Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[Kate45]

22 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Thanks for responding & explaining. I know Danielle alluded to issues within in the cast in a recent interview, so it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't get along.

Yeah, I think its gone back a while. But, I also believe both are professionals and make it work. There just aren't friends in real life. It's very interesting to me that Candice still follows Danielle's husband, but not her. The whole thing is a bit weird. Do you have the interview that you are talking about? I'd love to read/see what she says.  

[Katsullivan]

8 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

But, I also believe both are professionals and make it work.

The way DP comports herself, I won't give her that much. The fact that CP follows her husband and not her is a pointed statement. 

[Proteus]

20 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

Yeah, I think its gone back a while. But, I also believe both are professionals and make it work. There just aren't friends in real life. It's very interesting to me that Candice still follows Danielle's husband, but not her. The whole thing is a bit weird. Do you have the interview that you are talking about? I'd love to read/see what she says.  

I agree that Candice and Danielle are both professionals. They likely just don't click.

http://dccomicsnews.com/2018/05/30/dcn-exclusive-interview-danielle-panabaker-caitlin-snow-killer-frost-from-the-flash/

DCN: I’ve been a fan of the show since the very beginning, and you’ve been there since day one. We, as viewers, really feel that you’re all one big family. What’s it like working everyday with those guys and girls?

DP: The dynamic has certainly changed over the last four years. I think coming into the show, for a lot of the actors it was their first job, and they were really excited to be there. This has certainly changed, four years later. We are like a family. We do love each other, but no-one’s perfect [we both laugh] and we certainly have our issues too.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Proteus

[ruby24]

That's quite an admission! Damn. To say people were excited to be there and that's the part that's certainly changed?

I have to admit, I want to know what happened, I really do. I had not seen that before, that's quite something. I do feel like you don't see the Flash cast interacting much outside of work, unlike some of the other shows.

There's obviously a problem between her and Candice.

Edited July 18, 2018 by ruby24

[adora721]

I actually think it bled into the show, which explains why Caitlin and Iris never really bonded like you'd expect for years. I just had a difficult exchange with a good friend about how Cailtin seems to quickly grow close and show friendliness to almost everyone, but Iris. Cait seems to do the barest minimum to deal with Iris as Barry's best friend. Whereas Cait:

• Equated her caring about Barry after 1.2 months of knowing him to her caring for Ronnie.
• Said to Fefe that, "It's so good to have another woman to talk to." But then doesn't try to get close to Iris.
• Got close to Stein and Mrs Stein, but doesn't bond with Iris over losing the men they loved on the day of the singularity.
• Hugged Jax and gave him Ronnie's compass, who she'd known for one episode, but hadn't yet hugged Iris. The welcome home party for Henry could have been a great time for them to hug at seeing Barry that happy, but nope.
• Could have high-fived Iris after Iris saved Cait from Peekabo, but nope.
• Told faux Jay she trusted him, almost kissed him, and asked him to remain on E1 after knowing him for a few episodes. No such trust is given to Iris after months of knowing her through Barry, but she lied to Iris for Barry.
• Didn't hug Iris at the engagement announcement; only hugged Barry.
• Didn't hug Iris at the loft housewarming party.
• Claimed to have "loved [Laurel], but hadn't spent a lot of time with Laurel; I can't say Cait's ever claimed to love Iris who she's spent far more time with.
• Tried to help murder Iris (as KF) for seemingly no good reason.

Cait and Iris' friend-like moments are few and far between and don't go beyond the surface. IMO, the distance on screen reflected the distance in real life. I guess by S4, TPTB just couldn't justify them not being close after 4 years. And even now, their closeness seems hecka fake.

[Trini]

This supposed "thing" between Candice and Danielle is probably not as deep as people want it to be.

[Kate45]

48 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I agree that Candice and Danielle are both professionals. They likely just don't click.

http://dccomicsnews.com/2018/05/30/dcn-exclusive-interview-danielle-panabaker-caitlin-snow-killer-frost-from-the-flash/

DCN: I’ve been a fan of the show since the very beginning, and you’ve been there since day one. We, as viewers, really feel that you’re all one big family. What’s it like working everyday with those guys and girls?

DP: The dynamic has certainly changed over the last four years. I think coming into the show, for a lot of the actors it was their first job, and they were really excited to be there. This has certainly changed, four years later. We are like a family. We do love each other, but no-one’s perfect [we both laugh] and we certainly have our issues too.

Thank you so much for sharing! 

I actually have read this article, but I got stuck on a couple of lines that were simply not true from the interviewer and I never finished it. 

Who is she saying had no previous acting experience? Maybe Carlos? 

Everyone else had experience, and this was definitely the biggest job any of them have ever landed up to this point. I know some Danielle fans act as if she did Flash a favor by agreeing to be on the show, but that’s not true. 

I don’t think she said anything that most of us can’t guess. They love each other, but they have issues. I think that’s normal.

To be honest, I knew Danielle and Candice didn’t along that well when season 2 started filming. Danielle is very close friends with Shantel who played Patty in season 2. We got more BTS pics that season than any other season, and a good chunk came from Danielle. She nor Candice have ever done many pics with each other, whereas I have seen more with each of them with different cast members. Also, I saw a con with Candice, Shantel, and Danielle. The clique between Shantel and Danielle was really obvious, and it was super obvious that Candice was not in it. 

[Kate45]

16 minutes ago, adora721 said:

I actually think it bled into the show, which explains why Caitlin and Iris never really bonded like you'd expect for years. I just had a difficult exchange with a good friend about how Cailtin seems to quickly grow close and show friendliness to almost everyone, but Iris. Cait seems to do the barest minimum to deal with Iris as Barry's best friend. Whereas Cait:

• Equated her caring about Barry after 1.2 months of knowing him to her caring for Ronnie.
• Said to Fefe that, "It's so good to have another woman to talk to." But then doesn't try to get close to Iris.
• Got close to Stein and Mrs Stein, but doesn't bond with Iris over losing the men they loved on the day of the singularity.
• Hugged Jax and gave him Ronnie's compass, who she'd known for one episode, but hadn't yet hugged Iris. The welcome home party for Henry could have been a great time for them to hug at seeing Barry that happy, but nope.
• Could have high-fived Iris after Iris saved Cait from Peekabo, but nope.
• Told faux Jay she trusted him, almost kissed him, and asked him to remain on E1 after knowing him for a few episodes. No such trust is given to Iris after months of knowing her through Barry, but she lied to Iris for Barry.
• Didn't hug Iris at the engagement announcement; only hugged Barry.
• Didn't hug Iris at the loft housewarming party.
• Claimed to have "loved [Laurel], but hadn't spent a lot of time with Laurel; I can't say Cait's ever claimed to love Iris who she's spent far more time with.
• Tried to help murder Iris (as KF) for seemingly no good reason.

Cait and Iris' friend-like moments are few and far between and don't go beyond the surface. IMO, the distance on screen reflected the distance in real life. I guess by S4, TPTB just couldn't justify them not being close after 4 years. And even now, their closeness seems hecka fake.

I definitely do NOT think the issues with Candice and Danielle have ever seeped over to the show. Actors don’t have that level of control. If that were true and they did have that level of control, they would have not built the Iris/Caitlin relationship at all in season 4. If they couldn’t or wouldn’t  work with each other, then they show couldn’t have finally passed the Bechdel test in 4B. 

Also, a couple of the hug instances you mention fall into the way the scene was cut. Not because they didn’t actually hug each other. Although, it does beg the question of why they cut their hug. 

I think there are other valid reasons for why they don’t have as many scenes together. 

I don’t think the actresses have any on screen chemistry. Especially, when I compare it to the chemistry of Candice and Emily on screen. 

[adora721]

44 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

I think there are other valid reasons for why they don’t have as many scenes together. 

 

Hey, if you have valid reasons, please let me know. ETA: It's not so much that the actresses have control, but that the TPTB picked up on the tension between the two and wrote accordingly. Plus the possibility of AJK's machinations regarding SB.

Even their S4 scenes are surface, with Iris doing most of the heavy lifting. In "Run, Iris, Run", can't you see how low energy Caitlin was? It's like DP couldn't even bother to try to be enthusiastic. Even her, "You got this girl" was lackluster and not believable at all. The only thing that seemed true was her raising her hands up at the end. And DP promoted the  Iris-centric episode with a picture of herself with everyone else, but Iris: https://twitter.com/dpanabaker/status/973699496847839232

Edited July 18, 2018 by adora721

[BeautifulFlower]

50 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Hey, if you have valid reasons, please let me know. ETA: It's not so much that the actresses have control, but that the TPTB picked up on the tension between the two and wrote accordingly. Plus the possibility of AJK's machinations regarding SB.

Even their S4 scenes are surface, with Iris doing most of the heavy lifting. In "Run, Iris, Run", can't you see how low energy Caitlin was? It's like DP couldn't even bother to try to be enthusiastic. Even her, "You got this girl" was lackluster and not believable at all. The only thing that seemed true was her raising her hands up at the end. And DP promoted the  Iris-centric episode with a picture of herself with everyone else, but Iris: https://twitter.com/dpanabaker/status/973699496847839232

To be fair, there weren't any promotional pictures of the whole team with Iris for that episode. If you want an example, look at her tweet for 4x15. She used  pic with just Killer Frost and Barry. They had a pic of JUST her, but she went with the SB pic

[wingster55]

3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

You know I was just about to say something like "nope, you have to take my word for it because I'm not going to go digging through twitter for it" only for me to on a whim literally type

Thank you for doing so. Much appreciated. 

I really am mostly curious about what happened between them. It had to be something big since CP went from this 

 to the unfollowing  

Edited July 18, 2018 by wingster55

[Starry]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

This supposed "thing" between Candice and Danielle is probably not as deep as people want it to be.

I think it's the opposite. I see people brushing it off as them simply not clicking or not being interested in each other's Instagram posts. I can't agree with this perspective. Candice is an actress who knows that fans watch her likes, follows and unfollows. So does Emily. If they felt the need to publicly distance themselves from Danielle (Emily went as far as to untag Danielle from a Twitter conversation) then the issue is deeper than people believe it to be.

[Katsullivan]

9 hours ago, Kate45 said:

If that were true and they did have that level of control, they would have not built the Iris/Caitlin relationship at all in season 4. If they couldn’t or wouldn’t  work with each other, then they show couldn’t have finally passed the Bechdel test in 4B. 

 

Isn't this missing the obvious? DP didn't want to work with CP, and AJK wanted DP to be happy. AJK left in season 4, and the first few episodes in season 4B after his exit started having more WestSnow content because the new showrunners aren't beholden to DP. Similarly, CP felt free to distance herself from an unpleasant castmate because she wasn't worried any more that offending DP could cost her her job. 

 

14 minutes ago, Starry said:

I think it's the opposite. I see people brushing it off as them simply not clicking or not being interested in each other's Instagram posts. I can't agree with this perspective. Candice is an actress who knows that fans watch her likes, follows and unfollows. So does Emily. If they felt the need to publicly distance themselves from Danielle (Emily went as far as to untag Danielle from a Twitter conversation) then the issue is deeper than people believe it to be.

Just about to say the same thing. There's a vast difference between unfollowing a work colleague on social media and deleting pictures of them off your account. That's the equivalent of cutting someone's face out of your shared pictures. 

[adora721]

9 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

To be fair, there weren't any promotional pictures of the whole team with Iris for that episode. If you want an example, look at her tweet for 4x15. She used  pic with just Killer Frost and Barry. They had a pic of JUST her, but she went with the SB pic

Well, then DP should have just used a pic of Iris in her costume. Or ask to use a pic that was only accessible to her as a member of the cast that had Iris in it. Or she could screen shot a pic of Iris and the team from the promotional video. These are not hard things to do or to have someone on the crew do for her. 

In your example, she, once again, is pandering to the SB fans by using a pic of KF and Barry. These are all suspect choices.

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

 

 

Just about to say the same thing. There's a vast difference between unfollowing a work colleague on social media and deleting pictures of them off your account. That's the equivalent of cutting someone's face out of your shared pictures. 

Yeah, deleting someone's picture means that something went down. 

I was on Shethority's website and Danielle has one pic on there. I know some have said she's apart of it, but it doesn't feel like to me. I also notice when I first heard about Shethority, it was with the female group picture from the crossover. It's up on the website, and I never noticed that DP wasn't in the pic. It was from the set. Now, I don't know if DP was on set or not;but if she was, wonder why she wasn't in the pic? I've seen someone mention that DP and Shantel were like very close. The other day I saw a screenshot of DP's instagram post about directing and I saw Shantel liked it. While typing this, I'm wondering something. Does DP seem to be close with any other Arrowverse female cast members?

[Starry]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Just about to say the same thing. There's a vast difference between unfollowing a work colleague on social media and deleting pictures of them off your account. That's the equivalent of cutting someone's face out of your shared pictures. 

Deleting those pics was the cherry on top but the unfollow, on both Instagram and Twitter, was enough of a statement for me. Fans want to act like Candice is someone who works a regular job and just got tired of the boring posts of a coworker. She is not. She's a celebrity with followers who are nosy and love to gossip. If she isn't worried about people speculating and possibly assuming the worst of her, especially when Danielle still follows her, then that means the issue is deep. If Danielle was just someone she wasn't close to she would have ignored her posts without unfollowing. And it's something that goes beyond Iris vs Caitlin and Westallen vs Snowbarry because Emily did the same.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Starry

[Velocity23]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Yeah, deleting someone's picture means that something went down. 

I was on Shethority's website and Danielle has one pic on there. I know some have said she's apart of it, but it doesn't feel like to me. I also notice when I first heard about Shethority, it was with the female group picture from the crossover. It's up on the website, and I never noticed that DP wasn't in the pic. It was from the set. Now, I don't know if DP was on set or not;but if she was, wonder why she wasn't in the pic? I've seen someone mention that DP and Shantel were like very close. The other day I saw a screenshot of DP's instagram post about directing and I saw Shantel liked it. While typing this, I'm wondering something. Does DP seem to be close with any other Arrowverse female cast members?

She is besties with Katie Cassidy. They even lived together in Vancouver. 

[wingster55]

What pics did she delete? Were they just of her and DP? I just scrolled through her entire insta and there still are a few pics with Danielle in them. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by wingster55

[BeautifulFlower]

14 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

What pics did she delete? Were they just of her and DP? I just scrolled through her entire insta and there still are a few pics with Danielle in them. 

Are they just of her and Danielle? Because I don't think Candice will delete pics with the other cast members in it.

[Proteus]

15 hours ago, Trini said:

This supposed "thing" between Candice and Danielle is probably not as deep as people want it to be.

Yeah, and Danielle is not some awful person. 

[BeautifulFlower]

59 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Yeah, and Danielle is not some awful person. 

And how would  we know that? We all don't Danielle personally, so she may or may not be an awful person. 

I can't blame some for thinking this. Danielle has done some shady things in the past. Something went down between them and they're not close.

[Proteus]

20 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

And how would  we know that? We all don't Danielle personally, so she may or may not be an awful person. 

I can't blame some for thinking this. Danielle has done some shady things in the past. Something went down between them and they're not close.

I don't think Danielle has ever done anything shady. 

As for saying Danielle is not an awful person, I do not think she is. The stuff said about her would never be said about Candice who we all here also don't know personally.

Just my two cents.

[Chip]

Hi Everyone,

We have veered off-topic in this thread and are spending more time speculating on the motivations of the actors in their real lives instead of discussing the characters on The Flash. Please keep this topic as a discussion of the show and characters and not feuds and alleged on set drama. If you want to share interviews and other media appearances, there is another thread for that.

Thanks!

Chip

[adora721]

Thought this should go here; a really excellent debate about politics, feminism, and Iris West-Allen: http://valeriemperez.tumblr.com/post/176518969618/this-post-was-way-too-long-for-me-to-reblog-the

[adora721]

Another Ladies With Gumption podcast on treatment of POCs in the Arrowverse: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/ladieswgumption/episodes/2018-08-13T01_55_28-07_00

 

"The Flash" starts at 1:05:40 

[adora721]

The LWG brought up an interesting point in the recent podcast about how POC's faces and pain are not seen or recognized. Well, there's research that this lack of empathy towards POCs even affects medical treatment. Here's a Washington Post excerpt:

"Researchers at the University of Virginia quizzed white medical students and residents to see how many believed inaccurate and at times "fantastical" differences about the two races -- for example, that blacks have less sensitive nerve endings than whites or that black people's blood coagulates more quickly. They found that fully half thought at least one of the false statements presented was possibly, probably or definitely true.

Moreover, those who held false beliefs often rated black patients' pain as lower than that of white patients and made less appropriate recommendations about how they should be treated."

Here's a National Institutes of Health research article about it, too.

About a year ago on Tumblr, I responded to a SB who detailed all the reasons she shipped Barry with Caitlin, and almost every, single thing she discussed could describe Barry and Iris. It was like she had completely ignored or blocked out Iris' experience with Barry, so she couldn't see the similarities. 

[phoenics]

On 8/14/2018 at 9:04 PM, adora721 said:

 

About a year ago on Tumblr, I responded to a SB who detailed all the reasons she shipped Barry with Caitlin, and almost every, single thing she discussed could describe Barry and Iris. It was like she had completely ignored or blocked out Iris' experience with Barry, so she couldn't see the similarities. 

Erasure of black women from their own narratives to replace them with their white fave is a very common pattern with racially problematic fandoms.

[phoenics]

Continuing the discussion katsullivan and I were having from here:

What's exhausting as a black fan - or any fan who is anti-racist - is that we can't escape the racism.  Even if the show tries to write in a race-neutral way like on the Flash - ignoring the racial problematic nature of that, we STILL have to deal with the racism in the fandom, how the showrunners run the show, how the PR/Media people promote the show... all of it.

In S1 and 2 of The Flash, the media, fandom and showMedia tried to erase Iris West from the show in terms of importance.  Honestly they are still doing this on some level.  Even the producers telling Candice Patton to avoid social media was terrible advice - because social media is a JOB requirement - you HAVE to promote the show and do media to survive as an actor/actress.  Just telling your black female leads (Anna from Titans was told the SAME THING) to disappear from their biggest tool to promote themselves and possibly elevate their voices and their presence is HORRIBLE.  Why can't these producers come up with a plan to NOT cave into racism and do their jobs to promote their black female leads?  I've been watching Krypton (I binged the whole season) and the 2nd billed actress is black.  She's the female lead of the show and she doesn't have a twitter.  She has an instagram, but that's a bit easier to distance on than twitter.  The show promotes a 9th billed (NINTH BILLED) actress (white, of course) over her on its social media.  You already know why.  Even though the black female lead's love story with the male lead is tragically doomed (a la Romeo & Juliet), the show still didn't promote it.  I didn't even KNOW the show had a black female lead until I decided to binge watch it.  How fucked up is that?  But now, after a questionable character assassinating storyline, the black female lead's prominence on the show has evaporated and the 9th billed white female character is there sucking up screentime and sucking up to the male lead.

I'm so sick of seeing this play out over and over again.

[Katsullivan]

24 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Why can't these producers come up with a plan to NOT cave into racism and do their jobs to promote their black female leads?

Because they don't want to. Because they want to get diversity "points" for casting a black actress, but they're depending on - heck, they're really egging on - racist fandom to give them a "reason" to write her off. That way they can claim "we wanted the black actress, but the audience wasn't ready for her." 

[adora721]

26 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I'm so sick of seeing this play out over and over again.

So, the logical question is why do this at all? That is, why cast POC as leads if they're going to treat them this way? What benefit is there to do this and then run away from the good, bad, and ugly responsibilities that come with it?

[Katsullivan]

2 minutes ago, adora721 said:

So, the logical question is why do this at all? That is, why cast POC as leads if they're going to treat them this way? What benefit is there to do this and then run away from the good, bad, and ugly responsibilities that come with it?

There are 2 main reasons, I think. Firstly: see above. They get the "points" for the attempt, and can still depend on the racism of the "audience" so they don't have to follow through. 

Secondly: marketing. They get a black female lead, they get black viewers (black female viewers are a significant portion of TV watchers) and if they are smart enough to cast a white female character, they also get white viewers who are watching the show to see "justice done" i.e. the black character demoted, demeaned, and hopefully even killed off the show, to prop up the white character. You can't quantify the sheer number of people who hate the Flash, hate it even more now that Iris is more and more prominent, but keep watching it anyway on the slim hope that some day they could see her humiliated and killed off, Barry declare he never loved her, and Caitlin or some other appropriate white woman take her place.

[adora721]

7 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

You can't quantify the sheer number of people who hate the Flash, hate it even more now that Iris is more and more prominent, but keep watching it anyway on the slim hope that some day they could see her humiliated and killed off, Barry declare he never loved her, and Caitlin or some other appropriate white woman take her place.

If this is true, then none of us can stop fighting to change this dynamic even though it's exhausting at times. Think back to any of the strides made in this or any country for those who were the "other" or the underprivileged; people could have given up in despair or just sheer exhaustion or pessimism, but they kept fighting. I'm grateful for those people who may not have seen the fruits of their labor in their time, but fought for it to be achieved in ours.  I remind myself that wars aren't fought for the present, but for the future. I love Candice's belief that she'll take all the negative hits now so that other POCs won't have to take any hits in the future. I just pray she has good people around her and a source of inner strength when she's tempted to give up.

[phoenics]

25 minutes ago, adora721 said:

If this is true, then none of us can stop fighting to change this dynamic even though it's exhausting at times. Think back to any of the strides made in this or any country for those who were the "other" or the underprivileged; people could have given up in despair or just sheer exhaustion or pessimism, but they kept fighting. I'm grateful for those people who may not have seen the fruits of their labor in their time, but fought for it to be achieved in ours.  I remind myself that wars aren't fought for the present, but for the future. I love Candice's belief that she'll take all the negative hits now so that other POCs won't have to take any hits in the future. I just pray she has good people around her and a source of inner strength when she's tempted to give up.

Things aren't going to change for the better if PoC are told they have to constantly keep exhausting themselves, causing harm to themselves and pain while fighting this, while we let the patriarchy and the supremacist system go unchecked.  That's the same thing as the white showrunners telling CP et al to "avoid social media" as if all of the responsibility for the racism and fighting it is on Candice alone.  It's almost like saying, well, SHE is the reason the racism exists - thus SHE should have to solve it.

Fuck that.  No - THEY should.

We have to start fighting the showrunners and DEMANDING that they support their black female leads.  They could - a la Prince Harry - nip a LOT of this in the bud and send a strong message that racism won't be tolerated.  But these showrunners consistently don't do that and often write themselves into trope corners with their black female lead characters, allow the media messaging to run away toward the white women on the show and then later on, after everything falls apart, throw their hands up and go "it just didn't work out" as if they didn't cause this problem.

45 minutes ago, adora721 said:

So, the logical question is why do this at all? That is, why cast POC as leads if they're going to treat them this way? What benefit is there to do this and then run away from the good, bad, and ugly responsibilities that come with it?

Another point is that they don't really think the racism is bad.  They're fine with having racist fans as long as they watch and put money in their pockets.  The black actress is just a number to them too and a way to get brownie points for "diversity".  They want all of the benefits of casting a black woman, but then when the racism pops up, they prefer that she deal with that on her own.

Black women actresses need better agents and lawyers to take care of them when this shit happens.  My job would never put me in a position where I was getting flattened by racist hatred without standing up to it.

[adora721]

55 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Things aren't going to change for the better if PoC are told they have to constantly keep exhausting themselves, causing harm to themselves and pain while fighting this, while we let the patriarchy and the supremacist system go unchecked.  That's the same thing as the white showrunners telling CP et al to "avoid social media" as if all of the responsibility for the racism and fighting it is on Candice alone.  It's almost like saying, well, SHE is the reason the racism exists - thus SHE should have to solve it.

Fighting injustice has never been fair, easy, or painless, and the only thing we have total control over is what we do or don't do. Yes, TPTB should fight the racism, too. But, as you said, they are either in denial or are profiting from it; so, they don't have the same incentives to do anything. Therefore, change will have to be pushed by the audience that cares about change. That means POCs and their allies. 

Now, I'm all for taking a break, stepping away for a bit, and recharging your batteries; that's totally the wise thing to do. However, I'm learning that managing fear, anger, and hurt feelings is necessary when dealing with hateful people and things in life, otherwise, it will drain you or worse, turn you into someone embittered by the fight. And I'm not giving those people that victory over me.

Here's an encouraging bit of news: 

Edited September 16, 2018 by adora721

[phoenics]

I know you don't mean to come off this way, adora721 - but right now I feel like you're trying to lecture me about fighting oppression?  Or shaming me because I'm feeling particularly downtrodden after 4+ years of fighting for this on the Flash, 3 years of fighting on Sleepy Hollow and now seeing the mess happening with Titans and Krypton?

Were you here fighting hard in S1 of The Flash?  Or Sleepy Hollow?  If not, then maybe you don't get how hopeless I'm feeling right now after seeing this Krypton mess.  And right now I don't have the energy to fight back - nor do I care to be lectured because I don't have the energy to fight back.  I also am beginning to wonder if our fighting back is solving the problem - or just the symptoms.  Hence, why I wondered in the first place if we shouldn't be lobbying for better laws, etc., to force studios/production houses/media outlets to protect their employees.

Edited September 16, 2018 by phoenics

[adora721]

46 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I know you don't mean to come off this way, adora721 - but right now I feel like you're trying to lecture me about fighting oppression?  Or shaming me because I'm feeling particularly downtrodden after 4+ years of fighting for this on the Flash, 3 years of fighting on Sleepy Hollow and now seeing the mess happening with Titans and Krypton?

Were you here fighting hard in S1 of The Flash?  Or Sleepy Hollow?  If not, then maybe you don't get how hopeless I'm feeling right now after seeing this Krypton mess.  And right now I don't have the energy to fight back - nor do I care to be lectured because I don't have the energy to fight back.  I also am beginning to wonder if our fighting back is solving the problem - or just the symptoms.  Hence, why I wondered in the first place if we shouldn't be lobbying for better laws, etc., to force studios/production houses/media outlets to protect their employees.

 

I'm sorry that you're feeling so low. And my intention wasn't to lecture you or to shame you, but to encourage you. Guess I didn't do a good job.  MLK Jr, I am not. Please believe that I wish you the best and I wouldn't intentionally try to make you feel worse. I'm very sorry I hurt you.

I do know what it is to fight a seemingly losing battle in my personal life with my family members, so I can understanding feelings of exhaustion and despair. And I can say from experience that walking away for a time, even years, can do wonders for one's emotional health and perspective. However, when it's not possible or right to walk away, then you have to learn to manage your feelings and find coping skills.

My favorite proverb is, "Above all else, guard your heart for it is the wellspring of life." Prov. 4:23. That's what I've been learning to do so that I don't lose hope in humanity.

ETA: Walking away may mean not watching the shows that cause you pain for a while or avoiding social media about them or both. And watching them again only once you feel better and stronger.  Walking away may also mean finding other shows that are treating POCs better and watching those to give you some hope.

Edited September 16, 2018 by adora721

[Starry]

I get feeling hopeless and dejected. I've been in the fandom since the second half of s1 and after years of fighting Iris still hasn't been afforded her canon storylines. On the other hand, fans of other characters complain for one minute and the showrunners immediately cave to them. They weren't given romantic SB but they got the Killer Frost murder kiss and some baiting with Savitar. Since that stuff didn't amount to anything plot-wise the showrunners didn't really HAVE to do that.

WestAllen is canon. Iris being a reporter is canon. Fans didn't go up to the writers and demand they pair Barry and Iris together and make Iris a reporter. How come we have to fight for reporter Iris five seasons into the show while Caitlin fans demand OTF, a fandom made-up dynamic that never existed in the show and was constructed to erase Iris and her black family, and the writers give them the Snowbarrisco team-up in Flashtime? Something that made no sense as, per their own canon, Iris was the only one who didn't get tired in Flashtime?

We've been fighting for reporter Iris, for WestAllen, for Iris + Joe, for Iris + Wally, for Iris + female friends, for Iris in the crossovers and the only thing we got was WestAllen. And even with WestAllen they're still not writing them at their best considering that they have the source material as a blueprint. Case in point is their wedding. One of the biggest romantic milestones for a couple was used to kick-start a crossover that sidelined WestAllen in favor of not one, but TWO white couples, one of which was a NAZI couple!

As for the STAR Labs-centered plots that were mentioned in another thread, STAR Labs definitely sidelines Iris and Joe. It also sidelines Barry's intelligence but since Caitlin and Wells have no reason to exist without STAR Labs, especially when they don't want to commit to villanous Killer Frost, we get no reporter Iris and no detective Joe so that we can spend all the time in there. All the DCTV shows have team dynamics but The Flash is literally the worst of them all. It's also the one where two of their original white team members live and breathe in the Flash lair. If CP had played Caitlin and Jesse L. Martin had played Wells, if DP had played Iris and TC had played Joe, would we be dealing with STAR Labs sucking up 90% of the airtime and downplaying Barry Allen's intelligence five seasons into the show?

*

Spoiler

The new Wells is a master detective from another universe. He and Ralph are getting the investigating Cicada plot when detective Joe West and investigative reporter Iris West-Allen are right there!

 

I'm a white woman and those things are so frustrating to me. I can't even begin to imagine how black fans must feel, especially when they have to deal with racism outside of what happens on a TV show.

I don't watch Krypton but I plan to watch Titans. I'm really hoping for the best but seeing the backlash against Anna Diop isn't encouraging in the least. The showrunners can't say anything to racist idiots whining about them casting a dark-skinned black woman to portray an orange alien?? The fact that the Titans interracial couple is apparently not as iconic as WestAllen is even less encouraging.

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

I'm sorry that you're feeling so low. And my intention wasn't to lecture you or to shame you, but to encourage you. Guess I didn't do a good job.  MLK Jr, I am not. Please believe that I wish you the best and I wouldn't intentionally try to make you feel worse. I'm very sorry I hurt you.

I do know what it is to fight a seemingly losing battle in my personal life with my family members, so I can understanding feelings of exhaustion and despair. And I can say from experience that walking away for a time, even years, can do wonders for one's emotional health and perspective. However, when it's not possible or right to walk away, then you have to learn to manage your feelings and find coping skills.

My favorite proverb is, "Above all else, guard your heart for it is the wellspring of life." Prov. 4:23. That's what I've been learning to do so that I don't lose hope in humanity.

ETA: Walking away may mean not watching the shows that cause you pain for a while or avoiding social media about them or both. And watching them again only once you feel better and stronger.  Walking away may also mean finding other shows that are treating POCs better and watching those to give you some hope.

Yeah - I'm avoiding the Krypton boards here and elsewhere because of just not wanting to deal with the BS and even unconscious racism that I see in the posts.  And probably why I will only watch the show in binges, not real time.

The Flash boards aren't bad here and have become a haven so to speak, so I'm more comfortable here.  I just wish I didn't feel deflated about this.  I think after fighting this stuff over multiple shows and then seeing another show pop up where this happened SO fast and so predictably just knocked the wind out of me.  

[phoenics]

10 minutes ago, Starry said:

I get feeling hopeless and dejected. I've been in the fandom since the second half of s1 and after years of fighting Iris still hasn't been afforded her canon storylines. On the other hand, fans of other characters complain for one minute and the showrunners immediately cave to them. They weren't given romantic SB but they got the Killer Frost murder kiss and some baiting with Savitar. Since that stuff didn't amount to anything plot-wise the showrunners didn't really HAVE to do that.

WestAllen is canon. Iris being a reporter is canon. Fans didn't go up to the writers and demand they pair Barry and Iris together and make Iris a reporter. How come we have to fight for reporter Iris five seasons into the show while Caitlin fans demand OTF, a fandom made-up dynamic that never existed in the show and was constructed to erase Iris and her black family, and the writers give them the Snowbarrisco team-up in Flashtime? Something that made no sense as, per their own canon, Iris was the only one who didn't get tired in Flashtime?

We've been fighting for reporter Iris, for WestAllen, for Iris + Joe, for Iris + Wally, for Iris + female friends, for Iris in the crossovers and the only thing we got was WestAllen. And even with WestAllen they're still not writing them at their best considering that they have the source material as a blueprint. Case in point is their wedding. One of the biggest romantic milestones for a couple was used to kick-start a crossover that sidelined WestAllen in favor of not one, but TWO white couples, one of which was a NAZI couple!

As for the STAR Labs-centered plots that were mentioned in another thread, STAR Labs definitely sidelines Iris and Joe. It also sidelines Barry's intelligence but since Caitlin and Wells have no reason to exist without STAR Labs, especially when they don't want to commit to villanous Killer Frost, we get no reporter Iris and no detective Joe so that we can spend all the time in there. All the DCTV shows have team dynamics but The Flash is literally the worst of them all. It's also the one where two of their original white team members live and breathe in the Flash lair. If CP had played Caitlin and Jesse L. Martin had played Wells, if DP had played Iris and TC had played Joe, would we be dealing with STAR Labs sucking up 90% of the airtime and downplaying Barry Allen's intelligence five seasons into the show?

*

  Reveal hidden contents

The new Wells is a master detective from another universe. He and Ralph are getting the investigating Cicada plot when detective Joe West and investigative reporter Iris West-Allen are right there!

 

I'm a white woman and those things are so frustrating to me. I can't even begin to imagine how black fans must feel, especially when they have to deal with racism outside of what happens on a TV show.

I don't watch Krypton but I plan to watch Titans. I'm really hoping for the best but seeing the backlash against Anna Diop isn't encouraging in the least. The showrunners can't say anything to racist idiots whining about them casting a dark-skinned black woman to portray an orange alien?? The fact that the Titans interracial couple is apparently not as iconic as WestAllen is even less encouraging.

I can't even add to this except to wave my "ICAM" flag feebly from my exhausted position on my bed, lol.

I feel like we fight for scraps and barely get the canon that's due to us - and they expect us to just be happy with that because we should be happy with what we've got... how dare we get angry that some Iris West storylines were GIVEN to Caitlin (Zoom, though I'm glad Iris wasn't killed) and that now Caitlin gets a whole season about her retconned backstory that none of us gives a shit about and while the writers constantly jump backwards through hoops to make sure Caitlin is NEVER held to task for anything.

It's enough to make you burn down CW in frustration.

[Trini]

Posting Patrick Sabongui's comments on diversity and his part on The Flash from this interview:

Quote

I had a chance to chat with Patrick and he’s beyond humbled at the response he’s received from the fans. I mentioned Captain Singh’s status as a gay man on a primetime superhero drama and Patrick replied, “I’d also like to add that he’s a person of color. So he represents a severely underrepresented segment of the population. And to me right now, as artists, I don’t think there is a more important responsibility that we have but to represent our population and to represent our world in all of its glorious diversity. And I know there’s an effort in that direction and there’s movement in that direction. But keep in mind, we’re going into Season 5 now of The Flash and the conversation in Hollywood is still going on about diversity and representation. And we did it right from episode 1 of Season 1 of The Flash.

“So I was honored to be a part of that movement so early on and I take that responsibility seriously and I think there should be more. There should be a lot more diverse characters. People of different sexual orientations, different cultural backgrounds, different abilities in mainstream TV. I’m just glad to be part of that conversation of that movement”.

Once The Flash started airing, fans tracked Patrick down online and he was awed by their responses. “I always knew it was important. I always knew that just the existence of Captain Singh was making an impact. And then when the episodes started to air and people started to find me on social media, I would get every now and then these direct messages from kids, and I get moods when I think about this, but like kids in the Midwest or kids in the Deep South sharing with me their stories of discrimination and saying ‘I live in this really small town and I don’t feel the same as everyone else but I could never tell anybody. So seeing Captain Singh, you know the strong character in my favorite show, makes me feel that I’m normal. Makes me feel that I’m okay’ and I’m like, that is so real to me.”

“Some kid entrenched in this community that doesn’t accept him or her can see themselves represented in Captain Singh either because of being a visible minority or because of his sexual orientation and feeling like they identify. That could have untold effect in that child’s life. That is real, more real to me than any contract or any ratings or any other kind of success. That is affecting somebody’s life that may not have found that they feel okay in their identity until you know maybe I can contribute to it. So it’s one of the highlights of my career, honestly being able to be part of people’s experience that way”, Patrick said.

Quote

When Patrick looked into the Captain Singh character, he immediately noticed his resemblance. “I got the e-mail I kind of researched the character and I got excited right away because my daughter was actually sitting next to me when I was Googling Captain David Singh of The Flash. And we started scrolling through these images and my daughter who was probably six or seven at the time said ‘Daddy is that you, but how come your hair is too long’. So in scrolling through the images she recognized me in the character before I even had it. And so right from that moment I was like this is kind of perfect for me and I was super excited about it”, Patrick said.

“I was excited about the project and what the character stood for and who he was and how diverse he was. ...

Quote

I asked Patrick what his favorite Captain Singh moments were. “The first one that jumps to mind is the episode where they reveal that Captain Singh is openly gay and the way we just kind of nonchalantly did it. I think I was putting mayo on a burger or something, and the line is something totally offhanded like ‘yeah when my husband makes me eat healthy at home, so here’s the only place I can eat what I want’. Just how normal we made that moment. And people lost their minds on social media or just people in general would be like ‘oh my god I love how you guys drop that. You didn’t make a big scandalous ordeal out of it’ like real life. It’s the real world man. Not everything stops when you’ve got to discuss your diversity. It’s just that in life. That’s who we are and everybody around us has to accept that. You don’t have to apologize for being quote ‘different’ than the status quo. You just are. I love that about Singh man he doesn’t give a s**t what people think. He’s a self actualized man doing what he has to do. He’s got a job to do, take your job seriously, he’s successful. He’s a powerful figure and he makes no apologies for anybody. So that was one of my highlights”, Patrick told me.

[Trini]

Now if the show would just acknowledge that Capt. Singh is Indian-American, as well as gay, that would be great.

[phoenics]

14 minutes ago, Trini said:

Now if the show would just acknowledge that Capt. Singh is Indian-American, as well as gay, that would be great.

IKR?  This show loves to tout "diversity" while treating characters as though they are all white.

[Trini]

A few of Candice's comments from the Shethority panel this past weekend:

Quote

Many of the actresses also said there needs to be more done about female representation that go beyond simply “checking a box” for hiring women or women of color. Ashe told Variety when she got cast, the showrunners also hired a Muslim American writer to help get across the complexity of her character. Additionally, Patton said she wants diversity to reverberate across every department of a show.

“It’s not enough to make a black woman a female lead of your show, you then have to write for that character, you have to make sure there are hair and makeup artists who know how to do black hair and makeup. You have to have producers who understand the black experience in Hollywood,” Patton said during the panel. 

Quote

However, the women have all acknowledged positive changes since #MeToo and Time’s Up erupted in the last year. A number of the producers said there has been more sensitivity in the writers’ room since these movements, and they are more cautious to ask writers privately if a storyline is offensive.

Similarly, Patton said the conversations that have happened about gender equality recently have made it easier to talk openly about previously taboo topics. “I feel less afraid every day. I think the way the tide is turned, I’m less afraid to get on set and have conversations about whatever — about the things that I need as a woman, or equal pay or whatever it is. I feel less afraid because I know there are other women and other men who get the shift that’s happening and will have my back.”

[Trini]

CW put up the Shethority panel on youtube: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3

Highlights with several quotes from Candice and Danielle:

 

Edited October 21, 2018 by Trini

[Trini]

For the love of cheese, it's been 5 seasons: get Candice a proper stylist!

[BeautifulFlower]

10 hours ago, Trini said:

For the love of cheese, it's been 5 seasons: get Candice a proper stylist!

For the show?

[Trini]

Yes, I meant for the show. It's almost criminal how limited Iris' hairstyles have been over 4+ seasons.

[Trini]

...What Has Changed in Hollywood Post-#MeToo

Quote

It’s been a year since the #MeToo movement began, and conversations around abuse and power in the entertainment industry are fundamentally different. But has anything actually improved in Hollywood? We asked a number of women to tell us how their experiences in the workplace have changed (or not) in the past year, from actors to cinematographers to writers and producers.

Quote

Candice Patton, actress (The Flash, The Game)

I definitely feel less scared, which is instantly empowering. I feel less scared to have conversations about story lines. I feel less scared to have conversations about my pay. I feel less scared to have conversations about bullying or intimidation, or whatever it is. Because I know there is a community of women, and men, who are no longer willing to let these things slide. Just having that support system is a game-changer. It’s changed everything for so many women and men to say, “You know what, I’m going to speak my truth.”

The pay thing, for me, was one of those things where it wasn’t as big of a fight as I was expecting it to be. Just given the times and where we are, I think everyone’s just like, “All right, this is what you deserve, and we’re not going to fight you on that.” That’s something I’m really appreciative of. And I can’t really say if that was the movement, or not, that encouraged that. But I have a suspicion it helped.

[BaggythePanther]

On 10/21/2018 at 7:09 PM, Trini said:

Yes, I meant for the show. It's almost criminal how limited Iris' hairstyles have been over 4+ seasons.

Oh good, I thought I was the only one bothered by this. Also, CP might have just resorted to taking things into her own hands.

[phoenics]

On 10/20/2018 at 11:31 PM, Trini said:

For the love of cheese, it's been 5 seasons: get Candice a proper stylist!

At this point, with THREE black women on the show now, the stylist shouldn't be a generalist.  The stylist should be focused on black hair and styles - and a generalist with other hair types (caucasian, etc).  But I guarantee that's not what is happening.  The show has 3 black women, but I bet it's still behaving as though all of the actresses are white with how they staff their stylists.  They need to sit at Ava DuVernay's knee.