S30: General Discussion

[Way Wes Jr]

Hmm.  This isn't episode specific.  I'm not speculating, and there's a chance some folk are avoiding the Spec thread anyway because it discusses previews...  I guess I'll start a new thread

 

From the past seasons thread:

I'm always somewhat mystified by the extremity of Russell hate but I'm especially flabbergasted that people bailed on his seasons (including HvV, which is one of the best ever!) just because of one of him, but are sticking with this one, where 90% of the cast, to me, makes Russell look like Malcolm (or replace with your beloved character of choice).

 

As one of those Russell bailers, who hasn't yet bailed on this train wreck of a season, I'll take a stab.

 

In our corner of the Internet Survivor Fanbase we seem to enjoy strategy more than the "casual fan," does.  I know I do.  And while we take this season's awful awful people to task for the strategic mistakes they appear to make, they seem to have (collectively,) more ideas of how to play than the average cast (even if those ideas are wrong.)  It is a horrible irony, to be finally given a cast that understand to varying degrees what game they are playing, and then - each week - have yet another one of them outed as a contender for "Worst Cast Member Ever."  I half expect that in the next couple of episodes one of our invisibles (Sierra, Carolyn, or Tyler,) will out themselves as a serial kitten torturer.

 

Let's go through the last eight: (Vaguely ranked in order I'd prefer to see them win.)

Shirin - Has flashes of good gameplay, but a poor social game, (and being too happy to be on Survivor,) more than counteract that.  (I thought she meta-played the letters from home at the auction perfectly, only to have Mike ruin her moment.)  I'm rooting for the underdog revenge angle here.

Mike - Paranoid and playing hyperactively, he has made some good moves, and some horrible ones.  Had has his sexist moments, but has come to both Sierra and Shirin's defense when they were being yelled at.  Not rooting, but would be okay with winning.

Rodney - Of the strategies the editors have deigned to show us, Rodney has been playing the most coherent strategic game.  I don't want him to win, but would grudgingly accept it.

The Invisibles - Do Tyler, Carolyn, and Sierra have more of a strategy than, "I suck the least of your three choices?"  Tyler seems to be observing and tattling, letting others take the heat for his shit-stirring, Carolyn found an idol w/o a clue and seems to be trying to play a mother figure while lying low, and Sierra ... has eyebrows?  I haven't noticed, but I'm not looking that closely.  [Hyperbole alert, as I mentioned in Sierra's thread, she told Jenn directly that she wants to be sitting at FTC with unpleasant people.]  While I will never be able to "forget" this season, if one of these folk win, I'll probably forget who they were over time.  If Natalie wasn't a twinnie, I'd have trouble remembering who won her season - and that was S29!

Dan - He claims to have Survivor knowledge, but we haven't been shown him showing any strategic thought.  About the only good having the extra vote will provide is to (hopefully) make him a target.  I would greet a win by Dan with a healthy, "What?!?"

Will - A recruit whom I doubt watched the DVD's provided to him.  An invisible nothing, who was revealed as a hypocritical ass this week.  I would unleash a series of swearing so foul my children would flee the house if he was to win.  On the plus side, I cannot come up with a F3 or F2 in which he could get enough votes to win.

[peachmangosteen]

The title for this is perfect.

 

I agree with your rankings of desirable winners and your reasoning on each.

 

The problem with Tyler's edit is that while he is being shown doing at least something, as opposed to Carolyn who is shown doing nothing at all, we never get to hear from him why he's doing what he's doing. I guess though the exact same could be said for Sierra. Plus Tyler/Sierra's style of play is not something that's really rootable or fun to watch.

Edited April 24, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[scowl]

Well, um, one thing I was worried about two weeks ago was that this was going to be a conventional Pagong and Mike was going to stroll to a million bucks. Like many viewers, I'm still shocked that he was kicked out of the alliance he seemed to be running without a blindside and would have been voted off if he hadn't won immunity. I even feel a little sorry for him now since he's well aware of his situation unlike say Ami on Vanuatu who pretended that everything was just fine. Any season that has the mighty falling like that is worth watching.

 

Unfortunately this is the season of the goats. Unless a grand puppetmaster appears (Tyler? Sierra?), it's going to be a goat-filled FTC. 

[ProfCrash]

I stopped watching after this episode. I deleted it from my DVR. I'll follow the podcasts and the boards but I cannot justify watching any more. I might return if Rodney, Dan, and Will are voted out in the next three episodes but I do not want to watch the misogyny and abusive bullying behavior.

[Miss Scarlet]

I think it would be great if there was a massive ratings drop after this episode and then Probst finally learns that this is not The. Best. Cast. Ever. and the show learns to cast half-decent human beings.

[scowl]

Everything about Will (that we know about) showed that he was at least a half-decent human being. I can't think of anything that should have tipped Burnett/CBS off that he's a man with self-esteem and bullying issues. At least no obviously delusional people like Phillip Sheppard (twice!) and Brandon Hantz (twice!) got through this time.

[kikaha]

I'm watching this season because it interests me.  It's gone through a number of ebbs and flows.  Rodney looked like a doomed ignoramus for a number of weeks: now he looks like the season's most effective puppeteer, in control even after several of his strategies failed.  I thought Mike might go home first, after his early outbursts at the BC camp... then he seemed to settle into the driver's seat... and now he's an exile, barely holding on by the skin of his teeth. 

 

The NC3 looked like dynamite... then they got pagonged.  T&C keep maneuvering in the shadows... Shirin stumbles along deeper into the game... Will makes some quiet moves that position him well, then blows a whole lot of goodwill by going ballistic on Shirin. 

 

The only nonentities now in the game, for me, are Dan and Sierra.  And even there Dan has an advantage that could have serious implications, and I could see Sierra winning if the F3 had just the right people.

 

While the NC3 (+ Shirin) were my favorites, the others don't strike me as so bad.  The last 3 episodes were the three best so far.  I definitely want to see who wins, and how they get there. 

 

I'm curious to see the ratings this season.  My hunch is that they are not out of line with the past several seasons. 

[KimberStormer]

 

As one of those Russell bailers, who hasn't yet bailed on this train wreck of a season, I'll take a stab.

 

In our corner of the Internet Survivor Fanbase we seem to enjoy strategy more than the "casual fan," does.  I know I do.  And while we take this season's awful awful people to task for the strategic mistakes they appear to make, they seem to have (collectively,) more ideas of how to play than the average cast (even if those ideas are wrong.)  It is a horrible irony, to be finally given a cast that understand to varying degrees what game they are playing, and then - each week - have yet another one of them outed as a contender for "Worst Cast Member Ever."  I half expect that in the next couple of episodes one of our invisibles (Sierra, Carolyn, or Tyler,) will out themselves as a serial kitten torturer.

 

OK, but surely Russell had an idea of how to play the game, and especially in HvV, every single person there did too.  I appreciate this as a "why I keep watching" but it doesn't answer the question of "why stop watching a top 5 season (HvV) just because one guy you don't like is in it, but keep watching a boring season when there are like 5-10 terrible people in it?"

[LadyChatts]

Well, I was continuing to watch because of Joey Amazing and his fantabulous hair.  And Jenn was really fun and cool, and I could just picture the underdogs prevailing like Cook Islands or Marquesas.  This season started off so good, so strong, so exciting.  Even with the predictable Nina boot I figured 'hey, even the best seasons have boring episodes every so often.'  Cagayan, my last favorite season, had some that bored me to sit the full hour through.

 

Why am I still watching?  I don't know if I will be.  I'll watch the finale.  I mainly want to see how those that are left justify why they deserve to win.  Dan and Will, I don't know what they could possibly say other than they were the most out of shape guys there and on the chopping block early on.  Sierra and Carolyn have done absolutely nothing but float.  Carolyn had a few good moves early on, but seems to be a minion of Tyler's.  Mike and Rodney appear to be the only one playing the game and getting the game, but I can't say I'm rooting for either of them.  They would probably have a better argument, but Rodney's temper might cost him.  That could have been foreshadowing when Jeff lambasted the blue boys about it being a social game.  I agree that this is the season of goats.  No one seems to be making moves.  Originally I thought the cast was just too nice and forgiving.  But we don't have any exciting personalities left.  I've said before, what this season is lacking is any good strategy and game play.  We're missing the fun and snarky personalities and the villains you love to hate.  In a time where society is trying to combat bullying and violence against women, this show is taking huge steps back.  As long as people keep watching and talking, we'll probably keep getting casts and moments like this.  I really can't believe Probst hyped this season the way he did, or even the cast has talked about it being 'shit your pants' worthy.  Obviously there are different ways to interpret that, but in this case, it's all bad.

 

In regards to Russell, the only Russell season I bailed on was RI, though that was more due to the producers desperate attempt to give Boston Rob a million.  I enjoyed Samoa and loved HvsV.  HvsV was where my love affair with Russell officially stopped.  There's a guy that didn't get the aspect of this also being a social game.  I'm hoping after Brandon's controversial exit in Caramoan that's the last we see of any Hantz's on this show.   

[Wandering Snark]

This is the first time I've touched base with the boards for this season and I'm glad to see this thread. I've seen every crappy episode of this show no matter how boring or demeaning. But wow, watching this week's eppy was the most uncomfortable I've been watching reality teevee since TAR chose to not edited out or at least warn of the hideousness that was Jonathan abusing his wife Victoria.

 

I don't like Sharin, she's probably on my "worst Survivors' list, but nobody should have to go through what she has on this show and this week may be the last for me.

 

Why watch a cast full of terrible malicious losers fight for a million dollars. Does "It's a game for a million dollars" Really mean that it's okay to do/say anything you want at any time like nobody you are playing against is even afforded the basic niceties of "we're all people" here??

 

It's a question I'm pondering and it's tied directly and more simply by "Why am I Watching This?" I don't really know but I think it will be at least partially answered by my not watching the rest of this season.

[Richness]

While I dislike Jenn, especially with her attitude in her last two episodes, I have to begrudgingly admit her quitter's speech to Jeff applies to my philosophy on this season. I dislike what the game has become, but I'm not a quitter.

 

I may not like the contestants, but I do like the game itself. I may not like that misogynistic Dan got the advantage, but I like the new twist to the advantage. I may not like Will after his vile rant, but I like the twist to the gonzo prize. (And I loved how the previous two twists shook up what has become a stale auction.) I may dislike Mike's voice, but I liked his game play until the Auction episode. I may dislike Roidney's doucebro personality, but I like his imitations and his game play.

 

I completely agree with the first two paragraphs in kikaha's post. It may still be a Pagonging of the smaller alliance, but at least it isn't as straightforward as it has been in the past. Too bad the auction episode made me feel so uncomfortable to watch. Hopefully, they won't all be that bad.

 

With all that being said, I will admit I have abandoned a few shows in mid-season recently, but they've all been scripted. This includes the horribly stupid CSI: Cyber, and the 100. Granted, deleting the 100 episodes off my DVR had more to do with needing the space for other shows than a dislike of the show itself. There just wasn't enough love of the show to keep me holding on, or to seek out the episodes online. I also nuked Revolution after the stupid reared it's ugly head on the second season premier. I also wanted to quit Glee in its final season, but I stuck with it because I held on to it for so long. I did miss most of the China season though due to a personal loss at the time, and not due to actively wanting to leave the show.

[needschocolate]

Why am I watching this?  Because I have seen every episode of every season since the very first one and I am not going to let this bunch of meanies ruin my record. 

 

Or maybe I am a little bit compulsive. 

 

But I also know, that even though I follow seasons closely and think about each episode probably more than I really have time for, once the season is over, I pretty much wipe it from my memory.  Sure, I remember the some of the details - Richard was naked a lot, Rob won on his fourth attempt, Cirie was cool, but I don't remember why, Ozzy could swim like a dolphin, the dead grandma story, etc - including some I would rather forget, like  Phillip's pink droopy drawers, but I forget most of it - I just don't care anymore after the season ends.  So, as much as I dislike this cast and wish this season was better, by June this season will likely mean nothing to me.  Sure, I may have trouble forgetting the horror that are Will and Dan and Rodney (I can't completely forget Russell or Brandon either), they will quickly become insignificant to me, as they should. 

[niklj]

The editing this season has been so atrocious. So many questions that are unanswered by the end of the show.

 

How Mike went from top to bottom so fast is a great storyline, but we are supposed to INFER instead how it happened. And all of a sudden he's best buddies with Jenn and Shirin? Shirin and Mike then voting out Jenn after they said they were going to try taking Carolyn out? And that was just ONE episode.

 

I don't know if it's because this cast isn't providing them with the right footage or if someone's telling them to stick to a formula (reward+some random drama+large alliance deciding on target+small alliance scrambling+someone saying "yay I'm the swing vote" yet we know that they aren't going to actually be swinging any other way than predictably+inevitable boot). Or I wonder if the editor's strike last year had anything to do with it. But the bottom line is that I really miss some of the great editing in past seasons like Heroes vs. Villains.

[LadyChatts]

Completely agree about the editing.  I felt more effort went into making Nina's boot actually seem like there was doubt that she might get sent home.  I'm beginning to wonder if all this excellent game play and behind the scenes shenigans that castoffs have talked about really is just a figment of their imagination.  The season was that bad, no one can tell fact from fiction anymore.  I don't know why they've dropped the ball this season with editing, but it seemed to have gotten weaker with each passing episode.

 

All I know is that future Survivor contestants should have to take a mandatory crash course as to how it's done.  Rudy Boesch can teach about adapting when your on the outs; Rob C, Neleh and Paschal can show when it might be a good idea to flip and not be willing to settle; Parvati can show the girls how a girls-alliance is done; Sandra can give a lesson on not letting a bunch of misogynistic assholes get away with mistreating you; the Aitu 4 of Ozzy, Yul, Becky, and Sundra can give potential underdogs tips on turning things around in their favor; Christy and Dolly on why it's never a good idea to get too comfortable being a swing vote; and Stacy from Fiji can give a demonstration on how to successfully pull of a blindside when you aren't sure who has the idol.  Throw Richard Hatch in there to pound in the final nail that it's a game, play the game, and don't be wishy washy or lose sight of why you are there.  Anyone willing to settle for any placement other than #1 doesn't deserve to get cast.

Edited April 27, 2015 by LadyChatts

[ProfCrash]

I think Mike was always in the bottom of the seven person alliance. Rodney had his final four from the day of the merge, Rodney, Kelly, Carolyn, and Will. When Kelly was voted out, Rodney brought in Taylor. Knowing he had four and playing up how bad Mike's leadership was (Mike's decision to keep Joe got Kelly voted out), Rodney was able to sit back, let Mike look like the leader and be the target, and relax. Keep in mind, Rodney was on board with a Joaquin, Taylor alliance at the swap. Mike sniffed that out and took out Joaquin but I don't think that Mike really understood that Rodney was not planning on sticking with the Blue Collars after the Joaquin vote.

 

So Rodney has been planning to take Mike out from before the merge. What reason would Sierra and Dan have for keeping Mike? Mike is a hard worker, seems to get along with a good number of folks, and is well placed in challenges. Dan and Sierra have to know that Mike beats them in the final tribal.

 

Mike is not Tony. Mike has played well enough that no one is seeing him as a goat. Kass honestly thought that Tony was a goat. I don't think she was the only on to see Tony in that light. Mike is not seen by anyone as a goat. So while Sierra and Dan might have been willing to keep Mike until the final five, there was no way they would let Mike advance past that if they could help it.

 

I actually think that the editing has been fine on Mike's position in the game. He was already at the bottom of the alliance, fifth place in Dan and Sierra's head, seventh place in Rodney, Taylor and Carolyn's order. I think Mike knew it, which is why he watched Rodney and Joaquin and knew Joaquin had to go and why Mike was so worked up about finding the idol. Mike knows he is in a tough place.

 

This is not the first season I have cut short. I stopped watching Thailand because it was hideous. I cam in late on Rob vs Russell because I dislike Russell so much. I'll keep up with this one on the boards and through pod casts but I won't watch it or DVR. There is a line that has been crossed and I think it is important to let CBS know that. I love the show and cannot stand it when it turns into a giant bullying session. Since I am not a mega fan and I lose a fair amount of the details of each season reasonably fast, there is no reason for me to watch for completeness sake. The show is not enjoyable right now, I can turn it off.

 

ETA: I would not toss Richard in to teach anything at this point. I love listening to him on Rob's pod cast but Richard sexually harassed Sue and probably a few other people. I don't care that he wants to walk around in the buff but playing a challenge in the buff is wrong. There is likely to be contact and I don't want to be touching a man or a womans penis or vagina. I sure as hell don't want people who are not my doctor or husband touching my vagina or breasts. Richard intentionally went naked in challenges because he knew it would affect peoples game play but I think he should of had to wear his bathing suit. Forcing people to choose between participating in a challenge or having to come in contact with someone else's genitals is wrong. Sue was the person who spoke up but I have a feeling that many more people were offended. That crossed a line for me. Richard is very smart and capable but that was over the top and flat out wrong.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ProfCrash

[Eggman]

People who watch or don't watch Survivor because they have or don't have someone to "root for" are treating Survivor like football, and that's not what Survivor is.  Survivor is an experiment where 20 or so more or less random individuals are plopped down on a beach and made to play a silly social game for a million bucks with surprisingly few social rules.   Watching them do what people do, and what they in particular do, is the point.  Liking them is not.

[KimberStormer]

Well, don't tell me how or why to watch a show, is my reaction to that?  I'm very happy to miss the point, if that is the point.  That point sucks.

 

Cirie, Parvati, Cao Boi, Courtney, Ian, Malcolm, that's why I watch the show. 

Edited April 27, 2015 by KimberStormer

[phlebas]

I realized this morning that Will's dickishness and the varying reactions to it here and on other social media have added a sort of meta layer for me.  I'm curious to see how the game shakes out as more slide through the Douchebag Colander. But I'm now invested in watching how everyone reacts to whatever happens on the show. 

 

For example, the people defending Will are endlessly fascinating to me.  I'm not one of them -- I think what he did and said was vile and uncalled for in both the game and in human society -- but building a defense based on what they posit Shirin/Jenn/Mike said or did off-camera amazes me. 

 

I love this game more than ever, even while I hate the participants more than ever.

 

And I agree with COLTON about something.  I would never have expected that.

[BigRedCheese]

I think a pretty sizeable portion of the people defending Will are just playing devil's advocate, their defenses sort of bounce around and ignore a lot. You don't have to think that Shirin is a saint or even like her to recognize what Will did, and the way he did it, was ridiculously over the top and wrong in a really depraved way.

[scowl]

The biggest Will-defenders I've seen on the Internet look like simple attention whores to me. 

[ProfCrash]

People should be comfortable defending Will. There is no one interpretation on what happened in that scene. Civil conversation over different points of view is what makes these boards interesting and valuable. I can disagree with them and they can disagree with me. All is good

[scowl]

With all due respect, perhaps people "defend" or like Will because they recognize this is a television show. We're not watching a documentary. We're seeing about 5% of whom these human beings really are based around whatever episodic and seasonal storyline the powers-that-be want to shape.

These people have not presented the supposed missing 95% of the information that shows Will was justified in telling Shirin why God hates her. I have to assume that's because the information doesn't exist.

 

BTW documentaries are also edited by "powers-that-be" to present a viewpoint. They are not independent sources of information either. Fortunately the contestants on Survivor have been sharing their experiences which gives viewers a complete understanding. Will had been doing this until this episode.

[LadyChatts]

http://www.celebdirtylaundry.com/2015/survivor-worlds-apart-heavy-editing-turns-tribal-council-into-fake-blindside-fans-outraged/

 

Pretty much sums up my feelings on this season (I left out the part from Dan's twitter on here, since it's been posted in other threads, but it's the one where he defends Will and goes off on Shirin again after last week):

 

After 30 seasons, has Survivor jumped the shark? The ‘Survivor: Worlds Apart’ season is lackluster and disappointing for most of each episode up until each Tribal Council where it seems like there’s a major blindside. But is it a blindside for anyone but the audience? How heavily are Survivor producers editing the footage we see? Are these blindsides simply feats of editing engineering to try and keep us engaged? Let’s discuss.

 

How crappy is it to have “professional” players? With 20 seasons to study, far too many of the World’s Apart cast are Survivor nerds who have studied the playbook, can quote probabilities, statistics and, thus, take all the excitement out of the game. They need to be recruiting under rocks in remote regions to find players with some sense of reality show naivete, but is such a thing even possible in 2015? Where before we could enjoy watching players develop some savvy, play with a political or social edge or dominate physically, now it’s down to those who just craftily know the game.  Case in point is Shirin. She’s seemed to be a smart enough chick, but immensely unlikable to her fellow Survivors. It’s not apparent to the audience so that means she’s been edited to look better, but why? For instance, she and Will got into a huge confrontation where he seemingly attacked her out of nowhere. He said she had no family, no one likes her, she’s a loser, etc. Yet according to Dan Foley’s Twitter feed:

 

Those are fighting words and good TV, so why didn’t Survivor show us this set-up to the confrontation? Were they worried because it was a black vs white confrontation? As it is, Will came off looking terrible and she came off looking utterly the victim. And, judging from the editing, Shirin was destined to go home – no blindside, just a straight up ousting of an “unpopular” player. Yet Shirin emerged unscathed and Jenn was sent to the jury.

What we’re left with is a group of largely unlikable a**holes. If Rodney wins, I may gouge my own eyes out with a rusty soup spoon (as if listening to him wasn’t bad enough). He’s no Boston Rob – more of a Boston Gob. And again, with Rob, there seems to be selective editing. He says the crappiest stuff and tells obvious lies but then shines bright at Tribal Council. We’re not seeing what has to be a stellar social game for him to keep going like this.

Dan is not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, yet he’s still there. And he’s no asset in challenges at all, yet there he is. Will, too, is largely dead weight in challenges (and large). What is going on behind the scenes that Survivor isn’t showing us that has the least likely group of Survivors limping towards the finals? Carolyn and Tyler seem to pretty savvy. And poor Mike can’t catch a break.

 

Even when he caught Rodney, et al, blatantly plotting against him (and their alliance) and ratted them out, Rodney managed to flip it on him. Hopefully this week’s episode will be a little more interesting (could it be less interesting at this point?) when Tyler sneaks a peek into Dan’s bag and finds out about the extra vote. I would be intrigued to see ALL of the footage of Survivor – like how Big Brother offers After Dark and the Live Feed.

But would Survivor ever do this? Would they pull back the curtain and show us the wizard, short and unimpressive as he may be? Every reality show edits to amp up the intrigue, but it seems like in Season 30, they’re trying to spin straw into gold and, instead, are turning up with fool’s gold – at best. White collar, blue collar, no collar – how about dog collar? Because I feel like we’re being led around by Survivor showrunners and fed what they’re dishing out no matter how crappy it tastes.

 

Edited April 29, 2015 by LadyChatts

[KimberStormer]

So I haven't watched, don't plan to, but I poked my nose in the ep thread for a minute.  I don't understand why people say it was good for Mike to bluff the idol and not use it to save Shirin.  People say he exposed the cracks in the alliance, but he would have done that anyway.  If Dan flips, so what?  Then he's still got just Dan.  Why would saving Shirin preclude flipping Dan?  Then he's got Shirin, himself, Dan, and Dan's extra vote: parity with the alliance of evil.  Can someone explain what I'm missing?

 

(I'm prejudiced, because I think 100% of the time, I'd rather have an ally than an idol.)

[pennben]

 

Why would saving Shirin preclude flipping Dan?

 

Because Dan is committed to the alliance that welcomed him in as the sixth member. Also, Dan would never flip to be with Shirin (after he's already flipped once but doesn't see it), because, flippers, honor, gurgleburgle, superfan, numbers, flgarlfiglre, he is a superfan, and flkjfdsdfigom (not typos, how I see some of his thoughts). Also, cheeseburgers and imaginary hugs. Shirin, dlfkjpoissblllesie.

 

I think:)

Edited April 30, 2015 by pennben

[kikaha]

kimber, for one thing, Mike doesn't know about Dan's extra vote.  He also didn't know if anyone in the Strong (now Broken) Six would break ranks, and vote against their alliance.  If not, that would leave him down 5 to 2... with zero protection... and them still holding together strong. 

 

Keeping the idol guarantees he's safe next week.  Keeping Shirin does not.  He now can operate from a position of strength, with the idol in pocket and people like Dan really shaken up. 

 

You raised a good question.  My sense is Mike did the right thing. 

[enlightenedbum]

So I haven't watched, don't plan to, but I poked my nose in the ep thread for a minute.  I don't understand why people say it was good for Mike to bluff the idol and not use it to save Shirin.  People say he exposed the cracks in the alliance, but he would have done that anyway.  If Dan flips, so what?  Then he's still got just Dan.  Why would saving Shirin preclude flipping Dan?  Then he's got Shirin, himself, Dan, and Dan's extra vote: parity with the alliance of evil.  Can someone explain what I'm missing?

 

(I'm prejudiced, because I think 100% of the time, I'd rather have an ally than an idol.)

Because the way these people are, if he used his idol he needs to win every immunity.  If the bluff worked he didn't need to use it anyway.

[KimberStormer]

But he still needs to win immunity, but just one less, and he'd have another vote.  Now it's 5 to 1.  I dunno, it doesn't seem like much of a difference to me.

[enlightenedbum]

But he still needs to win immunity, but just one less, and he'd have another vote.  Now it's 5 to 1.  I dunno, it doesn't seem like much of a difference to me.

I mean it's not a great move.  He's still fundamentally screwed but now he's got one fewer challenge he has to take.

 

Or Dan/Sierra could smarten up, but those seem like slim odds.

[kikaha]

But he still needs to win immunity, but just one less, and he'd have another vote.  Now it's 5 to 1.  I dunno, it doesn't seem like much of a difference to me.

But if he doesn't win immunity, it's still 5 to 2. 

[KimberStormer]

Isn't it still 5 to 1?  I mean, votes wise?  If he has Shirin, he's got 2 votes.  If by some miracle he flips 2 people, that's 4 to 3 and they win.  But now, even if by some miracle he flips 2 people, it's 3 to 4 and they lose.

[kikaha]

kimber, maybe we're saying the same thing.  Say Mike gives the idol to Shirin.  He keeps an ally, i.e. he has two votes (Shirin's and his).  But five still give are lined up against him.  He must run the table on the ICs, or convince at least two people to flip.  Real daunting odds against him.  If he doesn't win the next IC, he's gone -- unless he can flip two people, something he had totally failed at so far. 

 

If he had given the idol to Shirin, Tyler and Dan would have tied with two votes each.  What happens then?  A revote between those two, where neither can vote?  That would have been interesting.  I wonder how those four Shirin votes would have gone?    

[ProfCrash]

Given the numbers, I think it was Mike's best play. If he thought that he had a chance in hell of flipping Sierra and Dan back, playing the idol makes sense. Sierra and Dan have made it very clear that they are not flipping. So if Mike plays the idol on Shirin, the he has one ally, Shirin.

 

There were two ways to play the idol, hand it to Shirin so everyone knows it is going to be played. Then Rodney/Carolyn/Will/Tyler vote for Dan and Mike loses a swing vote. So now Mike has Shirin and Sierra, who realizes she is on the bottom of the five. So now it is 4-3. Who do they flip from the four? No one is flipping. Unless there are two immunity idols at the next challenge and they find a hidden immunity idol, one of the is gone.

 

Mike plays the idol the way he did, and plays the idol on Shirin. Dan goes home on the revote with Rodney/Carolyn/Will voting for Dan. Mike and Shirin vote for Tyler. Sierra has to decide between drawing rocks by voting for Tyler or vote for Dan. Sierra votes for Dan. Dan is gone and Mike has no idol and a 5-2, potentially 4-3 split.

 

Mike wants to win. He has to keep the idol for himself. He can use the idol in two more tribals so he needs to win one more immunity to get to the five were he can play the idol and get to four.

 

There is no way for Mike to protect both people long enough to get to a place where the numbers are in his favor.

[kikaha]

Prof C: one small but important technical correction to your post.  They're at seven now.  So Mike must win the next two ICs, if he wants to use his HII at five.  Actually to guarantee F4 he needs to win two of the next three.  That's assuming no one flips to his side. 

[peachmangosteen]

I dunno, it doesn't seem like much of a difference to me.

 

This is the thing. Either way, Mike is still pretty much screwed. If I were in his position, I would've saved Shirin, but Mike went the other way. And honestly, these idiots hate Shirin so much that they seem willing to throw their game away over it, so I doubt Mike had any chance at all of pulling anyone over if Shirin was still there. Now he might finally be able to get Dan back and in turn get Sierra. If so though all they can muster is a tie, so again Mike is still mostly screwed.

 

Also, I wanted to say that it seems this 'Everyone hates Shirin!" thing that Will and Dan are perpetrating has caught on a bit and I wanted to point out that it is categorically false. Max, Hali, Jenn, Joe, and Mike didn't and don't 'hate' Shirin, so no, not everyone hated her so no, it's not somehow understandable and justfied that she got treated like shit while everyone sat by and did nothing or laughed about it.

Edited April 30, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[scowl]

I've had it with this season. After these smug assholes applauded themselves for not being fooled by an obvious bluff  (with Rodney gesticulating like a monkey), I lost all interest in this season. I don't want to see Grandma C's sour expressions or Will smugly doing nothing or Sierra failing to figure out what's going on or Rodney being collective, whatever that means. I especially don't want to see Dan who now appears to be regressing into childhood.

[KimberStormer]

Ahhh if Shirin was saved Dan was going home?  I got it I got it.  That makes a difference, since Dan is who Mike wanted to flip.  I thought it was Tyler who would go home.

[ProfCrash]

Mike wanted Tyler to go home but if they really believed that Mike would play the idol for Shirin, Tyler/Carolyn/Will/Rodney would have voted Dan. Mike had to find a way to get Tyler out while keeping Dan and Shirin. If Mike keeps Dan and SHirin and Tyler is gone, then Dan, Sierra, Mike, and Shirin are up in the vote.

[Special K]

I assume that Mike didn't know that those random votes would go to Dan of all people. But it was really the best possible outcome for him, if he's looking to reestablish a new BC alliance:

 

1. Dan has historic ties to Mike

2. Dan has shown himself to be extremely offended/sensitive to what he perceives is betrayal

3. Dan could possibly bring Sierra back with him

4. Dan cannot think more than one step ahead, so he'll do whatever fuels his vanity in the moment

 

I'm not sure I can give Mike credit for all that, but his instinct that he had to stir chaos among the Strong Six was terrific.  I cheered.

 

IN ADDITION:  he starts to dethrone Tyler, since Tyler for the first time that we've seen lost his cool and made a very bad move in voting for Dan.  He revealed that Dan is the bottom of the alliance, but he didn't take into account that Dan has that extra vote and... see (2.) above.

[Richness]

Tribal councils like this one (S30.E11: Survivor Russian Roulette) are why I still watch Survivor. Now if only the contestants weren't so vile, it would be even better.

[Special K]

I'm not sure where to put this, so I'll put it here. :)

 

Something that has been needling me for a while.  There's a ton of talk on the boards this season about the credibility of the edit and viewers' right/lack of right to judge people based on what they see on TV.  First of all, these people are adults who have chosen to be on TV, decades after reality TV became a thing.  I kind of think they get what they deserve.  But to my actual point...

 

While I agree with the idea that TPTB "tell" the story they want to tell, and manipulate our opinions of these people for their own commercial purposes, I'm not really so sure about the wrongness of judging people based on seeing a small portion of their lives.  I mean, don't we do that in our everyday lives?  If I see a mother on the subway hitting her child, don't I judge her for those, maybe, 2 minutes of her life?  Don't I  continue on to work and maybe say to a colleague, "I just saw this horrible thing on the subway..."  How is that different?  Maybe because she's anonymous to me?

 

Just wondering about others' thoughts on this.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Special K

[LadyChatts]

I'm not sure where to put this, so I'll put it here. :)

 

Something that has been needling me for a while.  There's a ton of talk on the boards this season about the credibility of the edit and viewers' right/lack of right to judge people based on what they see on TV.  First of all, these people are adults who have chosen to be on TV, decades after reality TV became a thing.  I kind of think they get what they deserve.  But to my actual point...

 

While I agree with the idea that TPTB "tell" the story they want to tell, and manipulate our opinions of these people for their own commercial purposes, I'm not really so sure about the wrongness of judging people based on seeing a small portion of their lives.  I mean, don't we do that in our everyday lives?  If I see a mother on the subway hitting her child, don't I judge her for those, maybe, 2 minutes of her life?  Don't I  continue on to work and maybe say to a colleague, "I just saw this horrible thing on the subway..."  How is that different?  Maybe because she's anonymous to me?

 

Just wondering about others' thoughts on this.

 

Going way back to the dawn of Survivor, Big Brother, etc., I can remember getting frustrated defending favorites of mine that sometimes were made out to be the villains on the show, and it was often my argument that we were seeing so little of what really went on.  But I realized, I was no different, and the reason I disliked contestants was for the same reason that everyone else did: because of what we see on TV.  Of course, my favorites at the time often seemed to be the ones that no one liked, or at least wouldn't openly admit it (I have no shame in admitting I was a huge Jerri Manthey fan back during her first outing in the Outback).  My argument was there was always more to the story, despite the 'they can't show it if it didn't happen' rebuttal to that.  Which is true, but they can certainly manipulate situations to look worse or appear one sided.  So for a long time, I just tried to keep that in mind, and figured the truth would eventually emerge.  And I still try to, but at the same time, these are people who signed up for this.  They know what they are getting into.  If people don't have reality TV and editing figured out by now, they really deserve what they get.  If their intent is to be an asshole because it's more memorable, and the show will always want a villain, again, they get what they ask for.  Dan wanted to be memorable?  He got it.  He probably won't ever receive an invite back, and the impression millions of people have of him is what they see for a little bit each week.  Hope it was worth it.

 

I remember an article I read once about the manipulation behind reality shows and the impact it had on people's every day lives, and the author said something along the lines of 'editors could make June Cleaver look as evil as Adolf Hitler with enough editing'.  Kind of stretch, but a valid point.  The author was trying to say that while these people signed up for this, the consequences they may have faced back home may not have been fair based on a few bits and pieces of a much bigger puzzle.  Will got death threats this season over his treatment of Shirin. Colton claimed his mom got threats against him during his season, and Na'Onka from Nicaragua said she had parents calling the schools she worked at and wanted her fired (I think Heidi from the Amazon season had something similar happen as well).  Reality TV is all about characters.  Just like any normal TV show or movie, we've got people we root for, against, who make it fun, and who we love to hate.  Jeff as well as many others involved in casting and producing these shows have said they are about casting the types-the soccer mom, the underdog, the over achiever, the obnoxious party boy/girl, the lovable (sometimes) "older" contestants, etc.  Whether they live up to what they showed production or not is another story.  I know Jeff had mentioned how much different Will was during the casting process, and it is not the first time I've heard him say that about someone.  Anyone can kill an audition or interview, but as anyone whose every gone through the hiring process knows, sometimes the person you interview isn't the person you end up getting.  I also work in customer service, and deal with some of the worst people ever on a semi regular basis.  I often hope they aren't that miserable in every day life, and that maybe they are just having a horrible day.  I know that in some of those cases, those people really are like that to anyone they encounter.

 

Looking outside the game, Dan and Will have tried doing more damage control for themselves than for what they actually did.  I said in Shirin's thread, about Will bragging about the popcorn episode before it aired, he either didn't anticipate how badly he was going to look, or underestimated the backlash he was going to receive.  I try to keep what happens on the show and what happens outside the show as two separate things, but again, sometimes you see how a castoff acts both on and off and think you're totally justified in the comments that you made about them.  Even if it is only based on 5 minutes of stupidity each week.  At the end of the day, what do the producers care?  The contestants have to go home and live with the backlash, however long it may last.  And forever be defined by what viewers say of them over a 14 episode span.  Meanwhile, TPTB are off filming a new batch of Joe's, Parvati's, Yau-Man's, and Colton's.  

Edited May 5, 2015 by LadyChatts

[ProfCrash]

While I agree with the idea that TPTB "tell" the story they want to tell, and manipulate our opinions of these people for their own commercial purposes, I'm not really so sure about the wrongness of judging people based on seeing a small portion of their lives.  I mean, don't we do that in our everyday lives?  If I see a mother on the subway hitting her child, don't I judge her for those, maybe, 2 minutes of her life?  Don't I  continue on to work and maybe say to a colleague, "I just saw this horrible thing on the subway..."  How is that different?  Maybe because she's anonymous to me?

Obviously there is a good deal that we don't see. No doubt about it. I think there is room for slack in many cases based on what we see and how frequently we see it.

 

Mike had a bad couple of moments early on. He complained that no one thanked him for his work when he didn't thank the women for their work and he admitted that the women did a lot of work .Then the advice he gave to Dan when Dan went to apologize to Sierra was, well, as sexist as it gets. Just apologize, that is all a woman wants to hear.  Uggghhh

 

But Mike has had some great moments. He stood up for Sierra and told Dan and Rodney to stop their attack after the Lindsey vote out. I think part of it was strategic, Mike knew he still needed Sierra, and part of it was Mike not liking bullying. Mike was also the only person to step in and try and stop the Shirin attack. Shirin has said that Mike is the first person in her life to step into that type of situation and try to remove her from it. That tells me that 1) most of us don't have the courage to step in when we see verbal abuse 2) Mike is a pretty upstanding guy.

 

Now Mike is getting the underdog edit since he was so thoroughly tossed from his alliance. We can say that it was because of bad game play (the auction then the outing of Rodney while reading letters) but I think it is more realistic to say that Mike was always seventh with four of the people in that alliance and they used those incidents to insure that Mike went out earlier. Dan is an idiot and fell for it, hurting his own position in the game.

 

Shirin was depicted as kooky, annoying, and willing to antagonize from day one. We saw the monkey sex scene and how people responded to that. We saw her poking at Joaquin and why he didn't like her. We saw all the game talk. We saw everyone complaining about Shirin and her constant discussion of the game. hEck, all of that carried over into her Ponderosa video. Shirin has not been portrayed as some helpless flower who did nothing to annoy people.

 

What people have asked is that really all Shirin did or did she do more obnoxious things or say really awful things to Dan and Will that caused their poor treatment of her. Based on the interviews we have had from Jenn, Joe, and Hali I am guessing the answer to that question is no. Is it possible that Shirin was awful to Will and Dan with no one else around and we have not seen it or heard about it? Yes. Is it likely, I am leaning towards that it didn't happen. Shirin seems to have limited filter and I cannot see her being alone with the two of them often enough to be a selective bitch. We are not hearing second hand conversations about the awful things that Shiring said. Crickets on that subject.

 

The problem for Dan is that his edit has been consistent. He started off pissing off the women while building the shelter. He showed his contempt for women with his over the top lecture to Sierra about her game play and then his awful apology. He built on that contempt with his over the top lecture to Shirin about how badly she is playing. His Talking heads have reinforced his conversations with people. First the some body hit Shirin (although I don't think he meant it that way but you can say shut up without suggesting violence, Jenn did) and then with his Shirin two faced/karma talking head.

 

Is it possible that Dan had a more gentle side out there? Yup. I think it was Hali who talked about Dan teaching her to juggle and being fine. But Lindsey, Sierra, and Shirin have a common theme in Dan comments. I do think he presented a totally different image to all then men because, well, he sees men in a different light then he sees women.

 

Rodney has been depicted as a Boston meat head with outdated ideas about women. I don't think Rodney would actually disagree with that portrayal, except he doesn't think his ideas about women are outdated. Rodney has been shown doing impressions and as someone who is a meat head but a harmless meat head. Except that his ideas about women are not harmless and it is a double standard that we really need to find away to purge. The difference between Rodney and Dan is that Rodney, based on interviews and what we have seen, is a hot head who really is not an asshole. Shirin said Rodney was nice to her. Jenn and Hali laugh at Rodney. I don't doubt that Rodney sees fist fights as a legit way to deal with problems but that is part of the meat head aspect of his life. Honestly, Rodney comes off as a Junior Tony who can be over the top and offensive but overall is a good guy with a too big mouth and flash temper. He does have control, he speaks up at stupid times because he is who he is but he has never been physically threatening that we have seen. He has discussed in his talking heads but I cannot think of anyone who thought that he was an actual threat.

 

Will is the one who is the most interesting to me. Will was under the radar for ages. He was someone who flipped but we never saw why he flipped. He bought Mike's lie about voting for Hali and was upset but never seemed to think about leaving the new alliance. Then the next time we see him he is blowing up at Shirin. Based on Shirin's in game bonus talking heads and her interviews. Will had been pretty awful to her since the merge. We didn't see any of that. But that type of explosion does not come out of the blue. Something was building and we didn't see it. I don't know why we didn't see it unless the editors decided that between Dan and Rodney there was enough negative man edit out there that they didn't need to add to it with someone who seems to be a non-entity game wise. But they had to show the massive blow up.

 

To make things worse, Will continues on with the bad behavior at tribal that night and then three days later. We have not seen talking heads from Will about what happened, which makes me think that Will was pretty bad in his talking heads.

 

Rodney is being Rodney. I don't like his ideas but I don't think he means to hurt anyone. Unless he is drunk and someone makes a joke about his mother. Dan and Will mean to hurt people. I could buy that Dan meant to hurt people in the game only with his over the top comments directed at Shirin and Sierra. Dan stepped across the line into Will territory when he gave the fake apology to Shirin and said that what Will did was Karma. Then he made it worse by trying to equate Shirin's reasons for having no blood family ties with his reasons for having no blood family ties. Dan and Will are being who they are. They might do a better job of disguising their bad behavior in their real life but I 100% believe that the editing is being honest with their depiction.

 

I don't care that Dan was supportive to the men and funny and juggled a lot. Do not care. He was awful to the women. He was at best a sexist asshole. More likely then not, he was a misogynistic asshole. He is trying to undercut what happened to Shirin by holding his own pity party. In doing so he made himself look like an idiot and offended adopted parents and children across the globe. Will has showed no game play and that he is a raging, verbally abusive asshole who picks on people who are different from him and in a weaker position. The fact that he went after Shirin and not Jenn, hell he pulled Jenn aside and said he loved her and there was no problems between them when she was one of the people saying he lied about the food, is just a sign of how much of a weak fucker he is. He wouldn't go after the people who could defend themselves and who the others in the tribe wouldn't tolerate, Mike and Jenn, the attack. He selected Shirin.

 

So yeah, I'll by editing to a certain extent but this season the editing has been pretty consistent. While I am sure that Mike and Will have had their good moments, I don't think joking around with Rodney counter balances their poor treatment of women.

[Jersey Guy 87]

Will is the one who is the most interesting to me. Will was under the radar for ages. He was someone who flipped but we never saw why he flipped. He bought Mike's lie about voting for Hali and was upset but never seemed to think about leaving the new alliance. Then the next time we see him he is blowing up at Shirin. Based on Shirin's in game bonus talking heads and her interviews. Will had been pretty awful to her since the merge. We didn't see any of that. But that type of explosion does not come out of the blue. Something was building and we didn't see it. I don't know why we didn't see it unless the editors decided that between Dan and Rodney there was enough negative man edit out there that they didn't need to add to it with someone who seems to be a non-entity game wise. But they had to show the massive blow up.

 

To make things worse, Will continues on with the bad behavior at tribal that night and then three days later. We have not seen talking heads from Will about what happened, which makes me think that Will was pretty bad in his talking heads.

 

 

Some interesting points, but I wanted to focus on this.  I'm confused why they didn't show us what lead to Will blowing up at Shirin.  Sure, there were lots of other incidents of men behaving badly, but they did all the editing knowing already how things turn out.  They knew Will was going to have his blowup at Shirin.  Since guys being assholes to women seems to be a theme this season I'm perplexed as to why they didn't show more of the earlier interactions between Shirin and Will.  The editors knew that Will was going to be shown to be an unapologetic bully to Shirin, not showing the build up to that did nothing for the viewers in terms of protecting Will's image or minimizing the amount of guys being jerks to women.

But the editing this season has pretty much sucked in every other aspect so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.  I'm sticking in this season because I like Survivor and I'll accept that some seasons aren't going to be good.  Like this one.

[ProfCrash]

I think they didn't show it because Will is a non-entity in the game. Rodney, and Mike are active players with a legit shot to make it to the end and win so they have given us a better view of their game and behavior. Dan has a legit shot to make it to the end and has been pretty bad to a fair number of the women out there. It has been consistent.

 

Will seems to have only gotten into it with Shirin. I wonder if the comments that Shirin said he made about being soulless and having no integrity were made regularly but not in a context that they could simply show. I also wonder if they were hesitant about showing an African American man treat a woman on a regular basis so poorly.

 

As soon as the blow up happened people were posting if there would have been similar outrage if a white man had said those things to Shirin. Fortunately the answer was yes because of all of the outrage directed at Dan twice already in the season. Personally, I think the massive blow up was that the season had a whole slew of people behaving badly and that seemed to be the icing on top of a shit cake. Then Dan opened his mouth in the next episode and you simply had to shake your head and wonder if any of the idiots out there would get a clue.

 

I tend to lean towards what Will was saying were snide comments and one offs that just couldn't be placed in the context of the show. I don't think there was an extended conversation about how awful Shirin was with Will discussing her lack of a soul or why he thought she had no soul. I think if there had been smaller dust ups that lead into it we would have seen those. I also think that the one dust up we saw was more then enough evidence of Will's behavior and that I didn't need to see even more of it.

 

So Dan's bad behavior was spread out among many people. Rodney's meat head behavior has been highlighted pretty clearly. We saw the one with Will. Can you imagine how awful the show would be if we had even more of this crap? Just uggghhhh

[laurakaye]

Can you imagine how awful the show would be if we had even more of this crap? Just uggghhhh

This is what I struggle with, because while I am disgusted by many of this season's players, I will continue to watch because I love this show.

 

I can't remember a worse season of Survivor in terms of actively hating some of the players. Just clicking around the Survivor forums, I'm seeing things like Joaquin calling Shirin "fat."  Tyler telling the women to sit quiet and look pretty.  Will's viciousness.  Dan's condescending attitude towards women.  Who in casting allowed all these morons to be on the same season?  It's an awful group of men (save one or two), and a fairly passive group of women (still upset that Jenn bailed).  There's usually one or two boneheads in every season, but other than Russell and Colton, none jump to mind as being as collectively disgusting as this group.

 

Will the powers that be consider this season a huge success because, after all, people are talking about it, even if we're all talking about it for the wrong reasons?  Or will they see the error of their ways?  I don't have small children anymore, but if I did, I'm pretty sure I would not be comfortable letting them watch this season, and I can't really remember ever feeling that way before.

 

I am all for stealth and conflict on Survivor in terms of outplaying, but this season is a whole new and uncomfortable level.  Maybe that's what Survivor is becoming?  I hope not.

Edited May 5, 2015 by laurakaye

[ProfCrash]

Jenn's bailing makes more sense watching Dan's behavior. She said in her interviews that there was no way to convince Dan and Sierra to flip. The two were impossible to work with. So why bother banging your head against a wall when all you are doing is giving yourself a concussion. Many of the people out there were vile. One of the people who wasn't vile was annoying. You are hungry, sleep deprived, bored and you have no moves to make because the people  you have to work with won't move. One won't flip with out a guarantee that the numbers are there (Sierra) the other won't flip because he sucks at math and/or doesn't realize that he is a massive goat.

 

I can forgive Jenn's checking out.

[LadyChatts]

Jenn's bailing makes more sense watching Dan's behavior. She said in her interviews that there was no way to convince Dan and Sierra to flip. The two were impossible to work with. So why bother banging your head against a wall when all you are doing is giving yourself a concussion. Many of the people out there were vile. One of the people who wasn't vile was annoying. You are hungry, sleep deprived, bored and you have no moves to make because the people  you have to work with won't move. One won't flip with out a guarantee that the numbers are there (Sierra) the other won't flip because he sucks at math and/or doesn't realize that he is a massive goat.

 

I can forgive Jenn's checking out.

 

I can forgive Jenn more than I can forgive other people who outright quit but had options or weren't in danger of being voted off anytime soon.  I believe that there was nothing they could do, and anyone willing to flip didn't have the numbers to bring with them.  Under a different set of circumstances, I believe Jenn would have been more of a game player.  That's how she started off this season.  If she had a fighting chance or a glimmer of hope, I believe she would have fought to stay in it.  I also believe Hali, So, and Lindsey would have provided more interesting game play if given the chance.

 

I actually don't know what I want to happen tomorrow night more.  They are at the 7, but the 6 will have to turn on each other because there's the chance Mike will immunity or at least play his idol.  So even though Rodney's got a 4-some, and assuming he legit doesn't quit (if he does I'll be livid, probably because Probst won't make good on the promise that quitters won't be on the jury-it was at producer discretion, and Rodney will probably give an entertaining jury speech they won't want to miss out on), so the question is will the four go after Sierra or Dan, or end up blindsiding one of their own.  I just want someone who waited to make a move or didn't want to flip have it come back to bite them.  Obviously I think Sierra might have if she could have, but I still question whether she stuck with the blue collar guys and all the talk about flipping was just a ruse.  Guess I won't know that until she's allowed to talk about it.  I honestly don't care who goes tomorrow, though I'd actually like to see Rodney stick around.  I'm indifferent on Mike and Tyler.  I wouldn't mind seeing Carolyn, Sierra, or Dan get a big old blindside, even though I pity the Ponderosa crowd if Dan gets voted off.

Edited May 6, 2015 by LadyChatts

[ProfCrash]

I just can't see them voting Dan out. He is such a goat. I suspect Sierra goes home. The real question is when do Rodney, Carolyn, and Tyler turn on each other? I sense that Tyler will be the first of the three to go because he has the best chance at winning immunity.

[pennben]

I have a weird feeling Mike is going to once again overplay tonight and think he can slip through without using his hiddenidol, only to be voted out. This assumes he doesn't win immunity.