S04.E03: Episode 3

[smrou]

Yeah...I have a lot more sympathy for Tony than that. It's not that he wasn't at all selfish and certainly he knew he was taking a risk, but living in a time and place where it was illegal for him to pursue a life that would be fulfilling and happy for him made his options pretty limited and I can see how he could feel a sense of desperation that could lead to risky behavior. Yes, he could just be alone for his whole life, but the fact that he tried to make a life for himself in the way that society taught him was the right way to do it and ultimately found it wasn't enough doesn't make him totally unsympathetic in my opinion. Sure, he probably knew he was attracted to men before he got married, but that doesn't mean that he'd accepted that fact. It doesn't mean that he knew he couldn't be happy in a hetero marriage. It's not like he probably got the impression from anyone ever that just accepting that he's gay was an okay way to go. I'm sure he felt he needed to fight against his nature, and marrying a woman was the way to do it. 

[Beldasnoop]

I'm not condoning cheating, but I think the scene with the Turners explained Tony's predicament a little bit more (which is why I'm surprised it got cut in the "official" PBS version). Basically, if you haven't seen that scene, Shelagh asks Patrick how Tony can be gay when he's married and his wife is pregnant. Patrick says that it's basically because of societal expectations: "a man gets married, he has a family. There isn't much room for a different way." Tony got married because that was what was expected of him, and apparently there was a lot of internalized shame about being gay back then, because society didn't accept it. It was seen as "off" or wrong, so people would deny it and do what was expected of them. Many gay men married women, and they had kids, and some of them stayed married. Some ended up getting divorced and coming out of the closet years later.  It's the way the world was back then, and different people handled the situation in different ways, but a lot of people got married and had kids. 

 

As for this show becoming a "lesson of the week" show, just keep watching. It's a great season, and I think this episode was unique in how it became more about the issue than the story (or the regular show characters, who are the reason I watch the show). 

Edited April 14, 2015 by Beldasnoop

[marceline]

Well, housing discrimination against the Irish in the 1960s isn't a "well-established" fact for this American.

 

 

That's because Irish discrimination was over in America.

 

I know this is slightly OT so forgive me but as a black person, the whole concept of Irish discrimination baffles the shit out of me. 

 

Back on topic...I should say what one of my favorite scenes was. I really liked the scene during the Irish woman's labor in the shelter where that seemingly cold, thoughtless matron offered up her own "boil washed, clean as you can get" blanket for the baby. One of the things I've always loved about this show is the moment where the women of Poplar do right by other women in some small unexpected way. I found that way more moving than that hackneyed standing ovation at the end.

[maraleia]

Ugh, I too am watching on a station (WETA) that is editing out scenes! I didn't see the scene with Trixie and Nurse Crane in quarantine together. Nor did I get to see the scene with the Turners at home discussing the case. I'll have to see if the other PBS station that I can get shows full episodes.

I'm watching on WTTW in Chicago and they are cutting the same scenes for us. I just tweeted them and asked what gives. I would rather see the full episode and none of the behind the scenes videos so why are they doing this to us???

[lark37]

 

As for this show becoming a "lesson of the week" show, just keep watching. It's a great season, and I think this episode was unique in how it became more about the issue than the story (or the regular show characters, who are the reason I watch the show).

 

Good, thanks for that tip about the rest of this season.  After the last episode and to some extent the one before, I was beginning to feel I was watching a different series than the one based on the book. As for the the scene between the Turners that was cut from the version I watched, it does sound like it explained more about what Tony was feeling and why. However, the fact remains that what he did was in a public place with a man that I didn't hear consent to his advances. That would likely still be a crime today whether it was same sex or opposite sex. The fact that homosexuality was considered a crime back then was terrible, and I know that Tony didn't have many choices as a gay man in 1960. Yet, he did marry and none of what happened was his wife's fault.  I just wanted him to stop the whining and playing the victim and show some concern for what he was putting his wife through in her condition.  

 

I do really like the new midwife, Nurse Crane.  She seems a little gruff and no nonsense like Sister Evangelina, but with more compassion.  I loved how Dr. Turner hated the idea of her coming with him to talk about the boarding house, but then gave her such admiring looks when she got them what they wanted!  Of course, I loved the actress on Lark Rise to Candleford, so I am probably biased in her favor.  

[Badger]

I didn't see anything particularly anachronistic about how the women applauded for Marie.  I think it was just their way of saying they knew what was going on with her husband was not her fault.  Having said that, I think they were kind of shamed into it by Tom and the sisters clapping.  I mean, if a man of God and a bunch of nuns are clapping, how can they not?  

 

And as in "Downton Abbey", no one expressed approval of what Tony did or even of homosexuality in general.   

[Kohola3]

And as in "Downton Abbey", no one expressed approval of what Tony did or even of homosexuality in general.

 

Yes, but as in Downton Abbey they responded uncharacteristically forgiving for the time period. What the presented were 2015 values in a 1960's world.  Doesn't quite fit.  I grew up in that era and there would not have been a standing ovation back then, at least in my neighborhood.

[JudyObscure]

I'm not unsympathetic to Tony. It must have been terribly sad for the men like Tony who faced a life of loneliness and being outcast from the mainstream society, but I don't ever think that gives them the right to ruin an innocent person's life. No one deserves to be misled into marriage and forced to lead her own life of loneliness and self-doubt when she realizes her husband doesn't want her in physical way. When Tony shouted at his wife, "Because I wanted him!" did it even occur to him that she must have the same "wants," as he did and hers were going unmet?

I think the Tony's of the past simply didn't think about that when they looked into the eyes of an adoring girl and proposed marriage just to make life easier for themselves. She had the right to expect that the man she accepted in marriage would desire her as more than a baby making machine and unpaid housekeeper. It's the great big lie of it all that angers me. It's dragging another person into your own misery, without a thought for her feelings and without letting her in on the truth. He may have thought that marriage would "straighten" him out, but he had to know it was an experiment,at best. He had no right to experiment with her life. Now she's stuck for the rest of her life having to live as a celibate. Tony may live the same life but he knew what he was getting into.

I read a book by Rock Hudson's wife that was incredibly sad. She married in good faith, a handsome man she was head over heels in love with, and spent years and years wondering what she was doing wrong and why he didn't love her. Meanwhile Rock was out having fun, satisfying his own needs, treating her with resentment when he wasn't ignoring her.

I saw this happen to friends in the early 1980's when men started coming out of the closet. Here were forty year old women, beauty faded, suddenly left to spent the rest of their lives alone, with small chance of remarriage, while the men they had spent 20 years trying to please, were happily going forward to a wild, fun life at the gay bars. All the friends and neighbors saying wasn't in wonderful that he was finally finding happiness.

[txhorns79]

He knew he was gay and chose to marry, father a child and take such a risk. That's on him.

 

I don't condone the cheating, but that's making a pretty huge presumption to claim that he understood not only that he was gay, but that he understood he would always be attracted to men and never change prior to getting married and fathering a kid.   The guy is living in a time period where it's entirely accepted that he can simply go to therapy and will being gay away.  I feel terrible for his wife, as none of this is her fault.  She doesn't deserve to be with someone who won't love her the way she needs.  Having said that, he doesn't deserve to be shunned and treated as filth for doing what he did.    

 

 

However, the fact remains that what he did was in a public place with a man that I didn't hear consent to his advances. That would likely still be a crime today whether it was same sex or opposite sex.

 

If I recall correctly, the other guy was a plant whose purpose was specifically to give the impression to other men that he wanted to have sex with them, so the police could then catch them in the act. 

[QuelleC]

As for the wife.  No, she didn't "deserve" it but there were numerous references to how he liked his art and things clean and tidy and he smelled like lemons and she loved it.  I like her for loving him who for he is although insisting on the "therapy" is awful.  She just wants him to be there and to be a dad and she'll love him anyway.  Gay isn't always black and white and given the times as others have put it so well.  Yeah, the cop was a plant but 9 mos pregnant maybe he needed a little something.  The job stress played a factor too.  Those guys looked like they were wearing the same outfit.

[Capricasix]

WNED is showing the edited versions, too.

[Pjxf99]

I emailed my local pbs station asking if there's a reason for the edits. I'll post here if I get an answer.

 

I got a reply pretty much immediately saying they would look into it and forward my comments to the pbs people in charge of online programming.  So....we'll see!

Edited April 19, 2015 by Pjxf99

[dcalley]

If I may ask a favor, can you give an example of something that got cut? I watch on the PBS Roku channel and I'm trying to figure out whether they show the edited version or not. 

I have only seen the edited version (I just tried the Xfinity/Comcast On Demand version in the hopes it would be the full one, and no is the answer), but I recall something from the preview for this episode that I can't remember seeing. It's nothing major at all, just Nurse Crane saying something about feeling like she imagined the Irish patient because she can't find her. I also see from here and here that there is something about Trixie's drinking.

[Pjxf99]

For what its worth, this is the answer I got from someone in programming at my local PBS station:

 

"I did receive an answer from PBS - unfortunately the rights PBS had for the longer "uncut" UK versions were only available for stations during each episode's premiere broadcast (Sundays @ 8 pm) and they only have the rights to stream the US (or shorter) versions on their on demand service. PBS is assuring us that no significant footage is being cut - that it is just little pieces here and there"

 

 

[maraleia]

For what its worth, this is the answer I got from someone in programming at my local PBS station:

 

"I did receive an answer from PBS - unfortunately the rights PBS had for the longer "uncut" UK versions were only available for stations during each episode's premiere broadcast (Sundays @ 8 pm) and they only have the rights to stream the US (or shorter) versions on their on demand service. PBS is assuring us that no significant footage is being cut - that it is just little pieces here and there"

That's a crap reply because I record the premiere broadcast here in Chicago and they still edit stuff out on that broadcast.

[Beldasnoop]

Some stations are airing the uncut version for the premiere broadcast, and others are only airing the edited version. That's something else that I find very unfair.

 

The problem with a show like this is that the way it's structured makes the response that "no significant footage is being cut" kind of ridiculous, because almost everything is significant in some way. Something that may seem minor often has at least some reasonably significant impact to the story, character development or both. I can give specific examples of how these cuts affect the story this season, but that's probably best saved for the spoiler thread. Here's a case from a past season, though, just as a non-spoilery example. This is a situation where something might not be absolutely essential to the plot of the episode, but it makes things that happen later in the episode (and the season) make a whole lot more sense if you see the uncut version. It's from season 2:

 

In the first episode of season 2, there are two scenes that were cut revolving around then-Sister Bernadette's getting new glasses. There’s some season-long significance to these scenes regarding her overall story arc that would take some time to describe, but more immediately for the episode, it gets confusing because she appears in most scenes of the edited version wearing her old glasses, but then she suddenly shows up at the end (in close-up, sewing a button on Dr. Turner's coat) wearing a completely different pair of glasses with no explanation whatsoever.  That's one of the easiest to remember examples, but there were several strange cuts like that throughout seasons 2 and 3, and now in season 4 there are more.

 

In this season, there have been a few edits that I think have had impact on both the plots of the individual episodes and some of the season-long story arcs. I've already pointed out in this thread how the cut scene involving the Turners helped clarify an aspect of the Tony Amos plot in the episode. As far as season-long stories go, if you want more details on how the cuts this season affect the show and don't mind being partially spoiled, I've posted something about that in the spoiler thread already, so you can read it there if you want.  I can post more details there if anyone asks, as well.

 

I don't know who is in charge of editing the show. I can't believe it's the show writers or producers because some of the edits make very little sense and, in my opinion, actually hurt the story.  I can't believe the show writers would do that to their own show. I also don't know why PBS would only have rights to an edited version of the show. Why wouldn't they want to get the rights to the whole show? This makes very little sense to me.  Also, the DVDs are uncut, so I guess they have different rights?  

Edited April 22, 2015 by Beldasnoop

[QuelleC]

Don't blame PBS.  The BBC has complete control over how and where their shows air.  That's why we see the Downton Abbey christmas show in February and I understand those are edited too.  The BBC just pulled several of their classic shows from Netflix.  I heard the owners of Seinfeld just made an obscene sounding deal to air those 20 year old shows online on Amazon.  Owners make the rules.

 

I think my local PBS in NE WI shows the uncut shows.  The last episodes are 1:05.  Does that sound right? As much as we hate it I think it has to do with the American tradition of starting shows on the hour and half hour and they think it will be more marketable.  They don't worry about that so much in England.

[Beldasnoop]

The BBC shows are aired in the UK without commercials. They run approximately 1 hour. The PBS version is cut to about 53 minutes so they can fit promos and extra features into their one hour time slot. Apparently, some stations this year have decided to extend the show's time slot to 1:05 so that they can still fit promos in there while showing the uncut version. Other stations, however, choose to show the edited version. 

 

I'm not sure if the show's producers have anything to do with the edits, at least with this show. I know Masterpiece's FAQ says the producers of those shows oversee the edits, but Call the Midwife is not a Masterpiece show. They did say something on their Facebook page about the CtM team not being responsible for station-break edits (it was in reply to someone's comment), so I'm not sure if that means the "official" edited version or additional edits. The editing seems to have to do with what PBS can fit into their schedule and still have room for their promos and such. The Christmas specials, which run approximately 77 minutes, are not edited because they can fit into a one-and-a-half hour slot and still include time for the PBS extras. The BBC has nothing to do with Downton Abbey. That's an ITV show in the UK. ITV has commercial breaks in their shows, so they don't run as long as BBC shows. Also, Downton Abbey actually has extra scenes added for the US broadcast rather than being cut (for the regular episodes--I'm not sure about the Christmas specials).  

Edited April 22, 2015 by Beldasnoop

[dcalley]

From AfterEllen.com, this made me laugh.

 

Would totally change her mind if the rats got into the cake

[Pjxf99]

I agree with the above comments that nothing in this show is 'unimportant'.  I wonder if we all email/tweet/FB PBS that might do something? emailing my local affiliate isn't going to help, they have nothing to do with it.

[Portia]

Per all the comments about the show getting preachy...IMO it's always been preachy and heavy-handed, with characters who make sudden, miraculous turnarounds that tie everything up in a nice bow. Can't tell you how many times I've ended an episode with a quip like, "Oh, good, I'm so glad they solved racism (or whatever). I just don't mind it, I guess.

[panthergirl13]

I saw this happen to friends in the early 1980's when men started coming out of the closet. Here were forty year old women, beauty faded, suddenly left to spent the rest of their lives alone, with small chance of remarriage, while the men they had spent 20 years trying to please, were happily going forward to a wild, fun life at the gay bars. All the friends and neighbors saying wasn't in wonderful that he was finally finding happiness.

Unfortunately a lot of those men ended up dead.

 

My two best friends from childhood were always a couple and got married shortly after high school. He (in retrospect) was clearly gay, but married her because he desperately wanted children. She outed him before that ever happened, but they remained living together because there was a deep love there. They just lived separate lives as roommates would do. She was shattered, but understood what had happened. Sadly he was claimed by the first wave of AIDS as were so many others we knew.

 

Re this episode, I didn't find it odd at all that Tony would marry this woman and impregnate her. Plenty of gay men want to be fathers (and can thankfully do that now). What DID bother me was the stereotyping re the parlor, the painting and the piano. Poppycock!

[lucindabelle]

Yes, yes, yes!  I used to love this heartwarming show about a group of midwives/nuns who delivered babies in the 1950's. If I want to watch a show about political correctness, I will watch news programs and documentaries. When I watch TV at the end of a long day, I want to leave behind controversy and pettiness and be entertained.  A little lesson learned once in a while is fine--I have learned a great deal from this show about how different birth defects were once handled. Hopefully, they will get back to what made this show so good in previous seasons and give us more of the midwives--I miss Cynthia, Chummy, and Sister Evangelina too!  

 

As for Tony, I found him to be incredibly selfish. He made a choice to marry, and his wife was about to give birth.  He then commits an illegal act (whether it should have been illegal is irrelevant) in public, yet he acted like he was the victim the whole time. Oh Tony, you had no idea you were gay until after you got married and got your wife pregnant? How about instead of whining about everything, you just do your best to be a good father to your child?  Hate, hate the fact the show tried to manipulate us emotionally by making us feel sorry for a guy who was ultimately a self-centered person.

These are good points.

It's the 1960s, not the 1860s. He is not Oscar Wilde having a revelation only after he's married.

Kind of like when on various competitions shows (looking at you, so you think you can dance) people give handicaps and ovations to addicts who've recovered.

Meanwhile the person who was never an addict in the first place, or never a gang member, or never in jail.,, but maybe also faced hardships... Crickets.

And the retrofitting of both homosexuality and antisemitism on Downton Abbey and on the second version of upstairs, downstairs drove me spare.

Actually I had to stop watching call the midwife after the red string around the Jewish baby whose grandmother escaped the "nazi ghetto" (hello those were mainly death camps not ghettos) with all her photographs in silver frames.

[anna0852]

The Nazi's had mutiple ghettos all throughout Eastern Europe. They used them as a way to concentrate the Jewish population before shipping them to the death camps. Look up the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.