a few creature comforts that she doesn't have at her father's), but go to her father's house to stay out until all hours or, recently, overnight at her last boyfriend's house. When I lost my patience and got angry with her (admittedly, sometimes very angry), she took zero responsibility for what she was doing to contribute to the situation. She has decided that she is a vegan and expected me to buy her the pricey foods she wanted so she could blow her paychecks on junk week after week. She spent her entire bank account (about $1,000) on junk in October. Meanwhile, I’m eating a cup of homemade lentil soup and a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch at work five days a week to save money. She broke her arm in September while skateboarding and refused to wear her sling during the treatment period. I occasionally attempted to engage her father in three-way text messages to get to a place of mutual understanding among all three of us, but he denigrated and cursed me while our daughter supported him. I'm getting ready to fulfill a 20-year dream and finally move from an apartment to my very first home. I'm not a woman of means, so this is something I never expected to actually happen. I was very resentful of the fact that she would be enjoying my home rent-free all day long while I'm at work for nine hours.

Her choices over the past couple of months have gone from bad to worse. I found out a few weeks ago that she is spending time one-on-one with a 25-year-old man she met on Instagram (I hate that freaking app, haha). He makes the first boyfriend look like a Boy Scout. She insisted at the time that they weren’t “dating,” but they are now. Last weekend, she went to her father’s and had this man pick her up. They were out until around 2 a.m. The following night, he picked her up and took her to a skatepark he’s building in the woods 90 minutes from home and then to a house party where she was the youngest person by between seven and 10 years. She was one of the only girls and everyone was drinking. She didn’t get back to her father’s until nearly 3 a.m. I know what some people think: She's 18 and shouldn't have a curfew. However, she was living in my house and I’m not comfortable with her being out all night yet, nor do I think she's anywhere near responsible enough to make halfway decent decisions.  Her conduct lately is proof of that.

When I attempted to discuss these issues with her last weekend, she informed me that the conversation was over because it was unproductive. She was supposed to come home last Sunday night, but I told her I was still very upset and wanted her to delay her return to the following night so I could calm down and decide how to handle the situation.  She and her father responded with extreme anger. When we talked the following day, she told me that she had decided to move in with her father, effective immediately. She had been using this as a hurtful threat for at least two years whenever I attempted to enforce rules or expressed anger at her disrespectful attitude. The moment has finally arrived: she’s leaving. I’m falling apart inside. It’s been all I can do to hold it together this week. Needless-to-say, the holiday season hasn’t made it any easier. She is my only child and I’m terribly sad, lonely, and dealing with incredible guilt that I don’t fully understand yet. I’ve started therapy again and intend to stick with it. I cannot believe how I allowed myself to be treated by her father, and eventually her, after nearly two decades of sacrifice and effort to raise the best person I could- by myself! I feel like a fool. My entire life was my daughter for 18 years. Our contact now is pretty minimal. She’s on Instagram about 18 hours a day and I’ve contacted her there just to say hi, but her responses are minimal and she doesn’t reach out to me first. I feel like I’m losing my daughter for good and there’s nothing I can do about it. I have no clue how to handle this.

If you’ve made it to the end of this diatribe, I thank you. I feel like my heart is being ripped out of my chest. I’d be so appreciative of some advice on how to deal with this empty nest emotionally, as well as how to interact with my daughter moving forward at a time when she takes zero responsibility for her part in any of this. Thanks in advance for any guidance!

Edited December 23, 2018 by SuzyRhapsody

[Mindthinkr]

@SuzyRhapsody First let me offer you a huge hug. Any teen is challenging, but yours is being hurtful and disrespectful to you. I take offense to that on your behalf. 

You cannot control what she is doing and I’m sure at some point even your ex is not going to like just being her crash pad and monetary support system. Until she matures more and begins to realize what life is actually about, you are stuck with this situation. 

In the meantime you are still worth having a life. Go find some new activities that you enjoy, hopefully meet some new friends and do not feel guilty about making life about yourself for a change. At some point all the little birdies fly the coop. As good parents we always put them first and then when they go we have the shock and the realization that we are alone and life is no longer centered on them. Go begin a new life for yourself. 

It sounds like you have done and tried everything that you can think of to better the situation. Keep with the therapy. It will help you during this painful transition. It will help give you perspective and make you more comfortable with the choices (sometimes painful) that you are going to have to make. 

She is in for a rude awakening when Daddy gets a new girlfriend and it’s not all about her. When she does mature she may see the errors more clearly and respect all that you have done to try and give her the best life possible. 

My heart goes out to you during this painful time. Be wishes forward. 

[DeLurker]

@SuzyRhapsody - I’m sorry - truly.  There would never be a good time for all of this, but being near the holidays makes it sting even more.

You have a lot of details that I wouldn’t expect a teen to share so willingly - stuff like the house party, ages of attendees, few girls, drinking...is she sharing this with you?  Cause when I was her age, I did not talk to my Mom about anything I wouldn’t want her to know.  

[BookWoman56]

@SuzyRhapsody, I sympathize with your situation, especially with it being the holidays. It must be incredibly frustrating to feel that your daughter has no appreciation of what you have done for her, and it sounds as if she wants to simply use you as a means of support completely on her terms. That said, I do think you need to step back from the situation for a while. Your daughter is 18 and legally old enough to make her own decisions. Those may be bad decisions, but from your statements, you made your own bad decisions earlier in your life and learned from them. She needs the opportunity to do the same. I also understand your frustration that she doesn't want to attend college right now. However, as someone who has taught a lot of college students over the years, I will say that if she's not mentally committed to going to college at this time and wants more or less a gap year, she's better off taking the time off instead of doing a half-assed job of taking classes, blowing her GPA to the point she gets put on academic probation, and essentially wasting tuition money because she's not ready to deal with it.

A few years ago my daughter had finished high school via home schooling (combination of factors: she's bipolar and was having major anxiety attacks in a regular classroom setting, and she's extremely intelligent and was bored/not challenged enough even in her AP classes). But after that, she spent close to two years where all she really wanted to do was go to anime conventions, because she enjoyed them and she said for a while she just wanted to do something fun. In the course of going to those conventions, she met someone who was starting up a business on the side, and ended up working on a part-time basis for him, out of our home, doing 3D printing both to make stuff to sell at the conventions and for medical/legal purposes. It was a real learning experience for her, especially when she got one of her friends to work as well, and had to train her and coordinate production, booking booths at the conventions, etc. After doing that for a couple of years, she was ready to start school; she's now in her junior year as a math major, full scholarship, working as a tutor at the math lab, etc. If I'd pushed her to go to college when she was 18, it would have been a disaster. She was fairly mature for her age, but she needed the time to learn how to be around people without having anxiety attacks and so forth. 

Obviously the situation with your daughter is different, but there are still some similarities there. Nothing you can do right now is going to magically transform her into someone with fully adult sensibilities and a sense of being responsible. She has to do that herself. Yes, it's hard to sit there and watch her making decisions that you don't agree with and think may be harmful. But if she doesn't make her own decisions, including some that turn out to be mistakes, she will continue to have the maturity level of a young adolescent rather than a young adult. From everything you've said, including the anger you've expressed, the two of you need some distance because right now there's resentment and anger on both sides.

My advice for you would be to stay in therapy if it helps, but accept the fact that you have to let your daughter go live her life, even if you think it's going to be a complete clusterfuck. Right now she's at that point where you're the bad buy and  her father's the good guy, but that's not likely to last forever. In the meantime, you need to concentrate on your own life. You're about to purchase your first house, and you should enjoy that experience fully. Do things for yourself; you're no longer responsible for her. In all likelihood, within a year or two, maybe less, she'll become more mature and will appreciate your intentions. For your part, try to accept that she's going to live her own life, making decisions here and there that you don't like. It may be that she turns into an adult that you love as your daughter, but don't like as a person. It may be that the two of you will have a good reconciliation down the road and develop a closer relationship than what you've previously had. If she's listened to her father lie about you all these years, it's not surprising that she has negative feelings about you, but it's probably going to take living with her father for a while for her to be able to discern the truth. None of this is easy, but as others have noted, whether she left on good terms or bad, it's natural for your children to leave your home sooner or later and go live elsewhere, whether that is on their own, with a romantic partner, with a roommate, with another parent, etc. 

[PRgal]

@SuzyRhapsody:  We were all 18/19 at one point.  While I chose a more "standard" route of undergrad immediately after high school, other kids might fare better doing something else.  Does your daughter have any interest in volunteering for certain causes?  Maybe a gap semester (rather than a gap year) to volunteer with a hospital or museum?  I know you don't have much contact, but if there's any way you can steer her that way.....

[Bastet]

9 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

I do think you need to step back from the situation for a while. Your daughter is 18 and legally old enough to make her own decisions. Those may be bad decisions, but from your statements, you made your own bad decisions earlier in your life and learned from them. She needs the opportunity to do the same.

I second this, @SuzyRhapsody.  She's determined to fall flat on her face, and you have to let her.  I'm not a parent, but I sympathize with your sheer terror at just how badly she may manage to screw up her life and how long it may take her to fix it.  And your anger at how thoroughly you worked to do right by her only to have her take a steaming dump on all that effort.  Not to mention your frustration that your specific aim was to prevent her from making the same type of mistakes you made at that age, yet, here we go, history is repeating itself.  Keenly sympathize; I read your post and just sat here for a while feeling terrible for what you are going through.  So I do not mean to sound like it's a simple, obvious thing - just step back.  I know it's not.  That's your child.  She's technically an adult, but that's your baby, your only baby, and she's doing everything wrong and could wind up in some real trouble because of that.  I understand that this is agony for you.

It's just that there is no way of making her do things differently.  You have done all you could to guide her, but she has chosen a different path and won't be deterred from it by anything you say or do at this point.  Hopefully snippets of your conversations will ring in her head from time to time and annoy her into giving them some thought, and she'll come to see what's really going on.  But she's reached the point where she has to learn the hard way.  Hopefully, in time, she will indeed learn.  (And deliver you a heartfelt apology when she does, and you two will settle into a new relationship.)  For now, though, your hands are tied.  Her choices have effectively whittled yours down to one, and you just have to let it play out.

[VioletNevermind]

To everyone who has replied so far, allow me to thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time to offer some guidance and support to a hurting mama who isn’t feeling quite so snarky these days.  I have gained some valuable perspective from every reply.  This has been one of the hardest things I’ve ever navigated and I really have no idea how to do it except to simply put one foot in front of the other and just do it.

She came over today to pick up one of two loads of her things.  She was somewhat terse and basically polite, but that might have been because I purposely had my best friend here for support.  She has confirmed that she’s quitting her jobs (that I forced her to keep) and as we speak, she’s hanging out far from home with the skateboarding bunch of ne’er do wells she’s met on Instagram.  They’re all trashy guys and they’re much, much older and much, much more experienced than she is.  I think at this point, it comes down to prayer and doing my best every day to continue on with my own life.  My home sale is final this Thursday.  It’s the fulfillment of a lifelong dream and one that I couldn’t fulfill when she was in school because I didn’t want to force her to change schools.  Everything I did all those years was with her and her future in mind and I’m trying to come to grips with the fact that she doesn’t necessarily have to appreciate it or adhere to it.  It’s enough that I did it.  If I had allowed her to drop out of school, stay out all night, spend every dime of her money on crap, and work a handful of hours per week, I never would have forgiven myself.  As I always told her, we are better than that.  All she wants to do is skateboard and hang out.  I proposed the idea of volunteering somewhere (a fantastic idea, @PRgal!), but nope.  I attempted to explain to her that a gap year/semester is not about having as much fun as possible.  In fact, many kids who do that end up doing and learning much more than they would have had they spent that year in school!  Hopefully, she’ll clue in one day and something that I said all these years will resonate.  And if it doesn’t, I can hold my head high and say that I did my job and I did my best.  Sure, I got mad when she was disrespectful and refused to listen, but I’m human and I care.  No parent is perfect and I can’t hold myself to those impossible standards just because I’m in pain.  I’ll just have to keep communicating with her and figure out a way forward.

Again, folks, thank you.  This site is awesome in more ways than one.  (I’ll still check in for any other responses.  There’s no such thing as too much advice, at least in my opinion!)

Edited December 24, 2018 by SuzyRhapsody

[BookWoman56]

2 hours ago, SuzyRhapsody said:

My home sale is final this Thursday.  It’s the fulfillment of a lifelong dream and one that I couldn’t fulfill when she was in school because I didn’t want to force her to change schools.  Everything I did all those years was with her and her future in mind and I’m trying to come to grips with the fact that she doesn’t necessarily have to appreciate it or adhere to it.  It’s enough that I did it. 

If I can offer a somewhat different perspective, maybe this will help. When I was roughly your daughter's age, my mother would periodically bitch and moan about how hard she had worked to enable our family to move into a much nicer house, with much nicer furniture, etc., than she had while she was growing up. Understand, I was pretty much an ideal daughter at that point, at least as far as she knew; straight A student in high school, graduated early so I could start college early, awards and crap throughout school, never in any trouble, etc. I was sexually active with my BF, but we'd been together for 3-4 years, so I wasn't hanging out with random significantly older guys, but in any event my mother was unaware of the intimacy, and my basic feeling then was what she didn't know wouldn't hurt her. My father made good money as a small business owner, but her income enabled them to afford things that would otherwise have been out of reach.  I appreciated the fact that she did work hard, but she just sometimes would not shut up about it, and I felt like she was trying to make me feel guilty for a path she had chosen that I had no input into. And there came a day when I had to say, "Look, I never asked you to do this; I would have been fine with a less expensive house, etc. If you've worked so hard to get the nice house, furniture, cars, clothes, etc., you should have done it because you wanted those things for yourself, not because you wanted it only for me and my siblings."

I wasn't trying to hurt her feelings or not show any appreciation for what she had done, but at the same time, it annoyed that she seemed to feel compelled to always couch the lifestyle that she and my father had provided as being only for our benefit, not for theirs. In your situation, I understand that you've done all these things with your daughter's future in mind, but things like buying your own house should be done not just for some hypothetical future version of your daughter, but for your very real self right now. Not saying this is the case with you and your daughter, but for me, I got tired of being guilt-tripped to constantly express appreciation for things that I'd never asked for. My mother simply kept dropping that anvil on my head to the point that I began to feel resentment about the lifestyle, which again was not my choice, and I simply wanted her to own the fact that while providing a nice home for us was part of her motivation, she wanted those things for herself as well. 

[VioletNevermind]

45 minutes ago, BookWoman56 said:

If I can offer a somewhat different perspective, maybe this will help. When I was roughly your daughter's age, my mother would periodically bitch and moan about how hard she had worked to enable our family to move into a much nicer house, with much nicer furniture, etc., than she had while she was growing up. Understand, I was pretty much an ideal daughter at that point, at least as far as she knew; straight A student in high school, graduated early so I could start college early, awards and crap throughout school, never in any trouble, etc. I was sexually active with my BF, but we'd been together for 3-4 years, so I wasn't hanging out with random significantly older guys, but in any event my mother was unaware of the intimacy, and my basic feeling then was what she didn't know wouldn't hurt her. My father made good money as a small business owner, but her income enabled them to afford things that would otherwise have been out of reach.  I appreciated the fact that she did work hard, but she just sometimes would not shut up about it, and I felt like she was trying to make me feel guilty for a path she had chosen that I had no input into. And there came a day when I had to say, "Look, I never asked you to do this; I would have been fine with a less expensive house, etc. If you've worked so hard to get the nice house, furniture, cars, clothes, etc., you should have done it because you wanted those things for yourself, not because you wanted it only for me and my siblings."

I wasn't trying to hurt her feelings or not show any appreciation for what she had done, but at the same time, it annoyed that she seemed to feel compelled to always couch the lifestyle that she and my father had provided as being only for our benefit, not for theirs. In your situation, I understand that you've done all these things with your daughter's future in mind, but things like buying your own house should be done not just for some hypothetical future version of your daughter, but for your very real self right now. Not saying this is the case with you and your daughter, but for me, I got tired of being guilt-tripped to constantly express appreciation for things that I'd never asked for. My mother simply kept dropping that anvil on my head to the point that I began to feel resentment about the lifestyle, which again was not my choice, and I simply wanted her to own the fact that while providing a nice home for us was part of her motivation, she wanted those things for herself as well. 

I hear what you’re saying.  It sounds like you were a lot more responsible at my daughter’s age than she is.  I’m hoping that will change, but it’s not looking good at the moment.  The more time that passes, the more I realize that she never wanted the (very modest) lifestyle I attempted to push on her.  She’s not academic-minded right now and I’m the last person to see it.   It wouldn’t be so bad if not for the fact that she doesn’t want to work either.   As for where she lives, I can’t help thinking that I should have sent her to her father’s myself when her attitude and the disrespect became particularly horrible.   At 18, she’s only out for what’s going to be fun in this very moment.  There is no planning for the future at all.   As others have said, there’s nothing I can do about it at this point.   I just have to keep the lines of communication open and as judgment-free as humanly possible.   She wants what she wants right now.  Life will teach her in short order that the things that you want don’t fall into your lap with zero effort.

Edited December 24, 2018 by SuzyRhapsody

[DeLurker]

7 hours ago, SuzyRhapsody said:

I just have to keep the lines of communication open and as judgment-free as humanly possible.

I think that the advice to let her go (so to speak) is best course of action for now - she is the one making the choices and she is at the age where she needs to start dealing with the consequences of them too.  It has to be hard to do, but it sounds as if you've been tied up in knots over this for some time.

Perhaps not right away, but maybe see about setting up a regular lunch or dinner to stay in communication with her.  Somewhere neutral.  Don't allow yourself to get too pulled into the events of her life as a parent.  Keep the discussions on the shallow level for now and if she starts to open up with you, hold off on commenting with any real depth for now.  You'll probably need to practice your poker face and wrestle your own maternal instincts into submission.

On 12/22/2018 at 6:04 PM, SuzyRhapsody said:

my ex-husband left our home when she was only 8-months-old. He was physically and emotionally abusive, arrogant, and entitled.

In retrospect and from an emotionally distant place, is she (or has she been) emotionally manipulative of you?  I know we don't like to apply these terms to our children, but I think it is a factor that needs to be recognized if it is there.  Not saying "you're just like your dad!", but if someone is trying to hold you emotionally hostage I think there is no problem with calling them out on it*.

Congrats on the new home - that is an exciting event for you!  It may not be happening the way you envisioned, but maybe that is for the good.  It will be "your" home - you get to take all the joy and responsibility that come with it.  Allow it to reflect your future and the be the place where you feel safe and comfortable.

It sounds cold to say it isn't your daughter's home and when she come she'll be visiting as a guest.  One that you are allowing into your home/life .

Tonight is Christmas Eve, as if you didn't know.  Please don't spend it feeling tortured.  Spend it thinking about how far you've come in your life in the last 18 years - from someone who was young, scared and raw to someone who has worked through many of life's hardships and is just about to close on your own home.   Allow yourself to imagine your future - it has a house and yard, does it have a vegetable garden?  a pet?  etc...

* I too was in an emotionally abusive marriage that ultimately turned physical.  At this point, I am more than likely to tell someone that "I don't negotiate with terrorist, emotional or otherwise."

[Mindthinkr]

I am sitting here alone on Christmas Eve. My brother just called to ask why I hadn’t shown up for dinner at his house. He forgot to invite me. I’m such an afterthought in my family. Going to love on my cats now.