Lifetime's VC Andrews Movies Topic (Flowers In The Attic, The Dollangangers, The Casteels, etc) - General Discussion

[Scarlett45]

34 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

Luke being sweet reminded me how I use to wonder what would have happened if Leigh lived. Would Luke shape up to prove he was worthy of Leigh? or continue cheating and eventually both becoming bitter due to the harsh realities of poverty and Luke's weaknesses? Luke was a good husband and father to Stacy and Drake, but he was older then and had money.

I don’t think it was realistic that Luke turned into this amazing husband to Stacey and Dad to Drake after he sold Fanny (his own biological daughter) to be raped by the creepy Reverend. I think Luke was attracted to Leigh and wanted to play night in shinning armor. Yes he would’ve continued to cheat (isn’t Tom only 5 months younger than Heaven?, and Kitty was also pregnant with his child right around the time he married Leigh) and the stress of poverty would’ve destroyed their relationship. 

Perhaps Leigh would’ve written to her grandmother after Heaven was born and gone to live with her to get away from Luke. 

[andromeda331]

Just now, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t think it was realistic that Luke turned into this amazing husband to Stacey and Dad to Drake after he sold Fanny (his own biological daughter) to be raped by the creepy Reverend. I think Luke was attracted to Leigh and wanted to play night in shinning armor. Yes he would’ve continued to cheat (isn’t Tom only 5 months younger than Heaven?, and Kitty was also pregnant with his child right around the time he married Leigh) and the stress of poverty would’ve destroyed their relationship. 

Perhaps Leigh would’ve written to her grandmother after Heaven was born and gone to live with her to get away from Luke. 

It really wasn't. He was horrible up until he married Stacey and Drake was born to everyone he cheated on his beloved Angel despite him supposedly loving her the most, his horrible treatment to Heaven and all of his children, selling them, selling Heaven and Fanny to rapists, Tom to a man who used him as a work horse, was going to rape Heaven if Toby hadn't said anything, cheated on and treated Sara bad, got STDS which lead to the death of his and Sarah's 5th baby, most likely molested or worse to Fanny, was drunk all the time, rarely worked or did anything to actually improve things or feed his starving family, got Kitty pregnant and didn't help her, he sold Heaven to her there's no way he didn't know she was crazy, but suddenly he meets Stacy and all that is fixed? He grows up, marries her, never cheats on her and works? Also if he was suddenly so great and changed, why didn't he ever send for Fanny? I don't buy it. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

14 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Also didn't Jillian get an iron-clad prenup or something that would give her huge amounts of money if Tony divorced her

Yes, Jillian had a prenup that said she would get half of Tony's money if they divorced.

1 hour ago, Snow Apple said:

Luke being sweet reminded me how I use to wonder what would have happened if Leigh lived. Would Luke shape up to prove he was worthy of Leigh? or continue cheating and eventually both becoming bitter due to the harsh realities of poverty and Luke's weaknesses? Luke was a good husband and father to Stacy and Drake, but he was older then and had money.

It's an interesting question and although I know people hate that Luke later became a good husband/father to Stacy and Drake, sometimes that happens in real life. I'm not excusing any of Luke's behavior because he was definitely a selfish asshole, but he was pretty young when he met Leigh (I think in the books he was 17) so it's not like he was an emotionally mature man at that point. He was a teenager who didn't know how to be a husband. Then his wife died and he dealt with his grief by drinking and cheating on his wife in between his sporadic jobs. By the time he married Stacy, he was in this 30s and he had gotten sober. Again, I am NOT making excuses for him but I can see how a drunk teenager who is always scrambling for enough money to feed his famiily eventually grows up to be a 30 year old man who is kind to his new wife and son.

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

isn’t Tom only 5 months younger than Heaven?

Yes, Tom is only four months younger than Heaven so he definitely slept with Sarah while Leigh was pregnant. In one of the books, Sarah says that she pursued him aggressively and they had sex maybe three times when she got pregnant. But if I recall correctly, Sarah wasn't much older than Leigh. Some time after the stillborn baby, Heaven mentions that Sarah is only 28 but looks much older. Luke sold the kids when Heaven was 14 (two months before turned 15) so Sarah was about 14 when Tom was born.

[Ohiopirate02]

I know its 2019, but I was laughing at the casting of Leigh's friends during her party.  There is no way that Leigh knew that many African Americans in 1960s Boston.   She's a WASP, and her friends and acquaintances would also be WASPs.  

[Scarlett45]

44 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It's an interesting question and although I know people hate that Luke later became a good husband/father to Stacy and Drake, sometimes that happens in real life. I'm not excusing any of Luke's behavior because he was definitely a selfish asshole, but he was pretty young when he met Leigh (I think in the books he was 17) so it's not like he was an emotionally mature man at that point. He was a teenager who didn't know how to be a husband. Then his wife died and he dealt with his grief by drinking and cheating on his wife in between his sporadic jobs. By the time he married Stacy, he was in this 30s and he had gotten sober. Again, I am NOT making excuses for him but I can see how a drunk teenager who is always scrambling for enough money to feed his famiily eventually grows up to be a 30 year old man who is kind to his new wife and son.

He wasn’t just a cheating unemployed drunk when he was young and immature. He wanted to rape Heaven (a girl he was raising has his daughter), likely molested Fanny (his biological daughter) and SOLD all of his children, including said biological daughter to be raped and impregnated against her will. That type of moral turpitude crosses a line from “I was immature and made bad choices”(like cheating or drinking too much) to “I’m an evil piece of shit and an awful excuse for a human being.” 

I can see age and experience causing someone to turn against poor choices and be more thoughtful/empathetic, but if you’re an evil piece of shit in your teens/20s, you’re likely to be one in your 30s. 

[Scarlett45]

I think my favorite of these movies were 

Fallen Hearts, Web of Dreams, Dark Angel, Heaven, Gates of Paradise. 

Its hard to believe it was four years ago they did this with the Dollanganger Series. I want another series, the snark with you all was worth it. 

[Kiki777]

I know! As craptastic as these movies were, it was great fun to watch them and then come here and read everyone's comments and snark.  I'm sad it's over.

I did also read the Dawn and Ruby series but don't know if they were popular enough to have movies based on them.  Though, after seeing the casting disasters here, they would probably hire two very different-looking people to play Ruby and her twin Giselle.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

15 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

He wasn’t just a cheating unemployed drunk when he was young and immature. He wanted to rape Heaven (a girl he was raising has his daughter), likely molested Fanny (his biological daughter) and SOLD all of his children, including said biological daughter to be raped and impregnated against her will. That type of moral turpitude crosses a line from “I was immature and made bad choices”(like cheating or drinking too much) to “I’m an evil piece of shit and an awful excuse for a human being.” 

I can see age and experience causing someone to turn against poor choices and be more thoughtful/empathetic, but if you’re an evil piece of shit in your teens/20s, you’re likely to be one in your 30s. 

I totally agree that young Luke was a horrible father, a horrible husband, and a horrible person, and it's true that if you're an asshole now, you'll probably be an asshole ten years from now. I'm just saying that some (not all) people do change for the better so I don't find it completely impossible to believe that Luke was one of the few who turned himself around. I think it also helped that by the time he married Stacy, he was sober and had a more stable lifestyle.

FWIW, I never thought he molested Fanny.

 

On 8/25/2019 at 2:59 AM, andromeda331 said:

they could have just used the same actress for Heaven and Leigh. Annie too just use wigs for the different hair color. 

Wigs would have solved the hair color problem entirely (even with different actresses). I'm still mad about Heaven being a ginger instead of having dark Casteel hair and then Leigh having dark hair instead of silvery blonde hair. Wigs don't cost that much, you guys!

On top of that, Leigh is supposed to look a lot like Jillian and not only do these actresses look nothing alike, but again the hair issue - Jillian is blonde but Leigh is brunette. Part of the reason that Leigh appealed to Tony was that she looked so much like Jillian.

Annie was only on my screen for like ten seconds before she reminded me how much I hate her vocal fry. Girl, you are an actress so your voice is one of your instruments. Learn how to speak properly!

I also didn't like the actress playing Jillian. Kelly Rutherford had Jillian's cool personality down perfectly but this actress was not right for the part. She was not a good actress either.

I didn't care for the way Jillian was written for this movie either. Book Jillian was a lot more subtle about her social climbing and her need to look young. She was also a stealthy bitch but she wouldn't outright insult a party guest the way movie Jillian did.

They really aged up both Leigh and Troy for this movie, which is understandable. It's unclear how old Leigh was supposed to be but if she was having a coming out party, then she was probably 16 aka old enough to get married off. Of course, this created another problem because if Tony thinks Jillian is 28, how does he think that she had Leigh when she was a teenager? In the books, Leigh was 12 when she met Tony which would mean Jillian was allegedly 16. As Jillian pointed out, that was plausible. But now that they've aged Leigh up, does Tony really believe that Jillian was 13-14 when she had Leigh?

Ha, I laughed SO HARD when Leigh said that the mural was the most beautiful thing she'd ever seen (and this after Luke recoiled when he saw it). Instead of the beautiful fairy tale mural of the book, we got a comic book looking painting by the brick wall.

In the books, Jillian didn't sleep with Tony until after the wedding, which is one of the reasons he was so hot for her. Jillian and Cleave kept up appearances in front of Leigh and in public (well, until that last cruise) because they were East Coast WASPS.

Tony was also a bit too aggressive. in this movie. In the books, he didn't start blatantly grooming Leigh until after the wedding (aka after he found out that Jillian wasn't going to have sex with him constantly). I think that in the books, are pretty as he found Leigh, he had no intention of going after her until later.

In addition, book Tony was smart/manipulative enough to go slowly and build trust with Leigh and then escalating his grossness. He also didn't lose his temper in front of her very often, unlike movie Tony who was yelling, throwing shit, and raging out way too often.

I'm not saying that book Tony was better though, just that the way he gradually upped the ante in his abuse made it a lot more understandable why Leigh was reluctant to tell anyone (especially after Jillian blew off her concerns, which of course made sense since she set the whole thing up to avoid having sex with Tony).

I hate that they made Leigh modeling for the doll all Tony's idea instead of Jillian's. I also hated Jillian's blatant and paranoid jealousy of Leigh.

Tony also made no goddamn sense when he spoke. "Look at the detail [in Jillian's mural] - passion and authority in every brushstroke. That's what makes it beautiful, Leigh, even great. I learned that toymaking, and it's corroborated tonight by your stunning presence in that dress." WTF? That was just a bunch of word diarrhea.

In the book, Leigh was determined not to let Cleave know that he was not her biological father because she thought it would break his heart.

Ugh, there were too many differences from the book to keep listing.

On the plus side, no Jason Priestley!

[Snow Apple]

Luke selling his children is a horrific act. He could have turned them over to the state. He seemed to deliberately set up the older children which is what made it evil. What would have happened if bad people offered more money for Keith and Our Jane than the couple who brought them?

[TattleTeeny]

Why did the mural feature a blood-soaked clown?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

14 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

Why did the mural feature a blood-soaked clown?

Apparently Lifetime read the description of Jillian's fairy tale mural ("shadowed woods with sunlight drizzling through winding paths leading into misty mountain ranges topped with castles," "a painted sky overheard with birds flying and a man riding a magic carpet and another mystical airy castle half hidden by clouds") as CLOWN WITH HIS THROAT SLIT. I loved that they zoomed in on the creepy clown just to make sure that no one missed it.

[andromeda331]

21 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

Luke selling his children is a horrific act. He could have turned them over to the state. He seemed to deliberately set up the older children which is what made it evil. What would have happened if bad people offered more money for Keith and Our Jane than the couple who brought them?

Yes! He could have done exactly that. Turn them over to the state. Its really more of a miracle that Keith and Our Jane ended up with decent people seeing how Fanny and Heaven ended up with rapists and Tom ended up with a man who used him as a work horse then Luke managing to find one couple who wouldn't abuse his kids.  

[Ohiopirate02]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yes! He could have done exactly that. Turn them over to the state. Its really more of a miracle that Keith and Our Jane ended up with decent people seeing how Fanny and Heaven ended up with rapists and Tom ended up with a man who used him as a work horse then Luke managing to find one couple who wouldn't abuse his kids.  

I have often wondered what would have happened to Heaven if she had picked the older couple instead of Kitty and Cal.  Would they have treated her better or worse?  Would Heaven have sought out her mother's family if she lived with them?  I am curious as to why that was cut from the movie.  

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yes! He could have done exactly that. Turn them over to the state. Its really more of a miracle that Keith and Our Jane ended up with decent people seeing how Fanny and Heaven ended up with rapists and Tom ended up with a man who used him as a work horse then Luke managing to find one couple who wouldn't abuse his kids.  

Given that Keith and Our Jane were the littlest I’m not surprised people wanted them for “decent” reasons. Younger children tend to do better in foster/adoption situations, not that younger children don’t end up in abusive households, but people who actually want to be caregivers/parents to kids in need often prefer younger children.

Has anyone seen the movie (based on a true story) called “Who Will Love My Children?” About a woman who got all 10 of her children into adoption placements before she died from breast cancer (her husband had a drinking/employment problem and she feared the kids would just get taken once she died). Kids aged 14- to toddlers, her youngest children found homes first, and an elderly couple took on her eldest daughter. The middle boys were hard to place, especially her  son with epilepsy who had to live in an institution for mentally disabled kids for a while (he was not mentally disabled) until the couple who adopted his brother agreed to adopt him.

Adolescents (male and female) are especially vulnerable to sexual abuse and exploitation. When our economy was more agricultural/physical labor based young men were wanted for their muscles, best case young girls are used as domestic help/caregivers for less than honorable people who wouldn’t go to the level of abuse like the Rev. 

If Luke handed them over to the state they would’ve still be split up and he wouldn’t have profited from it. He cared about money and that was it. If he cared about the kids AT ALL he would’ve left them together with Grandpa and just sent money back home. Heaven would’ve tried to hold it together. 

[Snow Apple]

I wondered about the other couple too, which is why I got the impression Luke set them up. Why was Heaven given a choice? He must have known Kitty was nuts and have a vendetta against Leigh, and thus her daughter. Who wouldn't choose the young fun couple? Luke must have known that.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Snow Apple said:

I wondered about the other couple too, which is why I got the impression Luke set them up. Why was Heaven given a choice? He must have known Kitty was nuts and have a vendetta against Leigh, and thus her daughter. Who wouldn't choose the young fun couple? Luke must have known that.

Maybe he resented Heaven for living and Leigh dying and wanted her to suffer?!

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I have often wondered what would have happened to Heaven if she had picked the older couple instead of Kitty and Cal.  Would they have treated her better or worse?  Would Heaven have sought out her mother's family if she lived with them?  I am curious as to why that was cut from the movie.  

5 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

I wondered about the other couple too, which is why I got the impression Luke set them up. Why was Heaven given a choice? He must have known Kitty was nuts and have a vendetta against Leigh, and thus her daughter. Who wouldn't choose the young fun couple? Luke must have known that.

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Maybe he resented Heaven for living and Leigh dying and wanted her to suffer?!

Oh, he definitely did resent Heaven for living. That was the whole reason he hated her and treated her like crap. He blamed her for Angel's death.  I wouldn't be surprised if he set up Heaven to pick the young couple. He gives her choice but conveniently leaves out his own history with Kitty and that she's insane. Amazing that he forgets that part. Its like when he finds out Heaven has found her mother's family and is going to Boston to meet them. Conveniently he once again leaves out important information. Twice he just happens to send Heaven to a couple where the woman is crazy and husband is a rapist. There's no way he didn't know what the Rev was like ( plus I have no doubt that he knew plus he probably seen the Rev at Shirley's Place). 

 

7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Given that Keith and Our Jane were the littlest I’m not surprised people wanted them for “decent” reasons. Younger children tend to do better in foster/adoption situations, not that younger children don’t end up in abusive households, but people who actually want to be caregivers/parents to kids in need often prefer younger children.

Has anyone seen the movie (based on a true story) called “Who Will Love My Children?” About a woman who got all 10 of her children into adoption placements before she died from breast cancer (her husband had a drinking/employment problem and she feared the kids would just get taken once she died). Kids aged 14- to toddlers, her youngest children found homes first, and an elderly couple took on her eldest daughter. The middle boys were hard to place, especially her  son with epilepsy who had to live in an institution for mentally disabled kids for a while (he was not mentally disabled) until the couple who adopted his brother agreed to adopt him.

Adolescents (male and female) are especially vulnerable to sexual abuse and exploitation. When our economy was more agricultural/physical labor based young men were wanted for their muscles, best case young girls are used as domestic help/caregivers for less than honorable people who wouldn’t go to the level of abuse like the Rev. 

If Luke handed them over to the state they would’ve still be split up and he wouldn’t have profited from it. He cared about money and that was it. If he cared about the kids AT ALL he would’ve left them together with Grandpa and just sent money back home. Heaven would’ve tried to hold it together. 

Unfortunately, you right. 

[Daisy]

Why am I not surprised that they got the prenup wrong?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

8 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I have often wondered what would have happened to Heaven if she had picked the older couple instead of Kitty and Cal.  Would they have treated her better or worse?  Would Heaven have sought out her mother's family if she lived with them?  I am curious as to why that was cut from the movie.  

I think that Heaven would have wanted to look for her mother's family no matter what. The fact that Leigh died and Heaven knew very little about her would have been enough motivation for a lot of kids to search for their birth mother's family. On top of that, growing up poor and knowing that Leigh's family was rich added a layer of fantasy that they would be the opposite of hillbillies and even kids who aren't totally poor dream about what it would be like to live in a castle and be rich enough to have all the toys and clothes and food they could ever want.

The older couple sounded a bit uptight and WASPy so I think at best they would have treated her politely but not affectionately. Worst case, she would be in the same position as Fanny (a publicly pious man raping her). I think it's most likely that they would have been strict and a bit distant but not overtly abusive.

I still think regardless of how kind or cruel any adoptive parents would have been, Heaven still would have wanted to find Leigh's family.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think that Heaven would have wanted to look for her mother's family no matter what. The fact that Leigh died and Heaven knew very little about her would have been enough motivation for a lot of kids to search for their birth mother's family. On top of that, growing up poor and knowing that Leigh's family was rich added a layer of fantasy that they would be the opposite of hillbillies and even kids who aren't totally poor dream about what it would be like to live in a castle and be rich enough to have all the toys and clothes and food they could ever want.

The older couple sounded a bit uptight and WASPy so I think at best they would have treated her politely but not affectionately. Worst case, she would be in the same position as Fanny (a publicly pious man raping her). I think it's most likely that they would have been strict and a bit distant but not overtly abusive.

I still think regardless of how kind or cruel any adoptive parents would have been, Heaven still would have wanted to find Leigh's family.

I don't know. She was determine to find her mother's family and meet them especially after she learned they had money. But I'm not so sure she would have gone if she knew her grandmother's husband raped her mother which resulted in her. Heaven went to them not knowing anything and both blaming Leigh for running off. But they didn't seem so bad to her and she didn't know the danger she was in. Its possible she might still have gone given how much she wanted to get a good education and go to college. At very least she would have know right of the bat what they were really like.  At very least Luke could have warn her. Or have him not know until after she left that she tracked them down and was on her way to see them. Leigh ran away for a reason and he knew it but he lets Leigh's daughter go without any warning? Oh, and he was happy to accept money from Tony to buy that circus in exchange from staying out of Heaven's life. 

[TattleTeeny]

Awww, maybe the old people were nice and fun, but they went overboard trying to look serious and responsible because they saw that they had competition! 

But if Luke did want to make sure Heaven chose Kitty, why would he even take the chance that she wouldn't by throwing another couple in there?

[Daisy]

so I finished web of dreams, and i had to say - it was good. but i think they really missed the plot (go figure) on what made this book really good, heartbreaking  - the fact that Jillian set Leigh up. it wasn't just that Tony was a child molester, it wasn't that she was all alone - it was that leigh figured out what her mother did and threw it in her face and then split. 

also the fact that they messed up the pre-nup was just... insane that was key because Jillian could take like what 1/2 of everything - and that's why Tony never left her (regardless of his feelings). not that if SHE left Tony. which explains so much in the earlier books. 

buuuuut. yah. 
it was good. 

[Snow Apple]

2 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

Awww, maybe the old people were nice and fun, but they went overboard trying to look serious and responsible because they saw that they had competition! 

But if Luke did want to make sure Heaven chose Kitty, why would he even take the chance that she wouldn't by throwing another couple in there?

That's what's so puzzling. Why give Heaven a chance of choosing the other couple? Are they just as bad or worse? Or did Luke have a teeny tiny itty bitty bit of pity due to his "love" for Leigh?

He sure didn't gave his own natural children a choice though.

That's what I like about VC Andrews. Like life, questions don't always have pat answers. Like what happened to Miss Deale? I still don't know the truth about Cory. Was his body really in a hidden room or was Cathy bluffing to torture her mother into the truth?

That's why I hate the ghostwriter's childish by-the-numbers writings.

[CountryGirl]

I still liked Fallen Hearts better, which isn't all that huge of a compliment, considering the rest of whatever that was that passed for movies, but I would rate Web of Dreams in 2nd place. 

The hair color still bugs as Leigh's silvery blond was so iconic that Heaven and Annie dyed their hair to match Leigh's for a time. 

It especially grates because there were so many details relative to the clothing/cars, etc., that they got spot-on in terms of the time periods. Except, as noted upthread, the inclusion of AA characters at Leigh's birthday party. In 1950s Boston? Don't think so and especially not with snobby Jillian afoot.

The actor who played young Troy was too old for the part but he was far better-suited than older Troy. I bought the friendship between him and Leigh.

The tantrums and accelerated creeping aside, I found the actor who played young Tony fairly close to how I envisioned him. Except for his petite stature, but I guess they had to go with that with tiny Jason Priestly as older Tony (and I'm still laughing about them using the actor who played Jason in the movie about 90210 BTS). 

I hated that they changed the plot to Cleave knowing all along he wasn't Leigh's father, although Jillian's threatened legal action against him/hiding the letters, etc., helped explain his absence from Leigh's life so much more than in the book where he basically met Mildred Piece (really, ghostwriter?) and ditched Leigh.

I liked how accepting Annie and Toby were of Leigh, which was similar to the book, but she wasn't showing yet and they were already married before they arrived in Winnerow. I always had a soft spot for them, except where their foolishness regarding their son was concerned. 

 

On 8/21/2019 at 7:55 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Unlike Annie and Luke, Cathy and Chris were not always drawn to each other. For the first half or so of FITA, they have a normal sibling relationship where they squabble and fight and don't really see each other much differently than they see Corey and Carrie. It's the trauma of everything their mother and grandmother do to them that pushes them together. As Cathy says many times, Chris would never be able to trust another woman after what their mother did to them.

As for Cathy, all you have to do is look at her other non-Chris relationships to see that she was just as damaged. There was abusive rapist Julian, father figure Paul who was more than twice her age, and her mother's husband Bart. Not exactly the healthiest choices. And really, she was with Julian and Paul because she thought it would free Chris from loving her and let him try to let him live a normal life with someone else.

Is it wrong that I think out of all of Cathy's relationships, the one with Chris was the most healthy?

Paul adopted her, Chris, and Carrie, but was perving on her the second he laid eyes on her and had her on his lap, fondling her (gag!) when she was only 16 years old and wearing lingerie he GAVE her. That wasn't romance, Cathy, that was molestation. I need a Silkwood shower just thinking about that.

Julian raped her and beat her and tried to ruin her dance career (and quite frankly, he did since she never danced professionally again).

And Bart...also raped her on their first date and was cheating with her on his wife simply because he could. Corrine was a monster but he didn't know that. He just wanted to have his cake and eat it, too.

[Scarlett45]

On 8/28/2019 at 3:04 PM, CountryGirl said:

I still liked Fallen Hearts better, which isn't all that huge of a compliment, considering the rest of whatever that was that passed for movies, but I would rate Web of Dreams in 2nd place. 

The hair color still bugs as Leigh's silvery blond was so iconic that Heaven and Annie dyed their hair to match Leigh's for a time. 

It especially grates because there were so many details relative to the clothing/cars, etc., that they got spot-on in terms of the time periods. Except, as noted upthread, the inclusion of AA characters at Leigh's birthday party. In 1950s Boston? Don't think so and especially not with snobby Jillian afoot.

The actor who played young Troy was too old for the part but he was far better-suited than older Troy. I bought the friendship between him and Leigh.

The tantrums and accelerated creeping aside, I found the actor who played young Tony fairly close to how I envisioned him. Except for his petite stature, but I guess they had to go with that with tiny Jason Priestly as older Tony (and I'm still laughing about them using the actor who played Jason in the movie about 90210 BTS). 

I hated that they changed the plot to Cleave knowing all along he wasn't Leigh's father, although Jillian's threatened legal action against him/hiding the letters, etc., helped explain his absence from Leigh's life so much more than in the book where he basically met Mildred Piece (really, ghostwriter?) and ditched Leigh.

I liked how accepting Annie and Toby were of Leigh, which was similar to the book, but she wasn't showing yet and they were already married before they arrived in Winnerow. I always had a soft spot for them, except where their foolishness regarding their son was concerned. 

Is it wrong that I think out of all of Cathy's relationships, the one with Chris was the most healthy?

Paul adopted her, Chris, and Carrie, but was perving on her the second he laid eyes on her and had her on his lap, fondling her (gag!) when she was only 16 years old and wearing lingerie he GAVE her. That wasn't romance, Cathy, that was molestation. I need a Silkwood shower just thinking about that.

Julian raped her and beat her and tried to ruin her dance career (and quite frankly, he did since she never danced professionally again).

And Bart...also raped her on their first date and was cheating with her on his wife simply because he could. Corrine was a monster but he didn't know that. He just wanted to have his cake and eat it, too.

I definitely agree with you. I think of all of Cathy’s romantic relationships Chris was the most loving and mutually invested. Cathy and Chris falling in love after the years in the attic was something I 100% understood. And they didn’t start living as a couple until having children was off the table. I’m fine with it. 

[nilyank]

On 8/28/2019 at 10:15 AM, Daisy said:

also the fact that they messed up the pre-nup was just... insane that was key because Jillian could take like what 1/2 of everything - and that's why Tony never left her (regardless of his feelings). not that if SHE left Tony. which explains so much in the earlier books. 

I don't remember but why would Tony draw up and sign that prenup? He was richer and more powerful. Did he want Jillian so much that he was willing to give her half of his wealth in order for her to marry him?

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, nilyank said:

I don't remember but why would Tony draw up and sign that prenup? He was richer and more powerful. Did he want Jillian so much that he was willing to give her half of his wealth in order for her to marry him?

He did. But he was also really young. He believed everything Jillian said and was guided by love, lust and youth. Jillian did a good job convincing him before they were married. It wasn't until the disaster honeymoon that he started to get a clue that she was lying. He even believed she was in her 20s when she was in her 40s. Although he really should have just divorced her, swallowed the loss and focus on his work. He and Troy probably could have recovered that much money. 

[jmonique]

Finally catching up on the movies by skimming through them.

It's superficial I know, and I know V.C. Andrews perhaps set some unrealistic standards with her characters, but I can't get over how incredibly plain faced all of the younger actors are, from Heaven and Logan and Fanny to Leigh and Young Luke. I could stomach the terrible acting if they were at least beautiful people, but wow. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by jmonique

[Scarlett45]

Guys!!! The Landry Series is coming!!

 

https://www.tvinsider.com/910337/lauralee-bell-vc-andrews-landry-lifetime/

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Guys!!! The Landry Series is coming!!

 

https://www.tvinsider.com/910337/lauralee-bell-vc-andrews-landry-lifetime/

I'm surprised they skipped over Dawn. But I'm interested to see what Ruby looks like. That series always felt perfect for Lifetime. 

[Daisy]

Awww man they skipped over Dawn?! 

But bring on the Landrys!

[JAYJAY1979]

Laura Lee bell as Daphne..I can see it.

[qtpye]

On 8/7/2019 at 4:31 AM, andromeda331 said:

It was really stupid on the ghost writer's part. Why include the letter? There's no need only to show that Tony knew all along which he really didn't. Then again this is the man who couldn't keep details write from Flowers in the Attic when he finished Garden of Shadows and after writing that Ruby's mother's name was Gabrielle in four books suddenly became Gabriel the last one that told her story. Heaven lied either so they wouldn't think badly of her mother for being pregnant already or try and make it sound like Leigh had a much better life after she left then she did. I don't remember which. It was stupid although she didn't know the importance of it although Luke could have told her before going too or leave out that he knew Leigh's daughter was going to Boston to stay with her mother's rapist. 

Do you think Jillian was really into Tony or just into him because he was younger and had a lot more money? Later its definitely clear she's only into Tony's money and all it can give her and keep her young and beautiful. She seemed really into Tony in the beginning but that seemed to dye off real quickly. But who knows maybe that's what she did to land Cleave and pass her baby off as his. Then after the marriage drop it. It worked once before and she certainly knew enough to make sure Tony couldn't divorce her. Or she could love him the way any narcissist loves someone.  

 

On 8/7/2019 at 9:34 AM, Moxie Cat said:

Question I've always wondered: did VC intend for Chris and Corinne to be half-siblings? I've always wondered this because this fact never comes up (that I recall) in Flowers, Petals, Thorns, and Seeds. It's only ever mentioned that they were uncle/niece. I read Garden of Shadows first and always wondered why "the Grandmother" never threw this secret in Corinne's face at an opportune moment in Flowers or Petals.

 

On 8/7/2019 at 5:55 PM, andromeda331 said:

I can't believe I forgot this. But Jillian knew who Heaven was the whole time even before the stupid letter. Leigh told Jillian she was pregnant she kept yelling at her mother that she was going to be a grandmother and none of her beauty stuff will change that before she ran away. I guess she could have assumed Leigh lost the baby, but that seems unlikely even with Heaven lying about her age Jillian had to know exactly who she was.

 

On 8/19/2019 at 5:13 PM, Snow Apple said:

I saw clips of Web of Dreams and thought "Is that Jason Priestley? Why does he look so young?!" I swear we all went back in time.

Came here and found out it's another actor. Who previously played Jason Priestley. LOL 

 

On 8/19/2019 at 8:31 PM, BitterApple said:

It was mine as well. Leigh's story was so tragic. Selfish narcissist for a mother, a father too preoccupied with his business interests and a stepfather who was a total pervert. She was so naive and sheltered, she was practically a sitting duck for a loser like Luke Casteel. 

 

On 8/19/2019 at 9:42 PM, Snow Apple said:

I don't remember what happened to Leigh's father. Did he just disappear from the picture? They adored each other......then nothing. Was he still alive when Heaven showed up?

 

On 8/24/2019 at 5:20 PM, andromeda331 said:

I've wondered if that was the case too. We really could have skipped Annie's book nothing happened and nothing was revealed. Web of Dreams I liked a lot but it also revealed that Jillian didn't only know about all of it and that Leigh was pregnant but she set it up. There was a lot left for them to do a book from Jillian's point of view including who Leigh's father really was and setting up Cleave. Maybe Leigh's bio dad was the reason she did what  she did in both cases. Maybe he promised her riches and take care of her and bolted after she said she was pregnant. Maybe he dumped her for a younger and more beautiful woman.  

 

On 8/24/2019 at 8:56 PM, TotalHellion said:

Why does Leigh have brown hair?! Leigh had blonde hair. 

 

On 8/25/2019 at 5:34 PM, andromeda331 said:

It really wasn't. He was horrible up until he married Stacey and Drake was born to everyone he cheated on his beloved Angel despite him supposedly loving her the most, his horrible treatment to Heaven and all of his children, selling them, selling Heaven and Fanny to rapists, Tom to a man who used him as a work horse, was going to rape Heaven if Toby hadn't said anything, cheated on and treated Sara bad, got STDS which lead to the death of his and Sarah's 5th baby, most likely molested or worse to Fanny, was drunk all the time, rarely worked or did anything to actually improve things or feed his starving family, got Kitty pregnant and didn't help her, he sold Heaven to her there's no way he didn't know she was crazy, but suddenly he meets Stacy and all that is fixed? He grows up, marries her, never cheats on her and works? Also if he was suddenly so great and changed, why didn't he ever send for Fanny? I don't buy it. 

 

On 9/2/2019 at 6:27 PM, andromeda331 said:

He did. But he was also really young. He believed everything Jillian said and was guided by love, lust and youth. Jillian did a good job convincing him before they were married. It wasn't until the disaster honeymoon that he started to get a clue that she was lying. He even believed she was in her 20s when she was in her 40s. Although he really should have just divorced her, swallowed the loss and focus on his work. He and Troy probably could have recovered that much money. 

Web of Dreams always interested me because Leigh has always been held up as perfection in the other books. No one was more kind, beautiful, or brilliant than Leigh. Even Heaven was just a not quite as good version of her mother.

It was really shocking to hear what a horrible life she had. Tony was disgusting but the real villain of her story was Jillian, her own mother.

Jillian was evil but it was understood that she was sooo beautiful that the men she was with considered her a great prize. In the book,Tony adored Jillian and was still in awe of her even though their marriage was hell. He blames the prenup but he believes he has the most beautiful woman in the world and since he objectifies women, he still wants her.

Leigh supposedly had all of Jillian’s beauty with a kind heart and a loving soul. In the world of the books, some women are more worthy than others and a “worthy” woman can change a bad man to good. So I believe in the world of the books, Luke would have been a different man for Leigh, even though it makes no sense in real life.

The books also usually blame a man’s cheating on this type of worthy woman way more on the other women than the men themselves. The man is just acting on his God given rights as a man and the women are the whores. Non worthy women are often characterized by being insanely jealous of the protagonist and being very sexually aggressive.

After all this, you can understand how disappointed I was when I saw the actress playing Leigh in Web of Dreams.

Edited February 24, 2020 by qtpye

[Avaleigh]

On 1/31/2020 at 5:34 PM, andromeda331 said:

I'm surprised they skipped over Dawn. But I'm interested to see what Ruby looks like. That series always felt perfect for Lifetime. 

Going by Lifetime's track record, they'll probably make Ruby a blonde lol. If they ever get to Dawn, she'll get Heaven's dark hair. 

I read the first two books in the Landry series but couldn't make it through the third. It was SO bad it made the Dawn series seem like high art in comparison. Still, I know I'm going to watch this. I have no idea why I enjoy watching these shitshow productions. Maybe it's because they make me laugh. I also like reading people's comments.

I really kind of wanted to see Dawn next just to see the nightmare on the plantation story come to life. Also for Clara Sue, the less interesting Fanny 2.0. 

Whenever the story is told from the POV of the protagonist's kid, I'm never as into the story. If There Be Thorns, Gates of Paradise, and Midnight Whispers were all pretty lame. 

I'm still curious to know why they didn't do Garden of Shadows. They could have made changes if they were that unhappy with the source material. Maybe make it more about young Corrine's storyline. 

[JAYJAY1979]

Ruby's 3rd book killed off all the interesting characters that in the 4th book..there was no plot..imho.

At least in midnight whisper..Fern was around.

[TattleTeeny]

I am rewatching Flowers in the Attic (considering that I kind of feel like one lately) and am still so surprised that the grandmother generally (minus some obvious instances) comes across as merely crotchety and cranky as opposed to a completely crazy and unforgiving abusive tyrant!

[TattleTeeny]

Also decided to rewatch My Sweet Audrina. Noticed a present-day plastic water bottle on a nightstand.

[Scarlett45]

The movies are replaying! I’m excited. 

[Kiki777]

Ha! I’m watching now.  The kid playing teenaged Jory looks like a young Paul Walker.

Also, during commercial breaks they are showing previews for the Ruby series.  It looks interesting and at least this time they got the leads’ hair color right.

[Daisy]

Ruby looks interesting

(still sadness that they didn't do Cutler right after).

 

because they are doing Landry right after lmao. 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Daisy

[TattleTeeny]

I was trying in vain last night to explain to my BF why it was annoying that the actresses in these movies didn't resemble their book counterparts. Normally, it wouldn't be a big issue for me,* but for VC Andrews shit, it just is! And do not get me started on Corine's Xmas party/Cathy's revenge dress(es). 

The other time this upset me was Jonathan Rhys Meyers and Natalie Dormer in The Tudors. They were both good and all, but the real Anne's brown eyes were sort of important, as was Henry's physique.

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by TattleTeeny

[Snow Apple]

I was at the library today looking at the new books shelf and saw there are new Foxworth books?! 

This need to stop. I can't believe this man gets paid to write fanfiction.

[Daisy]

12 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

I was at the library today looking at the new books shelf and saw there are new Foxworth books?! 

This need to stop. I can't believe this man gets paid to write fanfiction.

 

i just checked the website. holy crap. stop milking the story dry.

(actually, he needs just needs to stop)

Edited September 10, 2020 by Daisy

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I checked amazon and apparently the new trilogy is centered around Corinne/Malcolm. PASS.

Beneath the Attic:

Quote

Two generations before Corinne Foxworth locked her children in an attic, her grandmother, a gorgeous young girl named Corrine Dixon, is swept away by the charms of rich, sophisticated, and handsome Garland Foxworth. After discovering that she’s pregnant, Garland does what appears to be the honorable thing and marries her in a huge ceremony on the luxurious Foxworth Hall grounds. Both families fervently overlook the pregnancy, happy for a suitable resolution.

Now the mistress of a labyrinthine estate, Corrine discovers that nothing is what is seems. Garland is not the man once captivated by her charms, and she’s increasingly troubled by his infatuation with memories of his departed mother.

Can Corrine survive this strange new life? Or is her fate already sealed?

Out of the Attic:

Quote

Married to the handsome, wealthy Garland Foxworth following a wildfire romance, and an unexpected pregnancy, young Corrine Dixon finds her life very different from how she imagined it. Often alone in the mansion of Foxworth Hall, she can practically feel the ancestors’ judgment of her as insufficient—as not a Foxworth. Stern portraits glare at her from the walls, and the servants treat her strangely. Nothing in the vast place is truly hers.

Even her son, Malcolm Foxworth, born in the luxe Swan Room and instantly whisked away to a wet nurse, feels alien to her. With a husband alternately absent and possessively close, Corrine doesn’t yet realize that she’s barely scratched the surface of what lies beneath Foxworth Hall’s dark facade and the family that guards its legacies.

Shadows of Foxworth:

Quote

As a young girl in France, Marlena Hunter’s life was a fairy tale. She had a talented artist for a father, a doting mother, and a brother she couldn’t be closer to. She loved her family; she just didn’t know what her family actually was.

When a car crash kills their parents, Marlena and Yvon lose not only France, but also their identity. Sent to Richmond, Virginia, they arrive at the home of two aunts they’ve never met before, who tell them that their true last name is Dawson, that their father had fled the family years back—and that now the family is calling in the debt.

Trapped in a mansion with as many secrets as rooms, Marlena yearns for escape. But in America, you can either make friends or make profit, and Yvon suddenly seems much more interested in the latter. While he is free to leave the house, Marlena is left to avoid lecherous tutors and the secretary-to-wife track expected of a woman. Caught between mastering the game to escape it and falling prey to its allure, she needs to learn fast—for Malcolm Foxworth has cast his eye in her direction. And no family name can protect her from the twisted roots of the Dollanganger family tree.

 

[TattleTeeny]

I read them when I get bored or when I am too exhausted to read a "real" book. They are fraught with editorial issues and repetitive prose.

[CountryGirl]

So now it’s being retconned that Garland was obsessed with his mother. Um, no, that was Malcolm. And to a lesser extent, Chris Jr. and Bart, but we know how the GW loves to recycle plot lines, down to using identical text. See Cathy’s rape and Dawn’s. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

we know how the GW loves to recycle plot lines, down to using identical text. See Cathy’s rape and Dawn’s. 

This was one of the things that really turned me off from the books written by Neiderman. If you are a VC Andrews fan who has read her earlier books, seeing phrases or entire passages repeated in his work is really offensive. Like am I not supposed to notice that this lazy bastard is just copying and pasting? And that's before we even get into all of the recycled storylines where he just changed the characters' names (and sometimes he repeats names from earlier books which is also super annoying - by the time he wrote the Melody series, he'd already recycled the Olivia name). The reason that the original series had some shock value was that we didn't expect Corinne and Christopher to be half niece/half uncle, let alone for a full blooded brother and sister to end up together. But how many iterations of secretly related couples do we need? There's no shock because it's like every freaking book series (or at least it was when I quit reading the new stuff around the Dawn/Ruby era - I think I read the first Melody book and decided I'd finally had enough).

I started reading VC Andrews books when I was in middle school and even I could tell at that age when Neiderman took over because the plots became stupid/repetitive, the writing became much clunkier, and there were continuity mistakes. I mean, it was already noticeable in Garden of Shadows, but Gates of Paradise and Web of Dreams straight up sucked.

[Scarlett45]

On 9/6/2020 at 7:48 PM, Kiki777 said:

Ha! I’m watching now.  The kid playing teenaged Jory looks like a young Paul Walker.

Also, during commercial breaks they are showing previews for the Ruby series.  It looks interesting and at least this time they got the leads’ hair color right.

Oh I will look up the Ruby series!!! When does it start? I’ll love snarking with you all. 

[Daisy]

On 9/10/2020 at 6:17 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

This was one of the things that really turned me off from the books written by Neiderman. If you are a VC Andrews fan who has read her earlier books, seeing phrases or entire passages repeated in his work is really offensive. Like am I not supposed to notice that this lazy bastard is just copying and pasting? And that's before we even get into all of the recycled storylines where he just changed the characters' names (and sometimes he repeats names from earlier books which is also super annoying - by the time he wrote the Melody series, he'd already recycled the Olivia name). The reason that the original series had some shock value was that we didn't expect Corinne and Christopher to be half niece/half uncle, let alone for a full blooded brother and sister to end up together. But how many iterations of secretly related couples do we need? There's no shock because it's like every freaking book series (or at least it was when I quit reading the new stuff around the Dawn/Ruby era - I think I read the first Melody book and decided I'd finally had enough).

I started reading VC Andrews books when I was in middle school and even I could tell at that age when Neiderman took over because the plots became stupid/repetitive, the writing became much clunkier, and there were continuity mistakes. I mean, it was already noticeable in Garden of Shadows, but Gates of Paradise and Web of Dreams straight up sucked.

Rain/Melody was my tipping point. it was legit just reading Cutler x2. I THINK i picked up Willow down the road and i was like whatever. I don't pretend to know how VC Andrews would have written the others books. but i mean. even off the top of my head - 

Garden of Shadows  - eehhhhhh. I mean the best part about that book was learning that Christopher and Corrine were full blooded siblings, and that's why everyone was so horrified. but how we got to that part was so twisted and convoluted. Like they didn't have to have Malcolm rape Alicia. they could have simply have been lovers, as it was clear that he had no time Olivia. Like they went out of their way to make Olivia this sympathetic creature, like no. the woman locked up and terrorized 4 little children for 3 years. Woman gets none. 

Gates of Paradise didn't need to happen. We didn't need to know about Annie - the only thing they found out was that Annie and Luke could actually screw each other and not feel dirty about it (which is STILL dirty because they were raised siblings, and the fact that Annie wanted to do it regardless of the truth just made her all several kinds of wrong). 

Web of Dreams missed a golden opportunity to change things up on their head. my best friend and I basically thought that we were going to get some sort of Lolita situation with Leigh (not so much to justify Tony's actions or anything. still wrong for touching as 12 year old). but the way Jillian was basically. "yeah. no thank you." in regards to Leigh period just always made me think there was something there (and to be fair. knowing that Jillian was all about grooming Leigh to be Tony's plaything was sick and twisted too and like the ONLY interesting part about the book is something). 

Cutlers - well Dawn was stupid. (and again. this lusting over people who you were raised to believe was your sibling, like what? come on). like. "Oh Jimmy! guess what we're not sibs anymore, let's do it!"  "Sure thing Dawn!!".  and the same of literally making Philip the carbon copy of Tony.  And by this point. it's like. why are you killing off Jimmy and Dawn? We don't need to know about Lililian's back story (honestly. Lilian wasn't even evil. but they kept trying to make her out to be). Honestly - the woman didn't want to put up with Dawn's stupidity, I don't blame her. (the real story i wanted to know about was Laura Sue, but basically it would have been. "Oh, I am so innocent and sweet, and big mean William Cutler raped me and i turned insane for.. whatever reason." (not diminishing the trauma of rape or anything like that  -it's just that's the GW's go to). 

Ruby at least tried to be different. but it really was just a Cajun Heaven/Dollanganger mashup. Oh Look. I'm pregnant, locked in the attic. Oh Look. my Daddy sells my children. whatever. (i didn't care about Pearl, and I didn't care about Gabriel/Gabrielle). 

Melody was basically Cutlers. (AGAIN)

and Rain was sheer stupidity, so like. whatever. 

the Andrews family should be ashamed for milking this bone dry. 

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Daisy said:

Garden of Shadows  - eehhhhhh. I mean the best part about that book was learning that Christopher and Corrine were full blooded siblings, and that's why everyone was so horrified. but how we got to that part was so twisted and convoluted. Like they didn't have to have Malcolm rape Alicia. they could have simply have been lovers, as it was clear that he had no time Olivia.

Wait- Corrine & Christopher werent full siblings- They were half siblings? They had the same mom (Alicia) and Malcom raped Alicia (which resulted in Corrine’s conception) but Christopher was Garland’s son (and Malcom’s younger brother). Just making sure I am remembering correctly.