Trini April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 So in the latest episode Barry gets support, love, and guidance from each of his three dads, and Iris' one dad... convinces her boyfriend to lying to her. (While her mentor just got killed off.) Iris isn't the central character, so I'm not expecting the same amount of focus or screentime, but are the writers really so blind to the double standard they've set with the way Joe treats his two kids so differently? How many episodes will we get this season? 23. 2 Link to comment
Oscirus April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 (edited) Is it a big deal on Brooklyn Nine-Nine? It probably comes up as conversations/ situations deem. The same should go here or on any show, imo. They are people doing their jobs. Yes it is. It's pretty much the biggest cause of conflict on that show and it even comes out in the way that the captain and his husband communicates with everybody else on this show. While I admit it shouldn't matter, I have a hard time believing that going through the ranks and likely being discriminated against every step of the way doesn't have any effect on the captain. While Linda hasn't been involved in any Flash-related stuff directly, she clearly wanted to be involved in Barry's life much more than Iris does and seems more keyed into Barry's feelings (and Iris's) than Barry or Iris are. I wish that was true, but, Iris has been way more interested in being involved in Barry's life then Linda. Iris goes to science events just for Barry, she threw a big party to meet the friends in Barry's life. Hell, she's shown on numerous occasions that she's interested in the Flash stuff. Barry is the one shutting Iris out of his life not vice versa. Edited April 4, 2015 by Oscirus 2 Link to comment
Actionmage April 4, 2015 Author Share April 4, 2015 While I admit it shouldn't matter, I have a hard time believing that going through the ranks and likely being discriminated against every step of the way doesn't have any effect on the captain. While I would also like a nice, nuanced story of Captain Singh, do you want the folks who are doing such a disservice to regular characters to get near this particular subject? I do not trust these writers with a story that could harm the show faster than Barry breaks the sound barrier. Not that the story would be harmful, the writers that think that our nominal hero boasting about a private prison is an okay look. I still think that the best treatment, outside of a centric, is to treat him the same as any captain. Link to comment
CabotCove April 4, 2015 Share April 4, 2015 (edited) Is it part of the gender essentialist presentation of Iris the show has been happily perpetuating? Since she is treated in-show as seemingly casual about her studies and job ( which is weird, as Iris is somewhere between Masters and Doctor academic-wise), it adds to her "little woman"-seeming.Is it that we have seen her in food service while the guys and Caitlin have their adventures? We have yet to have the men do/talk about any food prep to the degree Iris has. Barry and Joe have only been shown getting to-go pizza. As did Dr. Stein. Why can't Joe or Barry or Eddie have a special dish or be commented on as being good in the kitchen too. Strangely, I didn't get the impression that Clarissa Stein stayed home and cooked, though I'd bet she could cook/ have a special dish she makes. Cooking: not just for lady characters, Show. LOL, the genderism in this show is getting ridiculous. I dont know what went wrong, the first few episodes of the show were not like this and the show was very promising on the gender front Imo. Now its a different story. Yes - I really do like that Iris is very soft and feminine - because, let's be honest, black women characters are often portrayed as almost asexual (with the exception of Olivia and Annalise - but that's because of Shonda Rhymes). Usually she's the sassy sidekick or the ignored friend who never gets a love interest. Its not about her being feminine, speaking for me I have no problem with her being feminine, its the enforced strict gender roles and stereotypes, I find problematic with this show right now. Edited April 4, 2015 by Conell 2 Link to comment
Trini April 5, 2015 Share April 5, 2015 I've also noticed that Iris is usually absent from the show promos/trailers; that's on the network, though. However, it's a symptom of her being left out of most of the action and main plots on the show. 4 Link to comment
driedfruit April 5, 2015 Share April 5, 2015 Even when she's involved though, like 1.15 and 1.09, she's still excluded. But she was in the CTV promos for those. But then I always prefer CTV promos to CW ones since they're more telling of the episode. 2 Link to comment
Lord Malvolio April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 Ok, well this is the thread to ask it, so don't hate.... WHY IS IRIS BLACK???? There I said it. Obviously, they added it as a modern take on her and she was white in the comics, but EVERY White guy has the hots for her? And she seems to ONLY date white guys with ZERO black guys even looking at her, so again I ask, why is she black? Plus, if we ever see Wally West show up, he will now have to be black as all the West's are black now. Don't get me wrong, I like the characters/actors, but just don't get why they had to change it for sake of changing them for diversity sake. And why did the make the police captain gay??? Again, they made him gay for diversity sake... And don't get me started on the chic from Arrow on why she dresses like a nerd hooker ALL the time (or her cougar Mom)??? Ahhh the CW at its prime.... Link to comment
Trini April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 (edited) WHY IS IRIS BLACK???? The producers have actually addressed this directly.(Spoiler for possible Season 2 storyline.) Short answer: Wally West is black in the comics. And why did the make the police captain gay??? Again, they made him gay for diversity sake... Again, the character is gay in the comics. Edited April 10, 2015 by Trini 1 Link to comment
jaytee1812 April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 Why does there have to be a reason the Wests are black or the police captain is gay? Writers are never asked for the reason their characters are straight or white. 10 Link to comment
CabotCove April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 Obviously, they added it as a modern take on her and she was white in the comics, but EVERY White guy has the hots for her? And she seems to ONLY date white guys with ZERO black guys even looking at her, so again I ask, why is she black? "Every" white guy has only been 3. 3 Link to comment
Sakura12 April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 That's what I was wondering. Iris has only had Barry and Eddie interested in her. 1 Link to comment
Oscirus April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 (edited) I guess Cisco said she was hot, but he's obviously not white. Oh, shoot. I can't believe I forgot about tony Edited April 10, 2015 by Oscirus 1 Link to comment
driedfruit April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 I guess Cisco said she was hot, but he's obviously not white. I hated how they had Cisco say that. The girl was dropping by everyday, so you'd think that would earn her a "She seems nice." instead. Link to comment
Xander April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 The only black guy I recall Iris meeting on this show is her dad. Should he also be an option? (please, no jokes about Barry and Iris being siblings. ha) Link to comment
Lokiberry April 11, 2015 Share April 11, 2015 Ok, well this is the thread to ask it, so don't hate.... WHY IS IRIS BLACK???? There I said it. Obviously, they added it as a modern take on her and she was white in the comics, but EVERY White guy has the hots for her? And she seems to ONLY date white guys with ZERO black guys even looking at her, so again I ask, why is she black? Plus, if we ever see Wally West show up, he will now have to be black as all the West's are black now. Don't get me wrong, I like the characters/actors, but just don't get why they had to change it for sake of changing them for diversity sake. And why did the make the police captain gay??? Again, they made him gay for diversity sake... And don't get me started on the chic from Arrow on why she dresses like a nerd hooker ALL the time (or her cougar Mom)??? Ahhh the CW at its prime.... When most of these comic books were created, all the characters had to be vanilla; no chocolate or rainbow sherbet allowed. The thing is, now we live in a Baskin Robbins society. The choice the tv and film industry is faced with is stick with the original source material, that intentionally excluded all non-vanilla people, or update it to the modern era and embrace the full 32 flavors. 8 Link to comment
FurryFury April 11, 2015 Share April 11, 2015 I dunno, maybe it's my cultural background (I'm not from the US or even the First World), but... does it really matter if Iris is black? I mean, it obviously matters for people who want to have black representation (whom I do understand, at least as a woman who wants more female representation in my fav genres), but why is changing her race such a big deal? I mean, I could understand people flipping out about Idris Elba as Heimdall or black Rapunzel in Once Upon A Time (because they are characters from myths/fairy tale originating in medieval/pre-medieval Europe, so it was at least unexpected to see a race change), but considering Iris is originally from the future (at least in the comics), her being non-white makes a lot of sense. Link to comment
calliope1975 April 11, 2015 Share April 11, 2015 As a biracial woman, which qualifies me for nothing really, and makes my opinion no more valid or less so (yet I wrote it anyway - go figure,) with fictional characters, I'm all for racebending. It might surprise me when announced, but once I think about it, I don't really care. I agree that when comics were created, it was all about white characters. I'm sure creators wrote and drew what they knew, and occasionally, you'd get a Black ______. Since POC representation in almost all media has been woefully behind the demographics of actual living people, I'm all for mixing it up when casting classic characters. 3 Link to comment
CabotCove April 11, 2015 Share April 11, 2015 (edited) Oh, shoot. I can't believe I forgot about tony Yes Tony Woodward (R.I.P) http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Tony_Woodward I mean, I could understand people flipping out about Idris Elba as Heimdall or black Rapunzel in Once Upon A Time (because they are characters from myths/fairy tale originating in medieval/pre-medieval Europe, so it was at least unexpected to see a race change), but considering Iris is originally from the future (at least in the comics), her being non-white makes a lot of sense. I dont really see how thats more a big deal, I would think there were some black people in mediaval Europe, therefore Rapunzel can be reimagined as black. Anyway some people that I heard being against Iris' racebend were mostly angry about the possibility of Wally West being black and without red hair. Iris was also a redhead in the comics. These fans are mad that DC is getting rid of all the gingers. Edited April 11, 2015 by Conell 3 Link to comment
driedfruit April 11, 2015 Share April 11, 2015 These poor oppressed gingers... I don't get it. I dont really see how thats more a big deal, I would think there were some black people in mediaval Europe, therefore Rapunzel can be reimagined as black. European fairy tales have many other versions of them from all over the world anyway. There's a Cinderella in practically every culture. One other version of Repunzel I can think of is from Shahnameh where Rudabeh is an Arab princess. 2 Link to comment
In2You April 12, 2015 Share April 12, 2015 These poor oppressed gingers... I don't get it. European fairy tales have many other versions of them from all over the world anyway. There's a Cinderella in practically every culture. One other version of Repunzel I can think of is from Shahnameh where Rudabeh is an Arab princess. Happily Ever after Fairytales for Every Child which still replays on HBO Family did stories of fairytales reimagined as different minorities. I grew up on that show and they had a black Rapunzel. The setting was the bayous of New Orleans. 1 Link to comment
Trini April 12, 2015 Share April 12, 2015 These poor oppressed gingers... I don't get it. Heh. Lana Lang was supposed to be a redhead, too. Let's all blame Smallville. ;-) 1 Link to comment
FurryFury April 12, 2015 Share April 12, 2015 The thing about rapunzel, she was the only disney princess to have a race change on the show, and the way it was done reeked of tokenism (and we've never seen or heard about her ever again, unlike other princesses who are recurring). Considering there was no need for her to be in that ep anyway, personally I would have preferred to just see, say, Tiana instead. Link to comment
Oscirus April 12, 2015 Share April 12, 2015 Ok, well this is the thread to ask it, so don't hate.... WHY IS IRIS BLACK???? There I said it. Obviously, they added it as a modern take on her and she was white in the comics, but EVERY White guy has the hots for her? And she seems to ONLY date white guys with ZERO black guys even looking at her, so again I ask, why is she black? Plus, if we ever see Wally West show up, he will now have to be black as all the West's are black now. Don't get me wrong, I like the characters/actors, but just don't get why they had to change it for sake of changing them for diversity sake. And why did the make the police captain gay??? Again, they made him gay for diversity sake... And don't get me started on the chic from Arrow on why she dresses like a nerd hooker ALL the time (or her cougar Mom)??? Ahhh the CW at its prime.... There's two conflicting statements here. So lets go with the easiest, the show didn't make the captain gay, the captain was always gay. As a matter of fact, I believe that he's currently dating the Pied Piper in the comics. As to why they made Iris black, even if we ignore the Wally connection, the writers serve not only their comic book demographics but their television audience as well. If her race doesn't affect the story and can get more eyes on the show then why not do it? But I will agree zero black guys looking at her is problematic. More because there hasn't been any black guys that are Iris's age on the show but eh. 1 Link to comment
driedfruit April 12, 2015 Share April 12, 2015 But I will agree zero black guys looking at her is problematic. More because there hasn't been any black guys that are Iris's age on the show but eh. I'm all for more diversity on the show, but unless Iris is getting a black boyfriend for her next love interest, it's really not necessary to have random dudes lusting after her to match up some sort of score. Anyone with eyes can tell she's gorgeous. Now it'd be cool if she got more respect from other characters. 1 Link to comment
Cirien April 12, 2015 Share April 12, 2015 Heh. Lana Lang was supposed to be a redhead, too. Let's all blame Smallville. ;-) Lana Lang was also supposed to the all American girl next door. And Kristin Kreuk quite clearly isn't. The hate that Iris gets, mirrors and echoes the hate that Lana got and it's ....disturbing when you consider *why* that is 2 Link to comment
jaytee1812 April 12, 2015 Share April 12, 2015 Lana Lang was also supposed to the all American girl next door. And Kristin Kreuk quite clearly isn't. The hate that Iris gets, mirrors and echoes the hate that Lana got and it's ....disturbing when you consider *why* that is I've never seen an episode of Smallville, but how is Kristin Kreuk not an all American girl (apart from being Canadian). Or is that just what some people say instead of not white? 3 Link to comment
Lokiberry April 12, 2015 Share April 12, 2015 Lana Lang was also supposed to the all American girl next door. And Kristin Kreuk quite clearly isn't. The hate that Iris gets, mirrors and echoes the hate that Lana got and it's ....disturbing when you consider *why* that is That's a blanket statement. I hated Lana because she was the epitome of a Mary Sue: perfectly perfect in every way, everybody loved her, every kryptofreak wanted to kidnap her, everyone had to feel sorry for her tragic backstory (even when they had tragic backstories themselves), everyone had to worry about how their actions affected her over and above how they affected anyone else, etc. I could go on, believe me. Lana was all take and no give. I don't care about Iris because the show has given me no reason to do so, beyond the fact that she's a love object for Barry. If they want me to get invested in her, they have to give me a compelling story. I'm not here for the ships. I want a story. Lana, as a character, had massive issues that were never addressed because the showrunners viewed her as an object on which they could project their own fantasies. Right now, Iris's agency had been intentionally limited by the men in her life. The question is: will these men be show to be in the wrong, or is this the showrunners ideal of how women should be treated? Is Iris, the object that must be protected from the world she lives in, their perfect woman? Or will the story show that the men in her life have made a terrible, insulting mistake for which they will be held accountable? 3 Link to comment
phoenics April 12, 2015 Share April 12, 2015 Or will the story show that the men in her life have made a terrible, insulting mistake for which they will be held accountable? I think - based on a recent quote by AK - they will be held accountable. Link to comment
Sakura12 April 12, 2015 Share April 12, 2015 I'm a mixed race Asian and I hated Lana with a passion. Her race has nothing to do it. She was just too perfect and everyone fell in love with her. That just made her boring. I don't mind racebending or genderbending, if the actor/actress does well, I can go with it. Now an all white Last Airbender cast was another story. That story took place in Asia like country, some of them should've been Asian and the actors sucked so they couldn't make up for it. Since comic books were created when Race was still a big issue, everyone was mostly white. I don't have an issue with them racebending a few of them to fit with the modern times. Plus isn't Wally West Black in the New 52? Iris and Joe being Black would fit with that. Link to comment
phoenics April 12, 2015 Share April 12, 2015 Plus isn't Wally West Black in the New 52? Iris and Joe being Black would fit with that. Geoff Johns made Wally West black and that is the reason he made Iris and Joe black. It was a purposeful decision. Link to comment
Trini April 12, 2015 Share April 12, 2015 Well, a significant difference between Lana and Iris is that Kruek could 'pass' for white (did most people even know she was half Chinese?); Patton is clearly African-American. So I agree that race was not as much a factor with disliking Lana. 5 Link to comment
driedfruit April 13, 2015 Share April 13, 2015 Lana the character wasn't even racebended since both her bio parents were white. I liked her, but they did give her some of the worst arcs and usually discontinued them from one season to the next, which got really annoying. But any disproportionate hate Lana got was probably due to her being the unattainable dream girl rather than Kristin's race. Link to comment
Sakura12 April 13, 2015 Share April 13, 2015 I'm Asian so I could tell KK was Asian. I thought it was strange when they made both her parents white. If not many people could tell, I guess that's why they did that. Link to comment
phoenics April 13, 2015 Share April 13, 2015 Lana the character wasn't even racebended since both her bio parents were white. I liked her, but they did give her some of the worst arcs and usually discontinued them from one season to the next, which got really annoying. But any disproportionate hate Lana got was probably due to her being the unattainable dream girl rather than Kristin's race. I've always wondered if Chloe didn't exist on the show, if the hatred would have been so bad for Lana. That's because I wonder why the writers always feel the need to separate women into categories: hot vs smart, as if the two couldn't exist together. But then sometimes it feels like women won't accept a female character if she's only hot (even if she's kind) - she HAS to also be smart and a bit dorky in order for women to "get over the fact that she's hot". That's why I think Felicity took off so well - she was supposedly both, with a healthy amount of dorkiness thrown in to "humanize" her. Even then, with a woman who is supposedly just "hot" - what if she's "hot" but kind and sweet? Why isn't that enough? Just as "smart" but not hot is deemed not enough (by a paternalistic society in general). The upshot is that a beautiful and hot woman still isn't good enough - she has to downplay her hotness or whatever with dorkiness and smarts in order to 1) not be intimidating and 2) not be threatening - to both men and women. I feel like Iris has gotten some of that kind of criticism - every time I hear a criticism that she doesn't fit with Barry because she's not into science (even though she's never dissed it to Barry - she's very supportive). It's almost like for some - Iris has to earn Barry's love through education and her career path - which isn't much better than a paternalistic view of women. 4 Link to comment
FurryFury April 13, 2015 Share April 13, 2015 I'm sure hotness and smarts have very little to do with popularity, because it all boils down to the quality of the writing and the acting (with writing being the key). If both girls are equally well-written, nobody would hate on one just because (except for die-hard shippers, but hey, they'll hate on anything that interferes with their ship). Link to comment
smices April 13, 2015 Share April 13, 2015 I think it figures in because often for the younger, female demographic is looking for the character they self-identify with, who is their "stand-in." And they often gravitate towards the "regular" girl and have trouble expanding that definition outside of narrow parameters. 3 Link to comment
FurryFury April 13, 2015 Share April 13, 2015 I understand what you mean, but it really doesn't mean they'll need to dislike the others. I first watched Buffy when I was a teenager, and being a shy nerd naturally strongly identified with Willow - but I still liked Buffy and Cordelia, for instance. Link to comment
phoenics April 13, 2015 Share April 13, 2015 I understand what you mean, but it really doesn't mean they'll need to dislike the others. I first watched Buffy when I was a teenager, and being a shy nerd naturally strongly identified with Willow - but I still liked Buffy and Cordelia, for instance. I have to say that I think writing helps, as you mentioned. There are some shows that actively work to pit fans against one another - soaps are a good example (B&B being the worst culprit), and write dialog and scene designed to put fans at each others' throats. And many of them trade on the "isms" that already exist in the fandoms and on the fans need to self-identify with characters. Buffy, imo, worked because a woman was the star - for some reason these kinds of things don't come up as much when a woman is the star. It's usually always when a guy is the hero. Misogyny and misogynoir ensue. 2 Link to comment
smices April 13, 2015 Share April 13, 2015 That's a good point. Because in Vampire Diaries, for instance, Nina Dobrev is inarguably beautiful and isn't portrayed as dorky at all. But in that case she's the star of the show. It's not like a guy is the lead and there's a dorky counterpoint for female viewers to argue over. Link to comment
FurryFury April 13, 2015 Share April 13, 2015 But she actually is hated by the part of the fandom that doesn't ship her with another character! Deservingly, though. I mean, I've dropped the show in s3 and I was already sick of Elena the Mary Sue, can't even imagine what's it like by s6. Again, writing issue. Link to comment
smices April 13, 2015 Share April 13, 2015 Well, Mary-Sueism is a different issue. I mean, personally I prefer both Bonnie and Caroline to Elena. But the three girls don't feel "pitted" against each other and viewership isn't divided so sharply the way it would be if there was a "whose better for X?" dynamic, with a male lead. Link to comment
bettername2come April 13, 2015 Share April 13, 2015 Bonnie, Caroline and Elena are portrayed as best friends and aren't directly pitted against each other in romantic relationships onscreen. There's crossover in who Caroline and Elena date, but it's never a love triangle. You're supposed to like all of them, because they all like each other. Same for Buffy and Willow. On Arrow, Laurel and Felicity aren't really friends. Caitlin and Iris aren't close. I think it's a lot easier to get into those kinds of fan wars when the females don't have the relationship to counter it. The characters may not be pitted against each other, but it's a lot easier to side with one over the other. 2 Link to comment
FurryFury April 13, 2015 Share April 13, 2015 The lack of female relationships is one of the worst problems on Flarrow, and nothing is done to counter it, unfortunately. The writers simply don't give a damn. 3 Link to comment
driedfruit April 14, 2015 Share April 14, 2015 Flarrow tends to pit women against each other in subtle ways too. Felicity's comments about not being like other girls, Caitlin's only assessment of Iris being that she "talks a lot..." it feels intentional and it's kind of off putting. 1 Link to comment
Oscirus April 14, 2015 Share April 14, 2015 At least mothers exist in Arrow's world. So far I think Cisco is the only person on this show to have a mother. I know that moms die from time to time but this is ridiculous. 3 Link to comment
quarks April 14, 2015 Share April 14, 2015 (edited) Arrow's had a few friendships between women (Laurel/Thea, Thea/Sin, Thea/her friends back in the first season that later vanished from the show, Laurel/Joanna, Moira/her attorney, Felicity/Sara, and now Felicity/Laurel and Laurel/Nyssa) but they've all generally been sidelined. I'm really hoping that Flash explores a Caitlin/Iris friendship. Edited April 14, 2015 by quarks 1 Link to comment
XtremeOne1 April 15, 2015 Share April 15, 2015 Well the writer's have entered a new realm...When Eddie becomes her husband, then he can make decisions for Iris, until then it's up to Joe. I just hope Joe gets a great dowry first and Iris remembers she isn't working after marriage. She's got babies to make! They best be male. 7 Link to comment
Actionmage April 15, 2015 Author Share April 15, 2015 Well the writer's have entered a new realm...When Eddie becomes her husband, then he can make decisions for Iris, until then it's up to Joe. I just hope Joe gets a great dowry first and Iris remembers she isn't working after marriage. She's got babies to make! They best be male. Yep! I am now ready to accept that Barry tore up some space-time something something. That was even more noxious than Joe's been. 1 Link to comment
driedfruit April 15, 2015 Share April 15, 2015 Well the writer's have entered a new realm...When Eddie becomes her husband, then he can make decisions for Iris, until then it's up to Joe. I just hope Joe gets a great dowry first and Iris remembers she isn't working after marriage. She's got babies to make! They best be male. Oh she'll be working, but only in the kitchen, while Eddie consults Joe on the decisions he'll now be making about Iris' life. 1 Link to comment
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