Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[tofutan]

Quote

For that matter, it's something that Oliver Queen hasn't had for over a season, Mon-El never got.

Isn't that a different situation though since Mon-El officially, canonically doesn't have an place to live, he lives in the basement of the DEO. 

But yes, I also don't see the value of giving somebody a set just for status purposes. A set has to be chosen to ideally be multifunctional, that it can be used for a lot of scenes. That's why from a writer POV work sets often make more sense than home sets. And I agree that Iris would served more just by more storylines with the team rather than it mattering whether she has a set or not. There is plenty of examples of characters with way more screentime who don't have a home set. 

I wouldn't say that the show didn't promote Cat. She showed up in a lot of promo pictures for both episodes, when they writers gave an interview it was about her, she was featured in the promo and the sneak peak. The only thing they could have done more is give her her own poster. It seemed more like they generally didn't promote the finale much (compared to how heavily for example Duet was promoted). 

Within the context of the promotion they were doing, they promoted Cat a lot. The problem is more that they generally didn't do a lot of promotion. [since the topic was how much honor a character received]. Superman was also returning for the episode and he didn't get more promotion than Cat did. 

Maybe CW has money problems and that's why they aren't sending their actors out to do interviews or do magazine covers? Or they have somebody who is inept across all shows rather than them slighting Iris in particular. 

[I don't really follow ratings, how did the other CW finales do in the ratings?] 

Edited May 17, 2017 by tofutan

[Trini]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Well, no - but we didn't see where Barry was living before he moved in with Joe in episode 10 - where he stayed until this season. So, yeah, sure, Iris didn't get her own apartment - but neither did Barry.

(Sorry, gonna be That Guy -) We did see one scene in Barry's apartment in Season 1, episode 7. Agree with everything else!

[phoenics]

On 5/17/2017 at 0:57 AM, Trini said:

(Sorry, gonna be That Guy -) We did see one scene in Barry's apartment in Season 1, episode 7. Agree with everything else!

Agreed and none of this explains why both Patty and Caitlin got HOME sets before Iris got her own.  For an entire SEASON we didn't know where Iris lived.  That's fucking not okay and it's clearly because the show had no interest in showing Iris' interior life in S2, but they WERE interested in showing Patty's and Caitlin's.  We didn't need to see Caitlin's home in S1 - why did we see that?  For ship baiting that they dropped?  But when IRIS is finally moving on with Barry - we don't see where she lives.  Patty we got to see hers - mostly because Barry was there - but they could have just as easily had those same convos at Joe's house.  But nooooo - they wanted to give Patty a home set.

The ONLY reason Iris has a home right now that is seen is because of Barry.  God forbid they break up - she'll be homeless again.

[phoenics]

On 5/16/2017 at 11:08 PM, quarks said:

Plus, the goalposts for this conversation have shifted. The original point was that Flash spent more money on sets for Caitlin and Patty than they did for Iris. When I noted that wasn't true, the conversation has now shifted to "we've seen more of Caitlin and Patty at home than Iris." Which again isn't true. We have seen more of Iris at home than of any other Flash character than Joe and Barry, first, in the main home set with Joe until she moved in with Eddie in the first season (which is to say, nine episodes of Iris at home), and in the one scene where she was in Eddie's bedroom. This season, we've seen her at home in virtually every episode since she moved in with Barry. Did we see Iris in her own apartment? Well, no - but we didn't see where Barry was living before he moved in with Joe in episode 10 - where he stayed until this season. So, yeah, sure, Iris didn't get her own apartment - but neither did Barry.

For that matter, it's something that Oliver Queen hasn't had for over a season, Mon-El never got. Felicity, granted, did - for one season 3 episode.  In season 4, she moved in with Oliver to the Oliver/Thea stunt set built in season 3, where she inexplicably stayed post breakup - EBR has publicly questioned why Felicity is still there.

In fact, since Arrow's first season, only two characters have had a home set built for their specific use, meant to be used by only one character - Kara on Supergirl and Sara Lance in Arrow's second season. Kara's set is used as a gathering spot for most of the cast (and, apparently, as a place for Barry and Iris to sleep), and Sara Lance's set wasn't a home set - it was a stunt set built as a comics homage. Eventually, pretty much every Arrow character other than Laurel and Slade ended up traipsing through it until Lyla blew it up.  

So no, this does not seem to be something that Flash can do easily.

What could they do easily? Give Iris more of a POV and let her go out in the field. I get that in this episode, the idea was to ensure that Barry wouldn't know where she was, but that hardly excuses multiple earlier episodes where she could have joined Team Flash in the field, or done some investigating, or whatever. For that matter, in this episode, let her help Felicity and Cisco find the power whatever - she's a journalist.  Have her call sources to see if anyone has an idea of where something like that might be. That wouldn't have required a new set, just a shot of Iris on a computer or a cell phone. And let her take on more of a leadership role in Team Flash - Patton's got the presence to pull that off. (Frankly, she's a more credible leader than Gustin, but I can only deal with so many problems per post.) 

And mostly, stop wasting Candice Patton.

I wasn't equating them, just pointing out that this is another failure of the CW's promo department. 

But since you brought it up - the point of marketing isn't to give every character on the show equal treatment, or to ensure that the main romantic interest gets additional promotion. The point of marketing is to get people to watch the show. And here, I'd agree that the CW is failing with Iris - not because of her role in the show, but because the actress/character has a definite, loyal fanbase. Patton fills rooms at cons and gets long lines at autograph signings. Iris trended on Twitter tonight during a major political scandal. And on what I will be the first to admit is a mostly shallow note, Candice Patton is smoking hot. I say mostly shallow, because that sort of hotness helps bring in viewers. The CW's marketing absolutely should be taking advantage of all of this. They aren't. 

But Cat Grant isn't just. as you put it, a special guest star. She's a returning regular, Supergirl's hands down fan favorite last season, played by a well-known, recognizable, award-winning actress, someone who originally got viewers to tune into the show back when it was on CBS, and one of the biggest stars that the CW has ever had on its network.  This is the sort of thing networks usually at least try to promote the hell out of.  The CW didn't.  

What happens when you fail to massively promote the return of a fan favorite and a special appearance by one of the biggest stars your network has ever had?  (Looks at Supergirl's numbers this week.) Oh. That happens. 

So I'm sticking to my point here: the CW's promotion sucks. Yeah, there are other reasons for the decline in the numbers, but the promotion is definitely not helping, or doing its main job: getting viewers to tune in. 

It's not that the goalposts shifted, but that people clarified what they meant by sets.  As we said, it's more about the sets being used to illustrate a character's interior life.  CCPN didn't help much when it was several characters that were showcased - she shared that with others.  If you include CCPN as an "Iris" set, then Star Labs would be a "Caitlin" set, when it's not.  The point still is that the show invested in standalone sets for Caitlin and Patty that they didn't invest in for Iris, who is actually the leading female.  We never saw Patty's set again after she left - it was a WASTE of money.  Same thing with Caitlin's home - no one else has ever visited - it's a WASTE of money.

So if the argument is that they can't afford new sets, why WASTE them on characters like Caitlin and Patty when neither had others visit?  Caitlin in S1 with Barry halfway made sense - since it was ship baiting - but after that?  Ridiculous.  The whole shower scene showing us KF hair could have been done elsewhere - it didn't need to be that kind of scene - in fact it would have probably had more impact if it had happened at work when she was in the bathroom and noticed the white hairs and needed to hide them to go find scissors to snip them out.

But we got those sets to show interior lives for Patty and Caitlin... and not for Iris.

THAT'S what people are complaining about - not just "sets" without that context.

[Katsullivan]

On 5/19/2017 at 2:14 PM, phoenics said:

It's not that the goalposts shifted, but that people clarified what they meant by sets.  As we said, it's more about the sets being used to illustrate a character's interior life.  CCPN didn't help much when it was several characters that were showcased - she shared that with others.  If you include CCPN as an "Iris" set, then Star Labs would be a "Caitlin" set, when it's not.  The point still is that the show invested in standalone sets for Caitlin and Patty that they didn't invest in for Iris, who is actually the leading female.  We never saw Patty's set again after she left - it was a WASTE of money.  Same thing with Caitlin's home - no one else has ever visited - it's a WASTE of money.

So if the argument is that they can't afford new sets, why WASTE them on characters like Caitlin and Patty when neither had others visit?  Caitlin in S1 with Barry halfway made sense - since it was ship baiting - but after that?  Ridiculous.  The whole shower scene showing us KF hair could have been done elsewhere - it didn't need to be that kind of scene - in fact it would have probably had more impact if it had happened at work when she was in the bathroom and noticed the white hairs and needed to hide them to go find scissors to snip them out.

But we got those sets to show interior lives for Patty and Caitlin... and not for Iris.

THAT'S what people are complaining about - not just "sets" without that context.

Thanks for putting this into words. And it bears repeating that not providing the inner lives is a pattern when it comes to POCs and Black characters in general in the media. The Wests are atypical because they aren’t just a Black family – they are the White hero’s family. Joe and Barry work in the same building. Iris is his love interest, and he dated someone at her work. But when you look at it critically, when you take away the aspects of their lives that do not intersect with Barry’s, you get the same treatment.  There’s a reason why Joe/Iris & Joe/Wally interactions are so much less in quantity and quality than Joe/Barry. There’s a reason why Wally makes a stupid statement like “You trusted me and I let you down” to BARRY and not “Iris trusted me and I let my sister down”. There’s a reason why apart from Wally’s ignored question about ‘why would any version of Barry want to hurt Iris?’, no West – Joe, Wally or Iris herself – has reacted naturally to the realization that Savitar and Barry are the same person.  

It's more than just 'sets'. 

[phoenics]

6 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Thanks for putting this into words. And it bears repeating that not providing the inner lives is a pattern when it comes to POCs and Black characters in general in the media. The Wests are atypical because they aren’t just a Black family – they are the White hero’s family. Joe and Barry work in the same building. Iris is his love interest, and he dated someone at her work. But when you look at it critically, when you take away the aspects of their lives that do not intersect with Barry’s, you get the same treatment.  There’s a reason why Joe/Iris & Joe/Wally interactions are so much less in quantity and quality than Joe/Barry. There’s a reason why Wally makes a stupid statement like “You trusted me and I let you down” to BARRY and not “Iris trusted me and I let my sister down”. There’s a reason why apart from Wally’s ignored question about ‘why would any version of Barry want to hurt Iris?’, no West – Joe, Wally or Iris herself – has reacted naturally to the realization that Savitar and Barry are the same person.  

It's more than just 'sets'. 

So true.  

Honestly in my family, Barry would be on the run from my dad and brother at this point.  They'd be contemplating killing him, lol.  And no way would they just let this all slide and never even get angry that Barry creating flashpoint put Iris at risk in the first place.  They all know she wasn't marked for death in the original timeline - the fact that none of them - not even Iris has blown up at Barry in a fit of apoplectic fear and rage over what he's done is grating.  So Barry's black family is 100% silent about the fact that Barry caused this whole thing that put Iris' life at risk (and as of now, killed her).

Even MORE grating when you realize that the very white Caitlin Snow has been able to rail at Barry all season long due to him causing her to become KF in this timeline.

It's bullshit.

[Katsullivan]

15 hours ago, phoenics said:

So Barry's black family is 100% silent about the fact that Barry caused this whole thing that put Iris' life at risk (and as of now, killed her).

Even MORE grating when you realize that the very white Caitlin Snow has been able to rail at Barry all season long due to him causing her to become KF in this timeline.

The producers love Joe/Barry because it's a story about a Black man constantly validating his White son above his own Black children & it's been written that way from the start. From all the father/child scenes being focused on Barry, and practically none on Iris. To the story of the fricking watch that should have gone to Iris before Wally, and most certainly before the White cuckoo-in-the-nest and now to the fact that Barry basically murders Iris being swept under the rug.

Honestly, I don't even understand why the producers made Barry = Savitar if they weren't going to deal with the consequences of Barry = Savitar. 

[sarthaz]

In fairness to the producers (ugh -- I hate typing that), I don't think their character relationship incompetence is related to race.  No one on this show exists in any capacity beyond their direct relation to Barry.  If the Wests were white, I honestly don't think anything would be different.  I totally see your points about larger societal issues and the presentation of minorities on television; in this case, though, I think the writers just aren't very good at ... writing ... and they'd still suck at it if everyone on the show was white.  Just my opinion.

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, sarthaz said:

In fairness to the producers (ugh -- I hate typing that), I don't think their character relationship incompetence is related to race.  No one on this show exists in any capacity beyond their direct relation to Barry.  If the Wests were white, I honestly don't think anything would be different.  I totally see your points about larger societal issues and the presentation of minorities on television; in this case, though, I think the writers just aren't very good at ... writing ... and they'd still suck at it if everyone on the show was white.  Just my opinion.

I admit to being a White Male and I agree with the above.  The shitty writing some people are attributing to racism, is just shitty writing, IMHO.  One thing I'm grateful for is the show at least hasn't done a Very Special Episode about racism.  Yet, anyway.  I always hated those fucking things on other shows.  They'd bring in a Black character, have them be a victim of racism, have the Good White folks stand up for him and then ship him the fuck off the show.  Like, can't you bastards just bring in a person who happens to be Black as something other than just a way to show how super-duper-ooper-pooper correct and tolerant your White characters are?

Edited May 24, 2017 by johntfs

[phoenics]

On 5/23/2017 at 8:37 PM, johntfs said:

I admit to being a White Male and I agree with the above.  The shitty writing some people are attributing to racism, is just shitty writing, IMHO.  One thing I'm grateful for is the show at least hasn't done a Very Special Episode about racism.  Yet, anyway.  I always hated those fucking things on other shows.  They'd bring in a Black character, have them be a victim of racism, have the Good White folks stand up for him and then ship him the fuck off the show.  Like, can't you bastards just bring in a person who happens to be Black as something other than just a way to show how super-duper-ooper-pooper correct and tolerant your White characters are?

I actually wasn't saying it was racism, but the poor writing perpetuates racism, whether the writers mean it to or not.  The writers' ignorance about race makes the poor writing even worse because it repeats harmful stereotypes and normalizes them in the writing.  It doesn't matter if they are intentionally being racist - harmful stereotypes still leaked into the fabric of society - that's still bad.  It normalizes the status quo - which is that the white female can berate the lead and it's okay, but the black female can never express any hurt or pain over being targeted and even then finding out the bad guy is a future version of her fiance?  For goodness sakes - Get Out, Iris, lol.  It's no consolation to me that they didn't MEAN to let that happen.

And if the issue was REALLY bad writing, then Caitlin wouldn't be the ONE character allowed to rail against Barry so hard and receive NO blowback from the fandom, whilst Iris (or her fam) never ever blamed Barry for being Savitar's target but is called selfish by the fandom.  Even Cisco got roasted and his brother died.  Caitlin gets this ridiculous powers=evil nonsense to absolve her of any blame and then the writers wipe that out in the finale, but still - she's still fine.  The writers aren't necessarily responsible for the racist reactions of the fandom, but they shouldn't cave to them either.

And it's pretty clear the writers know about the racist backlash Iris/CP and even CV/Cisco have gotten in the past - which is why they have turned Iris into a "perfect" girlfriend who never does anything wrong - in an attempt to protect her.  My point is more that if Iris can't have agency and a full range of real emotions, then DP's Caitlin shouldn't be allowed that either.  But since the writers have allowed that, then they know of the racial issues involved.

Which means they COULD do better.

The writing ignoring those very real racial outcomes is an issue.  It's not enough to be "not racist", in this society where racist fandoms take any excuse to be hateful to the first black female lead a comic tv show has ever had, writers need to be "anti racist" and stamp that mess out by not adding to stereotypes that show the white female character having agency to rail at the hero, while the black female LEAD character isn't allowed to be fully human or have 100% human emotions.

I don't care if the writers think they are "non racist".  I'm saying it's not enough.  

BUT - I do want to give the writers props for one thing.  I don't think I have EVER in the history of tv, seen a white male character sacrifice his life for a black female character.  Has that happened anywhere else?  I tried to see if that happened on Scandal at all, but I still don't think we've seen a white male on that show literally take a bullet for Olivia Pope... but on this show, HR, DIED to save Iris West.  I have to give major props for that - as we've seen on The CW, Fox (looking at you now cancelled Sleepy Hollow) and other networks, that's apparently not a thing.

So for that, gotta give The Flash its props - although I'm not sure they meant to make history - but I'm just glad they didn't have Iris die for manpain (although I do feel like the threat of it all season and seeing her impaled over and over again all season long kinda was that anyway, lol).

But still, props.

[johntfs]

Personally, I think shows with racist fandoms should take every opportunity to troll the living shit out of them.

[phoenics]

15 hours ago, doram said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Misfits.

That aside, I completely agree with everything you've written here.

It's not really a question of being deliberately racist or not; and I don't really care about the "intentions" of the writers when the writing perpetuates harmful stereotypes and/or encourages a racist fandom which then generates this vicious cycle where the writing becomes more stereotypical as the fandom becomes more hateful.

I should have been more specific - that would be American TV.  British TV appears far more progressive in general, than American TV.

13 hours ago, johntfs said:

Personally, I think shows with racist fandoms should take every opportunity to troll the living shit out of them.

I agree with you.  Bringing up British TV again - the tv show "Merlin" once did that to racist fans with a "Take That" episode.

I imagine it would be SO FUN to troll the ever loving crap out of racist fandoms if I was a writer.  I'd find all kinds of creative ways to do it too.  Half the time they wouldn't even know they were being trolled.

[Grace19]

On 5/28/2017 at 11:21 PM, phoenics said:

I actually wasn't saying it was racism, but the poor writing perpetuates racism, whether the writers mean it to or not.  The writers' ignorance about race makes the poor writing even worse because it repeats harmful stereotypes and normalizes them in the writing.  It doesn't matter if they are intentionally being racist - harmful stereotypes still leaked into the fabric of society - that's still bad.  It normalizes the status quo - which is that the white female can berate the lead and it's okay, but the black female can never express any hurt or pain over being targeted and even then finding out the bad guy is a future version of her fiance?  For goodness sakes - Get Out, Iris, lol.  It's no consolation to me that they didn't MEAN to let that happen.

And if the issue was REALLY bad writing, then Caitlin wouldn't be the ONE character allowed to rail against Barry so hard and receive NO blowback from the fandom, whilst Iris (or her fam) never ever blamed Barry for being Savitar's target but is called selfish by the fandom.  Even Cisco got roasted and his brother died.  Caitlin gets this ridiculous powers=evil nonsense to absolve her of any blame and then the writers wipe that out in the finale, but still - she's still fine.  The writers aren't necessarily responsible for the racist reactions of the fandom, but they shouldn't cave to them either.

And it's pretty clear the writers know about the racist backlash Iris/CP and even CV/Cisco have gotten in the past - which is why they have turned Iris into a "perfect" girlfriend who never does anything wrong - in an attempt to protect her.  My point is more that if Iris can't have agency and a full range of real emotions, then DP's Caitlin shouldn't be allowed that either.  But since the writers have allowed that, then they know of the racial issues involved.

Which means they COULD do better.

The writing ignoring those very real racial outcomes is an issue.  It's not enough to be "not racist", in this society where racist fandoms take any excuse to be hateful to the first black female lead a comic tv show has ever had, writers need to be "anti racist" and stamp that mess out by not adding to stereotypes that show the white female character having agency to rail at the hero, while the black female LEAD character isn't allowed to be fully human or have 100% human emotions.

I don't care if the writers think they are "non racist".  I'm saying it's not enough. 

 

I just wish the writers would ignore the racist fans and just write a good realistic story for their characters. These people have already made up their minds to hate iris and Wally, (Joe gets a pass because his main purpose is to uplift Barry above his children) and nothing will change their minds. Shortchanging iris character development to please these people is never going to work, it will only make things worse.

I usually lurk around a comic book forum anytime I watch a superhero show or movie so as to understand the show and characters more, since I've never read a comic book.  You will be surprised at the number if people that wants Wally and Iris dead. A poster confronted them and said he/she was sure they would love for Iris and Wally to die and for Joe to be magical okay and not mourn them and just focus his attention on Barry. To my surprise, some of the posters admitted that they would be okay with that. Their reasons were that Wally is whiny and Iris makes Barry and joe make poor decisions and therefore deserves to die. Someone pointed out that you can't blame a woman for the mistakes men in her life make, but they still didn't care.

The funny thing is that, from the post history of the guy that blames iris for Barry and Joe's behaviors, I assumed he was a progressive guy as I have seen him defend female characters and actresses from misogyny. I guess feminism goes out the window when the character is black.

It pains me that these are the people the writers are trying to please. Comic book fans are not even the majority of the people that watch superhero shows or movies, they are the minority. The racist fans should not be validated, they deserve to be ignored.

[johntfs]

And again I say troll the shit of them.  Internet bullying justifies its existence by allowing us all to punish these people for being worthless excuses for human beings.

[phoenics]

18 hours ago, Grace19 said:

It pains me that these are the people the writers are trying to please. Comic book fans are not even the majority of the people that watch superhero shows or movies, they are the minority. The racist fans should not be validated, they deserve to be ignored.

I agree with johntfs - the writers should not only ignore their wants, they should troll the sh!t out of them in the writing as hard as possible.

[Scarlett45]

I caught up on this past season via Netflix and I have to say in the finale when Iris shot Savitar in the back before he could kill Barry I did kind of have a "hell yeah" moment. This man wanted to kill you, was going after the man you loved, and after having to be the "perfect girlfriend" with no sort of malice etc at the end enough was enough. Shoot him. Feel no guilt about it. Iris saved Barry- I really liked that in a "Black Girl Magic" kind of way. Enough is enough. 

[Trini]

Here's one author's response to Arrow planning a Black Lives Matter episode; but it also mentions The Flash's take on race:

Quote

... and I haven’t watched The Flash since season 2, for a variety of reasons. That said, both shows dance around the issue entirely, not even daring to broach it.

The Flash is perhaps the most baffling example of this, because it has spent its entire existence avoiding the implications of its white protagonist, Barry Allen, being adopted by a black family (the Wests). Which is ironic, really, because even though the The Flash has featured more POC in its main cast than probably all six seasons of Arrow, it fundamentally misunderstands race, proving that diverse characters without diverse creatives ring hollow.

Arrow, on the other hand, is far worse. While The Flash attempts to look the part, Arrow is unbothered. ...

The Flash has at least one black writer, I believe.

I really do appreciate that there are people of color in the regular cast, but it is sad and strange that they ignore race on the show. (The few mentions have rare, indirect, and subtle.) I get that they want to keep things "light" and not have "very special episodes", but it is kind of a big deal that the white, superhero lead has a Black family.

And it has crossed my mind whether the show will have any extended West family (even if it's background extras) at the upcoming wedding.

[ruby24]

I have also wondered about this occasionally. I understand on one level what they're trying to do, which is to cast people of color in these important roles with zero regard to race, not even a mention of it. And yet...I don't know, I mean, I understand not wanting to get into issues that you may not think have anything to do with a superhero show, but when you ignore it to this extreme (would Barry never have faced ANY comment from anyone his entire life about being a white kid adopted by a black family, to the point where it seems like he hasn't even realized it himself?), it calls attention to itself in a different way.

The interracial couples I know certainly don't ignore race altogether or never make any mention of it. I do sort of wish they would acknowledge it on the show somehow. And, it doesn't have to be the focus of a whole episode or anything like that, just some dialogue that acknowledges the reality of it. 

[Trini]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

About the villain.  I was struck in a slightly different way by her.  First the name - Becky.  Then by thinking of "luck" as privilege and looking at how she behaved once she knew SHE had all of the privilege/luck and everyone around her was now screwed.  She didn't care.  I don't know if the writers meant to write an analogy to how privilege works amongst the privileged, but damn.

According to this satire piece about "Becky"s, I think Hazard is closest to the first 'type' of "Becky".

Yeah, I don't think it was intentional, but the analogy is easily made.

[phoenics]

Just now, Trini said:

According to this satire piece about "Becky"s, I think Hazard is closest to the first 'type' of "Becky".

Yeah, I don't think it was intentional, but the analogy is easily made.

I'd have to go and look at the writers for this episode to see if they meant to make such a hard analogy there.  I mean - the name AND the privilege analogy?  That'd be a hilarious accident - almost Freudian.

[Trini]

6 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I'd have to go and look at the writers for this episode to see if they meant to make such a hard analogy there.  I mean - the name AND the privilege analogy?  That'd be a hilarious accident - almost Freudian.

The credited writers are Sam Chalsen and Judelina Niera. Chalsen probably not; Niera... maybe...??

[phoenics]

15 minutes ago, Trini said:

The credited writers are Sam Chalsen and Judelina Niera. Chalsen probably not; Niera... maybe...??

Based on her comments about representation in the writers room (specifically about Latinos) I could see her slipping in some stealth "privilege" lessons into the story in a way that some folks wouldn't even realize it...

http://www.nhmc.org/blog/latinos-writers-room-qa-judalina-neira-vh1s-hit-floor/

She says:  

Quote

 

NHMC: Why do you think it’s important for more Latinos to be in the writers room?

JN: Research is showing that programs that are more reflective of the diverse world we live in are more successful than shows that aren’t. But outside of the statistics of it all, I’ve found the Latino writers I meet are brimming with unique experiences, stories and characters that are a much welcome burst of flavor to an industry that can often feel insular and homogenous.

 

So maybe?  

And I just found out that Sam Chalsen wrote for Sleepy Hollow in 2014.  I think that was Season 1 - which could actually mean he snuck in the privilege analogy.  If he wrote any of the episodes in S1 part 1.  After that - unsure.

Edited October 26, 2017 by phoenics

[phoenics]

Bringing this over from the Wally West thread...

 

3 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

And because she's female.  Don't forget that one of the chief complaints in the Berlantiverse is that his shows tend to be a little testosterone-heavy (even Supergirl gets this complaint from time to time any time focus is pulled away from Kara and Alex).  Eliminating Caitlin in favor of keeping Wally would be seen as misogyny because she's one of only two female regular characters on a show that many people feel is already dominated by too many male characters at the expense of Iris. Thus, Wally is considered far more expendable than Caitlin, since he's essentially redundant while she isn't.  Race has nothing to do with it.

Hmmm... not if they bring back Linda Park - who has more right to be in the Flash Universe of characters than Caitlin.  She's the love interest of Wally West afterall.  Caitlin is the love interest of Ronnie - who is dead.  And every season they repeat the same tired storyline of Caitlin having a love interest with the random white male character they bring onboard for her - to justify her existence.  Then he's either a villain or whatever and then they kill him off or otherwise get rid of him.

If they'd spent that much time paying attention to the actual female lead of the show (Iris/CP) from the start than the self-insert Caitlin, we wouldn't be here.  The characters you absolutely must have for any real treatment of The Flash include Wally West and Iris West.  They don't include Caitlin.  She's irrelevant.  Even her KF storyline has been ridiculous.  They had to write her powers as making her "evil" because they wanted their cake and to eat it too.  They wrote a twisted up plot that makes no sense to justify Caitlin not being fully written off as evil KF - yet they couldn't imagine any scenarios for Wally West.  At all.

Ok.

Race, privilege and favoritism has everything to do with why Caitlin is still here and Wally and Linda aren't.

Keep in mind that Caitlin's screentime has NEVER been affected from season to season.  She's had consistent time - in S2A she had far more than Iris.  When they brought on another woman on the show - she ate into IRIS' screentime, not Caitlin's.

But sure.  That had nothing to do with race.

[johntfs]

45 minutes ago, doram said:

Well said. Well said indeed. She gets leading lady treatment... but because she's not an organic fit into this universe, it literally bends itself to accommodate her. That's why her story-lines never make any sense. She doesn't make sense, or at least the relevance the show pays to her doesn't make any sense. Switch the actresses playing Caitlin and Iris, and I bet you "Caitlin" would have been Killer Frost by the end of season 1 (and it would have been Evil All Along and not My Powers Made Me Do It), and killed off halfway through season 2. 

Maybe.  I'd like to think that Candice Patton's talent and charisma would have kept her on the show, maybe as Cisco's girlfriend or somesuch.

When The Flash started, Danielle Panabaker was probably the best-known actor on the show with maybe Jesse L. Martin (due to Law and Order fame) as the second best known.  While the leading lady roll should have gone to Candice Patton, in the first season it kind of went to Danielle in part because she was the bigger name.  That situation has been correcting over time and at this point it's pretty clear that Candice is very much the leading lady of the show.

But you know what?  You guys are right.  Race is very much a factor.  Non-Hispanic White people make up 63% of the US population.  If you include White Hispanic that number rises to 73% of the population.  People like to see people that look like them on TV.  Asian people (6%) like to see Asian people.  Black people(13%) like to see Black people.  Hispanic people(17%-27%) like to see Hispanic people.  And, yes, White people like to see White people.  And since White people represent the group with the most potential eyeballs to look at the screen (and the ads) they're going to get catered to the most, overall. 

[Trini]

4 hours ago, doram said:

Well said. Well said indeed. She gets leading lady treatment... but because she's not an organic fit into this universe, it literally bends itself to accommodate her. That's why her story-lines never make any sense. She doesn't make sense, or at least the relevance the show pays to her doesn't make any sense. ...

I disagree that Caitlin has been treated as the leading lady, even though there were times (especially in the first two seasons) where she got more screentime than Iris. She was mainly important only at STAR Labs (on par with Cisco as the Flash's support team), but not nearly as important to the lead's (Barry) narrative or the overall seasons' arc. In Season 3 she finally did get a significant arc that even tied into the Big Bad (which wasn't handled well, but that's another thread) but by then her screentime dropped.

I do think there's some favoritism involved; the showrunners clearly like Danielle/Caitlin/Killer Frost. And yeah, them trying to keep all three have caused story problems.
 

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

When The Flash started, Danielle Panabaker was probably the best-known actor on the show with maybe Jesse L. Martin (due to Law and Order fame) as the second best known.  While the leading lady roll should have gone to Candice Patton, in the first season it kind of went to Danielle in part because she was the bigger name.  That situation has been correcting over time and at this point it's pretty clear that Candice is very much the leading lady of the show.

Imma have to stop you right there - while Danielle has a longer resume than Candice (and race might play into that), there's no way she was more well-known than Cavanagh and Martin who have had major roles on major networks for many years. Grant, Candice, Danielle, and Carlos were pretty much all unknowns to me when I started the show. See above for why I don't think Danielle/Caitlin was ever the leading lady.

While the first half of Season 2 was the worst for Iris, she's always been the leading lady* because of her importance to the lead, and Candice's billing. And yes, they've done better with Iris/Candice lately - not great but much better.

*(Well, as much as she can be the leading lady on a show that has one lead, Barry.)
 

1 hour ago, doram said:

I firmly believe there was an unwritten plan to replace Iris/Candice as Barry's love interest at some point in time early in the show. What they didn't expect was how huge a hit The Flash would become. It went from The Arrow's spin-off show to TheCW's highest rated show. Suddenly they realized that they had stumbled on a winning formula - a winning formula that they might not have preferred --- but were smart enough to not "fix" what wasn't broken. I think the "Legend of Sleepy Hollow" (i.e. the legend of how to ruin a hit TV show because you're racist) also helped, too. 

This is probably an "agree to disagree" situation since we may never know for sure; but I don't think this is true. I can see that maybe for Season 2 if there were major problems with Iris/Candice or Patty had taken off, but in Season 1, they were pretty committed to that unrequited love story and the love triangle. It doesn't make sense to me that they'd plan a "replacement" when they made it a point to tie Iris closely to Barry from the start. They learned from Arrow's missteps.

[johntfs]

9 hours ago, doram said:

I firmly believe there was an unwritten plan to replace Iris/Candice as Barry's love interest at some point in time early in the show. What they didn't expect was how huge a hit The Flash would become. It went from The Arrow's spin-off show to TheCW's highest rated show. Suddenly they realized that they had stumbled on a winning formula - a winning formula that they might not have preferred --- but were smart enough to not "fix" what wasn't broken. I think the "Legend of Sleepy Hollow" (i.e. the legend of how to ruin a hit TV show because you're racist) also helped, too. 

I think it was more that there was an unwritten backup plan to replace Candice with somebody else but it was a plan swiftly shelved.  Honestly, looking back at The Flash and the Barry/Iris relationship and comparing it with, say, Oliver/Felicity, it feels much more like the show-runners were trying to "fast-forward" to this point in the Barry/Iris relationship.  Linda and Patty were "appetizer" love interests before the main event of Barry and Iris.  Both of them were gone by the middle of Season Two.  Barry's mother's death was fully settled at the end of the first episode of Season 3 (Yep, she's not just really dead, she's really, most sincerely dead).  Barry and Iris were engaged, had a "breakup" and were re-engaged right before he went into the speed force and right now at season Four the wedding is full speed ahead for November sweeps.  And all of that got done in 3.5 seasons, which is pretty damn fast for a network show.

[ruby24]

29 minutes ago, doram said:

That's apples and oranges. Oliver/Felicity were not set up as endgame. The show started with Oliver/Laurel as their pilot!otp and planned-endgame. On the other hand, Westallen was written (imo) in the pilot as something that as a Starter relationship.  They were definitely going to explore the relationship - you don't give your leading man a life-long crush and have him "lose" to the random supporting character - but I'm 90% sure they didn't plan a Westallen endgame. Their plan was to pull a Gwen Stacy or a Lana Lang. It's clearer in the marketing where Caitlin was a more prominent personality in the trailer for the show, and Iris's role being made smaller and smaller after the first half of season 1 (going back the usual rules of seasons being expanded after 12-eps with a show being ordered for 12-13 episodes, then given a full season after some weeks of broadcasting and its success can be evaluated). It's even more clearer when you think of behind-the-scenes decisions like ageing up Caitlin Snow and de-villianising her when she was clearly cast for the villain's role in the comics-thology.

But somewhere along the line, between concept and expansion - due to network interference, backlash, and/or some changes in the creative thinking, people got uncomfortable with giving Iris a prominent role and/or writing Westallen. So Iris's role was reduced and Westallen was kicked down the season until they decided to bite the bullet and do it. Almost certainly because the show had become so successful that they: a, decided that The Flash could "survive" the backlash of an interracial relationship, or more likely b,  saner minds prevailed and they realized that you don't mess with a winning formula. For some "inexplicable" reason, the Flash - the show then with the most racially diverse cast and a (potential) interracial OTP -  had risen to being the best show on TheCW lineup. They weren't going to make the same mistake Sleepy Hollow did earlier by killing a good show because they didn't agree with the leads being non-white. 

I guess I should ask this question in this thread.

Do you think they intentionally desexualize this relationship because they are an interracial couple? Because there is no doubt in my mind that they are treated as roommates, with a complete and total lack of physical intimacy that I have NEVER seen in any other main couple on this network, or on other shows. They're not allowed to kiss passionately, be shown in bed together, anything close to a sex or post-sex scene.

It's bizarre to me and I need to know why, because at this point it HAS to be intentional. Other couples would never be treated this way. Even Cisco and Gypsy (who barely get any screen time) get portrayed as sexual. 

[johntfs]

IIRC Andrew Kreisberg was running The Flash and Supergirl.  Supergirl saw the budding romance between Kara and James Olson get shit-canned into the "friend zone" while Barry and Iris still seem more like roomies and "friends from work" than a passionate newly married couple.  Maybe now that Kreisberg has been ousted we'll see some more PoC and affection-friendly changes to both shows.

I will note that mixed-race romances never seemed to be all that troubling for Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow.  Arrow has John married to Lyla and having a child together.  While the relationships on LoT (Ray and Kendra; Amaya and Nate) haven't maintained themselves (Kendra was destined to be chained forever to a controlling asshole of a bird person while Amaya apparently prefers men who are actually men instead of needy overgrown frat-bros) it wasn't due to any kind of racial situation.

[wingster55]

23 hours ago, johntfs said:

Arrow has John married to Lyla and having a child together. 

Yes, but Lyla's a massively underused character on Arrow. Plus it is different when the minority in the relationship is the male. 

[johntfs]

48 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

Yes, but Lyla's a massively underused character on Arrow. Plus it is different when the minority in the relationship is the male. 

It's definitely different in a good way on Legends of Tomorrow.  There are three female regulars, Sara (white and bisexual), Amaya (African-American) and Zari (Middle-eastern).  All of them are kick-ass awesome and to be respected on pain of getting one's ass kicked by them.  As far as I'm concerned, if The Flash can't write for the coolness of Candice Patton, I'd be happy to see her come aboard the Waverider.

[BaggythePanther]

On 12/15/2017 at 3:46 PM, ruby24 said:

I guess I should ask this question in this thread.

Do you think they intentionally desexualize this relationship because they are an interracial couple? Because there is no doubt in my mind that they are treated as roommates, with a complete and total lack of physical intimacy that I have NEVER seen in any other main couple on this network, or on other shows. They're not allowed to kiss passionately, be shown in bed together, anything close to a sex or post-sex scene.

It's bizarre to me and I need to know why, because at this point it HAS to be intentional. Other couples would never be treated this way. Even Cisco and Gypsy (who barely get any screen time) get portrayed as sexual. 

It’s been awhile since I’ve watched the first season but I feel like Iris and Eddie had scenes that were more intimate. I wonder if there were any comments or backlash which could be affecting how they’re portraying Iris and Barry now.

[johntfs]

23 minutes ago, BaggythePanther said:

It’s been awhile since I’ve watched the first season but I feel like Iris and Eddie had scenes that were more intimate. I wonder if there were any comments or backlash which could be affecting how they’re portraying Iris and Barry now.

In the first season they had Barry start to get intimate with Linda Park but that got aborted.  In the second they show him in bed with Patty after sex.  Beyond those two incidents we've never really seen Barry get "hot and heavy" with anyone that I can recall.  Maybe this is more a thing where Grant Gustin is just really uncomfortable doing intimate scenes, so they just don't do intimate scenes with him.

[Trini]

On 12/15/2017 at 4:12 PM, doram said:

On the other hand, Westallen was written (imo) in the pilot as something that as a Starter relationship.  They were definitely going to explore the relationship - you don't give your leading man a life-long crush and have him "lose" to the random supporting character - but I'm 90% sure they didn't plan a Westallen endgame. Their plan was to pull a Gwen Stacy or a Lana Lang.

On 12/15/2017 at 4:12 PM, doram said:

But somewhere along the line, between concept and expansion - due to network interference, backlash, and/or some changes in the creative thinking, people got uncomfortable with giving Iris a prominent role and/or writing Westallen. ... They weren't going to make the same mistake Sleepy Hollow did earlier by killing a good show because they didn't agree with the leads being non-white. 

So you think Iris was always going to be shelved at some point? I really don't see how that could be true. (If anything, I think they learned from the mistakes of Arrow, so they wouldn't have to bring in a new 'endgame' later.) They tied Barry closely to Iris/the Wests from the beginning; I'm not sure how the show would survive reversing that. If they were going to do WestAllen and drop it later anyway, they would would have got Barry and Iris together sooner and not bothered with Patty.

Things did look dire for WestAllen in Season 2, but by the time "Runaway Dinosaur" came out (or even earlier with the Earth-2 episodes) to me it seemed clear that was the the pairing they really wanted to do.

[Trini]

On 12/15/2017 at 4:46 PM, ruby24 said:

I guess I should ask this question in this thread.Do you think they intentionally desexualize this relationship because they are an interracial couple?

They could have more 'sexy' on the show (Barry vibrates; this doesn't get talked about enough!), but I don't think it's necessarily because of race. From the start, they've only had like two sex-related scenes per season, while being "PG" the rest of the time. (I mean, in the Cisco/Cynthia scene earlier this season she's actually straddling him, but they shot them from the shoulders up....)
 

Quote

Because there is no doubt in my mind that they are treated as roommates, with a complete and total lack of physical intimacy that I have NEVER seen in any other main couple on this network, or on other shows. They're not allowed to kiss passionately, be shown in bed together, anything close to a sex or post-sex scene.

It's bizarre to me and I need to know why, because at this point it HAS to be intentional. Other couples would never be treated this way. Even Cisco and Gypsy (who barely get any screen time) get portrayed as sexual. 

It's not that bad. But I have seen other main couples get less intimate scenes than Bary & Iris, though. (And it suuucked.) It depends on the priorities of the writers/etc.

 

10 hours ago, johntfs said:

... Maybe this is more a thing where Grant Gustin is just really uncomfortable doing intimate scenes, so they just don't do intimate scenes with him.

I hate blaming the actors, because I think Grant and Candice have shown they can 'bring it' when they need to; I just don't think they bother to write those scenes most of the time. Or they think implications are enough. I don't know why.

[johntfs]

8 hours ago, Trini said:

I hate blaming the actors, because I think Grant and Candice have shown they can 'bring it' when they need to; I just don't think they bother to write those scenes most of the time. Or they think implications are enough. I don't know why.

Implications are enough for me.  Barry and Iris are adults.  They love each other.  They're having sex.  I don't need to see it to believe it just like I don't need to see them eat, sleep or take dumps in the toilet.

I know how bedroom/sex scenes work.  It's probably the absolute least romantic thing anyone can do.  I'm assuming you, Trini, are female.  So, think of a situation where you and some guy you know from work are in bed together in your underwear (or maybe just in pasties) surrounded by lights, cameras, microphones and 50 other people watching you.  Sure it's the actors' jobs to do that when the script calls for it just like it's a janitors job to mop up piss, shit and vomit in the bathroom, but it's not he's super pumped and happy about that part of his job.

Edited December 18, 2017 by johntfs

[GHScorpiosRule]

But Iris is more like Lois Lane, than Lana Lang. If you're going to compare Barry and Iris to Clark and Lois. Because that's who Clark's true love is. Lana was just his girlfriend from high school; though the Show Smallville had it that she was his one and only and draaaaged that sucker out, is contradictory to comic canon. Hell, Lois is sloppy seconds in that show if you think about it--Clark only turned to Lois because Lana was now, literally his Kryptonite, because she was filled with Kryptonite. As for Barry and Linda? That was icky to me, because again, in comics, Linda Park is Wally's girlfriend/wife. 

And they draaaged the will they/won't they with Clark and Lois for six seasons. They didn't actually start to date until the final season.

Edited December 18, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[Trini]

2 hours ago, doram said:

I definitely agree that there was no way with the family dynamics that the show could reverse Westallen so I think they planned for a Gwen Stacy or Lana Lang exit. She was either going to die off shortly after they go together or they were going to find some way to send her away for good, while still "holding Barry's heart."

We'll have to agree to disagree, because I've never seen anything to suggest TPTB planned to kill her off; especially in Season 1.

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But Iris is more like Lois Lane, than Lana Lang. If you're going to compare Barry and Iris to Clark and Lois. Because that's who Clark's true love is. ...

... Plus this. The show has tended to draw inspiration from the comics, so I don't see them deliberately planning to be rid of the hero's true love. Especially with an A-list character.

 

Quote

Yeah, and this is where I'm quite certain that their heart wasn't in Westallen. When writers want a couple together, they don't drag it out. I don't mean the actual getting-together milestone, I mean they keep the "will they/won't they" strong and present in the show. Season 2A didn't have a will-they/won't-they. Barry/Patty was the ideal time to have Iris catching feels and basically being Barry when she was dating Eddie. It was the time for Barry to also show some wistfulness towards her, showing that even though Patty made him "happy", there was still "something about Iris." If you've watched FRIENDS, you'll know what I mean. Instead, they shut Westallen down. Patty called Iris his sister! LOL. 

OH yes they do. Not always, but most times, especially when it's a TV show without an end date.

But I (and many others) agree that the writers dropped the ball with the WestAllen relationship in the first half of Season 2. (Then there's the general problem of them not being able to write more than one woman at a time.) They did have Barry describe Patty as "not Iris", so there's that.
 

3 hours ago, doram said:

... It was clear at that point that the producers were resigned to doing Westallen. Not excited or eager or anticipatory about finally delivering on their show's OTP. Just committed to ticking that item off their checklist. 

Again this seems a 'mileage varies' situation. I wouldn't say they were "resigned" when they'd been planning to get them together from the start, and the amount of focus on the relationship in the following season.

 

3 hours ago, johntfs said:

... but it's not he's super pumped and happy about that part of his job.

Source for that? Grant's a good actor, and he manages to work with all the stuff they throw at him; I don't think he's balking at this one thing. With statements from producers, directors, casting agents, and the actors themselves about how well Grant and Candice work together, I'd rather place the blame higher up.

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, doram said:

Not by my observance. They might take time getting the couple together officially, but they never go through the kind of Drought that they put Westallen through in the early half of season 2. TV shows never really "settle" a couple. There'll always be obstacles, and triangles and miscommunication to amp up drama --- but they won't put their story on ice.

Replying to you in the Relationships: Speed Dating thread.

Edited December 19, 2017 by johntfs

[tofutan]

Quote

Yeah, and this is where I'm quite certain that their heart wasn't in Westallen. When writers want a couple together, they don't drag it out. I don't mean the actual getting-together milestone, I mean they keep the "will they/won't they" strong and present in the show. Season 2A didn't have a will-they/won't-they. Barry/Patty was the ideal time to have Iris catching feels and basically being Barry when she was dating Eddie. It was the time for Barry to also show some wistfulness towards her, showing that even though Patty made him "happy", there was still "something about Iris." If you've watched FRIENDS, you'll know what I mean. Instead, they shut Westallen down. Patty called Iris his sister! LOL. 

I really disagree with this. Smallville being the perfect example. The writers were clearly feeling Clark and Lana and it still took a long time for the characters to actually have sex. And the writers kept throwing new third party after new third party at them. 

Clark and Lois also took time, and that wasn't an interracial couple. 

Not to mention shows that are built around will they won't they dynamics like Bones. 

I would actually argue the opposite, from the writers point of view, it makes sense to space things out so they don't run out of things to do (many writers are notoriously bad at writing happy couples). This is one of the most fundamental differences between fans and writers. Fans immediately insist that there is tons of storyline potential for established and committed couples, but many writers still clearly don't feel the same way. Many shipping minded fans wouldn't mind a show about their favorite couple just sitting around being cutesy with each other, but again, this seems to go against the grain of how many writers feel, even if they like a couple. 

So for a lot of writers, they might approach relationships more as "start fast, burn out fast". 

We will see how Kreisberg's exit affects the situation, but imo Westallen taking their time and getting dumb obstacles thrown at them to me is not an indicator that the writers were not serious about them. 

Kara/Mon-El to me is a special case. He was retroactively added to the show. He isn't part of the natural framework of the show that was set up in season 1, so imo they had to up the ante and the speed to give him "weight" on the show because he doesn't have a natural place and support system in the show. Iris support system prior to her joining Team Flash more officially might often been crap and underplayed (the journalism angle) but it is still there. Even if Iris and Barry were to break up, Iris is "baked into the show" via Joe. Compared to that Mon-El didn't have any meaningful stable relationships of his own that's why the breakup didn't "stick". Because Mon-El is too loosely connected to the canvas when he is not dating Kara (or at the very least Kara is mooning over him). 

Like people here said, if Iris was always meant to die or disappear somehow, it would have made more sense for Westallen to get together quickly. IMO promotion and writing is not the same thing. The CW is responsible for promotion from what people have said, not the show itself. IMO in the writing Westallen always had these "supercouple" signifiers (like Iris being the one being able to motivate him or pulling him out of the speedforce) that imo you wouldn't give to a starter relationship. I think the show always wanted Westallen. Maybe they were temporary tempted by Patty, but I don't buy that they ever genuinely considered Caitlin. Screentime or no, to me that just isn't backed up by the show's text. 

IMO the writers of Flash always intended Westallen as a fixture, they just happen to visualize a more boring, chaste version (potentially due to subconcious racism) of them as their ideal than the fans do. I also think that calling them room mates is not  a fair assessment of what we are shown. IMO they still come across as a loving couple but clearly as a couple where love has a higher priority than sex, via the interpretation of the writers, so that is what they focus on. To me that love that they portray doesn't give me either a siblings or just friends or buddies vibe. Which doesn't mean that it isn't unfair that the writers and-or directors are failing to portray sex as a natural part of that love rather than it being an either-or situation. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by tofutan

[ruby24]

1 hour ago, tofutan said:

Which doesn't mean that it isn't unfair that the writers and-or directors are failing to portray sex as a natural part of that love rather than it being an either-or situation. 

This is my point entirely. I can't understand it.

[tofutan]

I just happen to think that it's both possible for the writers to really do see Westallen as THAT couple, but still not see them in a particularly sexual way. I think the writers see them as the ultimate thing, while also seeing them as super wholesome. It is possible to be subconciously racist in that way while still not being racist in the way that they don't see Iris as THE WOMAN for Barry. 

Kind of like you might have somebody who if you asked them would insist that they really love let's say a native american or latina character while still falling into the racist trap of oversexualizing them (ie the way Pocahontas and Esmeralda were a lot more physically "grown up" in the Disney movies compared to let's say Arielle or Belle). [of course it's also possible that past season 1 not sexual is the show's default and Cisco/Cynthia are the aberration in the other way, because of oversexualization of "racy" gypsy rather than them being proof that Westallen are aberrant compared to the other couples on Flash]

I just don't buy that the show ever genuinely wavered on Westallen in favor of Caitlin. These shows are written by men from the male point of view. They like writing stories where the men are the pursuers who "win" their target. So Barry showing no interest in Caitlin doesn't fit their perception of the world. If he's not into her, then he's not into her. The only reason why Olicity got to grow past that was a long and stony road with TONS of fan pressure. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by tofutan

[ruby24]

To never show them in bed together, to never let them kiss longer than a split second...I don't know, I think it's extremely noticeable and very odd. 

[Trini]

12 hours ago, tofutan said:

Like people here said, if Iris was always meant to die or disappear somehow, it would have made more sense for Westallen to get together quickly. IMO promotion and writing is not the same thing. The CW is responsible for promotion from what people have said, not the show itself. IMO in the writing Westallen always had these "supercouple" signifiers (like Iris being the one being able to motivate him or pulling him out of the speedforce) that imo you wouldn't give to a starter relationship. I think the show always wanted Westallen. Maybe they were temporary tempted by Patty, but I don't buy that they ever genuinely considered Caitlin. Screentime or no, to me that just isn't backed up by the show's text. 

IMO the writers of Flash always intended Westallen as a fixture, they just happen to visualize a more boring, chaste version (potentially due to subconcious racism) of them as their ideal than the fans do. I also think that calling them room mates is not  a fair assessment of what we are shown. IMO they still come across as a loving couple but clearly as a couple where love has a higher priority than sex, via the interpretation of the writers, so that is what they focus on. To me that love that they portray doesn't give me either a siblings or just friends or buddies vibe. Which doesn't mean that it isn't unfair that the writers and-or directors are failing to portray sex as a natural part of that love rather than it being an either-or situation. 

Agreed! I think an issue is that while they are interested in 'WestAllen' they are less interested/skilled in writing Iris - which has been pointed out numerous times in this forum so I won't go into a rant here. But could also be related to how the shows sucks at writing women in general, since Caitlin* has been screwed over several times too.

*(and Linda and Patty in some ways, now that I think about it)

 

10 hours ago, ruby24 said:

To never show them in bed together, to never let them kiss longer than a split second...I don't know, I think it's extremely noticeable and very odd. 

They're fairly chaste by CW standards, but this isn't true.

[tofutan]

Quote

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about how long it takes a couple to have sex. To quote myself:

I don't know whether it was you or not, but people were specifically mentioning the number of episodes it took Kara and Mon-El or Stefan and Elena to have sex, or that Oliver and Laurel still had sex within the first season. Indicating that if the writers were truly passionate about Westallen they would have had sex or become a couple more quickly, most like the half a season it took Karamel or Stelena. 

I disagree with this, that's why I mentioned some other couples where it took considerably longer. 

I also think that it's possible for writers to be serious about a couple without being particularly passionate. There could still be writers on Flash who see Westallen as a fixture and as every other couple as being clearly below them, but they don't viscerally yearn for them in a way that makes them want to write about them having sex as soon as possible. And even in those cases where writers are passionate, like in my eyes it clearly was the case with Lana on Smallville, they might still have various reasons to take their time. 

I think it is very clear that Flash is very warped around Barry. And that the writers clearly care more about the Barry part of Westallen than the Iris part. It's not that unusual for some writers to write from the perspective of the male character and treat the love interest as a goal to be achieved rather than a person and only do the bare minimum to paint characterization for the woman. 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, tofutan said:

I think it is very clear that Flash is very warped around Barry. And that the writers clearly care more about the Barry part of Westallen than the Iris part. It's not that unusual for some writers to write from the perspective of the male character and treat the love interest as a goal to be achieved rather than a person and only do the bare minimum to paint characterization for the woman. 

See, this for me.  I doubt anything would have changed in the writing had Iris been White.  Hell, exchange races between Patty and Iris, and figure many voices on this forum would be shitting on Iris and championing Patty/Barry, talking about how Barry used women of color for sex before dropping them to be with his one true White girl.

I've been watching Jessica Jones with the villain Kilgrave.  Kilgrave generally views himself as the only real human being with everyone else as ultimately disposable tools.  It sometimes feel that thats how the writer view Barry on this show.

[Kate45]

4 hours ago, tofutan said:

I think it is very clear that Flash is very warped around Barry. And that the writers clearly care more about the Barry part of Westallen than the Iris part. It's not that unusual for some writers to write from the perspective of the male character and treat the love interest as a goal to be achieved rather than a person and only do the bare minimum to paint characterization for the woman. 

I agree with the to an extent. Barry is the clear star of the show, and all storylines lead back to Barry. The one exception (it was two until 4x09 showed that Amunet is actually connected to Devoe in some way) was the storyline of Iris and her mother returning. The writers did an extremely poor job with that story as a result.  

But, I wouldn't say the writers don't care about Iris or even that they care much less about Iris than Barry. I think the writers don't want additional hate to be thrown at Iris from the fandom, and how they do that is to make her a near perfect character. Honestly, no one on this show is more selfLESS than she is. Here are some examples: she never blamed Barry for her life being in danger. She didn't even question why some version of Barry would want to kill her. She didn't ask Caitlin/KF for an apology for trying to kill her last year. She went out of her way to help KF when she was in trouble with Amunet. She stopped looking for her husband to help save Caitlin. She took up this leader role to preserve Barry's legacy as The Flash. 

All she does is put herself last, and it makes her a very selfless person. However, that doesn't stop people from hating her. But, I think they overcompensate to make Iris a likable character. They wouldn't do that if they didn't care about her. At least, that's what I think.

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

I agree with the to an extent. Barry is the clear star of the show, and all storylines lead back to Barry. The one exception (it was two until 4x09 showed that Amunet is actually connected to Devoe in some way) was the storyline of Iris and her mother returning. The writers did an extremely poor job with that story as a result.  

But, I wouldn't say the writers don't care about Iris or even that they care much less about Iris than Barry. I think the writers don't want additional hate to be thrown at Iris from the fandom, and how they do that is to make her a near perfect character. Honestly, no one on this show is more selfLESS than she is. Here are some examples: she never blamed Barry for her life being in danger. She didn't even question why some version of Barry would want to kill her. She didn't ask Caitlin/KF for an apology for trying to kill her last year. She went out of her way to help KF when she was in trouble with Amunet. She stopped looking for her husband to help save Caitlin. She took up this leader role to preserve Barry's legacy as The Flash. 

All she does is put herself last, and it makes her a very selfless person. However, that doesn't stop people from hating her. But, I think they overcompensate to make Iris a likable character. They wouldn't do that if they didn't care about her. At least, that's what I think.

I agree with this. In S1 the writers tried to write a more "human" Iris, giving her flaws along with her perfection. They allowed her to make mistakes and do things that were not always right. And the backlash for those minors flaws were bad. Barry was giving a pass for every shit he did and he did a lot during the Eddie/Iris relationship. But Iris was crucified for any little thing she did by the fandom. Iris couldn't do anything right in the eyes of the fandom. 

 

Even now, fans are claiming that Barry shouldn't be with Iris and Iris doesn't deserve Barry because she is too "self-fish and self-center". That Caitlin/ Felicity/Patty/Kara are more deserving of Barry. That they can't ship Barry in an "abusive"relationship with Iris,  cause Iris is abusive towards him. So even with the writers writing Iris as near to perfection as possible,  there are a lot of people in the fandom who still see Iris as the worst human being on the show.

 

With that said, as someone who loves Iris, I wish the writers would write for Iris as a full human being with flaws. I wish the writers would allow her to express her emotions more and not just accept and forgive every shit that other characters does to her. I know that would mean her getting more hate, but I don't care, cause it's clear that some will always hate Iris no matter what. That this hatred is not about how the character is written but those fans personally feelings. So forget them. 

[BkWurm1]

On 12/15/2017 at 3:12 PM, doram said:

That's apples and oranges. Oliver/Felicity were not set up as endgame. The show started with Oliver/Laurel as their pilot!otp and planned-endgame. On the other hand, Westallen was written (imo) in the pilot as something that as a Starter relationship.  They were definitely going to explore the relationship - you don't give your leading man a life-long crush and have him "lose" to the random supporting character - but I'm 90% sure they didn't plan a Westallen endgame. Their plan was to pull a Gwen Stacy or a Lana Lang. It's clearer in the marketing where Caitlin was a more prominent personality in the trailer for the show, and Iris's role being made smaller and smaller after the first half of season 1 (going back the usual rules of seasons being expanded after 12-eps with a show being ordered for 12-13 episodes, then given a full season after some weeks of broadcasting and its success can be evaluated). It's even more clearer when you think of behind-the-scenes decisions like ageing up Caitlin Snow and de-villianising her when she was clearly cast for the villain's role in the comics-thology.

But somewhere along the line, between concept and expansion - due to network interference, backlash, and/or some changes in the creative thinking, people got uncomfortable with giving Iris a prominent role and/or writing Westallen. So Iris's role was reduced and Westallen was kicked down the season until they decided to bite the bullet and do it. Almost certainly because the show had become so successful that they: a, decided that The Flash could "survive" the backlash of an interracial relationship, or more likely b,  saner minds prevailed and they realized that you don't mess with a winning formula. For some "inexplicable" reason, the Flash - the show then with the most racially diverse cast and a (potential) interracial OTP -  had risen to being the best show on TheCW lineup. They weren't going to make the same mistake Sleepy Hollow did earlier by killing a good show because they didn't agree with the leads being non-white. 

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The initial trailers for the show did show Caitlin more than Iris and I went into the show thinking they'd went and set up another situation where the audience was going to root for the wrong girl but then in watching the actual show, it came off very differently.  I knew and liked DP from other stuff so I sort of rooted for her a bit longer but the show just didn't go that way at all IMO.  It did though shoot itself in the foot because I started shipping Iris and Eddie and Barry with no one.    But even then I had zero doubt that Iris and Barry were the long term endgame.  

On 12/15/2017 at 5:21 PM, doram said:

Yes, I do. (Translation: "well---duh" ? ). As evidenced in season 3, the showrunners would rather write an arc that has Iris being depicted as being impaled by her fiance over and over and over again than write a pseudo-love scene between Westallen.

It's also worth pointing out how speedily, Karamel happened - in the space of half a season to fall into bed  - compared to how it took a whole season for Karolsen to have a "I like you"/"I like you too" moment. 

Kara and James vs Kara and Mon-el really aren't a fair comparison though since one was going at the pace that CBS set aka glacial vs the CW. 

And while I'm not a fan of Mon-el, I also agreed they needed to do something with James and Kara.  It started so well and then they wrote James so poorly (being with Lucy but pining for Kara and being unfair to both of them so that he came out looking bad) the shine just went away. I think they could have built it back up but I was all for the hard pause (well, I thought it was a pause at the time) that came at the start of season 2.   

On 12/18/2017 at 11:38 AM, doram said:

I definitely agree that there was no way with the family dynamics that the show could reverse Westallen so I think they planned for a Gwen Stacy or Lana Lang exit. She was either going to die off shortly after they go together or they were going to find some way to send her away for good, while still "holding Barry's heart."

If they were going to do WestAllen and drop it later anyway, they would would have got Barry and Iris together sooner and not bothered with Patty.

Yeah, and this is where I'm quite certain that their heart wasn't in Westallen. When writers want a couple together, they don't drag it out. I don't mean the actual getting-together milestone, I mean they keep the "will they/won't they" strong and present in the show. Season 2A didn't have a will-they/won't-they. Barry/Patty was the ideal time to have Iris catching feels and basically being Barry when she was dating Eddie. It was the time for Barry to also show some wistfulness towards her, showing that even though Patty made him "happy", there was still "something about Iris." If you've watched FRIENDS, you'll know what I mean. Instead, they shut Westallen down. Patty called Iris his sister! LOL. 

There was an enthusiasm for Westallen that was present in the first 12 episodes of season 1 that has simply not been repeated since then. Barry's pining and peevish attitude towards Iris/Eddie --- then Iris's pining and peevish attitude towards Linda/Barry... After the break, you could literally seeing them shifting into reverse gear. The Kiss was erased, yes, but apparently so did Iris's feelings for Barry. Eddie punches Barry - and the antagonism is resolved in the same episode in the most sit-comish way possible with no fallout. Barry seems to have moved on completely from Iris, to the effect that Eddie ends up being on Team Barry. It's also telling that in the narrative structure, Iris gets more and more isolated from the main story. Her connection to the Wells story was Mason Bridges - and he's killed off, as well as Iris's connection to the main plot. Her not-knowing Barry's secret becomes less of a poignant struggle for him and more of a running joke.

My theory was that Westallen was going to be a Starter Romance for season 1, with Iris and Barry getting together in the second half of season 1 through first half of season 2 (remember Eddie was originally conceptualized as a villain) but they got cold feet. They anticipated some backlash to Iris - they didn't anticipate how much. There might have also been executive meddling, and some writer-room shake-ups. Whatever the case was, they decided to dial back on Westallen, and see if Spivot, another canon love interest of Barry's, would catch fire with the audience. 

 

I agree. And there was also a shift there - with the Earth-2 episodes being the first few episodes after the break, followed shortly by the "Back in time" episode where Iris is finally shown to mourn Eddie and abruptly close the chapter on him. Iris half-heartedly dates, Barry gets jealous (but not as visibly as in season 1) and both decide to "give this thing a trial" in the most lack-lustrey way possible. It was clear at that point that the producers were resigned to doing Westallen. Not excited or eager or anticipatory about finally delivering on their show's OTP. Just committed to ticking that item off their checklist. 

 

I'm not sure if this means anything. Once again, I'm judging from the first 12 episodes of the show and how they originally imagined their show before audience feedback/network-meddling and writer shake-ups. There was a sexy Iris/Eddie scene in episode 4. The Flash/Iris were written with a lot of sexual tension in their first interaction. Like "rip of clothes/shag against the wall" tension, and Eddie's envy towards the Flash was un-ambiguous sexual jealousy. Barry/Linda had a hot makeout scene on Joe's couch where he vibrated. Yes, the show did want to make something out of that.

If the show due to "outside factors" decided to dial back on sexytimes, it wasn't because they never wanted sexy-times. It was because they needed to set up boundaries on how much sexytimes their interracial OTP would have to engage in. How much interracial sexytimes that: their audience will be comfortable with, their network wanted to project as their image (TheCW being notoriously anti-black), their frenzy fandom would accept (it's easier to crop Iris out, and insert Caitlin into Wetallen shots if she's not constantly draped over Barry).

Mmmm... you sure about that? :P

14

Two things.  Getting Barry and Iris together in 2A would have been the worst time because Iris was in mourning for Eddie.  If they got together, it would have seemed like a rebound relationship for her.  They had to give her time and  eventually some final closure on that when Barry was able to go back in time and get that message to Iris from Eddie that he then could give her.  In the mean time, Barry got to date someone else.  I honestly think the main reason he did was so they could prove he wasn't a virgin, lol.  It was I'm sure them balancing Iris and Barry.  Each getting a real relationship before they got together.  They did the same thing on Arrow with tossing Ray at Felicity before she and Oliver actually got serious.  And then gave her Billy for a bit so that they could toss Susan at Oliver.  They stayed balanced in the romance department.  

Which brings me to the second thing which is while it IMO makes for much better writing to make it clear when temporary relationships are just temporary, I've noticed that it's pretty common for dramas to now play the ship stalls very straight, as if they have real potential for happily ever after.  They did it with Ray for a couple episode, they did it with Billy sort of (though half heartedly) and the same with Oliver and Susan.  Right now on Supergirl, Mon-El looks like he's completely over Kara and only in love with his wife.  Having watched oodles of television I'm sure it won't stay that way much longer than Felicity remembered Billy after he died or Oliver thought about Susan after he rescued her and then broke up with her (so he could be ready to get back with Felicity). 

It was the same with Eddie and Iris.  The show played that as true love even though I'm sure they knew he was dying when they hired him.  So having Barry seem truly interested in Patty even though she was just a stall, is par for the course.   

As for why they don't show very sexy scenes since the first season, I think they show runners just paid attention to their demographics, realized a LOT of kids and families were watching and wrote to that audience.  So not sexy times in the bedroom anymore.  Even the Cisco/Gypsy scene was pretty tame. 

Quote

Even now, fans are claiming that Barry shouldn't be with Iris and Iris doesn't deserve Barry because she is too "self-fish and self-center". That Caitlin/ Felicity/Patty/Kara are more deserving of Barry. That they can't ship Barry in an "abusive"relationship with Iris,  cause Iris is abusive towards him. So even with the writers writing Iris as near to perfection as possible,  there are a lot of people in the fandom who still see Iris as the worst human being on the show.

Just curious, where are you seeing this?  I've never heard it in regard to Iris.  I thought Felicity was the only one accused of abusing her man, lol.  

[johntfs]

33 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

Iris doesn't deserve Barry

For my part, I don't think Iris deserves Barry either, much in the same way I don't think she deserves AIDS or anal warts.

[SevenStars]

23 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

Just curious, where are you seeing this?  I've never heard it in regard to Iris.  I thought Felicity was the only one accused of abusing her man, lol.  

On Tumblr. It's seems to be a common theme from people who hates Iris. And base on how the writers have been writing Iris, I was really surprise to see it posted and have so much like and reblogs.