S01.E09: The Reckoning

[John Potts]

I wish Claire didn't have to keep learning that "She isn't in Kansas any more!" You've SEEN a boy get his ear nailed to the pillory and Jamie get beaten up (by his kinsmen, no less), you KNOW this is a more brutal society than you're used to, so she shouldn't be surprised that she is facing punishment for endangering the entire clan. And her "Well I've said I'm sorry!" just made her sound like a whiny teen.

On ‎05‎/‎04‎/‎2015 at 5:29 PM, Proclone said:

 I really think he did think that it was justice for what she had done and that he needed to do it both to make sure she understood the error of her ways and to also for him to save face in front of the other highlanders.  Does that make it right?  Of course not, but given the time period I can see how Jamie would feel it was his duty to do it.

I would tend to agree with this... if it wasn't for the fact that he said, "I'm going to enjoy this!" (I actually rewound to confirm he really DID say that). I would have been fine (in the context of the society they're in, that is) with him acting out of a sense that it was his duty to punish Claire.

Loved Colum facing down Dougal, despite being a head shorter than him. I was actually surprised that he WASN'T involved in the Jacobite fundraising (obviously he can't officially "know" it's happening, but I would have thought he'd be quietly in favour). I guess he has to think about the bigger picture and the likely cost of a rebellion [Historical Spoiler: It's not fated to go well]. 

On ‎06‎/‎04‎/‎2015 at 6:08 AM, viajero said:

While I think that I generally prefer that the story be told from Claire's POV, I did find some value in having this episode told from Jaime's.

I wasn't a fan: it reveals that (like Claire) he's fated to survive for at least the medium term. OK, realistically he isn't likely to die, but I don't want to be spoiled about the fates of the characters.

Loghaire seemed to have "forgotten" to wear a shirt, just in case we were lacking our quota of boobs for this episode. Glad Jamie turned her down, even if he did leave his hand on her tits rather longer than he should have. I was glad they resisted the temptation to have Claire walk in on them for some "hilarious" misunderstandings.
 

Quote

 

Matt Debenham (recap) Oh, and why didn't Jamie kill Black Jack when he had the chance?

 

Can't do that until the Finale!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 8/31/2017 at 3:06 PM, guiser said:

The latest research seems to show that it was not acceptable for Scottish gentry to behave in that way. Indeed, if anything, Scottish marriage seems to have been more equal than the English equivalent. Women were not expected to be quiet and submissive and just go along meekly with whatever their husband wanted.  And, yes, the Scottish religious set-up (more social control) definitely affected behaviour. However, much of the research on the family and marriage in Scotland is pretty recent , so it wouldn't have been available at the time the Outlander books were being written. 

There is an interesting post at this link  http://outlandercastblog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/spanking-vs-beating-honest-historical.html that talks about Outlander in light of this recent research. 

Thank you for posting this link.  I've been saying the same thing since S1, when I stumbled across the show on a free Starz weekend (never heard of it before.)  I got into some lengthy arguments on another forum about how the beating was not historically accurate.  I can't recall the links I found now, but I found several real life examples of court cases from that time period (late 18th century) in Scotland where husbands were arrested and convicted for beating their wives - some even served jail time.   

[guiser]

On 11/09/2017 at 5:08 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Thank you for posting this link.  I've been saying the same thing since S1, when I stumbled across the show on a free Starz weekend (never heard of it before.)  I got into some lengthy arguments on another forum about how the beating was not historically accurate.  I can't recall the links I found now, but I found several real life examples of court cases from that time period (late 18th century) in Scotland where husbands were arrested and convicted for beating their wives - some even served jail time.   

Nice to see that someone else is concerned to establish the historical truth!  I love historical novels and enjoy watching costume dramas but I have long since learned that you can't really learn accurate history from them.  I haven't come across the the criminal cases you mention but I have found some evidence online for kirk sessions punishing wife-beaters with fines or public penance. However, those sources are a bit too early and involve people further down the social scale.

That said, I can now give more information from the book mentioned in the blog (Love, Intimacy and Power - Marriage and the Patriarchy in Scotland 1650-1850 by Katie Barclay) . According to the book, you can also find clear evidence of attitudes to marital violence towards elite women by looking at cases where said women sued for a legal separation on the grounds of cruelty. These cases show an increasing judicial intolerance towards marital violence from the early 18th century onwards. By the early 19th century even emotional violence could be used to justify a judicial separation. 

Also, many of the people for whom Jamie was "performing" the violence would seem to to be middle-class/gentry by Highland standards (British middle-class = above average income) so, in reality, would have shared the aforementioned attitudes. I am basing this on the possession of horses, swords, good clothing, no obvious occupation and plenty of free time. I think I read somewhere that Rupert is a tacksman and I'm kind of assuming that Murtaugh is as well.

I must admit that I did look at other forums after I started watching Outlander but I think this is the best. Folks are analytical and critical without being too much of a downer.  Also, it is easy to avoid spoilers. Yes, I'm late to the party but I don't mind! :D

Edited September 13, 2017 by guiser

[RulerofallIsurvey]

19 hours ago, guiser said:

Nice to see that someone else is concerned to establish the historical truth! 

Ditto! :)

19 hours ago, guiser said:

  I love historical novels and enjoy watching costume dramas but I have long since learned that you can't really learn accurate history from them.

Oh, yeah.  I used to read a lot more historical novels than I do now, but even when I was much younger, I knew better than to think they were all 'historically accurate'!  They might get a date correct about a war or uprising, but other than that - not really.  So I was floored when I saw arguments in favor of Jamie beating Claire on the basis of 'historical accuracy' alone.  

19 hours ago, guiser said:

I haven't come across the the criminal cases you mention but I have found some evidence online for kirk sessions punishing wife-beaters with fines or public penance. 

I just did a quick search to see if I could find any of the sources I remembered.  One is here: https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/handle/10023/2684  Law and Order in Stirlingshire, 1637-1747 by Stephen J. Davies.  It is a doctoral thesis from the University of St. Andrews.  I realize Stirlingshire is considered the 'lowlands' not the highlands, but seems to me, the court structure would have been pretty much the same throughout Scotland, and the author addresses this.  And you are right - these are Kirk Sessions.  But apparently, the Kirk held control over most of the 'social issues', not the local courts.  Two particular points of interest: p. 90, 'Scandalous carriage' is discussed.  This seems to me to be what Laoghaire would have been charged with.  So, historically, Collum would not have been the one administering the punishment for that either.  And p. 94, begins discussion of 'disorderly conduct' which covered wife-beating.  It is noted at the top of p. 95 that "wife-beating, for it's part was considered a serious offence."

20 hours ago, guiser said:

I must admit that I did look at other forums after I started watching Outlander but I think this is the best. Folks are analytical and critical without being too much of a downer.  Also, it is easy to avoid spoilers. Yes, I'm late to the party but I don't mind! :D

Yes, this forum is SO much better than the first one I'd stumbled across.  I didn't start watching the show until the first season hiatus and then caught up.  Welcome to the party!

[guiser]

22 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I just did a quick search to see if I could find any of the sources I remembered.  One is here: https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/handle/10023/2684  Law and Order in Stirlingshire, 1637-1747 by Stephen J. Davies.  It is a doctoral thesis from the University of St. Andrews.  I realize Stirlingshire is considered the 'lowlands' not the highlands, but seems to me, the court structure would have been pretty much the same throughout Scotland, and the author addresses this.  And you are right - these are Kirk Sessions.  But apparently, the Kirk held control over most of the 'social issues', not the local courts.  Two particular points of interest: p. 90, 'Scandalous carriage' is discussed.  This seems to me to be what Laoghaire would have been charged with.  So, historically, Collum would not have been the one administering the punishment for that either.  And p. 94, begins discussion of 'disorderly conduct' which covered wife-beating.  It is noted at the top of p. 95 that "wife-beating, for it's part was considered a serious offence."

Yes, this forum is SO much better than the first one I'd stumbled across.  I didn't start watching the show until the first season hiatus and then caught up.  Welcome to the party!

Thanks! :D

That thesis looks interesting - I'll have to give it a read.  I've got to say that having searchable pdfs of theses available on the internet is a great thing for amateur researchers.  Particularly since some rather expensive books are almost word for word people's thesis! :D  I also find google books handy! Yes, the Church of Scotland was effectively running courts for moral offenses. I really should have realised that but for some reason I find it  difficult to get my head around that kind of set-up!

I think you are quite right about Laoghaire. However, I wonder how much power kirk sessions had in areas where most people were Episcopalians or Catholics and thus not attendees of the official church? I'm not sure how the Outlander books portray the religious situation in Scotland (and the program is just confusing!) but apparently real Mackenzie tacksmen were pretty much Episcopalians though the chiefly family had a history of (inconsistent) Catholicism. Episcopalians were particularly common in the Highlands and the North East of Scotland  (after the "Glorious Revolution" of 1689 installed "King Billy" who  Presbyterianised the official Church of Scotland). Episcopalianism and Catholicism were strongly associated with Jacobitism (and actually most Jacobites were episcopalians).  Of course, there were Presbyterian pro-government clans too. 

I am pretty sure that kirk sessions of some sort existed in most parts of  Scotland by this period so Laoghaire could have been reported to one. Also, I suspect that the official church considered everyone to be a member whether they liked it or not! On the other hand, the church would have had to rely on the secular authorities to arrest accused parties and enforce sentences and what if the local authorities were not Presbyterians? I've had a look through the thesis and it does seem that in Stirlingshire, at least, kirk sessions had given up trying to discipline non-church members by the 1720s. So maybe Laoghaire would have had to be a Presbyterian to be hauled up before the church courts. 

One thing is for sure, no way would a proud clan chief have concerned himself with a young girl who was "misbehaving" in this way! So if the kirk session hadn't acted I'm pretty sure Laoghaire would have gone unpunished. 

[Camera One]

I didn't mind seeing an episode from Jamie's POV.  Even though I know it was accepted at the time for a husband to "punish" his wife with physical pain, I did find it quite uncomfortable, even with Jaime's apology at the end.  The whole bit that she wouldn't learn her lesson without a beating was so condescending.  At the very least, I don't think Claire should have slept with him at the end of the episode.  She could have said that where she came from, a man using his hand against a woman was a great sin and she would need to some time to get over it.  I know the episode wasn't from her POV but I would imagine she would be very mixed up in her mind about it.  The way it was portrayed in the episode with the music made it seem like the intention was a titillating "50 Shades of Tartan".  

I did think the argument between Jaime and Claire earlier in the episode was very raw and well acted.  

Edited February 27, 2018 by Camera One

[Anela]

On 7/10/2017 at 10:01 PM, deaja said:

I started watching a couple weeks ago and have gotten as far as this episode. I'm been refraining from commenting, while reading some, because I realize discussion on these episodes ended already. But I have to say, this episode really bothered me. 

I see why they had Jamie narrate, but at the same time, it felt like Claire went through so much leading up to this episode and then during the episode that it felt like this just further took away her agency. 

Speaking of that, I was shocked/horrified, and angered by the beating she got. Could I see his perspective? Maybe a little. But still.... cold. And she forgave him much to easily. Plus playing it for laughs was just too much.

Totally agree. I'm watching this right now, and it especially annoyed me that they played it for laughs. 

[gingerella]

Okay, so the scene I want to start out with is the scene that gutted me, and Jaime as well, and that is when they've saved Claire and they're smaller party is en route to meet up with Dougal and the rest of them. Jaime gives the horses to the Murtagh to be watered and he and Claire walk off together. When he expresses frustration that Claire hasn't apologized she becomes angry, then he becomes angrier, and the following conversation ensues:

Jaime: "I went to ye at Fort William armed with an empty pistol and my bare hands. When you screamed...yer tearing my guts out, Claire."

And after they make up he says, "She asked forgiveness and I gave it. But the truth is, I'd forgiven everything she'd done, and everything she could do, long before that day...For me, that was no choice, that was falling in love."

First, what an amazing scene. You could feel all of the previous events erupt out of Jaime, where thus far he's been fairly laid back, even after the Redcoat attack, they get right back on the horses to find Horrocks. What he says about forgiving her, it just reinforces that this isn't the usual couple, this is something otherworldy, something unexplainable. I know there will be more still to be revealed, and I am so looking forward to seeing what unfolds for these two.

But this exchange also struck me because it is one of a few 'mirror' scenes we've seen thus far. We've seen the dual shaving scene with BJRs razor, and we've seen the two different weddings (Frank's quickie Registry wedding, and Jaime' pull out all the stops romantic wedding of a girl's dreams), and now we see this fight scene. We saw a near identical scene between Frank and Claire in E01, right after Frank sees the mysterious man starting up at Claire from the street below, and he then accuses Claire of having had an affair with a Highlander during the war and that must be who that was down in the street. They say almost the same lines to one another as Jaime and Claire do in this scene in E09, but the emotional difference is jarring! In the Frank/Claire fight, they argue in this sad, passive manner that gives one the impression that they're trying to resurrect a 'great love' that perhaps they both realize never was in the first place but neither can admit. It's the same resignation feeling that we got when they first got to their room and were trying to awkwardly reconnect. We are led to believe initially that it's their separation during the war that caused the chasm between them, but it's not that at all, it's just this sad realization that this was never meant to be, IMO, there is no ‘there’ there. Now in the fight in E09, between Jaime and Claire, there is so much passion and intensity! This is like the 3rd time Jaime has personally saved Claire from violent rape (first was when she was trying to escape and those drunk men tried to attack her outside Castle Leoch, next when the Redcoats attacked them, then when he just rescued her from BJR at the last moment) not to mention he knows BJR tried to attack her when Murtagh first rescued her, and she told him that the drunk men in the castle hallways tried to attack her, then Dougal but she plays Dougal down a bit and I don't think she told Jamie he tried to get her to 'pay him'. Anyway, Jaime is beside himself, he's been fighting Claire’s fires seemingly on a regular basis and now she is his wife and he's deeply in love with her and experiencing emotions he's never felt before, but she keeps putting herself in harms way so his desperation to keep her safe, and his exasperation at her not heeding local norms comes pouring out of him as anger and grief and fear all balled up into one angry screed. When she sees how upset he is, how this is tearing him up inside to see her in danger and how terrified he was, she realizes she's fucked up and she begs forgiveness. It is honest and raw and feels real. BUT, when she and Frank are having the same conversation in their hotel room, it felt sad, and forced and just depressing. Two people who shouldn't be together forgiving each other for what exactly? The forgiveness between Claire and Jaime though, that has power and depth and they have to forgive one another because they know they're bound together forever, because they belong to each other in a way that Frank and Claire never belonged to each other. I love how we keep seeing dual scenes where something similar happened previously and either the actions or the dialogue are nearly identical, but the meaning is so completely different. I'm not sure what it all means or if it’s just a device when telling a time travel story, but it's a great comparison mechanism.

I didn't mind the spanking scene because it was the reality of the time period, and I think it was necessary to provide context for the scene back at Leoch when Jaime says this is how it's always been in his family...BUT, maybe he and Claire need to do things differently, and then he pledges fealty to his wife, along with promising to never raise a hand to her as long as he lives. That is another example where Jaime shows he is open to new ways of thinking and personal growth in a way that is uncommon of men at that time. He talks in the beginning about how his whole life has seemed to be a series of step - left, right, forward, or knowing when to stand still - like he has a destiny he's been either preparing for or fulfilling without being truly certain what it all means. This notion of never raising a hand to his wife, it's progressive, it's modern thinking for the time period, and it's something he comes to himself, not because anyone told him it should be this way. Once again he is sort of an Outlander in his own country, setting him apart from other men.

I loathe Leery, I knew she was no good. I don't like how Jaime doesn't come straight out with it and tell her "I'm just not into you, a book will be written about this hundreds of years from now but for now, that's all I can say..." Also, she's pretty whacked out to think because she is into him, he has to be into her. I'm certain the 'ill wish' is her doing, and I'm worried for them both because she is petty and immature and is a problem that needs to be dealt with swiftly.

ETA: I loved having the voice over from Jaime's POV this episode! I was tiring of Claire's, and I hope they do more with Jaime.

Edited March 17, 2021 by gingerella

[Beeyago]

23 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Okay, so the scene I want to start out with is the scene that gutted me, and Jaime as well, and that is when they've saved Claire and they're smaller party is en route to meet up with Dougal and the rest of them. Jaime gives the horses to the Murtagh to be watered and he and Claire walk off together. When he expresses frustration that Claire hasn't apologized she becomes angry, then he becomes angrier, and the following conversation ensues:

Jaime: "I went to ye at Fort William armed with an empty pistol and my bare hands. When you screamed...yer tearing my guts out, Claire."

And after they make up he says, "She asked forgiveness and I gave it. But the truth is, I'd forgiven everything she'd done, and everything she could do, long before that day...For me, that was no choice, that was falling in love."

First, what an amazing scene. You could feel all of the previous events erupt out of Jaime, where thus far he's been fair laid back, even after the Redcoat attack, they get right back on the horses to find Horrocks. What he says about forgiving her, it just reinforces that this isn't the usual couple, this is something otherworldy, something unexplainable. I know there will be more still to be revealed, and I am so looking forward to seeing what unfolds for these two.

But this exchange also struck me because it is one of a few 'mirror' scenes we've seen thus far. We've seen the dual shaving scene with BJRs razor, and we've seen the two different weddings (Frank's quickie Registry wedding, and Jaime' pull out all the stops romantic wedding of a girl's dreams), and now we see this fight scene. We saw a near identical scene between Frank and Claire in E01, right after Frank sees the mysterious man starting up at Claire from the street below, and he then accuses Claire of having had an affair with a Highlander during the war and that must be who that was down in the street. They say almost the same lines to one another as Jaime and Claire do in this scene in E09, but the emotional difference is jarring! In the Frank/Claire fight, they argue in this sad, passive manner that gives one the impression that they're trying to resurrect a 'great love' that perhaps they both realize never was in the first place but neither can admit. It's the same resignation feeling that we got when they first got to their room and were trying to awkwardly reconnect. We are led to believe initially that it's their separation during the war that caused the chasm between them, but it's not that at all, it's just this sad realization that this was never meant to be, IMO. Now in the fight in E09, between Jaime and Claire, there is so much passion and intensity! This is, what, like the 3rd time Jaime has personally saved Claire from violent rape (first was when she was trying to escape and those drunk men tried to attack her outside Castle Leoch, next when the Redcoats attacked them, then when he just rescued her from BJR at the last moment) not to mention he knows BJR tried to attack her when Murtagh rescued her, and she told him that the drunk men in the castle hallways tried to attack her, then Dougal but she plays Dougal down a bit and I don't think she told Jamie he tried to get her to 'pay him'. Anyway, Jaime is beside himself, he's been fighting Claire fires seemingly on a regular basis and now she is his wife and he's deeply in love with her and experiencing emotions he's never felt before, but she keeps putting herself in harms way so his desperation to keep her safe comes pouring out of him as anger and grief and fear all balled up into one angry screed. When she sees how upset he is, how this is tearing him up inside to see her in danger, she realizes she's fucked up and she begs forgiveness. It is honest and raw and feels real. BUT, when she and Frank are having the same conversation in their hotel room, it felt sad, and forced and just depressing. Two people who shouldn't be together forgiving each other for what exactly? The forgiveness between Claire and Jaime though, that has power and depth and they have to forgive one another because they know they're bound together for a long time/forever, because they belong to each other in a way that Frank and Claire never belonged to each other. I love how we keep seeing dual scenes where something similar happened previously and either the actions or the dialogue are nearly identical. I'm not sure what it means other than it's a great comparison mechanism.

I didn't mind the spanking scene because it was the reality of the time period, and I think it was necessary to provide context for the scene back at Leoch when Jaime says this is how it's always been in his family...BUT, maybe he and Claire need to do things differently, and then he pledges fealty to his wife, along with promising to never raise a hand to her as long as he lives. That is another example where Jaime shows he is open to new ways of thinking and personal growth in a way that is uncommon of men at that time. He talks in the beginning about how his whole life has seemed to be a series of step - left, right, forward, or knowing when to stand still - like he has a destiny he's been either preparing for or fulfilling without being truly certain what it all means. This notion of never raising a hand to his wife, it's progressive, it's modern thinking for the time period, and it's something he comes to himself, not because anyone told him it should be this way. Once again he is sort of an Outlander in his own country, setting him apart from other men.

I loathe Leery, I knew she was no good. I don't like how Jaime doesn't come straight out with it and tell her "I'm just not into you, a book will be written about this hundreds of years from now but for now, that's all I can say..." Also, she's pretty whacked out to think because she is into him, he has to be into her. I'm certain the 'ill wish' is her doing, and I'm worried for them both because she is petty and immature and is a problem that needs to be dealt with swiftly.

ETA: I loved having the voice over from Jaime's POV this episode! I was tiring of Claire's, and I hope they do more with Jaime.

Yes!! Completely agree with everything!! 🙌

[Anothermi]

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

Okay, so the scene I want to start out with is the scene that gutted me, and Jaime as well, and that is when they've saved Claire and they're smaller party is en route to meet up with Dougal and the rest of them. Jaime gives the horses to the Murtagh to be watered and he and Claire walk off together. When he expresses frustration that Claire hasn't apologized she becomes angry, then he becomes angrier, and the following conversation ensues:

Jaime: "I went to ye at Fort William armed with an empty pistol and my bare hands. When you screamed...yer tearing my guts out, Claire."

And after they make up he says, "She asked forgiveness and I gave it. But the truth is, I'd forgiven everything she'd done, and everything she could do, long before that day...For me, that was no choice, that was falling in love."

That quote from Jamie was truly the turning point of that scene. And it is that path that men need to learn is the way to help women understand where the anger that appears to be directed at them is coming from. Women understand anger that comes with fear of loss. Most men don't want to admit to feeling that emotion. He does seem to be a bit over perfect to me, but I must mention how good it was to see to see a man take that path. 

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

But this exchange also struck me because it is one of a few 'mirror' scenes we've seen thus far. We've seen the dual shaving scene with BJRs razor, and we've seen the two different weddings (Frank's quickie Registry wedding, and Jaime' pull out all the stops romantic wedding of a girl's dreams), and now we see this fight scene. We saw a near identical scene between Frank and Claire in E01, right after Frank sees the mysterious man starting up at Claire from the street below, and he then accuses Claire of having had an affair with a Highlander during the war and that must be who that was down in the street.

Well spotted, Ging. I did not make that connection. But then, Frank was motivated by his feelings of jealousy—and we suspect, guilt. I think he really wasn't listening to her. He was positioning his feelings in such a way that he could get rid of his guilt and believe they'd both cheated—even though she said she hadn't, he forgave her as if she had. I'll have to keep my eyes open for more of these parallels. 

 

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

I didn't mind the spanking scene because it was the reality of the time period, and I think it was necessary to provide context for the scene back at Leoch when Jaime says this is how it's always been in his family...BUT, maybe he and Claire need to do things differently, and then he pledges fealty to his wife, along with promising to never raise a hand to her as long as he lives.

This was another scene where Jamie seems to learn—from Claire's reaction—that perhaps there is another way than the one he (and everyone around him) knows and accepts. He's willing to accept that there must be a good reason for her reacting this way and thinks about it.  We don't actually get to see Claire trying to understand him the way he tries to understand her. This might end up being a bumpy ride for them!

 

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

Once again he is sort of an Outlander in his own country, setting him apart from other men.

Nail on the head with that statement.

 

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

I loathe Leery, I knew she was no good.

I remember thinking she might be trouble when Claire was trying to set Jamie up with her (back a few episodes). But at that time Leery knew that Jamie wasn't interested in her but "someone else". She never did say who that was, but she WAS aware that he was just not into her. So, she's made quite the leap from that to "He is mine and I am his... forever."  That doesn't compute for me. 

 

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

I loved having the voice over from Jaime's POV this episode!

I whole heartedly agree with this. Gave us a little insight into how he's processing these unusual experiences in his life. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Anothermi

[SassAndSnacks]

11 hours ago, gingerella said:

Jaime: "I went to ye at Fort William armed with an empty pistol and my bare hands. When you screamed...yer tearing my guts out, Claire."

And after they make up he says, "She asked forgiveness and I gave it. But the truth is, I'd forgiven everything she'd done, and everything she could do, long before that day...For me, that was no choice, that was falling in love."

This is one of my favorite scenes in the entire series.  It is brilliantly written and brilliantly acted.  

11 hours ago, gingerella said:

They say almost the same lines to one another as Jaime and Claire do in this scene in E09, but the emotional difference is jarring! In the Frank/Claire fight, they argue in this sad, passive manner that gives one the impression that they're trying to resurrect a 'great love' that perhaps they both realize never was in the first place but neither can admit. It's the same resignation feeling that we got when they first got to their room and were trying to awkwardly reconnect. We are led to believe initially that it's their separation during the war that caused the chasm between them, but it's not that at all, it's just this sad realization that this was never meant to be, IMO, there is no ‘there’ there. Now in the fight in E09, between Jaime and Claire, there is so much passion and intensity!

I'm completely ashamed to admit that I never put the parallels between the scenes and fights together.  I'm incredibly appreciative that you shared this view.  It is striking how awkward the one fight feels and how natural and passionate the other is.  I'm not a huge confrontation person, but I appreciate the point of an argument to resolve a conflict.  When Claire and Frank fought, what was the point?  Was it really even a fight, or was it just unsubstantiated accusations?  When Claire and Jamie fought, genuine feelings were actually ruffled and the point was that Jamie was terrified and frustrated, and Claire just didn't understand why.  They fought, it was intense, they came to a greater understanding.  Can't say the same for Claire and Frank.  

(BOLDED words... You are awesome.  I use this term at work all the time and no one ever understands what the F I'm talking about.)

11 hours ago, gingerella said:

I didn't mind the spanking scene because it was the reality of the time period, and I think it was necessary to provide context for the scene back at Leoch when Jaime says this is how it's always been in his family...BUT, maybe he and Claire need to do things differently, and then he pledges fealty to his wife, along with promising to never raise a hand to her as long as he lives.

 

7 hours ago, Anothermi said:

This was another scene where Jamie seems to learn—from Claire's reaction—that perhaps there is another way than the one he (and everyone around him) knows and accepts. He's willing to accept that there must be a good reason for her reacting this way and thinks about it.

Gah, thank you both for this perspective!  People get so hung up on this scene.  While I don't condone hitting your wife ever, I think it was necessary to show that it is actually Jamie that learns a lesson and wants his marriage to be different.   

11 hours ago, gingerella said:

I loved having the voice over from Jaime's POV this episode!

Me too!  But then that voice could read the tax code to me and I would still be a rapt audience.  

[Cdh20]

Definitely some of my fave scenes as well in this episode ( great dialogue straight from the book): the fight by the river, which was used for Cait’s chemistry test with Sam! As well as the whole makeup scene, great example of Jamie & Claire , foreplay, sex, afterglow which was the first sex scene they actually filmed together!  Thought I’d throw in some trivia! Loved having Jamie’s POV! 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Cdh20
Spelling

[Beeyago]

4 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Gah, thank you both for this perspective!  People get so hung up on this scene.  While I don't condone hitting your wife ever, I think it was necessary to show that it is actually Jamie that learns a lesson and wants his marriage to be different.

Yes, so ridiculous.  Good grief, it was the 1700's in the highlands of Scotland, it happened, get over it.  And they are actors!  Caitriona was not whipped by Sam on set🙄🤦‍♀️

 

4 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Me too!  But then that voice could read the tax code to me and I would still be a rapt audience.  

Truer words have never been spoken😍

[gingerella]

One thing about this episode thats been on my mind is this - in the opening scene Jaime is talking about his life choices and saying he hadn't thought he was being deliberate but rather he was just taking steps forward to keep moving. But then one day he realized that all those steps are what led him to where he is right now, and he realizes he is a man now. Heady stuff, which is jarring because we see a blond woman walking towards him out of focus slightly, by the river, but we can tell it looks like Leery, giving me an ominous feeling of dread and thinking, "Nooooo, she isn't the one for Jaime!" Then we see that scene play out in the episode and Leery tries to get Jaime to be with her and cheat on Claire and he rebuffs her saying "I won't break my vows to Claire", or something like that. I am trying to resolve the opening scene voice over with seeing the actual scene unfold in the episode. I'm wondering if his thinking by the river, and his refusal of what would have been an easy quickie with someone else, was a deeper reckoning of how much he already loved Claire? I know they'd already had their emotionally intense scene when they stopped to water the horses on the way home, and he'd said he'd forgiven her for anything she would ever do already because that was no choice for him because he was falling in love with her. Was his rebuff of Leery another level of the same realization? Or maybe that's where he realized that he'd need to find a way to resolve the anger he knew Claire was still feeling after the spanking?

I'm not asking for any info that is revealed after this episode, just wondering if you guys thought the above too when you first watched this or if you took it differently? I guess the fact that the show opens with Leery leering at him, and she throws herself at him later on in the actual scene, I'm trying to resolve his voice over and what it means with the actual scene...without spoilering myself! @Beeyago, @SassAndSnacks, @Cdh20, what sayeth you all?

[Cdh20]

11 minutes ago, gingerella said:

One thing about this episode thats been on my mind is this - in the opening scene Jaime is talking about his life choices and saying he hadn't thought he was being deliberate but rather he was just taking steps forward to keep moving. But then one day he realized that all those steps are what led him to where he is right now, and he realizes he is a man now. Heady stuff, which is jarring because we see a blond woman walking towards him out of focus slightly, by the river, but we can tell it looks like Leery, giving me an ominous feeling of dread and thinking, "Nooooo, she isn't the one for Jaime!" Then we see that scene play out in the episode and Leery tries to get Jaime to be with her and cheat on Claire and he rebuffs her saying "I won't break my vows to Claire", or something like that. I am trying to resolve the opening scene voice over with seeing the actual scene unfold in the episode. I'm wondering if his thinking by the river, and his refusal of what would have been an easy quickie with someone else, was a deeper reckoning of how much he already loved Claire? I know they'd already had their emotionally intense scene when they stopped to water the horses on the way home, and he'd said he'd forgiven her for anything she would ever do already because that was no choice for him because he was falling in love with her. Was his rebuff of Leery another level of the same realization? Or maybe that's where he realized that he'd need to find a way to resolve the anger he knew Claire was still feeling after the spanking?

I'm not asking for any info that is revealed after this episode, just wondering if you guys thought the above too when you first watched this or if you took it differently? I guess the fact that the show opens with Leery leering at him, and she throws herself at him later on in the actual scene, I'm trying to resolve his voice over and what it means with the actual scene...without spoilering myself! @Beeyago, @SassAndSnacks, @Cdh20, what sayeth you all?

I did notice that those scenes are from the same place. I believe Jamie is figuring out how to proceed with Claire because she’s the “one”. I know everyone is annoyed that Jamie doesn’t tell Laoghaire that he’s in love with Claire but he hasn’t told Claire he’s in love with her yet ( although I think she knows). 

[Camera One]

I personally didn't connect his monologue with the scene with Leery.  If he didn't have a quickie with her before he got married (which was unexplained, why he decided to wait until marriage... I'm imagining it would have been rare in that society), there was even less reason to do so now.  

I liked how Jaime helped resolve the conflict between Colum and Dougal.  I had forgotten about that.  It's a mark of a good show that when you rewatch, you find more meaning in subsequent episodes.  

Having said that, I was no less disgusted by the whole spanking scene.  Maybe even moreso.  Jaime clearly enjoyed the spanking, and it was like the story was fulfilling the fantasy of the stereotypical bored housewife.  They added to it later with Claire playfully calling Jaime "master".  

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

I did notice that those scenes are from the same place. I believe Jamie is figuring out how to proceed with Claire because she’s the “one”. I know everyone is annoyed that Jamie doesn’t tell Laoghaire that he’s in love with Claire but he hasn’t told Claire he’s in love with her yet ( although I think she knows). 

Really? I thought he had already by the end of their wedding night, or somewhere along the way after that, no? I cannot recall an exact scene but I thought they both told the other they love one another. Did that happen in the make up scene or was he saying he wanted her? Alot of the time I can't make out the exact words without blasting them several times because the dialogue is quieter. I think in the make up scene he's saying, "I want you, tell me you want me" and she says, "I do" but at first I thought he was telling her he loved her.

I also thought that perhaps he sees Leery as what he assumed his life would end up as - with a lass like her, not much of a connection but she likes him well enough and he probably never thought he'd ever fall in love, let alone with a woman like Claire. So that's what I thought the initial opening voice over meant - he sees this girl who's made a pass at him before and he knows he can have her, but he now realizes that his life is going to be so much more than he ever dreamed and he has to find a way to repair things with Claire ASAP.

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I personally didn't connect his monologue with the scene with Leery.  If he didn't have a quickie with her before he got married (which was unexplained, why he decided to wait until marriage... I'm imagining it would have been rare in that society), there was even less reason to do so now.  

I liked how Jaime helped resolve the conflict between Colum and Dougal.  I had forgotten about that.  It's a mark of a good show that when you rewatch, you find more meaning in subsequent episodes.  

Having said that, I was no less disgusted by the whole spanking scene.  Maybe even moreso.  Jaime clearly enjoyed the spanking, and it was like the story was fulfilling the fantasy of the stereotypical bored housewife.  They added to it later with Claire playfully calling Jaime "master".  

I don't think he had any pre-marriage sex because he admits he's a virgin, and it seems all his mates know this to be true a well.

I meant to bring up that scene between Jaime and Colum! It was indeed a great and very telling scene. In it, Jaime shows his prowess in moderating situations that could get very out of hand quickly. I liked how he gave Colum his run down about how "that prince is being pampered in France, he's not coming back, and there is no army, you know that, I know that, let Dougal think he can make a difference until such time that it's clear this guy isn't coming back here." It showed his diplomacy skills in diffusing volatile situations, and I think it probably made Colum more annoyed because he can see that Jaime would make for a much better Laird than Dougal ever would. It also made me look at Jaime as a man, not as a hottie, which he claims for himself at the beginning of the episode too. He doesn't say much, but it's clear his mind retains details and information and he's very good at reading a situation and knowing how to play it, which makes me hope he is eventually pardoned because he has bigger things in his life to accomplish.

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I personally didn't connect his monologue with the scene with Leery.  If he didn't have a quickie with her before he got married (which was unexplained, why he decided to wait until marriage... I'm imagining it would have been rare in that society), there was even less reason to do so now.  

 

29 minutes ago, gingerella said:

I don't think he had any pre-marriage sex because he admits he's a virgin, and it seems all his mates know this to be true a well.

But the question of WHY he chose to be a virgin until married remains unanswered. It wasn't the standard thing for men to do. Even his mates didn't understand it and ribbed him about it. 

He wasn't religious enough to do it for God—like most others who might make that pledge to themselves.  Perhaps his parents were a love match and that is why he made that decision? One thing we DO know is that he admired them both. 

But I agree with @Camera One. If he wouldn't bed Leery before he was married, he was less likely to do so after.  The test he was experiencing with Leery... by the water... without much on... was how he would handle his 1st fight with his Bride. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

2 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

 

But the question of WHY he chose to be a virgin until married remains unanswered. It wasn't the standard thing for men to do. Even his mates didn't understand it and ribbed him about it. 

He wasn't religious enough to do it for God—like most others who might make that pledge to themselves.  Perhaps his parents were a love match and that is why he made that decision? One thing we DO know is that he admired them both. 

But I agree with @Camera One. If he wouldn't bed Leery before he was married, he was less likely to do so after.  The test he was experiencing with Leery... by the water... without much on... was how he would handle his 1st fight with his Bride. 

I agree with you both, we don't know why he chose to remain a virgin in an era when that would have been strange, though I feel it's because of his parents and them being a love match, as you say.

I think you're on to something there. But I also think Leery made him realize how much he had with Claire because he knew then he would never have had that with Leery if he'd settled for a local lass (though I think he would have never married than marry just because it was expected) because he considered himself a loser what with having a price on his head. It must have blown his mind to find himself married to this extraordinary woman with whom he was falling in love when he probably thought he might never have anyone.

[SassAndSnacks]

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

One thing about this episode thats been on my mind is this - in the opening scene Jaime is talking about his life choices and saying he hadn't thought he was being deliberate but rather he was just taking steps forward to keep moving. But then one day he realized that all those steps are what led him to where he is right now, and he realizes he is a man now. Heady stuff, which is jarring because we see a blond woman walking towards him out of focus slightly, by the river, but we can tell it looks like Leery, giving me an ominous feeling of dread and thinking, "Nooooo, she isn't the one for Jaime!" Then we see that scene play out in the episode and Leery tries to get Jaime to be with her and cheat on Claire and he rebuffs her saying "I won't break my vows to Claire", or something like that. I am trying to resolve the opening scene voice over with seeing the actual scene unfold in the episode. I'm wondering if his thinking by the river, and his refusal of what would have been an easy quickie with someone else, was a deeper reckoning of how much he already loved Claire? I know they'd already had their emotionally intense scene when they stopped to water the horses on the way home, and he'd said he'd forgiven her for anything she would ever do already because that was no choice for him because he was falling in love with her. Was his rebuff of Leery another level of the same realization? Or maybe that's where he realized that he'd need to find a way to resolve the anger he knew Claire was still feeling after the spanking?

I don't think I should/can respond to this right now.  I have very strong feelings where Laoghaire is concerned, and I'm trying to be careful what I say to the three of you. 

3 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

I know everyone is annoyed that Jamie doesn’t tell Laoghaire that he’s in love with Claire but he hasn’t told Claire he’s in love with her yet

 

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Really? I thought he had already by the end of their wedding night, or somewhere along the way after that, no? I cannot recall an exact scene but I thought they both told the other they love one another. Did that happen in the make up scene or was he saying he wanted her? Alot of the time I can't make out the exact words without blasting them several times because the dialogue is quieter. I think in the make up scene he's saying, "I want you, tell me you want me" and she says, "I do" but at first I thought he was telling her he loved her.

They definitely haven't said the I Love Yous yet.  Trust me here.  

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

But the question of WHY he chose to be a virgin until married remains unanswered. It wasn't the standard thing for men to do. Even his mates didn't understand it and ribbed him about it. 

This is a point that I don't believe is ever explained in the show, but careful book readers know it.  This is one area where the show needed to do more.  

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

because he considered himself a loser what with having a price on his head.

I don't know that he thought this per se.  I think it was more that he didn't want to drag someone else into his current mess, and he certainly didn't feel like he could "be a man" and provide for a potential wife.  

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

It must have blown his mind to find himself married to this extraordinary woman with whom he was falling in love when he probably thought he might never have anyone.

I think this is very true.

Edited March 19, 2021 by SassAndSnacks

[Cdh20]

I know we all took one look at Jamie & did not assume that at 22 he was still a virgin! 

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Really? I thought he had already by the end of their wedding night, or somewhere along the way after that, no? I cannot recall an exact scene but I thought they both told the other they love one another. Did that happen in the make up scene or was he saying he wanted her? Alot of the time I can't make out the exact words without blasting them several times because the dialogue is quieter. I think in the make up scene he's saying, "I want you, tell me you want me" and she says, "I do" but at first I thought he was telling her he loved her.

I also thought that perhaps he sees Leery as what he assumed his life would end up as - with a lass like her, not much of a connection but she likes him well enough and he probably never thought he'd ever fall in love, let alone with a woman like Claire. So that's what I thought the initial opening voice over meant - he sees this girl who's made a pass at him before and he knows he can have her, but he now realizes that his life is going to be so much more than he ever dreamed and he has to find a way to repair things with Claire ASAP.

I don't think he had any pre-marriage sex because he admits he's a virgin, and it seems all his mates know this to be true a well.

I meant to bring up that scene between Jaime and Colum! It was indeed a great and very telling scene. In it, Jaime shows his prowess in moderating situations that could get very out of hand quickly. I liked how he gave Colum his run down about how "that prince is being pampered in France, he's not coming back, and there is no army, you know that, I know that, let Dougal think he can make a difference until such time that it's clear this guy isn't coming back here." It showed his diplomacy skills in diffusing volatile situations, and I think it probably made Colum more annoyed because he can see that Jaime would make for a much better Laird than Dougal ever would. It also made me look at Jaime as a man, not as a hottie, which he claims for himself at the beginning of the episode too. He doesn't say much, but it's clear his mind retains details and information and he's very good at reading a situation and knowing how to play it, which makes me hope he is eventually pardoned because he has bigger things in his life to accomplish.

Jamie uses a lot of lovely words to Claire in 107 & 109 but not “I love you”. 

[Beeyago]

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

I'm not asking for any info that is revealed after this episode, just wondering if you guys thought the above too when you first watched this or if you took it differently? I guess the fact that the show opens with Leery leering at him, and she throws herself at him later on in the actual scene, I'm trying to resolve his voice over and what it means with the actual scene...without spoilering myself! @Beeyago, @SassAndSnacks, @Cdh20, what sayeth you all?

I just think the entire episode was a series of big decisions Jamie needed to make to establish who he was going to be as a man, thus the opening voice over. One of which ended up being - what would he do when faced with the opportunity to be unfaithful to Claire?  And it came at a time when things weren’t going so smoothly between them so he was basically at a crossroads. So when opportunity knocked, and the physical temptations were strong, he proved to himself just how strong his feelings were for Claire when he made the decision to pull away from Leery and make amends with Claire somehow. 
 
Not sure if that’s what your question was. Or maybe I just rambled on about the wrong point. Lol. 

[gingerella]

3 minutes ago, Beeyago said:

I just think the entire episode was a series of big decisions Jamie needed to make to establish who he was going to be as a man, thus the opening voice over. One of which ended up being - what would he do when faced with the opportunity to be unfaithful to Claire?  And it came at a time when things weren’t going so smoothly between them so he was basically at a crossroads. So when opportunity knocked, and the physical temptations were strong, he proved to himself just how strong his feelings were for Claire when he made the decision to pull away from Leery and make amends with Claire somehow. 
 
Not sure if that’s what your question was. Or maybe I just rambled on about the wrong point. Lol. 

No, I think you're explanation makes the most sense to me. It resonates with the story as I know it thus far. You all are correct re him not yet saying 'I love you' to Claire. He's said things like "Does this wanting you ever stop?" and "I want you so much, tell me you want me", but neither has said the words...I think once they do, it will be a big deal and solidify a lot for them, though Im.nit sure what that really means!

Thank you for your thoughtful replies, they e helped me understand  and distill these characters a bit better without feeling like I've been spoiled! 

[Pallas]

The episode credits (writer, director) that come after the opening theme used to pan over a still-life of items evocative of the upcoming episode. Starting here, in the second half of season 1, it's a living portrait: a moving image. From .pdf to .gif.

[mythoughtis]

On 3/17/2021 at 2:02 PM, Beeyago said:

Good grief, it was the 1700's in the highlands of Scotland, it happened, get over it.  And they are actors!  Caitriona was not whipped by Sam on set🙄🤦‍♀️

Not only this… but John Wayne spanked   Maureen O’Hara in the movie McClintock decades ago.  That movie showed a time period much later than this one.   
Claire gave as good as she got.  I don’t see anyone objecting to her bit of domestic violence or for killing a man or for knocking Dougal out( which had nothing to do with his touching her and everything to do with picking up her food supplies and escaping).