Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[Proteus]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I don't know what you are referring to here, but there have always been rumors about BTS drama that suggested that it was more than people "not getting along." Kreisberg's firing caused more info to come out, confirming that there are issues about race and gender that impacted Candice more than anyone else in the cast. 

What info came out?

[SimoneS]

12 hours ago, Proteus said:

What info came out?

Now I regret responding to the post. I don't want to get into the details of the social media chatter and gossip on this topic. I'll just say that Kreisberg's reported skeevy behavior wasn't confined to the writers' room and that it had negative impact on Candice and at least one other actress in the Arrowverse shows that he was involved in.

Edited February 23, 2019 by SimoneS

[BeautifulFlower]

The only thing I heard involving an actress was that he had a few audition with their shirts off.

With Candice, many people speculated that he may have sexually harassed her because of the writing surrounding her character on the show. Also, she said she would talk on the matter, but she never did.

The Kreisberg situation definitely changed things bts

[BeautifulFlower]

16 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I think it's old news now that Candice and Danielle are downright indifferent to each other. What bothers me is that it appears to have affected Candice's interactions with the rest of the cast too.

How so? We don't have any idea what goes on bts?

If we go by social media, Candice seems to get along with everyone except for DP. Her issues with DP hasn't affected any of her relationships with the other cast.

Honestly, the Flash cast aren't that close. They get along on set and are friendly with each other. They'll like a few of each other's posts and stuff, but that's it. After filming, they go on about their day. Its very rare to see them hanging with each other off set. They're coworkers.

[SimoneS]

On 2/22/2019 at 5:42 PM, ruby24 said:

I think it's old news now that Candice and Danielle are downright indifferent to each other. What bothers me is that it appears to have affected Candice's interactions with the rest of the cast too.

Are you referring to the false story that the Snowbarry fans were spreading that Candice was the only main cast member who didn't attend Grant's wedding? This wasn't true. Candice did attend Grant's wedding. 

[BeautifulFlower]

13 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Are you referring to the false story that the Snowbarry fans were spreading that Candice was the only main cast member who didn't attend Grant's wedding? This wasn't true. Candice did attend Grant's wedding. 

Lol, speaking of that person. They deleted their twitter after Grant liked a post from Candice. I guess they couldn't handle coming into reality that Grant doesn't hate candice.

But ugh, I hated those people demanding show proof. Like, wow. Why should Candice show proof?

[SimoneS]

17 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

But ugh, I hated those people demanding show proof. Like, wow. Why should Candice show proof?

Did people actually demand that Candice "show proof" that she attended Grant's wedding? You know if she posted a photo, they would have screamed that it was photoshopped! These people are lunatics who have long lost touch with reality.

Edited February 24, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Lol, speaking of that person. They deleted their twitter after Grant liked a post from Candice. I guess they couldn't handle coming into reality that Grant doesn't hate candice.

But ugh, I hated those people demanding show proof. Like, wow. Why should Candice show proof?

Are you serious about her deleting her Twitter account just because she couldn't deal with the reality that GG likes Candice?! Wow! That's insane. 

[BeautifulFlower]

15 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Did people actually demand that Candice "show proof" that she attended Grant's wedding? You know if she posted a photo, they would have screamed that it was photoshopped! These people are lunatics who have long lost tough with reality.

Yep. There were some who called Candice a liar since there was no photos or video proof of her presence.

[BeautifulFlower]

13 hours ago, adora721 said:

Are you serious about her deleting her Twitter account just because she couldn't deal with the reality that GG likes Candice?! Wow! That's insane. 

Yes. It was the person who kept spreading lies about Grant hating candice because he doesn't like or comment on her posts. The weirdo who was defining relationships through social media

[DearEvette]

14 hours ago, adora721 said:

Are you serious about her deleting her Twitter account just because she couldn't deal with the reality that GG likes Candice?! Wow! That's insane. 

If that is the same person to whom Candice responded with the very pithy 'I was there ashy.' (which cracked me the hell up!!) then it makes sense.  The person had about 12 followers and their entire account was nothing but claiming how much Grant hated Candace.  That is literally ALL they posted, the had not other twitter life or interest.  So the person wasn't well adjusted in the first place.

[SimoneS]

That is the thing about social media, it gives a huge microphone to spew ugliness and hate, but often when you look closer it is just one or two people yelling loudly. 

[adora721]

3 hours ago, DearEvette said:

If that is the same person to whom Candice responded with the very pithy 'I was there ashy.' (which cracked me the hell up!!) then it makes sense.  The person had about 12 followers and their entire account was nothing but claiming how much Grant hated Candace.  That is literally ALL they posted, the had not other twitter life or interest.  So the person wasn't well adjusted in the first place.

Well, don't judge someone too harshly for being single-minded and having  only a few followers. 😊

I specifically joined Twitter to let WB and the CW (and others) know about the incompetence and possible bias of whoever runs the @CW_TheFlash account; that's 99% of what I tweet about just to keep them aware that they can't disrespect Candice, their female lead, by excluding her like they did for the 100th episode.

I only have like 3 followers, but that's not my goal anyway. My goal is to keep the pressure on that account to support everyone on the show and stop excluding CP from major milestones. It's my small way of supporting CP even if noone follows me.

ETA: What continues to sting is that whoever runs that account knew they nor Twiter could not undo CP's exclusion or DP's inclusion twice, which made it look like DP was the female lead. So, even if CW fires him/her, they achieved their goal. 😡

Edited February 24, 2019 by adora721

[SimoneS]

10 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Well, don't judge someone too harshly for being single-minded and having  only a few followers. 😊

I specifically joined Twitter to let WB and the CW (and others) know about the incompetence and possible bias of whoever runs the @CW_TheFlash account; that's 99% of what I tweet about just to keep them aware that they can't disrespect Candice, their female lead, by excluding her like they did for the 100th episode.

I only have like 3 followers, but that's not my goal anyway. My goal is to keep the pressure on that account to support everyone on the show and stop excluding CP from major milestones. It's my small way of supporting CP even if noone follows me.

ETA: What continues to sting is that whoever runs that account knew they nor Twiter could not undo CP's exclusion or DP's inclusion twice, which made it look like DP was the female lead. So, even if CW fires him/her, they achieved their goal. 😡

Be sure to include Geoff Johns, Jim Lee, and Dan DiDio in your tweets.

[SimoneS]

With Kreisberg's toxicity and now all the rumors swirling around about cast departures, I have been thinking about Candice's response to hitting the 100th episode, "I survived, I'll say that much, I survived." I can only imagine how difficult it has been for Candice behind the scenes along with the attacks from racist fans on social media and online. I really hope that the work environment on the show has improved for her substantially. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

12 hours ago, SimoneS said:

With Kreisberg's toxicity and now all the rumors swirling around about cast departures, I have been thinking about Candice's response to hitting the 100th episode, "I survived, I'll say that much, I survived." I can only imagine how difficult it has been for Candice behind the scenes along with the attacks from racist fans on social media and online. I really hope that the work environment on the show has improved for her substantially. 

If the rumors are true about DP leaving (I know it's only speculative), I wonder if things will improve for Candice with regards to the OTF/SB fandom, or will it just get worse as they send more vitriol and hate towards CP. I'm certain some will blame DP's departure (again, if true) on CP somehow.

I think Carlos leaving and DP remaining (if true) would remove a buffer between the two women that was probably helpful BTS and for the show. If Cisco, Caitlin's BFF, is gone, it only shines a brighter light on the lack of genuine friendship between Barry's wife and the only other woman who's been there since S1. Of course, if Ralph is now being positioned to take Cisco's place as Cait's BFF, it may not change anything at all. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by adora721

[SimoneS]

13 minutes ago, adora721 said:

If the rumors are true about DP leaving (I know it's only speculative), I wonder if things will improve for Candice with regards to the OTF/SB fandom, or will it just get worse as they send more vitriol and hate towards CP. I'm certain some will blame DP's departure (again, if true) on CP somehow.

I don't think that DP is leaving, but if she did, no doubt her fans would target Candice even more viciously, but can't imagine that Candice would mind the trade off.

13 minutes ago, adora721 said:

I think Carlos leaving and DP remaining (if true) would remove a buffer between the two women that was probably helpful BTS and for the show. If Cisco, Caitlin's BFF, is gone, it only shines a brighter light on the lack of genuine friendship between Barry's wife and the only other woman who's been there since S1. Of course, if Ralph is now being positioned to take Cisco's place as Cait's BFF, it may not change anything at all. 

I read a blind item from TV Line which made me think that Carlos really is leaving. It said that the actor told the show that he or she is leaving to give them enough time to give the character an exit. Carlos' impending departure would explain the decision to up Hartley to a regular. But as you pointed out the show already has Ralph taking over the role as Caitlin/Killer Frost's new bestie which should give cover to the nonexistent friendship between her and Iris. Of course, this leaves the team without a mechanical engineer, but they can always make the next iteration of Wells one.

Edited March 10, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

But as you pointed out the show already has Ralph taking over the role as Caitlin/Killer Frost's new bestie which should give cover to the nonexistent friendship between her and Iris.

How long can that cover last if Todd's words are true about

Spoiler

Sue Dearbon coming soon or in S6 as Ralph's love interest? Unless they plan to make Sue friendly with Caitlin as well. The optics of that won't be great; that is, showing Caitlin super friends with the new White woman on the show, but frosty to the Black woman who's Barry's wife and been on the show since S1. Then there's the awkwardness of Frosty as the fourth wheel in the Sue/Ralph romance.

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I read a blind item from TV Line which made me think that Carlos really is leaving. 

I've read a similar item from elsewhere pointing to DP's departure. Only 7 or so more episodes to know which ones are accurate.

[Trini]

It might seem like a small thing to some, but a significant part of an actor's role is his/her image, so it matters.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

How long can that cover last if Todd's words are true about

Spoiler

Sue Dearbon coming soon or in S6 as Ralph's love interest? Unless they plan to make Sue friendly with Caitlin as well. The optics of that won't be great; that is, showing Caitlin super friends with the new White woman on the show, but frosty to the Black woman who's Barry's wife and been on the show since S1. Then there's the awkwardness of Frosty as the fourth wheel in the Sue/Ralph romance.

Honestly, I don't think that the audience will notice that

Spoiler

Iris has no friendship scenes with Caitlin even after Sue shows up.

I don't even notice. It was only when Iris asked Caitlin to be her maid of honor that I wondered if Iris didn't have any real women friends. Iris has Barry and Joe which puts her in the center of the show. Caitlin is mostly on the sideline even though they occasionally feature her Killer Frost story. 

[SimoneS]

Candice with Nicole Maines and Vincent Rodriguez, III, at SXSW today.

Edited March 10, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

33 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Honestly, I don't think that the audience will notice that Iris has no friendship scenes with Caitlin even after Sue shows up

Well, I think the audience does notice and the media notices as evidenced by just a sample of media content about female friendships in the Arrowverse: 

• Cosmopolitan
• The Colossal Failure of Female Relationships in DCTV
• Link to a forum post about various times CP or DP was asked about Iris/Caitlin friendship

The audience and media attention are why "Girl's Night Out" in s4 directly confronted the Iris/Caitlin dynamic of only being "work friends", plus providing Iris w/a maid of honor from the team. Ladies w/ Gumption even interviewed DP and asked about Caitlin/Iris' friendship last summer at SDCC 2018. Tumblr has posts about their minimal interaction this season, too.

The audience and media attention are also why "Arrow" has Felicity and E2 Laurel now being friends and why E2 Laurel apologized to Dinah for killing her boyfriend. 

So, people do notice.

[SimoneS]

6 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Well, I think the audience does notice and the media notices as evidenced by just a sample of media content about female friendships in the Arrowverse: 

• Cosmopolitan
• The Colossal Failure of Female Relationships in DCTV
• Link to a forum post about various times CP or DP was asked about Iris/Caitlin friendship

The audience and media attention are why "Girl's Night Out" in s4 directly confronted the Iris/Caitlin dynamic of only being "work friends", plus providing Iris w/a maid of honor from the team. Ladies w/ Gumption even interviewed DP and asked about Caitlin/Iris' friendship last summer at SDCC 2018. Tumblr has posts about their minimal interaction this season, too.

The audience and media attention are also why "Arrow" has Felicity and E2 Laurel now being friends and why E2 Laurel apologized to Dinah for killing her boyfriend. 

So, people do notice.

We are going to have to agree to disagree about the audience noticing. The relationships on the show are so compartmentalized that it now feels like the norm. Maybe it is because I watch so many shows where the women characters have no women friends or barely interact with other women unless plot dictated. For example, on The Walking Dead, the women characters rarely have scenes together much less time to develop a friendship on screen. Same with Game of Thrones, other than Daenerys and Missandei, the women characters are usually at war with each other.  However, I can buy that the media notices because it knows that there is behind the scenes drama.

Edited March 10, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

An editorial featuring Candice's comments at SXSW: 'Candice Patton Keeps It 100 About Diversity and Representation at SXSW'

[adora721]

Found this review article late, but still worth a read.

[phoenics]

Did you guys know that Todd Helbing has been replaced by a black male EP as showrunner?

Eric Wallace is taking over.

https://www.newsarama.com/44274-the-flash-gets-new-showrunner-for-season-six.html

I hope what people speculated before isn't true - that he's the reason behind downplaying Iris/Barry - I have to admit, while a lot of fans were happy and excited about this, I was nervous.  Having black male writers doesn't always translate to better stories and protection for black women characters.  Sometimes, you get even more deification of white women characters and ugliness for the black women characters.  Look at Sleepy Hollow.  In the final season with Abby, when fans complained about racist tropes, the black male writer on the show vociferously defended the racist writing.

So I dunno.  The only good thing going for Eric Wallace is that some of his episodes have been pretty great for Iris/Barry.

[SimoneS]

8 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Did you guys know that Todd Helbing has been replaced by a black male EP as showrunner? 

Yes, we talked about it on the Media thread and maybe the Spoiler thread also. I am hopeful, but wary at the same time.

[adora721]

9 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Did you guys know that Todd Helbing has been replaced by a black male EP as showrunner?

Eric Wallace is taking over.

Yes; we heard about it a week or so ago. Eric also worked on "Eureka", which had a prominent Black female in an IR with a White male lead. I really enjoyed "Eureka", so I'm hopeful for Eric's influence on Iris and WA.

11 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Having black male writers doesn't always translate to better stories and protection for black women characters.  Sometimes, you get even more deification of white women characters and ugliness for the black women characters. 

Totally agree on this possibility. Some Black men are also adamantly against Black women dating or marrying White men or non-Black men, even though they support Black men dating out. So, let's hope Eric isn't one of those.

[BeautifulFlower]

54 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Did you guys know that Todd Helbing has been replaced by a black male EP as showrunner?

Eric Wallace is taking over.

https://www.newsarama.com/44274-the-flash-gets-new-showrunner-for-season-six.html

I hope what people speculated before isn't true - that he's the reason behind downplaying Iris/Barry - I have to admit, while a lot of fans were happy and excited about this, I was nervous.  Having black male writers doesn't always translate to better stories and protection for black women characters.  Sometimes, you get even more deification of white women characters and ugliness for the black women characters.  Look at Sleepy Hollow.  In the final season with Abby, when fans complained about racist tropes, the black male writer on the show vociferously defended the racist writing.

So I dunno.  The only good thing going for Eric Wallace is that some of his episodes have been pretty great for Iris/Barry.

He's not. Yes, Eric was upped to an EP for season 5. However, he was just that. Todd was showrunner and still had final say on writing.

[SimoneS]

5 hours ago, adora721 said:

Found this review article late, but still worth a read.

This was a long read, but I made it to the end. I don't watch the crossovers so while I knew from comments here that Iris wasn't in them, I didn't know that the other African American characters weren't in the recent ones either, but I am not surprised. Bertlanti has never been interested in ethnic diversity besides tokenism which has made CBS/CW the perfect network for him. The recent diversity in programming on these networks has been due to relentless societal pressure over the last two years, actually since the #OscarsSoWhite campaign hit the tv networks.

I brought the post below of mine from the "Race & Ethnicity on TV" thread because it is related to this topic. I think that the blame for the problems that Candice and the other characters of color have experienced on the Berlanti produced DC properties lie squarely on DC. It has to approve the characters and stories on these shows. It easily could insist that Iris and other actors of color be included in the crossovers. While DC has no control over the CW's PR, it has its own social media and PR that could have promoted Candice over the last five years, especially with the money invested in the The Flash movie whenever production starts. This is why when fans say that they are targeting Berlanti and CW to protest Candice's treatment, I also say that it is DC that needs to be on full social media blast.

On 3/1/2019 at 4:38 PM, SimoneS said:

One thing that Iris in The Flash tv show (and movie), Lyta Zod in Krypton, Koriand'r in Titans, and now Black Canary in the Birds of Prey movie is that they are all DC properties. DC made the decision to cast Black women in these prominent roles. IMO, DC is the entity that has not stepped up to protect these women, their employees, from racist and often misogynistic online abuse and bullying and it has the resources to do so. DC engages in "diversity" without social responsibility. They easily could tell these racist trolls to fuck off, but it chooses to stay silent so it can keep on selling comic books, movies, tv shows, etc. to these losers. Don't forget DC is where a lot those sexual predators and reputed racists thrived for years before the #MeToo Movement forced it to take action. It hasn't covered itself in glory when to comes to the treatment of women regardless of their ethnicity.

Edited March 22, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

Also, the audio for the SXSW panel that Candice participated in is available here: https://schedule.sxsw.com/2019/events/PP102710

Finished listening to the whole panel, and it's worth a listen not just for Candice's comments, but also everyone else's about diversity issues in front of and behind the camera.

[Starry]

17 hours ago, phoenics said:

Did you guys know that Todd Helbing has been replaced by a black male EP as showrunner?

Eric Wallace is taking over.

https://www.newsarama.com/44274-the-flash-gets-new-showrunner-for-season-six.html

I hope what people speculated before isn't true - that he's the reason behind downplaying Iris/Barry - I have to admit, while a lot of fans were happy and excited about this, I was nervous.  Having black male writers doesn't always translate to better stories and protection for black women characters. 

As the sole showrunner for s5, I think Todd Helbing is the reason why the Barry/Iris relationship has been downplayed so much.

I am happy about the change in showrunners because IMO it can't get worse than this. Barry and Iris are not divorcing so the worst thing that can happen is them not sharing enough screen time, which seems to be the new normal for s5. They also have to put scenes of Iris reporting here and there because CCC and that headline are relevant to their precious crossover.

I know that Eric Wallace chose Iris as his favorite character to write for and I have heard positive things about him when it comes to black women representation. On the flip side, he retweeted one of the most vicious and racist SB accounts. I don't expect him to know everything about that particular tweeter's history but it annoyed me nonetheless.

[BeautifulFlower]

12 hours ago, Trini said:

Finished listening to the whole panel, and it's worth a listen not just for Candice's comments, but also everyone else's about diversity issues in front of and behind the camera.

Her statement here

Quote

"I don't want to be labeled 'a diva' because I have to say to production, 'I need someone who can do black hair/black makeup.' Not everyone knows how to paint me in a way that makes me feel good when I'm on camera. And me asking for that is not me being difficult"

I feel like someone called her this bts. If they did, screw them. Anyway, I agree with Candice so much. This is what tv shows that are predominately white need to realize. If you're going to have a black actor/actress on the show, then you need the proper stylists for them. You cannot have someone who doesn't understand that a black woman's hair is different from a white woman. You cannot have someone who doesn't know the correct foundation to put on a black woman's skin. You just can't.

Again, if someone did call her this, seriously screw them. If Candice isn't comfortable with her styling for the show, it's up to you to make her feel comfortable.

[Brinny]

3 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Her statement here

I feel like someone called her this bts. If they did, screw them. Anyway, I agree with Candice so much. This is what tv shows that are predominately white need to realize. If you're going to have a black actor/actress on the show, then you need the proper stylists for them. You cannot have someone who doesn't understand that a black woman's hair is different from a white woman. You cannot have someone who doesn't know the correct foundation to put on a black woman's skin. You just can't.

Again, if someone did call her this, seriously screw them. If Candice isn't comfortable with her styling for the show, it's up to you to make her feel comfortable.

What I don’t fully understand is, from everything I know, if you specialize in black hair and have gone to cosmetology school, then you know how to do “white” hair since that’s primarily what is taught and, ergo, needed to obtain a license. Soooo, if your female lead is black, why wouldn’t you hire a black hairstylist?* It’s not as if they’d be incapable of doing the rest of the casts’ hair, while the inverse is rarely true. Seems like a no brainer.

I am glad that the writer’s room is getting more diverse though. I don’t know if anyone here listens to the podcast KeepIt, but they (the hosts all have at some point or currently do write for TV) had a recent episode where they talk about how writer’s rooms are starting to diversify, but that it takes a long time and change is slow because old white men are still in charge. Which is why having minority show runners (black, Asian, women, etc.) ends up being so important since they in turn hire other minorities. (KeepIt is available on Spotify - everyone should check it out!)

*this is somewhat rhetorical. Like. I get it, but I don’t get it. You know?

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Brinny said:

What I don’t fully understand is, from everything I know, if you specialize in black hair and have gone to cosmetology school, then you know how to do “white” hair since that’s primarily what is taught and, ergo, needed to obtain a license. Soooo, if your female lead is black, why wouldn’t you hire a black hairstylist?* It’s not as if they’d be incapable of doing the rest of the casts’ hair, while the inverse is rarely true. Seems like a no brainer.

Don't quote me, because I heard this secondhand; but one issue is that sometimes studios have to hire from the hair stylists union, and minorities getting into the union is an issue itself.

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, Brinny said:

What I don’t fully understand is, from everything I know, if you specialize in black hair and have gone to cosmetology school, then you know how to do “white” hair since that’s primarily what is taught and, ergo, needed to obtain a license. Soooo, if your female lead is black, why wouldn’t you hire a black hairstylist?* It’s not as if they’d be incapable of doing the rest of the casts’ hair, while the inverse is rarely true. Seems like a no brainer.

I agree but from what I heard there is a union for hairstylists who work in the entertainment industry. If you are not in the union networks/shows won't use you. The problem is that it's very hard for black hairstylists to get into that union. So even if the shows/networks wants to hair a black hairstylist for their lead it might be hard for them to find one within the union.

Edited March 22, 2019 by SevenStars

[Brinny]

4 minutes ago, Trini said:

Don't quote me, because I heard this secondhand; but one issue is that sometimes studios have to hire from the hair stylists union, and minorities getting into the union is an issue itself.

2 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

I agree but from what I heard there is a union for hairstylists who work in the entertainment industry. If you are not in the union networks/shows won't use you. The problem is that it's very hard for black hairstylists to get into that union. So even if the shows/networks wants to hair a black hairstylist for their lead it might be hard for them to find one within the union.

Well there you go. I mean that’s awful, but it’s an answer I guess. 

[HunterHunted]

On 3/22/2019 at 12:22 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

I feel like someone called her this bts. If they did, screw them. Anyway, I agree with Candice so much. This is what tv shows that are predominately white need to realize. If you're going to have a black actor/actress on the show, then you need the proper stylists for them. You cannot have someone who doesn't understand that a black woman's hair is different from a white woman. You cannot have someone who doesn't know the correct foundation to put on a black woman's skin. You just can't.

Again, if someone did call her this, seriously screw them. If Candice isn't comfortable with her styling for the show, it's up to you to make her feel comfortable.

I know that Retta and Yvette Nicole have both talked about having to hire their own hair and makeup people, like out of their own pockets.

[BeautifulFlower]

So Candice wants a stylist who can do black people here. It's obvious her request fail on death ears. It's no surprise as I'm sure she revealed a long time ago that she tried to have Iris wear her natural curls.

With that said, I hate how they have these stylists giving white women corn rows. 

[SimoneS]

7 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

With that said, I hate how they have these stylists giving white women corn rows. 

I noticed that. Guess, to the show putting corn rows on Grace makes her badass. If this is what we are getting from Eric Wallace next season, yikes!

[BeautifulFlower]

50 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I noticed that. Guess, to the show putting corn rows on Grace makes her badass. If this is what we are getting from Eric Wallace next season, yikes!

We have to wait and see. Eric won't take the reigns until next season. Todd is still in charge.

It might be different. Candice will now have her producer who could have her back on this.

[Trini]

3 minutes of the SXSW panel:

Maybe they'll put up a few more clips later?

[Trini]

Another SXSW panel clip:

[Trini]

I guess they're just going to keep doling out clips instead of the whole panel.

Next SXSW clip (includes Candice's comments on hairstylists/makeup):

[Trini]

Mentioning this here since he mentions Candice and 'fan' hate; Mehcad Brooks (Supergirl) comments on racist bullying toward actors:

[BeautifulFlower]

12 hours ago, Trini said:

Mentioning this here since he mentions Candice and 'fan' hate; Mehcad Brooks (Supergirl) comments on racist bullying toward actors:

When a lot of people praised this post for mostly doing what the flash cast couldn't, that tells you something. 

It's been 5 years and no one has done what Mehacad did or Minka Kelly (she made post defending Anna).

But should we surprised? No. After all, the producers told Candice to stay off social media because they knew the racism was coming and proceeded to do nothing in her defense.

[SimoneS]

The racist bullying that Candace and Anna have been subjected to online is ugly as hell. I have a lot of respect for Minka Kelly, speaking up for Anna publicly.

Edited April 11, 2019 by SimoneS

[phoenics]

From the Godspeed episode thread:

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

But what I don't get is if as you pointed out, that Barry raises his voice when he's upset to EVERYONE and now to Iris, how is this racially problematic? 

Just cause Barry lost his chill and is lashing out during an unprecedented situation doesn't mean that he's stopped loving Iris or is now being somehow abusive to her. And again, since it's established that him raising his voice when he is upset is in character, the only difference is it now ALSO was in this one incident extended to include his wife. While that may be new, it's also new to him to feel like he needed to cut his future daughter out of his life because she was taking advice from his mortal enemy.  This is uncharted territory.  And clearly Iris and the people around Barry understood he wasn't yelling to be mean to Iris or anyone around him but because he was overwrought and excitable.  

No one was letting Barry be chronically abusive to Iris.  Really don't see how any of this has anything to do with race.  

It's an escalation of a pattern with characters yelling at Iris and her chronically never being allowed to assert herself back.  It happened last season with Harry, Ralph AND Caitlin and there was no defense of Iris - not even from herself.  Now Barry?  That one is REALLY problematic - because that's not a coworker. That's her husband.

Hear me:  I'm not saying that folks can't yell at Iris.  What I'm saying is that this show has a HORRIBLE pattern of characters doing that to her, with Iris just sitting there and taking it.  It's a VERY common racial trope - because writers worry that if they let the black woman stand up for herself, the racists will throw the ABW stereotype at her.  It's part of making the black woman look "nice" to overcome the audience's pre-perception that black women are angry.  CP even spoke about this in an interview - so I think she realizes that yes - it is about race.  Black women catch it 1000 worse than white women characters on this issue and often it leads to them being silenced like this and yelling behavior at them normalized.

Because Barry has never raised his voice to Iris before - this illustrates a general degradation of how everyone on this show screams at Iris and disrespects her, and she's 1) never allowed to defend herself and 2) at least in the past, Barry wasn't one of them yelling at her, with her never being able to defend herself.  It's part of a pattern of black women characters being expected to simply sit and take it and never defend themselves or assert boundaries.  It's part of the erasure of a black woman's agency for this to repeatedly happen and for toxic behavior toward that black woman to be normalized.  

From that to the smug bitch looks Caitlin and Danielle exchanged when Nora shaded Iris to Iris being dragged by Spyn (doesn't matter if the other character doing it is also a black woman) - and Iris wasn't allowed to defend herself - its' part of a pattern.

I get it - none of you people think this is bad.  That's fine.  But I see the pattern and  I'm just SO sick and tired of black women characters put into this no-win situation - say something - even calmly - and get your head bitten off.  Assert boundaries and you're bashed by fandom for being an angry black woman.

ETA:  I don't know if you're a black woman or not, but I would say that EVERY black woman I know has felt the unyielding pressure of moments where someone gets angry at us for whatever reason (justified or unjustified) and we feel forced to not respond in kind, defend ourselves or assert boundaries because we're afraid that we will get labeled as the ABW.  This happened to me in a work setting more than once and even though I was the one who remained calm and never raised my voice - the person doing it to me (incidentally a white woman who probably thinks of herself as a feminist) somehow turned it around on me to my VP where I was the instigator.  The ONLY thing that saved me was that she didn't realize my lab tech was within earshot and heard the whole thing.  Before that - I was literally under the bus and screwed.  And that's not the first time I've faced that - so much so that in my current role, I have worked so hard to not react that my coworkers sometimes ask me to defend myself more.  LOL.  It's just a no-win situation and I hate seeing it happen to Iris.  

Representation matters - but if you are going to just repeat harmful tropes that REAL people experience on the daily and reinforce those tropes in your writing - then your "representation" is harmful.  There are ACTUAL studies showing the harmful effects this kind of repression has on black women.  This stuff has real world effects.

So finally - Barry yelling at Iris by itself isn't necessarily problematic racially - it's still bad - but it's not problematic racially.  Taken as a whole with how Iris is treated AND how she's not given a voice to defend herself or assert boundaries - THAT is the racially problematic part.

[phoenics]

One thing I really hope the new showrunner thinks about is de-centering the narrative around Star Labs and finding a new way to think about telling these stories. 

My hypothesis (and others have touched on this) is that not only was AJK trying to minimize WestAllen through sabotaging their portrayal in the writing, but I also think the conscious decision to use the "Star Labs as the center of the universe" was a strategy to minimize CP's status as Lead Actress for the show and elevate DP as the "Leading Lady in Star Labs".  DP even said as much in an interview.  Since everything was basically centered around Star Labs anyway, that had EXACTLY the effect AJK wanted - before the show even began.

Think about it.  DP was cast early on - as was Cisco.  But the Lead Actress spot was always going to go to whoever played Iris West --> that was probably a DC Comics mandate.  It's clear AJK and DP had other plans but couldn't just MAKE DP the lead.  They had to "prove" CP wasn't fit, which led to all of the hot messes and erasure attempts of CP AND centering everything around Star Labs.

But since AJK is gone now - why is that old model still here?  OTF fans love it because it marginalizes Iris (that was the original purpose of it, anyway, imo).  But not all fans are like that and the show is lagging and dying under the constraints of Team Flash and Star Labs being the center of everything.

Take last week's episode seeing Nora working as an actual CSI - out in the field, doing her thing.  Seeing CCPD and Central City again was a revelation.  Part of what led me to the above theory is that I wondered why they didn't take Joe's absence as more of an opportunity to show Barry & Iris teaming up together...  

I feel like the Helbing brothers just doubled down on Star Labs being the center of everything - they even got rid of the CCPN set, reinforcing that.

Jesse's back injury should have created an opportunity.  The writers could have shown Iris  teaming up with Barry who is investigating through CCPD.  Reporter/cop is the easiest thing in the world to write.  They did do that with the Ragdoll episode - but they really should have done that more.  In the comics, that's how Barry/Iris worked on a lot of stuff together.  It would have been a natural progression but this show seems to struggle with how to write that way - it struggles unless everyone is based in Star Labs.  If you aren't, you aren't relevant.

It's kinda damning - the show basically set itself up to have two systems:  1) folks in Star Labs creating a microcosm of the show that drives all the action and then 2) everyone else on the outside, even if they are a lead.

On Arrow - originally they were clearly going for a Batman/Alfred pairing with Oliver and Digg, but then EBR's Felicity showed up and had more chemistry with Oliver than KC's Laurel and TeamArrow was born.

Honestly I feel like AJK structured this show that way not only to copy Arrow not because he was trying to copy Team Arrow for Team Arrow's sake, but because he HOPED it would have the same effect of erasing CP's importance to the show (just like KC's Laurel's was erased) AND create the space for his friend (who never even auditioned) to take over as lead actress.

Team Flash and building EVERYTHING around Team Flash created an alternate cast structure of "leads" and "supporting" based on centering Star Labs in everything so that only those people in Star Labs were important to the narrative.  It's also why AJK didn't plan on CP finding out about Barry=Flash until sometime in S2 even though EVERYONE else knew - EVERYONE.  The count of who those people are was well over 20 before Iris found out. 

Team Flash was pushed and centered by AJK to force CP out.

And now, even though that framework has long outlived its usefulness and AJK is gone, it still persists, to the detriment of the show.  I'm not saying TF should go away - but it needs to evolve.

In tonight's ep, Nora asks the same horribly stupid question Barry asked "How fast do I need to go to run up the side of a building?" - when she's smart enough to know that for herself, given her education and advanced future knowledge.  The only reason it was there was to reinforce the TF dynamic that has crippled Barry Allen's growth on this show for the last 2 seasons.

Even the writers making Iris team leader because they couldn't figure out how to break out of the TF mold they trapped themselves in is damning.  This show needs a giant rework.  I hope Eric is up to the task.  

Edited April 19, 2019 by phoenics

[Trini]

19 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Team Flash was pushed and centered by AJK to force CP out.

Sounds farfetched to me. And the team thing was there to replicate the success of Arrow's formula. (And you can see how they did it again with Supergirl, who is even less likely to need a team.) Every show has it's supporting characters, but I think Berlanti & co. just like teams.

I do agree with you that the show needs to break out of the 'Team STAR Labs' formula; and show more of Barry/Joe as police officers and Iris as an investigative reporter. They have done some of that this season, with separating characters into different subplots, although CCPD is still underused.