Family Ties: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

[theredhead77]

I decided awhile ago not to go back for Thanksgiving because 3 / 4 weeks later I go back for Hanukkah. I literally just told my mom my December visit was only going to be 3 nights (including one with friends) and she got upset. I told her I don't like sitting around the house and she asked what to wanted to do. There is nothing to do with them besides go out for dinner or shopping with my mom or watch whatever TV show they're watching. This is what we did during my childhood vacations to my. Grandparents but this is not my idea of vacation.

Edited October 15, 2018 by theredhead77
spelling and spaces

[ratgirlagogo]

6 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

My dad and his hyper-focus on TV has been an issue for years.

Does he know about PreviouslyTV? (sorry, couldn't resist)   That does sound awful, good for you for figuring out a way to deal with it.

[theredhead77]

I booked my December flight home - I fly in on a Thurs (land around 1pm) and out on Sunday (dept around 11am). I plan to have after dinner plans on Friday and Saturday afternoon / evening plans with friends.

I would book a later flight on Sunday (normally I take the 1:55 flight) but it's not like my mom gets up so we can have breakfast / brunch in the morning). 

We'll see how this trip goes.

[Brookside]

Is it just me, or is it weird that my brother has included my ex's name on the card for the flowers for my mum's funeral?

[walnutqueen]

2 hours ago, Brookside said:

Is it just me, or is it weird that my brother has included my ex's name on the card for the flowers for my mum's funeral?

It's not just you.

Without knowing any details, I'd be inclined to opine that it's a shitty thing to do to a sister.

And I am so sorry for your loss.

[Brookside]

2 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

It's not just you.

Without knowing any details, I'd be inclined to opine that it's a shitty thing to do to a sister.

And I am so sorry for your loss.

Thanks for your message.  I know he would never intentionally be shitty, but it certainly seems thoughtless.  Oh well.  Onwards and upwards.  Now I just have to brace myself for the reading I've chosen to do.  At the moment I can't get through it in the privacy of my own room.

[Mindthinkr]

5 hours ago, Brookside said:

Is it just me, or is it weird that my brother has included my ex's name on the card for the flowers for my mum's funeral?

If your ex wanted to send flowers then she should/could have on her own. As an ex she is no longer a full fledged family member. With his grief he might not have been thinking straight, but I would have been upset as well. 

My condolences on your loss. 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Mindthinkr

[Brookside]

1 hour ago, Mindthinkr said:

If your ex wanted to send flowers then she should/could have on her own. As an ex she is no longer a full fledged family member. With his grief he might not have been thinking straight, but I would have been upset as well. 

My condolences on your loss. 

 

Not upset, thankfully, more bemused I suppose.  Thanks again for the support.  It's been said before but it's both strange and wonderful how a site like this can provide such kindness and help amongst perfect strangers.  I can feel better just reading posts between people discussing issues that don't even have any bearing on my own life.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Brookside

[walnutqueen]

2 hours ago, Brookside said:

Thanks for your message.  I know he would never intentionally be shitty, but it certainly seems thoughtless.  Oh well.  Onwards and upwards.  Now I just have to brace myself for the reading I've chosen to do.  At the moment I can't get through it in the privacy of my own room.

 

52 minutes ago, Brookside said:

Not upset, thankfully, more bemused I suppose.  Thanks again for the support.  It's been said before but it's both strange and wonderful how a site like this can provide such kindness and help amongst perfect strangers.  I can feel better just reading posts between people discussing issues that don't even have any bearing on my own life.

I'm approaching the second anniversary of my own Mum's death - hard enough without having a total dickswab of a half brother we both used to love.  Life is complicated, and sometimes internet strangers become fast friends.  I can't articulate a single damned thought to this day, so I cannot imagine the stress of having to do  a reading ...

I hope you find some small comfort in the sincere condolences of your fellow posters.  

[Brookside]

22 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

 

I'm approaching the second anniversary of my own Mum's death - hard enough without having a total dickswab of a half brother we both used to love.  Life is complicated, and sometimes internet strangers become fast friends.  I can't articulate a single damned thought to this day, so I cannot imagine the stress of having to do  a reading ...

I hope you find some small comfort in the sincere condolences of your fellow posters.  

Thank you.  I do find comfort here.  Staying on the schmaltzy side, love and hugs to anyone who needs them.

[walnutqueen]

7 minutes ago, Brookside said:

Thank you.  I do find comfort here.  Staying on the schmaltzy side, love and hugs to anyone who needs them.

My darling Opa used to spread schmaltz on rye bread.  Thanx for the good memories.   :-)

[BookWoman56]

@Brookside, I don't know how long your ex has been an ex, but is it possible that your brother was so used to writing the names of you as a couple that he just wrote your ex's name automatically, without consciously making the decision to do so? Not that this will necessarily make you feel better, but years ago one of my professors related that he'd gone with his GF for a visit to her father's house. Afterward, he sent a thank-you note inadvertently addressed to the father and the father's former mistress, rather than the father's new wife. He just wasn't focusing on the names.

My condolences on your loss; losing a parent is tough.

[Brookside]

22 minutes ago, BookWoman56 said:

@Brookside, I don't know how long your ex has been an ex, but is it possible that your brother was so used to writing the names of you as a couple that he just wrote your ex's name automatically, without consciously making the decision to do so? Not that this will necessarily make you feel better, but years ago one of my professors related that he'd gone with his GF for a visit to her father's house. Afterward, he sent a thank-you note inadvertently addressed to the father and the father's former mistress, rather than the father's new wife. He just wasn't focusing on the names.

My condolences on your loss; losing a parent is tough.

I'd love this to be a reason, but I have difficulty believing he ever actually wrote our names down when we were together!  Not that he didn't communicate or care, but he was never one for writing personal notes/cards, certainly not after the advent of the Internet, after which point it seems that any need to address recipients or to sign off seems to have gone the way of the dodo.  (Of course, as a Luddite, I still do both.)

Head-scratcher but not anything that's upsetting.  The girlfriend/mistress/wife story certainly is a mood booster!

[Brookside]

53 minutes ago, BookWoman56 said:

My condolences on your loss; losing a parent is tough.

Thank you for this.

[Brookside]

1 hour ago, walnutqueen said:

My darling Opa used to spread schmaltz on rye bread.  Thanx for the good memories.   :-)

Anyone who throws away schmaltz or gribenes doesn't merit a spot at my table, virtual or otherwise.  May your Opa's memory be for a blessing.

[walnutqueen]

6 minutes ago, Brookside said:

Anyone who throws away schmaltz or gribenes doesn't merit a spot at my table, virtual or otherwise.  May your Opa's memory be for a blessing.

I'm beginning to believe we could share a virtual table.  I make a sinful schnitzel ...  :-)

[Brookside]

5 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

I'm beginning to believe we could share a virtual table.  I make a sinful schnitzel ...  :-)

I'll bring my shepherd's pie, it'll bring comfort to anyone.  (Molly Katzen's original veg version upon request, sinfully good too, but a bit labour intensive.)

Edited October 23, 2018 by Brookside

[walnutqueen]

1 hour ago, Brookside said:

I'll bring my shepherd's pie, it'll bring comfort to anyone.  (Molly Katzen's original veg version upon request, sinfully good too, but a bit labour intensive.)

I LURVE shepherd's pie!!!  Hold the veggies (except, of course, green peas) because I'm of German descent, and eat meat & potatoes, eh!

[Brookside]

20 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

I LURVE shepherd's pie!!!  Hold the veggies (except, of course, green peas) because I'm of German descent, and eat meat & potatoes, eh!

I have a friend who won't eat anything green except peas,"because they're red".  Okay then!  The other veggies, other than the "red" ones, will be reserved for the vegetarian version, though I may make you try it because it's delicious!

Edited October 24, 2018 by Brookside

[walnutqueen]

On 10/23/2018 at 11:45 PM, Brookside said:

I have a friend who won't eat anything green except peas,"because they're red".  Okay then!  The other veggies, other than the "red" ones, will be reserved for the vegetarian version, though I may make you try it because it's delicious!

I would love to try your vegetarian version!  Any vegetarian dish that didn't leave me craving meat & potatoes would be SO good for me.  ;-)

[Spunkygal]

On 10/24/2018 at 1:45 AM, Brookside said:

I have a friend who won't eat anything green except peas,"because they're red".  Okay then!  The other veggies, other than the "red" ones, will be reserved for the vegetarian version, though I may make you try it because it's delicious!

Please post the recipe in the Food forum under the I Need a Recipe thread! Thanks!

[Brookside]

Vegetarian shepherd's pie: labour intensive, but delicious.  I believe this is the original version so pretty high fat (Mollie Katzen tweaked a lot of her recipes to reduce the fat), but if you're going to go to the trouble, I say in for a penny, in for a pound (or two).

http://www.recipes.lechasseurs.net/dinner/horn-moon-shepherds-pie

[ShutUpLutz]

So one of my blood relatives had a birthday a couple of years ago, and they continue to have at as they are still alive. Like just about everyone else they have a list of stuff up on Amazon of stuff they either want or will get, as well as several sublists Wish/XMAS/birthday. 

They like Tony Bennett A LOT.

But who doesn't right? They have seen him live about 30 times and even have one of his paintings. Anyway, they had a particular DVD and CD Box set of Bennett's on ALL their lists, so I got it for their birthday and of course they oohed and ahhed and hugged me and said BEST PRESENT EVER!!! and I got to have a piece of cake with NO CORNERS AND lick the frosting off the candles.

And they have never unwrapped and watched or listened to them, they just sit there on the shelf WITH THE PLASTIC WRAP STILL ON THEM. 

Now, would i be that upset if they had taken them to our local independent record chain and traded them in? 

FUCK NO.

Okay, that's not entirely true. I would be a little pissed off as to why they had these things on their wish list if they weren't even going to listen/watch them. It's more that they haven't even been un-plastic wrapped. And no, it's not the kind of thing I can just bring up.

[DeLurker]

Maybe they just want to have it to complete their collection of all things Tony Bennett?  Or maybe are treating it like a collector's item where being pristine in the original shrink wrap is going to preserve the value?

[theredhead77]

1 hour ago, DeLurker said:

Maybe they just want to have it to complete their collection of all things Tony Bennett?  

That's my thinking on it. I have a friend with a music collection from their favorite artist, many of the items are unopened and on display. I'd be upset if the item wasn't on display knowing it was still wrapped and unused.

[DeLurker]

@ShutUpLutz - whether it is a collector thing or not, it does seem a bit off to me to put this on the list(s) if other people don't know you are a collector and not just a huge fan.  I think my feelings might be hurt if I thought I was gifting someone something I thought they really really wanted but found out later was more of an investment piece.  Conversely, a collector of comic books might give someone a mint condition something-or-other and then be crushed to find out they took it out of the sleeve to read.

[ShutUpLutz]

12 hours ago, DeLurker said:

Maybe they just want to have it to complete their collection of all things Tony Bennett?  Or maybe are treating it like a collector's item where being pristine in the original shrink wrap is going to preserve the value?

 

11 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

That's my thinking on it. I have a friend with a music collection from their favorite artist, many of the items are unopened and on display. I'd be upset if the item wasn't on display knowing it was still wrapped and unused.

 

9 hours ago, DeLurker said:

@ShutUpLutz - whether it is a collector thing or not, it does seem a bit off to me to put this on the list(s) if other people don't know you are a collector and not just a huge fan.  I think my feelings might be hurt if I thought I was gifting someone something I thought they really really wanted but found out later was more of an investment piece.  Conversely, a collector of comic books might give someone a mint condition something-or-other and then be crushed to find out they took it out of the sleeve to read.

They aren't a collector of Bennett's stuff, they just love his music. I guess I should have put in that they have had various Bennett CD's on their various lists and I and others have gotten them over the years, but all of those items have been opened and unshrink wrapped and listened to. I don't know it's just something that I always notice whenever I go to see them.

It's like people who say that they are going to watch or read (popcuture touchstone book or movie that EVERYONE else has seen at least once) but they just don't have the time, despite apparently having ten hours a week taking selfies. Annoying as hell? INDEED YOU ARE.

[Scatterbrained]

My ILs are difficult people who enjoy being difficult.  MIL is particularly nasty towards me.  Always has been, always will be.  She’s a very passive-aggressive narcissist.  Recently, they did us a favor by coming to town and watching the kids so we could attend an important meeting at school.  It was a brief visit, and I thought it went well.  I was surprised by how well it went.  Time passes and DD (who very much looks up to her Grandma) declares that “trash is not toys”.

 :(

 

i let the kids used rinsed out water, shampoo, and bubble bath bottles, and washed pudding and yogurt containers for bathtub water play.  We recycle them after a while.  I used to wash purchased tub toys in the dishwasher from time to time, but the current dwelling dishwasher is crappy.  Anyway, apparently this equates to me allowing my children to play with garbage.  Those poor kids.  I’m such a bad mom.  SMH!!!

Edited November 4, 2018 by Scatterbrained

[DeLurker]

@Scatterbrained - ugh!  I'm sorry.  There's nothing that can be done about your ILs - they are who they are, but your daughter is being raised in a household where those ideas and attitudes don't prevail.  You don't say how old she is, but if she is old enough to make declarative statements like that she is also old enough to have talks with about reusing/recycling, limiting purchase of things bad for the environment (directly or indirectly) and about being aware that her words* matter.  I'm not saying sit her down for a good talkin' to, but having a discussion about the values and concerns of your household.

It must be hard to hear your daughter sound like a mini MIL, but hopefully there is a lot of love for your children intermixed with that less than pleasant aspect of her personality.  In the long run, you and your husband have much more influence over your children's attitude and outlook.  Tell yourself "It is just a phase".

*What she says and how she says things.

[walnutqueen]

13 minutes ago, Scatterbrained said:

My ILs are difficult people who enjoy being difficult.  MIL is particularly nasty towards me.  Always has been, always will be.  She’s a very passive-aggressive narcissist.  Recently, they did us a favor by coming to town and watching the kids so we could attend an important meeting at school.  It was a brief visit, and I thought it went well.  I was surprised by how well it went.  Time passes and DD (who very much looks up to her Grandma) declares that “trash is not toys”.

 :(

 

i let the kids used rinsed out water, shampoo, and bubble bath bottles, and washed pudding and yogurt containers for bathtub water play.  We recycle them after a while.  I used to wash purchased tub toys in the dishwasher from time to time, but the current dwelling dishwasher is crappy.  Anyway, apparently this equates to me allowing my children to play with garbage.  Those poor kids.  I’m such a bad mom.  SMH!!!

Ridiculous.  MIL should be reminded that children used to play with pots & pans and wooden spoons.  Any "toys" they had were hand made; usually out of used household scraps.  Kids were regularly allowed to play in the the dirt.  They often died of diseases we now can immunize them for - polio, measles, mumps, etc.  Thanks to paranoid parents/grandparents, they are now so sanitized that they've acquired a host of "new" allergies & ailments, and have become frail little ghosts of their former hardy stock.

Also, any MIL who would try to indoctrinate my kids would not be welcome to continue this passive aggressive approach in my household, and would be told so (preferably by her darling son).  ;-)

[Scatterbrained]

3 minutes ago, DeLurker said:

@Scatterbrained - ugh!  I'm sorry.  There's nothing that can be done about your ILs - they are who they are, but your daughter is being raised in a household where those ideas and attitudes don't prevail.  You don't say how old she is, but if she is old enough to make declarative statements like that she is also old enough to have talks with about reusing/recycling, limiting purchase of things bad for the environment (directly or indirectly) and about being aware that her words* matter.  I'm not saying sit her down for a good talkin' to, but having a discussion about the values and concerns of your household.

It must be hard to hear your daughter sound like a mini MIL, but hopefully there is a lot of love for your children intermixed with that less than pleasant aspect of her personality.  In the long run, you and your husband have much more influence over your children's attitude and outlook.  Tell yourself "It is just a phase".

*What she says and how she says things.

Thanks, DeLurker.  DD is only 3.  She is parroting what she heard, and acting upon it by throwing the items in the recycling.  Of course, we are back to using similar items for water toys because pretent play in the tub is so important. I think it bothers more that MIL had a moment to be an unbridled influence and, because she adores MIL, DD happily parroted what she heard.

 

Next up, building a village in the new place to deny the ILs the opportunities to do this again.

Thanks, Walnut Queen!  I agree with you.

[Blergh]

30 minutes ago, Scatterbrained said:

My ILs are difficult people who enjoy being difficult.  MIL is particularly nasty towards me.  Always has been, always will be.  She’s a very passive-aggressive narcissist.  Recently, they did us a favor by coming to town and watching the kids so we could attend an important meeting at school.  It was a brief visit, and I thought it went well.  I was surprised by how well it went.  Time passes and DD (who very much looks up to her Grandma) declares that “trash is not toys”.

 :(

 

i let the kids used rinsed out water, shampoo, and bubble bath bottles, and washed pudding and yogurt containers for bathtub water play.  We recycle them after a while.  I used to wash purchased tub toys in the dishwasher from time to time, but the current dwelling dishwasher is crappy.  Anyway, apparently this equates to me allowing my children to play with garbage.  Those poor kids.  I’m such a bad mom.  SMH!!!

 Remember- when one has folks who do NOT respect one's rules or boundaries babysit one's kids, one ALWAYS winds up paying a price- regardless of whether the rate is technically 'free'. 

[Scatterbrained]

10 hours ago, Blergh said:

 Remember- when one has folks who do NOT respect one's rules or boundaries babysit one's kids, one ALWAYS winds up paying a price- regardless of whether the rate is technically 'free'. 

True.  Although we’ve given them a lot of money for their life expenses.  So, we just paid in all the ways!  SIGH!

Again, I need to build a support system here so they can stay FAR AWAY!

[walnutqueen]

8 minutes ago, Scatterbrained said:

True.  Although we’ve given them a lot of money for their life expenses.  So, we just paid in all the ways!  SIGH!

Again, I need to build a support system here so they can stay FAR AWAY!

Family dynamics can be toxic, and can fuck up a childhood faster than any other "outside influence".  Take it from one who knows a little sumpthin about a little sumpthin.  

We are pulled in many directions in our lives, what with duty and obligation and all that happy horseshit.  Let us remember that we are here to protect and nurture the children.

[DeLurker]

File this under Family Oddities: 

I live near my brother and two of his kids have their own homes.  We tend to check with each other on bigger purchase but infrequently used items so we don't have to rent them or hire someone to do things we can do ourselves.  So I have a carpet cleaner if they need to use it, my brother has an electric pressure washer, various yard & power tools are lent between family members....

So recently my brother lent his pressure washer to both of his kids because one was selling their house and spiffing things up and the other just bought a house and needed to spiff things up.  I just asked if I could borrow it this past weekend and picked it up from his house.  Reading over the manual online (because it has been a while since I used it last and wanted to make sure I did things correctly), I find there is a concrete floor cleaning attachment that for $30 so I ponder the wisdom of buying that since I have to do my driveway, walkway & back patio. 

I decide to double check with my brother before I run off to Home Depot and it turns out he already owns it.  But did not tell me nor his kids when he lent out the pressure washer despite knowing they were doing all the hard surfaces at their respective houses.

I'm sure there is some long, complicated reason* why he did not tell anyone he owned it and it would save them lots of time since he knew what we were using the pressure washer for.

*He always overthinks things and has a hard time with the "Keep It Simple Stupid" concept.

[PRgal]

On 11/4/2018 at 10:23 AM, walnutqueen said:

Ridiculous.  MIL should be reminded that children used to play with pots & pans and wooden spoons.  Any "toys" they had were hand made; usually out of used household scraps.  Kids were regularly allowed to play in the the dirt.  They often died of diseases we now can immunize them for - polio, measles, mumps, etc.  Thanks to paranoid parents/grandparents, they are now so sanitized that they've acquired a host of "new" allergies & ailments, and have become frail little ghosts of their former hardy stock.

Also, any MIL who would try to indoctrinate my kids would not be welcome to continue this passive aggressive approach in my household, and would be told so (preferably by her darling son).  ;-)

I agree.  My mom used to wash out old food containers for me when I was little - it was cool, since I felt like I was playing "kitchen" with REAL products rather than those fake ones (which I ALSO had).  It was fun!  I totally intend to do this for PRjunior!

[hoosier80]

Well today was a crapfest.   I knew that my brother wouldn't show up.  He's been "sick" for over a week.  He listed excuse after excuse why he didn't go to doctor - finally saying he was on vacation.  Stupid wabbit - I got onto the online appointments.  Yeah, he was booked, but his associates and urgent care/walk in clinics associated with the whole medical group had multiple appointments available (his excuse was well if I go somewhere else they won't have my records).  Uh, yeah they will - even said something like that online.  So then magically, he got into a doctor last evening, but just couldn't come the 1.5 miles.  He and Mom talked on the phone for over an hour.  And he was actively talking a LOT.  So, I may be totally wrong, but I call BS.  He just wanted to stay away, which I get.  Believe me, I get it.

I got here on Sunday.  Mom was all hot about getting some carryout food, had a coupon (it was for almost half off).  I came into the house, unloaded my stuff and said well what do you want, where is the coupon?  Her hearing is GONE, so I had to repeat it like 3x, finally to the point of almost yelling.  I have to over enunciate, which then she gets mad.  She will not go to get her hearing checked, it's always just a wax build up - except it is not.  So I had to drive across town for the damned food, as location 1 didn't have what she wanted.  Then I'd said well I'll take you out to your favorite breakfast place.  Nope.  We have to go to the grocery.  Ok, so why not go to breakfast first?  Because they will be out of everything!  I've got nothing for Thanksgiving.  Of course, every store had more than enough.

Then she decided she wanted to go out to eat the next day.  Fine.  I don't care.  Except she stays up all hours, then gets up late, then complains about the late starts.  Hmmmm 

She says she cannot grip or grab things due to bad shoulders and fingers/hands.  Shoulders are shot, only remedy would be surgery, which her doctor did not advise.  The hands/fingers is newer, but she refuses to have it checked out (either circulatory or nerve damage).  I've said I'll take you in for a visit, but no.  She expects me to find something on my 'computer'.  I've said again and again, I'm not a doctor.  She then gets mad.   So yesterday, we make the dressing for today.  I said well I've got it to here, do you want me to do xxxx?  NO.  I NEED TO DO IT.  Wait - I thought you couldn't grab anything.  She was doing a lot for a couple of hours, not sure what exactly, but definitely using her hands.  Then the broth/rue was cooking for hours and she asked me do you think it's cooked enough?  Yeah.  I had to keep adding water/chicken broth so it wouldn't burn.  

Today, she was on pins and needles re: brother.  He didn't even bother to call to say no, I'm not coming.  "Should I call him?"  I said you'd be calling me.  "Well, if I knew you were coming and not here, I'd call because I'd be worried".  No, she's called me yelling asking if I've left yet, am I coming.  She tiptoes around him where I get dealt with a sledgehammer.  So, I did everything for the meal.  I had place settings out, food cooking, then I quietly put the one place setting away as soon as I heard her side of the phone call (she did call him).  I walked on eggshells so as not to set her off.  Cooked the meats using the appliances she wanted (air fryer and a Ninja oven).  Later I was told the meat was dry.  Yeah I wanted to do it differently, but you said no.   She then tells me that we need to make that 'old casserole' we used to do (I still have done it many times) to use up the meat.  I'd brought stuff to do a special meal for her as she was complaining how she never gets to eat that any more.  I lost it and said well I bought all of that stuff, now you don't want it?  Crying/pouting commenced, and is going on now.  Honestly, whatever.  

Tomorrow will be bad as I have to put up every Christmas decoration East of the Mississippi for her (maybe not that much but it's a lot for a small house).  I just never do it 'right' and get "don't you know how to do ANYTHING?"   Brother will not be around all weekend, so he gets out of doing all this crap.  He will have to take it all down as I have to work on New Years (well sort of  - but not saying anything to the contrary).  I've heard complaints about how he puts stuff away, 'just like he doesn't care'.  He doesn't.  Trust me.  He does not care.  You get worn down, as it is never, ever enough.  I came here on Sunday in the best mood, and it was gone within 15 minutes.  

Thanks for letting me vent, and I hope you all had a wonderful Thanksgiving.  

wrot wroh - a cough from Mom in her bedroom - ……...wish me luck

[BuyMoreAndSave]

@hoosier80

Have you looked into the concept of "structured contact" and the "grey rock" technique? It might help in that situation.

****

Do you ever know people who just refuse to help themselves? That's kind of how my family is. Like my brother just has constant bad things happening all the time and he's 30 and I'm tired of having to deal with his problems and how he is so negative all the time and doesn't try any solutions to his problems. Like he is poor because he's a high school dropout (because he stopped going to school in the 9th grade and would sneak out ASAP after my mom dropped him off, no matter how much she tried to get him to stay in school). So he only gets hired for low-wage jobs and even working multiple jobs he can't pay the bills.

The logical thing would be to get a GED which would open a lot more doors. But no, he won't even TRY because he says he's too bad at math to pass the math section. My MIL, who has a computer science degree (so, advanced math background) and has tutored lots of people in math with great results (like going from an F to an A in one semester), offered to tutor him FOR FREE. Hiring a tutor would be pretty expensive so this is a great opportunity. Nope. He refuses to give it a try at all, not even for an hour of his life. It's one thing to try and not succeed but to not even try when there's nothing to lose just makes me think, does he actually LIKE being miserable and not trying to better himself?

Then the other thing to do would be to go on welfare and at least get food stamps or something. I mean if you're working full-time or more than full-time and still at or near poverty level, people generally apply for government aid. Nope. Won't do it because he has "too much pride to take handouts." Like first of all it's not handouts because corporations don't pay people a living wage. It would be a handout if he wasn't working but if you're working full-time you should be able to pay the bills. And second of all it really pisses me off that he is constantly complaining about going broke, causing us all a lot of stress, and he won't even explore all the options because of something as stupid as pride. He also doesn't generally accept money from me or anyone else, although obviously I wouldn't be able to give him a steady income stream.

Then there's his apartment. He has a one-bedroom apartment and the rent takes up most of his paycheck. If you're poor, especially if you're young, you should be living in a single room of a shared apartment with roommates because it saves a significant amount of money. It's just what people do in the NYC area. Pretty much everyone I know who is under the age of 40 and is not married, lives with roommates, including people who make many times his salary. I've even known people over age 40 and married people who had roommates. My husband and I lived together in a tiny 10x10 foot room in an apartment with an illegal amount of people for a year, and even now we live with my MIL (due to her disability and not financial reasons, but still it's collectively several hundred dollars a month cheaper than if we had separate apartments). Yet if I mention it he makes up a bunch of reasons why he can't do it. The real reason is probably because he has hoarder tendencies and doesn't want to potentially have to get rid of a lot of his furniture and belongings, most of which were inherited from relatives so he's sentimental about them, but if it's between that and homelessness it's a really stupid reason. He could have been saving hundreds of dollars per month for years had he been living with roommates.

And that's not even getting into his steady stream of abusive relationships with personality disordered women, or all the crises he got into back when he was drinking (to his credit he did get sober this year and start going to therapy but only because he became agoraphobic and he can't drink with the medication he's taking). To make things worse he's one of those people who never believes he is wrong and doesn't take criticism.

I'm just dreading the day when he ends up homeless when it was mostly avoidable and either kills himself or expects us to figure out some kind of solution. Just like my dad expected us to figure out a solution when he was homeless years ago, also due to massive career and financial mismanagement (at least my dad was fine with getting government handouts which is the only reason why he isn't still living in his car to this day). Meanwhile neither of them have really been there for me in any significant way in many years. I have had plenty of problems too, I have overcome some of them and still working on others. My mom was abusive and violent and my dad didn't protect us from her and eventually abandoned us, so that's why we have so many issues. But when I already have my own problems I really don't want to deal with someone else's especially when I keep giving the same advice and it keeps not getting taken.

[DeLurker]

8 hours ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

Have you looked into the concept of "structured contact" and the "grey rock" technique? It might help in that situation.

I had never heard of either of these techniques.  Can you link me to a good resource covering structured contact?

I found this piece on Grey Rock and it was overly familiar.  Turns out to be something I did to an extent when I was married to my ex.  I've got mixed feelings about it though - I did it as a method of self-preservation so it was more instinctual.  Perhaps if it were a more conscious and deliberate effort, it wouldn't feel so much like a defeat.

@hoosier80 - was your Mom always such a challenging personality?  Are there community groups or activities she is involved in?  The visits to see her seem to drain so much out of you - I'm really sorry.

[hoosier80]

Yes, always challenging.  When she was able to do more for herself, it was better.  She was in charge, and loved it  But she's always done the major ups and downs, pouting when angry.  One example, she went to the neighborhood association meeting.  It had just started up, and she was grumbling, we've been here for 20 years and didn't have one, why now?  Everyone else thought it was a good idea or was willing to give it a try.  So she came back, breathing fire.  It was summertime, so we had every window and door open (never used air conditioning as we had to "conserve electricity, don't run up that light bill!").  Neighbors were walking home, and she was unhappy that everyone voted to have the best streetlights installed.  None of the options were expensive when spread out per home in the association.  She kept ranting about why they couldn't be happy with the free ones (they were ugly, really ugly).  She was yelling and slamming doors.  One person walking by - I was in the dark in my bedroom wishing I could disappear - said 'oh my goodness' and shook her head.  Of course, my brother and I tried to placate her, to get her back from her rage.  Bad move, as she then would attack us, like we were 'on their side'.  Ironically, years later, she said how nice the street lights looked, how they improved the neighborhood.  I said but you didn't want them.  Oh, but she did, according to her.

The golden child called today, and oh so nice while on the phone.  Meltdown after she hung up.  Now she says she never complains, but it's complaining all the time.  Golden child is still not feeling up to par.  She ranted, saying no one asks how I feel, I have plenty wrong, etc., etc.  I told her to say that to him, not to me - which fell on deaf ears.

I got the freaking tree up and she decided to cut back on one item that is half broken and was a real pain in the ass to put up.  Yay.  I still have a few things left to do, but here's hoping it can stay on a somewhat even keel until I leave on Sunday.  I was watching some news show, but no, it got switched to a kiddy type Christmas show.  The kicker - she's fast asleep in her easy chair.

I'm in the homestretch.  I keep thinking, stay silent, and just plod along.  Never thought I'd be excited to be off vacation, but yes I am.  This is not a vacation, though.

[BuyMoreAndSave]

On 11/23/2018 at 10:52 AM, DeLurker said:

I had never heard of either of these techniques.  Can you link me to a good resource covering structured contact?

I found this piece on Grey Rock and it was overly familiar.  Turns out to be something I did to an extent when I was married to my ex.  I've got mixed feelings about it though - I did it as a method of self-preservation so it was more instinctual.  Perhaps if it were a more conscious and deliberate effort, it wouldn't feel so much like a defeat.

@hoosier80 - was your Mom always such a challenging personality?  Are there community groups or activities she is involved in?  The visits to see her seem to drain so much out of you - I'm really sorry.

I'm not sure since I heard about it on an online forum but it's similar to the concept of setting boundaries. Basically you just don't allow your boundaries to be crossed and if they are crossed, you calmly leave and ignore their protestations about it, and you're not emotionally involved in their attempts to guilt you. You also change the subject whenever things come up that they can criticize you on, or anything like that. The point is that you train them to figure out that you aren't going to accept or enable their abuse. And either they will become disinterested in you and you can free yourself, or they will stop acting that way around you because they know you will not allow them.

23 hours ago, hoosier80 said:

Yes, always challenging.  When she was able to do more for herself, it was better.  She was in charge, and loved it  But she's always done the major ups and downs, pouting when angry.  One example, she went to the neighborhood association meeting.  It had just started up, and she was grumbling, we've been here for 20 years and didn't have one, why now?  Everyone else thought it was a good idea or was willing to give it a try.  So she came back, breathing fire.  It was summertime, so we had every window and door open (never used air conditioning as we had to "conserve electricity, don't run up that light bill!").  Neighbors were walking home, and she was unhappy that everyone voted to have the best streetlights installed.  None of the options were expensive when spread out per home in the association.  She kept ranting about why they couldn't be happy with the free ones (they were ugly, really ugly).  She was yelling and slamming doors.  One person walking by - I was in the dark in my bedroom wishing I could disappear - said 'oh my goodness' and shook her head.  Of course, my brother and I tried to placate her, to get her back from her rage.  Bad move, as she then would attack us, like we were 'on their side'.  Ironically, years later, she said how nice the street lights looked, how they improved the neighborhood.  I said but you didn't want them.  Oh, but she did, according to her.

The golden child called today, and oh so nice while on the phone.  Meltdown after she hung up.  Now she says she never complains, but it's complaining all the time.  Golden child is still not feeling up to par.  She ranted, saying no one asks how I feel, I have plenty wrong, etc., etc.  I told her to say that to him, not to me - which fell on deaf ears.

I got the freaking tree up and she decided to cut back on one item that is half broken and was a real pain in the ass to put up.  Yay.  I still have a few things left to do, but here's hoping it can stay on a somewhat even keel until I leave on Sunday.  I was watching some news show, but no, it got switched to a kiddy type Christmas show.  The kicker - she's fast asleep in her easy chair.

I'm in the homestretch.  I keep thinking, stay silent, and just plod along.  Never thought I'd be excited to be off vacation, but yes I am.  This is not a vacation, though.

My mom was like this except also physically violent and I cut off contact with her and haven't talked to her in over three years. I have absolutely no regrets. I have become a better person since cutting her off and my depression which had lasted for eight years went away very soon afterwards. I still have anxiety, OCD, PTSD, and no self-esteem, but it's a process.

She still refuses to acknowledge that she ever did anything wrong. She thinks that we were the abusers and she was the victim. According to her she was victimized and then victim-blamed by absolutely everyone in her life for seemingly no reason -- her parents, her brother, my dad, my brother, me, our neighbors, previous coworkers and bosses, etc. Meanwhile she was so violent that she sent members of our family to the hospital on multiple occasions and our neighbors would yell "dysfunctional family!" at us in the street and call the cops and leave anonymous shaming letters in our mailbox about the loud arguments she would have, and we were investigated by CPS on multiple occasions (which she claimed was "the nanny state trying to destroy the family unit and turn the US into a police state"). Meanwhile she literally tried to murder me when I was 9 by suffocating me to death and only stopped because my brother got her to turn her rage on him. Meanwhile she called us monsters and blood-sucking parasites, and said that we ruined her life by existing, regularly from the time we were toddlers. But sure, she was the real victim.

To this day she tells my brother that I'm a sociopath who used her to pay for college and then stopped talking to her when she was no longer of use. Even though I never wanted to go to that college, I got into two other good colleges with full scholarships, and she forced me to go to that college under threat of being kicked out on the street with no money if I went anywhere else, because it was a fancy school that she could brag about to people and she could project her own failed life goals on me and try to turn me into mini-her. Plus the money wasn't originally hers, it was from my grandpa's inheritance and he told her he wanted her to use it for our education. Also I stopped talking to her a couple of years after graduation and not immediately after, and the timing was because that was when I happened to learn more about abusive families by reading about it online and realized she would never change.

I was her golden child as long as I obeyed her and was a mini-her and gave her things to brag to people about. As soon as I became my own person she started resenting me. Now she hates me so much that my brother said he wasn't even going to tell her he went to my place for Thanksgiving or else she would rant about how horrible I am for hours. She has no sense that she did anything to make this situation happen.

The day I stopped talking to her, she screamed at me for an hour and a half straight until I couldn't take it anymore and noped the fuck out. Do you know why she screamed? Because she took way too many items from my recently deceased grandma's place "for us" and we didn't want to take them all. She knew we had a small car and a small apartment. I told her beforehand multiple times that we already took what we wanted from my grandma's place directly and she didn't have to bring us anything, but she kept insisting that there were all these nice dishes and cookware so I said we'll take some of those if you really insist, but keep in mind we don't have a lot of room. Well she didn't just bring those but also tons of other stuff, some of it large in size, that we didn't ask for, want, or have room for. Not all of it would fit into the car and she threw a fit about "I WANT THIS SHIT OUT OF MY HOUSE TODAY!" and saying that we didn't plan ahead and made her do all this work for nothing and all this other crap. She was screaming so loudly that the walls were vibrating and she was screaming that she hated me and my husband. Finally I told her we were leaving and she physically blocked the door to prevent us from leaving and tried to say that yelling wasn't a big deal and we should just get over it.

When she contacted me again later on all confused about why I was being "so mean to her," I reminded her of what happened, and she actually said she had not yelled at us at all and that we threw a tantrum and decided to leave for no reason! She said that I was the one who abused her because I did yell "You can keep all this shit, we're leaving!" because I lost my patience after being screamed at for an hour and a half for no reason. My husband was there and witnessed it all. I wish he recorded it on his phone so I could have sent it to her and she could hear how horrible she sounds when she goes off. As I said, she wasn't just yelling, she was yelling so loud it was echoing off the walls, and now to say she wasn't yelling at all, just shows how impossible it is for her to admit when she's wrong.

Anyway the point is you can't allow yourself to be held hostage by someone like that. She will never change and she will be just as miserable whether you're there or not. She probably won't even miss you if you stop talking to her. My mom certainly doesn't miss me. She misses having an emotional punching bag and someone to control, and she doesn't like that me not talking to her is evidence that all the abuse allegations were true, but she doesn't miss ME as a person. Don't harm your emotional health by allowing someone to guilt you into taking their abuse.

Edited November 25, 2018 by BuyMoreAndSave

[DeLurker]

On 11/23/2018 at 7:28 PM, hoosier80 said:

I'm in the homestretch.  I keep thinking, stay silent, and just plod along.  Never thought I'd be excited to be off vacation, but yes I am.  This is not a vacation, though.

I'm sorry - it is so disheartening to imagine what growing up in that kind of environment was like and the toll it takes on you.  Is there anyway you can minimize the visit at Christmas?  It really sounds like you need some time off of both work and these visits to your Mom.

@BuyMoreAndSave - hard to believe that you had the internal fortitude to breakaway from this toxic relationship at a relatively early age.  Clearly, based on your details and assessments, it came with a high price and loads of manipulation along the way.  Your last paragraph sounds like the only approach to preserve your own sanity.

[hoosier80]

Christmas will be brief.    I have just the 24th, 25th, and 26th off.  I may not have to work on 1/1 like I have forever, but not saying a peep as she'd expect me there.  The good thing is that with winter, I can say oh the roads are bad, etc., so that cuts way down on visits.

It was actually calm most of yesterday and today.  I swear she lets some cleaning go to hell on purpose, so then when I'm asked to clean it's beyond disgusting.  She kept insisting that her bathroom floor needed cleaned, and if I could look at the guest bathroom, too.  Guest bathroom isn't used much so it was not bad.  She had some new mop contraption, and it didn't work well.  So such a good thing that I brought along my steam mop.  I have my car packed to the brim with food supplies and cleaning supplies because she does not stay stocked (or have up to date tools).  I move along to her bathroom.  She'd said she had prior 'accidents' in not getting to the toilet soon enough or the toilet overflowed.  Now, I've used the guest bath multiple times, never an issue (same toilet brand - she's saying the builder used substandard fixtures, which I don't think so, they're just low pressure toilets).  Anyhow, she said she'd cleaned it.  Not really.  Good thing I have a low gag reflex.  It was AWFUL.  I had the steam mop in back of the commode, as much as possible.  I then grabbed some disinfectant wipes and had to use at least one quarter of the super sized container.  It was spotless when I left it.  Then she crabbed about where I put the used wipes - I keep that bag for ……… whatever it was.  Fine.  I grabbed another bag and, voila, all solved  

I made a nice breakfast, and she said it was good, but the eggs could've been done more.  Da fuq?  She left it until it was almost stone cold - again.  I will tell her, meal is 5 minutes away from being done.  Do what you need to do - bathroom, or get yourself to the table.  Of course, she screws around until the food is cold, then complains.  She wanted to go to the grocery, because golden child is still 'sick'.    I wanted to get there early.  Nope.  I said we won't be there until after noon.  Bingo.  12:30 we left.  "Oh, it shouldn't take long".  One hour.  Then she says as I'm walking the aisles to find something for her, we need to get home or I'm going to poop my pants.  Great.  So, we get checked out as soon as possible (she wanted to chit chat with someone!!), get her home.  I had said I was going to go to two other stores for stuff she wanted - just run in and out.  I got the groceries inside, and then left to get the other stuff.  I'm like I'll be lucky if I get out of here by 5.   I go to the two stores.  One had a checkout line that was a good 30 minute wait, so I bagged it.  Nothing she can't get later, and it was not urgent.  Store two's parking lot was out to the drive.  Hard pass.  It was just to see if they even had what she wanted.  

I get home.  I see her coat on the floor.  Now, this is interesting because she always makes a big to do on how she can't get coat on or off by herself.  But there it was on the floor.  I'd been gone a good 30 to 40 minutes, so I went towards the bedroom.  She's rounding a corner, just fine. I startled her a bit, then she started into blubbering.  No other way to describe it.  I couldn't understand what she said other than 'accident'.  I was like what?   Went from blubbering incoherently to yelling, "you have no sympathy".  I didn't even know what really happened.  She didn't make it to the bathroom.   "I hope it never happens to you", etc.  I said yes, I've had it happen, while driving to YOUR house.  I've puked in my car while DRVING home from work.  So yes, people have accidents.  It's not like you lost a limb or something.  She said oh I cleaned it up.  Right.  I changed into my old clothes, and went into the bathroom.  Now remember, it was spotless.  Was.  I was muttering to myself, did you aim away from the toilet?  She said she'd cleaned the seat - more like smeared it.  Under, over, behind, and the floor.  The smell was bad, too.  She'd left her soiled clothes there, which I removed carefully out of my way.  I was like seriously?  I got it spotless again.  I don't recall a thank you, but do recall a litany of excuses, and saying again, it won't be fun when YOU get older.  Hell, it's not fun now.  I got nauseous so I took a cat nap - Mom was asleep by then in her chair.  So I start packing up all my stuff, and she thinks of more things she needs done. Happens all the time.  I've asked and asked, can you write it down ahead of time, so I'm prepared on what need to be done - that way I can plan and not miss a thing.  "I never had a list when you were a kid, and I got all of my stuff done!!!!"  

I left at 5:45.  It's a four hour drive.  I am dead dog tired.  I did manage a side trip to a new store location, and scored some stuff I've had my eye on for a while.  I then called to say I'm almost home.  Rang forever, then I get a sullen voice.  "Oh, ok.  Be careful."   I said oh you sound like you were asleep.  "No not asleep, just don't feel good".  I said well go to bed and take care of yourself (knowing full well it's the start of a pity party).  "Well, I may not go to bed all day".   My response was well ok then, have a good evening.  Click.  I almost said, you do you, I'm out.  

My house is a mess, and a little chilly (heat was down lower), but even with the mess and work I have to do - putting this stuff away, so glad to be home.    I'm going to read up on some of the suggestions, and thanks for bearing with me as I vented!
"

[DeLurker]

Get some rest - you’ve earned it bigly!

[theredhead77]

It sounds like your mom is in need of a social worker intervention and professional elder care. You can't be expected to continue to live like this, @hoosier80 and your mom is living in an unsafe situation when you are not there.

[Mindthinkr]

@hoosier80 You are a good daughter and she is very lucky to have you in her life. I agree with theredhead that you should look into some kind of assistance for your Mom that Medicare will cover. Is there an inexpensive cleaning service that could go into her house every other week to clean? Don’t feel guilty when she gets upset because you can’t show up to be her whipping boy. You deserve some holiday time off. 

[bilgistic]

I don't even know where to put this, but here goes. Grab a drink; this is a long one. I curse and also say some things that will be construed as "disrespectful" to religion, so if that will bother you, please skip this post. Thanks.

- - - - - - -

My 19-year-old niece, the one who used to do (local) pageants, is getting married next week. She has been dating her fiance since last August-ish. He's 26. My niece lives in Lenoir, NC, which is in the foothills of NC (western NC, but east of the mountains) and her fiance lives just north of Charlotte. So their whole relationship has been sort of long-distance because it's about an hour and 20 minutes' drive between them. He lives with roommates and she has gone to stay with him for several days/nights at a time. She still lives at home with her mom/my youngest sister (39YO), but started college in August. She says she hates it. She has a "weird" roommate. Quel dommage.

She graduated from high school/"early college" in May with an associate's degree. Early college is a program that allows students to go to a high school that partners with a local community college; students attend for five years and graduate high school/early college with their HS diploma and an associate's degree. Then they can go on to a four-year college to get a bachelor's degree in two more years.

She and her boyfriend got engaged this summer before they had been dating a year. First it was, "They are getting married after she graduates." Then it became next summer. Every time something changes, my other sister (40YO, Augusta, 10YO BMX racer niece) and I make bets as to what will change next. After "next summer", my niece began shopping for wedding dresses. I bet my sister there would be a (this) Christmas wedding. Lo and behold, my mother told us at Thanksgiving that I was right, but they're not even making it until Christmas...December 2!

My Lenoir sister called me a few weeks ago to tell me that my niece was depressed--crying and sleeping a lot. My advice was to get her in to see a psychiatrist to see if meds were warranted and also to see a therapist, and that if she got help immediately, she could be on better ground by mid-January when spring semester starts. She wanted to "take a semester off" school. Apparently, she's overwhelmed because she's actually having to work for her grades now versus them coming easy to her in high school. She has scholarships and grants, so very little tuition has to be paid. If she takes off one semester, everything will be held for her, but not past that. She'd have to reapply.

It then became that she had officially decided to take the semester off, with her mother's blessing, and she suddenly feels great now. My sister/her mom barely graduated from high school and has a whole host of her own issues that she can't/won't see past. My mother, my sister and I all struggle with our mental health and to ignore warning signs is so short-sighted. I'm also pretty pissed that my sister only calls me when she needs something (like advice about my niece being depressed) and then doesn't take my advice nor respond for several days to my text asking if she'd gotten my niece in to see a doc.

She and my mom are seriously blinded by the religion angle: "She/he prayed for the other to come into her/his life." Sorry, not sorry, but that doesn't mean shit. My niece has given up the things she used to love--pageants for one thing--and is ALL ABOUT this guy. The fact that he's seven years older than her is a red flag, too. I'm projecting a bit, but I nearly derailed college and my life at 20 for a 29YO man (who was seriously disturbed). I was SO YOUNG and SO STUPID.

Neither my sister nor my niece has told anyone in the family but my mother about the wedding. It's going to be a "small family gathering" at the fiance's parents' house. My other sister thinks my niece is pregnant. I don't know.

Fiance works at Lowe's as a delivery something or another, so he likely makes $11-$13/hour. He has a bachelor's degree. I *think* my niece works part-time in a clothing boutique, which probably pays $10-$12ish. I assume the roommates will be moving out and she will move in or they'll find some place together. She "didn't want to live with him without being married". Well, that's certainly a great reason to get married. She can stay with him for a week at a time but not live with him. OK.

I'm surprised yet not that my sister is all coolio about this. She had my niece when she was 20. She and her terrible ex-husband married soon after my niece was born because she felt they had to. If there's anyone who should be the voice of reason about not marrying young, it should be her. Or my mom, who married at 21 and divorced at 30. She actually said to me, "Well, your aunt married at 17." I said, "Yeah, 60 years ago." Stop condoning this!

I feel like this is a dumpster fire and I'm just helplessly watching it burn. I know my niece won't go back to school. My Augusta sister says the same thing--she left school after one year and never went back. I definitely don't believe that college is for everyone, but you have to do *something*. My niece has said she wants to own her own boutique...so...work her way up in the one she works in now? I don't know. There are ways to make it happen, but quitting school--and job after job (she's had at least half a dozen in three years)--and being a wifey ain't it, and I really do think that's her sole aspiration--just serving her "godly" man, which makes me barf forever.

I picture them having two or three kids in five years and getting divorced because she realized she was too young. I kind of hate that I'm so pessimistic about it, but this whole thing is a clusterfuck. Praying to a magic sky daddy doesn't make everything work out perfectly. The reality is that she is young and naive and I can't help but feel that at 26, her fiance is a tad predatory. She's had ZERO time on her own to discover who SHE is, independent of her mom and sister or this guy. I want to snatch her up and send her on a solo roadtrip across the country.

Ughhhhhhhh

Edited November 26, 2018 by bilgistic

[Bastet]

31 minutes ago, bilgistic said:

I picture them having two or three kids in five years and getting divorced because she realized she was too young. I kind of hate that I'm so pessimistic about it, but this whole thing is a clusterfuck. Praying to a magic sky daddy doesn't make everything work out perfectly. The reality is that she is young and naive and I can't help but feel that at 26, her fiance is a tad predatory. She's had ZERO time on her own to discover who SHE is, independent of her mom and sister or this guy. I want to snatch her up and send her on a solo roadtrip across the country.

Oh, I'm so sorry to read all this, because there's not one aspect of it that's anything but a bad idea, and you are almost certainly spot on in your prediction; fast forward several years, and she's going to be in a tough place.  Not that her life can't ever improve, of course, but she's going to make it a hell of a lot harder.  It's terrible that her own mother thinks it's hunky dory for her barely-in-college, never lived independently, hasn't even started to become who she is, teenage daughter to get married (period, let alone to a 26-year-old [these are among the few ages at which a seven-year age gap matters] she's only been dating a year-plus) -- your niece is turning her whole life over to this guy, and who should be her main voice of reason is silent!  I understand how helpless you feel, and because the fictional Conners (Roseanne and The Conners) are present in my mind these days, I think of Dan, after Becky runs off just shy of 18 and marries Mark, despairing, "She's going to get pregnant, she's going to forget all about school -- this is it!  This is her life!"

I wish there was something you could do or say that would wake your niece up, but odds are she's set on this foolish path but good.  Offering words of wisdom and then standing back and watching this dumpster fire burn is probably how it's going to go for you, and I'm sorry for this extra stress in your life when you least need it. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Bastet

[bilgistic]

Thank you, @Bastet, for validating my feelings and agreeing that this whole thing is a really, really bad idea. I generally feel like my other sister and I are screaming into the void.

[DeLurker]

@bilgistic - sadly it does seem like you are reading the tea leaves pretty well.  The only thing I can think of is telling her that if she needs a sounding board from someone  who loves her, has her interests at heart and who isn’t going to judge (socially or religiously) any hesitancy or even regret, that you’ll be there.