S02.E18: The Frenemy Of My Enemy

[paigow]

A good question, actually. On the one hand Captain America IS a powered person....

Isn't RealSHIELD worried only about "alien powered" people? The mist people are Inhuman weapons created by the Kree. Rogers and Banner are the result of human experimentation without alien control.

[KirkB]

I think they're 'most' worried about alien powered people, especially the ones like Thor who can pass for human and things like the diviner which can turn apparently normal people into monsters, but Gonzalez in particular doesn't seem to be fond of anything that isn't a normal, 'real' human. Mack seems to be the same way. I'm not sure about Bobbi.

Edited April 25, 2015 by KirkB

[DeLurker]

After the wonder of Bill Paxton's Garrett, I really didn't imagine they would try to top him.  I've got to say Kyle MacLachlen's Cal is at least equal to Garrett.  Cal's not just a mercurial time bomb, he's a highly unstable nuclear weapon.

 

Thank you AoS for giving me top-notch nutters.

[sjohnson]

By the way, when Ward dumped Fitz and Simmons, he didn't drop them from a mere 500 feet, which would surely have killed them, but more like 50. I know the issue is confused by indifference to real world physics displayed by TV actions shows, but still...That's equivalent to stunt flying. Radar is not magic, so there is no need to buzz the ocean.There really is no way to rationalize this except by accepting that Ward did this deliberately so that they could have at least a chance to survive the impact and escape. It is an established in universe fact that Ward tried not to kill those two at least. 

[Jeezaloo]

Mac was only possessed for a short time

LOL So, what do you think is an "okay" amount of time to be possessed by an unknown alien entity before you become compromised? Because personally, I think it is the fact that you were possessed, for any length of time, that makes the warning horns go "WOOOP! WOOOP!"

 

Mac was possessed by the same alien species, whose blood was used to save Coulson. While possessed, Mac actively sought out and attacked SHIELD agents! If they didn't even understand the alien tech that did it, then how can they be so sure Mac wasn't programmed with a trigger to go all Fisticuffs Zombie on them again?

 

It is a giant plot hole to have someone who distrusts alien-influenced people, then trusts an alien-influenced person. Either it is a massive plot hole, or Olmos doesn't oppose the idea as much as he says he does, and is using it as an excuse to shake faith in Coulson and stage a coup against the real director of SHIELD.

 

But...feels like a plot hole. I love this show, but ... plot hole.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Jeezaloo

[ottoDbusdriver]

But...feels like a plot hole. I love this show, but ... plot hole.

 

Especially once its unveiled that the secret cargo stashed on RealSHIELD's aircraft carrier is probably an enhanced person or alien tech.

[KirkB]

It probably is just a plot hole but it's also possible Gonzalez is a massive hypocrite. 

[paigow]

I think they're 'most' worried about alien powered people, especially the ones like Thor... 

That's just dude envy. If all Asgardian men looked like Koenig, SHIELD would not be upset. Unfortunately,Thor makes any female (e.g. Jane, May, Simmons & Sif) swoon. Therefore, he should be feared and treated as an enemy.... 

[BPOX]

LOL, seriously where are the shlubbly super heroes? I get that the athletic ones look good because they are athletic, but...

[DeLurker]

It goes both ways since the super powered females are blessed in more ways than just super powers.

[Jeezaloo]

LOL, seriously where are the shlubbly super heroes? I get that the athletic ones look good because they are athletic, but...

Schlubby, average folk - you n' me - we read and watch this stuff for wish fulfillment. How many of us wish to be general-order scruff? We've got that shit MASTERED! No wish needed! We're there! Done and done!

 

How many of us would say "No!" to a body and a face, beloved by billions, if we had the chance to be someone other-than 'settle-for'? Non-general-order, and non-scruff type of folk?

 

Having said that; if it wasn't handled with the expected ineptness, I'd favor schlub-scruff heroes over the by-cheekbone-alone variety, all day and any day.

 

 

 

[FurryFury]

LOL, seriously where are the shlubbly super heroes? I get that the athletic ones look good because they are athletic, but...

 

Same can be said for old-looking superheroes, too. This is just the way the genre works. I may not particularly like it, but what can I do?

Hey, maybe Ryan Murphy will one day create a superhero show (although the idea kinda terrifies me).

[xqueenfrostine]

By the way, when Ward dumped Fitz and Simmons, he didn't drop them from a mere 500 feet, which would surely have killed them, but more like 50. I know the issue is confused by indifference to real world physics displayed by TV actions shows, but still...That's equivalent to stunt flying. Radar is not magic, so there is no need to buzz the ocean.There really is no way to rationalize this except by accepting that Ward did this deliberately so that they could have at least a chance to survive the impact and escape. It is an established in universe fact that Ward tried not to kill those two at least. 

 

I'm sorry but this is crazy.  No other rational explanation?  How about because that just happened to be how high they were in the air when he dropped them?  It's not like he ordered the pilot to decrease the altitude before dropping them.  Hell he didn't even look out the window to see how high they were, so I find the idea that this was his plan a stretch.  Especially since there are a thousand different ways things could have gone down once Fitz & Simmons were down in the ocean that could have lead to their death.  Hell if Nick Fury, who everyone thought was dead, hadn't been listening to old SHIELD frequencies and been there with a helicopter Fitz and Simmons would have drowned.  There was no life boat, no life preserver, and they were not close enough to land for Simmons to swim for shore or have a good shot of being spotted by a boat.  Simmons would have been left holding an unconscious Fitz in the ocean trying to keep both of their heads above water.  Ward doesn't deserve a cookie for the fact that both of them made it.  It's not like he phoned the coast guard after he released them into the ocean. 

Edited April 27, 2015 by xqueenfrostine

[sjohnson]

"How about because that just happened to be how high they were in the air when he dropped them?"

 

Obviously we're going to disagree...because, no, there is no rational excuse for the plane to be flying so low and slow. And sorry, no, I don't think if you're taking over an airplane you don't know some basics about what's going on, including roughly how high it's flying and where it's headed and how fast it's flying. Ward is genuinely homicidal but still doesn't just get larger weapons and shoot their asses or gas them or burn them out, rather than leave a giant hole in the airplane? Seriously, you gotta think throwing chunks of plane away is a big step. Maybe I'm prejudiced on this because my reaction to the shot of the room/box dropping was that it was a big cheat, a script miracle. It was something like someone in a cartoon falling out of a plane and landing on a truckload of mattresses. So yeah, Ward's explanation seems much better.

 

I certainly don't know how much of a cookie it is to concede Ward was giving them more chance in the ocean than with a bullet to the head.

[DeLurker]

Didn't young Ward kill his brother in a fire? 

 

I'm thinking he gets an extra dose of pleasure knowing his victims will consciously suffer and panic before actually dying.

[kitlee625]

Didn't young Ward kill his brother in a fire? 

 

I'm thinking he gets an extra dose of pleasure knowing his victims will consciously suffer and panic before actually dying.

 

As a teenager, about 16 I believe, he ran away from military school and traveled like a thousand miles to set his family's house on fire while his older brother was inside. It is heavily implied that he did this to kill Christian. However, he was caught and sent to juvie, and his older brother survived unharmed.

 

I'd agree with you about him taking pleasure in suffering. That stuff with him and his brother in "The Things We Bury" I found pretty of disturbing. He seemed to take pleasure in dragging his brother to well, beating a confession out of him, and then pretending that all was forgiven ... just to turn around and kill Christian and their parents in a fire.

[KirkB]

They may be doing the ambiguity thing deliberately so the audience can make up their own minds. If you see Ward as a remorseless psychopath you can believe he pushed them out at a survivable height in a semi-airtight container so they died potentially slowly and painfully and he can imagine them pounding on the walls until their hands bleed, but if you like Ward and want to see him as something more than a monster you can imagine he was giving them at least the slimmest chance of survival while not risking pissing off Garrett.

[DeLurker]

kitlee625 - Thanks for the refresher.  T

 

KirkB - Hadn't thought that it might be deliberate.  If so, good job Show.

[APSimpson]

They may be doing the ambiguity thing deliberately so the audience can make up their own minds.

 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. They wanted to keep things ambiguous - plausible deniability and all that.

 

I'll admit, I am biased in favor of Ward. (In case you guys didn't know! ;)

 

Not to spoil anything, but in the second preview for the next episode, we see Simmons asking Coulson to join the mission. I wonder if Simmons has a plan to make do on her promise that the next time she sees Ward she'll kill him? Will be interesting to see the tension with the team having to work with Ward.

Edited April 28, 2015 by APSimpson

[Chicago Redshirt]

LOL So, what do you think is an "okay" amount of time to be possessed by an unknown alien entity before you become compromised? Because personally, I think it is the fact that you were possessed, for any length of time, that makes the warning horns go "WOOOP! WOOOP!"

 

Mac was possessed by the same alien species, whose blood was used to save Coulson. While possessed, Mac actively sought out and attacked SHIELD agents! If they didn't even understand the alien tech that did it, then how can they be so sure Mac wasn't programmed with a trigger to go all Fisticuffs Zombie on them again?

 

It is a giant plot hole to have someone who distrusts alien-influenced people, then trusts an alien-influenced person. Either it is a massive plot hole, or Olmos doesn't oppose the idea as much as he says he does, and is using it as an excuse to shake faith in Coulson and stage a coup against the real director of SHIELD.

 

But...feels like a plot hole. I love this show, but ... plot hole.

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this, I assume.

 

I think there is a big difference between Mac's having been possessed for a day at most, and probably more like a couple hours, on the one hand, and Coulson's having been affected for months.

 

I think there is a big difference between Mac having not shown any after-effects of having been possessed as far as we have been shown and Coulson's having had to have his memory wiped just to function.

 

I think there's a big difference between the source of Mac's possession brainwashing him and having been destroyed and the alien stuff that brought Coulson back from the dead still swimming in his veins.

 

And as someone upthread said, there's a big difference between having suspicions about someone who's a front-line soldier and having suspicions about someone who is in charge of everyone.

[ChelseaNH]

I expect Mac will be under observation for some time.  It's not so much that he's trusted as he's not actively distrusted.

[Bruinsfan]

There was a movie I saw with that kind of plot, where some scientists mind-wipe a terrorist and trick him into thinking he's a double agent infiltrating his former group. Eventually his memories start to come back but by then he was so influenced by what he has experienced he doesn't want to go back to who he was. That movie asked some pretty intriguing questions. Like is a person just the sum of his memories? Is it really okay to mess with someone's mind like that even if he is your enemy? What makes a person good or evil? Stuff like that. Unexpectedly thinky for a sci-fi/action flick.

Was it by any chance Cypher with Jeremy Northam?

[Bec]

It was this movie:

http://www.lovehkfilm.com/reviews/purple_storm.htm

 

Like someone said, it's something of a trope, so I figured it has shown up as a plot in more than one thing, but I still think it can be interesting to see this kind of thing play out with the characters on this show. Sure seems more amusing to me than the snorefest that is REAL SHIELD, anyway.

 

LOL, seriously where are the shlubbly super heroes?

Hey, you might like Mystery Men!

[BPOX]

Hey, you might like Mystery Men!

 

Yeah I pretty much love Mystery Men... but I just want to say I'm not forgetting Koenig either and his less than cover boy looks and mysterious powers. Thank you AOS for the representation. All the Koenig/ Koenig shippers will be mad at me now.

 

I think mind wiping Ward is pretty hard to defend, which is I guess why it might be a decent idea. Still, I don't see this show doing some sort of Clockwork Orange subplot justice. It would just have to be too focused on Ward, I think in an ensemble piece like this your sympathy would keep getting pulled away.

[Hanahope]

Is there a reason that Skye's mother has those scars on her face?  Whitehall wanted to know what was inside her, and when Cal found her (supposedly dead), her face was fine.  I assume her 'power' is immortality, so he could somehow put her back together with either rejuvenated parts or stolen parts, but why would her face have scars?

[Donny Ketchum]

Is there a reason that Skye's mother has those scars on her face?

The scars are from Cal patching her back together.  It was established during one of the scenes between them.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Donny Ketchum

[Hanahope]

But as I said, her face wasn't damaged when Cal found her body.  So it makes no sense that she'd be scarred on her face.

[BPOX]

You know how you put together something and realize you left a screw out and have to take it apart and start all over?

[Ottis]

Without seeing that, May's current turn feels very out of character.  Her past with powered people doesn't explain how, despite the great loyalty she's shown Coulson, she felt she could risk Simmons locating Coulson through Deathlok under the direction of New SHIELD or why she would take Skye's call in front of Mac and Bobbi and feel comfortable allowing them to go to retrieve her. I just don't buy her motivation.

 

 

It's so out of character that the whole episode, I was viewing May as being the Hydra agent with the electronic mask, and her behavior made sense as a mole. Then I  realized Kara was with Ward, so I can't explain it. 

 

What exactly is Cal's superpower again? Other than crazy?

[quiet historian]

I thought crazy was Cal's superpower - he does it with such flair.   Any thoughts on - since the Kree have already been seen and introduce via the blue guy a while back - that Olmos couldn't be a shape shifting Skrull sent to infiltrate and gather up the Kree weapons (powered people) and either kill them or subvert them for the Skrull?  - Just one of those truly weird 3 o 'clock in the morning thoughts I have sometimes.

[John Potts]

Well, this episode was quite a pile up, with SHIELD, Olmost!SHIELD, the Inhumans and HYDRA all piling in (not to mention all the potential traitors within each). Highly disappointed we didn't get to see how you can escape from a bathroom using only a hand drier but Fitz really should know better than to start running until you're sure you've been spotted. Nice to see Mike/Deathlok again, though he needs to keep a better poker face in future.
 

Ottis What exactly is Cal's superpower again? Other than crazy?

Cal seems to be something like a punier Hulk (not sure where Cal Zabo/Mr Hyde ranks in the Marvel badass rankings). So he probably gets stronger the crazier he gets.

 

xqueenfrostine Man I felt so bad for Cal this week.  He's a crazy weirdo, but I feel tons better about him as a parent than I do about SkyeMom.

That's because it's hard to feel anything for a completely blank character. She might as well be playing one of the base dolls from Dollhouse!

 

Amelie06 The Inhumans seem like a bunch of a-holes. What a demanding bunch of divas. Their compound seems like a super bitchy high school.

 

Ain't that the truth! I wish we saw something of their goals/beliefs are, even if they prove to be a bunch of raging hypocrites.

 

Donny Ketchum Simmons shouldn't get mad at May at all.  She was right that Bobbi, Mack, and the rest of the "real SHIELD" would've found out about the box eventually.

 

ALL undercover agencies operate on the assumption that a captured agent will spill intel "eventually" (the fact that Jack Bauer and James Bond can keep quite for months is pure BS) - the point is to make the period as long as possible so you can take counter measures/minimise damage. Not sure whether May is playing along for Coulson's benefit, is trying to unite the two factions or simply has joined Team Gonzalez.